Harmonic Table Keyboards

[Clark Battle]

You might also want to take a look at this.  Harmonic Table keyboards are pretty much perfect for 12 tone music.

Clark

[Michael Johnston]

> <http://www.c-thru-music.com>.

Very interesting.

Cheers!
Michael
--
MICHAEL'S MUSIC SERVICE 4146 Sheridan Dr, Charlotte, NC 28205
704-567-1066 ** Please call or email us for your organ needs **
http://michaelsmusicservice.com "Organ Music Is Our Specialty"

[John Keller]

Just when i had got my head around Thummer!
What does Jim think of this?

JohnK

[Ken GM Rushton]

Hi all.

Jim extensiively analysed layouts like this.

To quote from his "Isomorphiism" powerpoint slide (copyright 2005):

 

Layout Name	H	V
Wicki/Hayden	+2	+5
Janko	+2	-1
CBA: B System	+3	-2
CBA: C System	+3	-3
Wesley	+7	+5
Triad	+4	+3

 

The number is the pitch change in semitones where H is moving 1 key right, and V is moving 1 key up vertically (and to the left if the keys are on a diagonal.  

Thus, the "Harmonic Table" system is also called the Triad system somewhere in the literature.

 

I've looked at it, and concluded it's not as nice as the W/H system, as least from the point of view of learning, possibly playing the music I want to play. To play a chromatic or major scale, for example means a complex key-crossing zig-zag of the hand, vs the W/H which is easy to play either without moving the hand, just the fingers.

 

It's also wickedly hard to explain, while I've worked out a 1-minute sound bite (posted in my MusicScienceGuy blog) for the W/H layout. It could be a bit faster to play classical music.

 

As it looks increasingly likely that I will be making a DIY kit, why don't you build one, and try out the various combinations and decide yourself?  

Ken, MusicScienceGuy.vox.com

[Paul W. Morris]

Hi Everyone, While we're at it, I'll add this link to Starr Labs
that I ran across:
http://www.starrlabs.com/keyboards.php

They basically have two keyboard layouts - the first mirrors a
guitar's neck, ascending chromatically on the horizontal axis with
each row offset by a perfect fourth on the vertical axis. Very
intuitive for guitarists. It has a rectangular grid of keys rather
than the hexagonal honeycomb of the C-Thru or Thummer.

Their other keyboard layout uses the hexagonal honeycomb, but tuned
to the Bosanquet layout (31 tone equal temperament) as shown here:
http://improvise.free.fr/bosanquet/bosanquet.html (this is where I
found the link to the Starr Labs site)

Both appear to be programmable.

All of these keyboard models, both Starrlabs and C-Thru, are rather
pricey! C-Thru at $1700, and Starr Labs at $3000 or more.

More power to those of you working on building your own! That's well
beyond my expertise. Glad to have you on our forum, which has always
had discussion of alternative instrument design along with new music
notation design. The two complement each other well, since they both
usually follow the basic principle of isomorphism, interval
consistency, key neutrality, etc... (Of course, you should be able
to use any instrument with any general purpose notation system, and
vice versa.)

Cheers,
Paul

[jko...@bigpond.net.au]

Hi guys,

Im was interested to see the colour coding for this Harmonic keyboard. D/L symmetry! Do they have non-traditional letternames for the black keys? It seems that refering to the blacks as G#/Ab etc would get cumbersome. The Thummer of course needs the enharmonic distinction. Also are these people proposing a notation? Do 6-6 players like Paul V have interest in these other layouts?...

John k

[PJP...@aol.com]

Hi MNP;

 

where can I learn all I need to know about the electronics of midi keyboard building?  

 

mostly for building alternative keyboards and other electronic instruments.............

 

Regards; Paul Panebianco

---

Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

[Ken GM Rushton]

I really like my colour notation - it's important, since I play everything in the correct key; I really want to develop my sense of pitch.
With this colouring, if something is in the key of D, the fingers start on the orange key, and say all the Gs are red, Bs are violet.



Ken.

