Feature Request: Make calendar view a development priority

[msL]

"- Will consider a way to see tasks in a calendar view (did not
decide
the implementation details yet) "

Don't know how serious you take the calendar view request. I think you
should make it one of the highest priorities. Seems like this is
something a lot of users want.

[jamezzz]

I'll second this! I know Andrey has to balance priorities based on
much more than my input, but I, for one, would love to see this pushed
up in priority after completing the iPhone implementation of MLO. I
have wanted to see a calendar view in MLO for years. I've read many
of the arguments for and against the idea of a calendar view and the
fears that it will take MLO in a direction some folks don't want. But
to me a calendar view is simply an invaluable planning tool. Just
another view of the data I ALREADY have in MLO, but a view that helps
me immensely in planning my weeks out. Currently, during planning
sessions I refer to and duplicate appointments and dated events in
gCal. I'd just wish I could move this view to MLO eliminating the
overhead of duplicating dated tasks in another tool.

I know Outlook is an option, but I don't own, nor do I want to buy and
install Outlook for this one view.

Keep up the great work Andrey and team....looking forward to the
iPhone app!! Actually, would love to see more screenshots of the
iPhone app given it's still a ways off!!

[scoobie]

I hope we can export / sync tasks to gmail calander too or import
google calender
I don't want multiple calenders but I do want to be able to move my
tasks around on a calendar to plan my days

See this article on scheduling your work.
http://lifehacker.com/5657222/schedule-your-work-to-avoid-a-calendar-choked-with-interruptions

[Neal]

"no battle plan survives contact with the enemy" is a military expression that seems fitting to describe work plans.  Every book I have read on the subject of "putting tasks into a calendar" tries very hard to discourage it.  It simply lacks flexibility.

As such its hard to figure out what to suggest here.  Most "schedule techniques" talk about scheduling work time, not scheduling specific tasks.

And as we have said before, the way MLO was implemented makes if really hard to add that feature.

To me if you really want to put tasks into a calendar format I would suggest you try and get into the scrybe beta program.  In that way you could maybe influence them to better integrate their calendar with a product like MLO. 

I think those two products working together could give you the best implementation of what you are trying to do.  Basically, I just don't see MLO ever being re-implemented to have the features of a product like scrybe...

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 1:08 PM, scoobie <paulphilli...@gmail.com> wrote:

I hope we can export / sync tasks to gmail calendar too or import

google calender
I don't want multiple calenders but I do want to be able to move my
tasks around on a calendar to plan my days

See this article on scheduling your work.
http://lifehacker.com/5657222/schedule-your-work-to-avoid-a-calendar-choked-with-interruptions

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[jamezzz]

I agree, tasks should not go on a calendar, but my MLO outlines are
mix of tasks, appointments, events. I even use portions of my outline
for reference material. Tasks I deal with using priority fields and
goals (Week, Month, Year). But the appointments, dated events and
tasks with hard due dates I really like to see on a calendar. Seeing
them in a calendar allows me see the blocks of time that I have
available to block out for actual work. And if some folks do not use
a calendar or it doesn't fit their work flow they could easily ignore
that view. However, it seems there are alot of MLO customers who
would really like to see calendar view and have for some time.

I've been signed up on the Scrybe beta for years and I've also seen
zero changes to Scrybe in years. Even if Scrybe released a new
version I'd pass at this point based on their management of that beta
and lack of updates in the past. MLO and Toodledo have an excellent
reputation for continuous improvements to their products which speaks
volumes to a customer like me. Remember the Milk is fairly response
to their customer base, but not compared to MLO or Toodledo. I've
bounced around MLO, RTM, Toodledo and Lifebalance for years, but keep
coming back to MLO. The only thing that keeps drawing me away is a
good mobile solution which I'm hopeful MLO will nail with their
upcoming iPhone release. Lifebalance had an okay calendar and
Toodledo's calendar is definitely lacking, so calendars in apps like
MLO are not unheard of.

Anyhow, it just a customer request...can't fault a customer asking!

On Oct 8, 8:37 am, Neal <nschm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "no battle plan survives contact with the enemy" is a military expression
> that seems fitting to describe work plans.  Every book I have read on the
> subject of "putting tasks into a calendar" tries very hard to discourage
> it.  It simply lacks flexibility.
>
> As such its hard to figure out what to suggest here.  Most "schedule
> techniques" talk about scheduling work time, not scheduling specific tasks.
>
> And as we have said before, the way MLO was implemented makes if really hard
> to add that feature.
>
> To me if you really want to put tasks into a calendar format I would suggest
> you try and get into the scrybe beta program.  In that way you could maybe
> influence them to better integrate their calendar with a product like MLO.
>
> I think those two products working together could give you the best
> implementation of what you are trying to do.  Basically, I just don't see
> MLO ever being re-implemented to have the features of a product like
> scrybe...
>

> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 1:08 PM, scoobie <paulphillipsdidsb...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > I hope we can export / sync tasks to gmail calendar too or import
> > google calender
> > I don't want multiple calenders but I do want to be able to move my
> > tasks around on a calendar to plan my days
>
> > See this article on scheduling your work.
>

> >http://lifehacker.com/5657222/schedule-your-work-to-avoid-a-calendar-...

>
> > --
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> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

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> > .

[Neal]

That's too bad about Scrybe, good to know, but depressing.  I was trying to keep an eye on that one just in case it became something.  I wasn't part of the Beta so I didn't have any inside info on it.

Thanks for the update...

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[Brett]

If its what other people want, I have no desire to stop them from
getting it, but personally, a calendar view is nowhere near what I
would like to be among the priorities for future developments of
MLO... However, I do use MLO to keep track of a appointments. I also
have the Due Date field set to always show days remaining, never
weekday or date (except in the mouse-over tool-tip). I like having a
count-down to important days in addition to a normal calendar view. (I
actually like this more than a normal calendar.) However, it would be
nice to be able to easily sync these appointments with my calendars. I
usually keep all these appointments in a single folder...the ability
to sync everything or a selected branch via iCal or something like
that would be ideal.

[Iain]

"I think you should make it one of the highest priorities."

+1

[Richard Collings]

>"no battle plan survives contact with the enemy"

 

But this doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t plan.     I think you will still find that the military spend a lot of time planning.   What is needed is something that lets you draw up a plan to make sure that you have some sense of how things are going to turn out (as best you can) and then to be able to adjust this very quickly in the light of what actually happens.

 

A calendar with drag and drop would allow people to do that – although there are clearly a number of challenges that need to be addressed here.

 

It is clear that there is a large majority in favour of this and only a small number of people seem not to need to plan who are opposed (so far nobody in the anti calendar faction has described how they plan –as far as i can see, the implied answer is ‘I don’t have to worry about when I get things done by’ which is a nice situation to be in but not applicable to most people’s situation)

[Neal]

To start with I disagree with both of your assumptions.

> doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t plan

Nobody is suggesting that you shouldn't plan, all people, like me, are saying is that you shouldn't plan the way you are trying to plan.  You don't need MLO to have a calendar because you shouldn't be putting your non time specific tasks in a calendar.  This is what every time management book I have ever read on the subject explicitly states.  How many different ways can people say that?  If you don't believe me try reading Forster's book "Do it Tomorrow"...

Both Ken and I have told you how we do plans.  If you didn't understand what we are saying, I will try again.

Try reading about unschedule.  Then use a calendar like google to unschedule your life.  Then add your meetings and other time commitments.  Once that is done you now know what free periods you have remaining to actually do work.

Now either add up that time directly or schedule your "pomodoro" time slices in those periods.  This gives you your time available and/or how many time segments you have available.

Now go into MLO and bring up a view with your time estimates column.  Now add them up.

You have your time available and your time needed without messing around trying to put tasks into a calendar.  A procedure that is both time consuming and requires a bunch of manual manipulation especially when "things change"...

Again, I could see why people would want a calendar in MLO for time tracking, but have no clue why anyone would want one for planning...

> It is clear that there is a large majority in favour of this

I'm sorry but exactly how did you come to that conclusion?  I'm looking at this uservoice thing and with a possible 3 votes per email account we are possibly talking less then 20 email accounts have asked for this.  Considering that there isn't any limitations on using multiple email accounts per person these requests can all come from a handful of people.

Even if we assume that all of these email accounts are using 1 vote each and all of them are unique individuals we are still talking about 2% of the total members of the google group.   And that is not even considering that forum users generally make up a small segment of the total users of the product...

So no, there is no majority asking for this that I can see...

[Iain]

Perhaps this is the crux in the for/against argument:

"Nobody is suggesting that you shouldn't plan, all people, like me,
are saying is that you shouldn't plan the way you are trying to plan."

People plan stuff in different ways. A lot of people (like me) aren't
going to read Forster's book "Do it Tomorrow", or read about
"unschedule", or about "pomodoro" time slices; they just want to plan
stuff as they want to...