[Paul Vandervoort]

jko...@bigpond.net.au wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> Im was interested to see the colour coding for this Harmonic keyboard. D/L symmetry! Do 6-6 players like Paul V have interest in these other layouts?...
>

I've reviewed these keyboards briefly. Other than being able to reach
larger intervals with one hand, I don't see much advantage over the
Janko, and I do see disadvantages. From the small bit of experimenting
I've done, it seems to me that some chords and patterns are awkward
compared to the Janko.

I like my slightly-oversized Janko a lot. It's very ergonomic, and
affords lots of finger clearance (margin-for-error). Chromatic chord
patterns and half-step grace notes are common in pop music and very easy
to play. And virtually anything which can be played on a conventional
keyboard can be played on a Janko (C-Major glissandos are one obvious
exception).

Paul V.

[Ken GM Rushton]

The jammer (W/H) layout is essentially the Janko layout with the note-assignment of the second rows keys moved left 3 keys, so the the important dominant an sub-dominant (F and G against a C root), thus making for less hand movement. Of course it does make for more finger movement, I've found, and many piano scores and arrangements are, not surprisingly, designed around a piano fingering.

The jammer however, gives one a much better idea of what one is playing since intervals are angles and not spacings. One can see that for example a major 7 chord has 2 intervals of a 5th and 2 intervals of 3rd. Switching from playing a melody to chord is simpler; the chords are there at your fingers.
 
I think that many people who have several years of piano experience will prefer the Janko, it's just a matter (if one has piano experience) of changing the fingering slightly, Correct Paul?

Ken.

[Paul W. Morris]

I'll just add my two cents, for what they're worth. Having compared
these two hexagonal layouts a bit more, I agree with Paul V (see
message below). For me I don't think the advantage of being able to
play larger intervals/chords with one hand outweigh the clarity and
intuitiveness of the Janko's simpler linear pitch axis.

Of course, like most musicians I'm already used to the piano and
guitar, so that no doubt affects my perspective, and I'm up for
trying anything. Nevertheless, I think you'd be hard pressed to
improve on the simple isomorphic Janko layout for immediately and
intuitively seeing and feeling how intervals stack on top of one
another to form chords, and what the pitch distances are between the
dominant, sub-dominant, and tonic, (etc...) and how they all relate
to one another. And the Janko does improve upon the piano for the
span of notes you can reach with one hand.

Clark Battle raises a good point about how tricky it is to find
chromatic progressions on the W/H layout. On the other hand, when
playing a diatonic scale on the Triadic layout, it's hard for me to
see what the interval relations are between the notes.

It seems like they should turn the hexagonal pattern 90 degrees so
that instead of this:

<_><_><_><_>

you have this:

|^|^|^|^|^|^|^|

Compare:
http://www.c-thru-music.com/cgi/?page=layout_kbdmap

With:
http://musicscienceguy.vox.com/profile/

As it is now the horizontal spacing between the chromatic notes is so
spread out... It seems like it would make more sense to have the
horizontal axis more compressed and the vertical more spread out. It
looks like Ken has done this with his jammer - good thinking!

(I guess they'd have to change the name to Y-thru music... ha!)

Anyway, I'm all for experimenting with different layouts and having
different options open to people so that things can sort themselves
out in an organic bottom-up way. The idea of having a single
standard dictated either by legacy or through sheer marketing muscle
sounds pretty dismal to me. I love the idea of a diy keyboard kit
and group. I hope you guys can pull it off! You might consider
contacting the guy who runs http://ii4i.net If nothing else he
could give you a link from his site.

Paul M.

[Andrew Wagner]

(I tried to send this on April 9, but Google Groups failed silently.
Sorry if it is out of sync.)

Hello Clark-

Thanks for the link! My diy janko piano project was actually sparked
by reading about all the various hexagonal button midi controllers
out there.

Drew

On Apr 9, 2008, at 1:33 PM, Clark Battle wrote:

> You might also want to take a look at this <http://www.c-thru-
> music.com>.