Maybe you're correct that those who want a calendar view aren't
planning in the most efficient manner, and they're not using MLO to
it's full ability (I know I don't). But that doesn't detract from the
fact that they would find a calender view useful for *them*. And let's
face it, a product that has features people want is going to sell
more, and the overall project in turn is going to benefit from further
development.

*I* would like a calendar view because *I* would find it helpful. A
lot of people are saying that, I think, and I can't see the problem
with asking for it.

With regards to the uservoice thing, the calender view *is* the most
wanted feature on there, whichever way you look at it.

[david....@gmail.com]

My 2 cents on this topic is that the proponents of a calendar view have done a very poor job of articulating what exactly they want, and that makes development rather difficult. For me the desired output would be a Gantt chart variant where all applicable tasks are arrayed on t Y-axis and time would be arrayed on the X-axis. But note that this is not (IMHO) a calendar.




Sent from my BlackBerry.

[PetrH]

for me calendar makes no sense. As David Allen for GTD says - if its
tasks, it goes to your truste system (MLO). If it needs to be done at
specific time, it goes to calendar (outlook for me)..

P.

[Milan Mityska]

I agree with Petr, but some kind of Gantt chart would be useful for projects/dependencies visualization.
Milan

Sent from Windows phone

----- Puvodní zpráva -----
Od: PetrH <petr....@gmail.com>
Odesláno: 11. ríjna 2010 22:17
Komu: MyLifeOrganized <mylifeo...@googlegroups.com>
Predmet: [MLO] Re: Feature Request: Make calendar view a development priority

P.

--

[Richard Collings]

The fact that David Allen says something does not make a stronger case for
it in my opinion. Remember his approach is something that he just made up -
it is not in any way sacrosanct and there is no scientific evidence (that I
am aware of) to support the approach.

It has a few good ideas but for me it completely failed to address my
fundamental challenge - you have to deliver a report or some such project
involving a 20-200 tasks by a certain date alongside a stack of other things
(including appointments, routine tasks and other projects) - how do you plan
and manage this.

Traditional Gantt charts/Project Planning tools don't do this because they
broadly assume one person working full time on one task at a time; Outlook
doesn't do it because you can't build task hierarchies as you can in MLO.

MLO already has many of the elements needed to help with this challenge -
what is lacks is something that provides a more visual way of seeing your
work over the next few days/weeks (and yes I know about grouping by day),
which quickly shows you the extent of your commitments on each of those days
(and weeks?) and which quickly allows you to make adjustments in your
envisaged programme of work over those next few days

I agree with a previous poster that there is significant ambiguity in the
term 'calendar' but I would suspect that most of the advocates of a
'calendar' feature would sign up to the above paragraph as a statement of
high level requirement (happy to be proven wrong)

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:mylifeo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of PetrH
Sent: 11 October 2010 9:18 PM
To: MyLifeOrganized
Subject: [MLO] Re: Feature Request: Make calendar view a development
priority

P.

--

[pottster]

I think your problem Richard is that you are looking for some person
or some software to tell you how to manage your workload. The only one
who can do that is you. There is no "right way" only a "right way for
you". There has been enough debate on this forum and other
productivity websites/forums to make this painfully apparent. Everyone
manages their workload differently even if some do so in a similar
way. Workload methodologies and software are just tools. The issue
then becomes do enough people work in a similar way with a preference
for a calendar view. If so, then for goodness sake, let's have some
clarity about EXACTLY what is required because if I was Andrey I would
be extremely confused.

By the way, one of the reasons GTD has been so popular (despite some
evangelists) is that it lends itself so easily to adaptation. Almost
everyone I know who uses it has changed it in some way. That may or
may not be what David Allen intended but it's a system based on
pragmatism anyway so I suspect he's indifferent. If it works for you,
it works. I believe more in Techniques than Systems these days.

[david....@gmail.com]

Yes. Exact requirements please. Also state in the affirmative as opposed to "Not Outlook because..."

Sent from my BlackBerry.

-----Original Message-----
From: pottster <kenwar...@gmail.com>
Sender: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 05:39:14
To: MyLifeOrganized<mylifeo...@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com

[Iain]

Okay, I'll give it a go!

Bear in mind I speak only for myself - not for everyone who wants a
calendar view - and I haven't read a single GTD/David Allen book, and
haven't got a clue as to what a pomodoro time slice is... I am but a
mere MLO customer.

However, I would like to see:

A dockable/stay-on-toppable window displaying day/week/month view,
graphically indicating tasks (those that have start and/or due dates
only - but maybe that can be set up anyway in the filtering?) that
appear in the *currently selected* to-do list view, as follows:

The task due date/time. For tasks with a "time required" entry, the
time period between due date of task, and due date minus or plus max
time required. (For tasks, the work needs to happen before the due
date, but for appointments it happens from the due date, so... A new
flag to indicate whether appointment or task? Mind you, we've already
got tasks, projects and folders, another shouldn't ruffle too many
feathers?!?)

Mouse over could give further task details.

I don't envisage it being interactive - that could get very, very
messy... A double-click to get you to the task in outline view I think
would be about it.

[Richard Collings]

I would actually just repeat what I wrote before as a pretty good starting
point for the requirement:

> provides a more visual way

> of seeing your work (=tasks) over the next few days/weeks (and yes I know

about
> grouping by day), which quickly shows you the extent of your
> commitments on each of those days (and weeks?) and which quickly
> allows you to make adjustments in your envisaged programme of work
> over those next few days

Note: requirements are not solutions/designs - the above represents my
requirement. I have some ideas in my head with regard to how it might look
but I am flexible in this respect. I suppose the one thing that I would
add to that is that it would be something that presents an alternative view
of what you see in a given To Do view. Ideally you should be able to see
both at the same time - ie to have two windows onto the To Do view (as
suggested by Ian - although I would want to be able to drag and drop stuff
in the 'calendar' view)

And no I don't want something to 'manage' my work - I want something that
helps me visualise and understand what I have planned out to see whether it
is feasible. Ie: I have I overcommitted myself yet again.

The beauty of MLO in its current form is that you can use it in lots of
different ways and I wouldn't want to lose that in any further development.
I would suggest doing something simple to start off with (perhaps along the
lines suggested by Ian) and to then develop it further in the light of
feedback.

And yes, I agree that work planning should be very much about using a range
of tools that work for you selected from a range of techniques plus ideas
that you have made up for yourself. What I find problematic is people
saying that you shouldn't do something because it hasn't been sanctified by
David Allen or you are doing something wrong because it was not the way that
David Allen (or whoever) described it on his tablets of stone.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:mylifeo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of

david....@gmail.com
Sent: 12 October 2010 1:51 PM
To: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com

[jamezzz]

Alright, being a software engineer myself, I'd hardly call these
detailed requirements, but as a developer I generally do not want them
too detailed anyways. Preferring to have some latitude in how
specific features should behave. So here's what I'd like to see in an
MLO Calendar view. Keep in mind, it's essentially another view of the
data already in MLO.

* Calendar tab following the To-Do tab.
** View: Month | Week | Day. I could do without the day view because
I have filters that show that in almost the same form it would appear
in a calendar day view. The View menu would look very much like the
View dropdown menus in the Outline and To-Do tabs.
** Filter dropdown menu similiar to the View menu under To-Do tab.
Here I would see the same list of filters as in the View menu on the
To-Do tab. Allows me to apply filter to the dated tasks showing in
the calendar. This would offer a tremendous amount of flexibility in
how we determine what tasks show up on the calendar.

* Tasks would simply display in the calendar similiar to gCal where
the time block is rendered from the Start date/time to the Due date/
time, even across multiple days.

* Tasks must have at least a Due date to appear in the calendar. May
also have a Start and Due date and Times as well.

* Tasks Time (if there is a time) and Title would show on the calendar
in that order (again, similiar to Google and other calendars).

* Selecting a task in the calendar would show it's Task Notes/
Properties in the right hand pane.

* Tasks could be edited via the Task Notes/Properties tab

* Tasks could be added via the Calendar tab. Here some thought would
need to go into the user interaction for adding a task via the
calendar, but again something similiar to Google would be sufficient.
Perhaps something could be done similiar to choosing dependencies in
MLO. Perhaps, double click the day in the calendar brings up an
option to Add New or Add Existing. Add New might just allow you to
enter a name or reuse the Rapid Entry format. Add Existing Task might
open similar dialog to that used in choosing dependencies in MLO.

* Tasks could be drag/dropped within the calendar. Quick way of
rescheduling an appointment or event.

* Double-clicking the task would jump to the task in the Outline tab
(again, similiar to the To-Do/Outline behaviour now).

* Perhaps Tools Options could provide preferences for the calendar
like which day of the week is first day and whether to show Flags or
Icons or nothing next to tasks in calendar.

* MLO already supports a Full view (ability to collapse the right hand
pane).

* Bonus Feature: ability split Outline or To-Do tab and Calendar tab
in order to support drag and drop between outline and calendar. That
would be nice, but seems that would require a larger scale change to
the general layout of MLO which I'd rather see kept to a minimum.

So that's essentially what I'm looking for when I say I'd like a
calendar view in MLO. Of course, the devil is in the details and this
is just one opinion. But the main goal would be to reuse much of the
functionality already in MLO, providing a new view of the data that's
already there.

[Richard Collings]

Sounds a pretty good starting point for me.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:mylifeo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of jamezzz
Sent: 13 October 2010 12:09 AM
To: MyLifeOrganized
Subject: [MLO] Re: Feature Request: Make calendar view a development
priority

--

[Richard Collings]

Don’t want to get into a major row about this so just a brief reply.

 

I will read up on unscheduling but none of the books that i have read (or in most cases, skimmed) have provided answers to the challenges that I have outlined which is to provide a lightweight forward planning tool.   I may have missed it so happy to be told otherwise.

 

The Pomodoro Technique gets closest and I would like to see MLO implementing some of the ideas there, which would appear to me to be in line with what you  have outlined below.

 

I would just like MLO to help with the maths and the visualisation and the with manipulation.

 

On the voting thing, I am basing it on postings to this group – I would say that there are small number of people who are against adding a ‘calendar/time lin’ type view (5?).  And that there have been between 20 and 40 individuals posting in favour over the last couple of years

 

Richard

 

From: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:mylifeo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Neal
Sent: 11 October 2010 6:32 AM
To: mylifeo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MLO] Re: Feature Request: Make calendar view a development priority

 

To start with I disagree with both of your assumptions.

--

[Simon Longbottom]

Completely agree with Richard here. This is a very realistic problem and I have not found any good solutions so far besides my own memory!

I'm sure you are strapped for resources at mlo but would love to try a beta of this.

[Iain]

Quoting jamezzz: "Tasks would simply display in the calendar similiar

to gCal where the time block is rendered from the Start date/time to
the Due date/time, even across multiple days."

Doesn't the Start date/time just indicate when a task starts to be
*available* to do..? I've lots of tasks that I *can* do now, but don't
particularly want the whole period from Start date (if any) to Due
date for each task blocked out in the calendar. Hence my previous
emphasis on Due date & Time Required only.

"Tasks could be drag/dropped within the calendar. Quick way of
rescheduling an appointment or event."

I guess there are two schools of thought - those that want a proper
interactive calendar, and those that would be happy with a "calendar
view". I'd meekly suggest that to program a view-only calendar that is
useful is quite a challenge in itself. Once that's perfected, yes
interaction would be lovely! But one step at a time...

Sorry, this isn't intended as knocking your ideas! Just my thoughts.
And I haven't seen the gCal calendar.

[Iain]

Following on from my original idea, another thing while it's in my
head...

Tasks displaying in the calendar could be highlighted where it's
impossible to complete it in that time slot (ie by/from the Due date).
For example I need to buy a Thing by Sunday evening, but the context
is not open then. So this task would be highlighted, prompting user to
re-evaluate the actual Due date.

I reiterate that I believe this calendar should be a read-only view...

[jamezzz]

Seems the Due Date and Time Required would work as well. One would
have to decide whether to use the Min or Max field to mark the end of
a meeting. The way MLO has it's date/time fields defined works great
for Tasks that have due dates and times, but isn't ideal for modeling
appointments/meetings. When talking Tasks it makes sense to say it
has a Due date and some lead time (which implicitly defines a start
date), but for meetings folks generally think in terms of a Start date/
time and End date/time. However, to me this is a minor issue as I can
model appointments in MLO fine.

How interactive to make an MLO calendar can also be handled
incrementally. In fact, it probably makes the most sense to take an
incremental approach to an MLO calendar to allow for course
corrections as such an undertaking is sure to require...if Andrey and
team decide to do that, of course.

I read a suggestion somewhere that perhaps MLO should import/export
with Google Calendar (gCal). My only reservation there is that other
applications have had issues with tasks/appointments updating on gCal
in a timely manner. Sometimes it takes over 24 hours before an
appointment might show up there. The app developer has no control
over how quickly that information appears on gCal. I've tried apps
that do this and it's okay, but frankly misses the mark in my book.

[Iain]

Yes, I think I'd broadly agree with all of that! With regards to
Google Calendar (which I use all the time & love but I didn't
recognise the gCal abbreviation - how slow am I?!) I think a one-way
synchronisation (ie view only) would work, but to make it read-only in
Google Calendar it would have to go into it's own Calendar I think,
which you don't touch, just view. I've come across a a couple of times
the problem of delayed updating, but only by a few minutes. I assumed
it was just a problem with the web interface/connection, but perhaps
it's an actual Google issue.