Account Options

  1. Sign in
The old Google Groups will be going away soon, but your browser is incompatible with the new version.
Google Groups Home
« Groups Home
Music Ontology Issues
There are currently too many topics in this group that display first. To make this topic appear first, remove this option from another topic.
There was an error processing your request. Please try again.
flag
  9 messages - Collapse all  -  Translate all to Translated (View all originals)
The group you are posting to is a Usenet group. Messages posted to this group will make your email address visible to anyone on the Internet.
Your reply message has not been sent.
Your post was successful
 
From:
To:
Cc:
Followup To:
Add Cc | Add Followup-to | Edit Subject
Subject:
Validation:
For verification purposes please type the characters you see in the picture below or the numbers you hear by clicking the accessibility icon. Listen and type the numbers you hear
 
Carlos Bobed  
View profile  
 More options Jul 27 2012, 9:52 am
From: Carlos Bobed <carlos.bo...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 06:52:13 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Fri, Jul 27 2012 9:52 am
Subject: Music Ontology Issues

Hello everyone!

I was studying the Music Ontology to use the vocabulary it provides
and I've found out that the current version:

http://motools.sourceforge.net/doc/musicontology.rdfs

as it is in the Web cannot be loaded directly by editors such as
Protegé or NeOnToolkit. There is a problem with importing the
similarity ontology (MuSim): there is an ontology that imports it and
references its namespace http://purl.org/ontology/similarity/ instead
of the physical URL. I've found a workaround in the editors I use,
this is, to load firstly by hand the similarity ontology in the
workspace and then load the Music Ontology in the same workspace (this
way, when it imports the namespace, it takes it from the loaded
version).

Besides, a question has come into my mind once I've managed to load
it: is this ontology oriented to perform any reasoning task or just to
specify a vocabulary for publishing Linked Data? I mean, once loaded,
I've classified it with three different reasoners (Pellet, HermiT and
Fact++) and all of them tell me that Association (the class from
similarity ontology) is equivalent to Thing, and therefore, everything
in the ontology has to be considered an association. If I keep the
expressivity of my system just at RDF level, it might not be
important; however, if I want to perform some reasoning over a
classified A-Box, this might be quite harmful. What kind of tasks were
thought of to be performed with this ontology?

Thank you very much in advance,

Carlos Bobed Lisbona
 University of Zaragoza, Spain


 
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
Bob Ferris  
View profile  
 More options Jul 27 2012, 10:15 am
From: Bob Ferris <z...@smiy.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 16:15:18 +0200
Local: Fri, Jul 27 2012 10:15 am
Subject: Re: Music Ontology Issues
Hi Carlos,

thanks a lot for you interest in the Music Ontology.

Here is only a short answer from me for now:

(see my inline comments)

On 07/27/2012 03:52 PM, Carlos Bobed wrote:

> Hello everyone!

> I was studying the Music Ontology to use the vocabulary it provides
> and I've found out that the current version:

> http://motools.sourceforge.net/doc/musicontology.rdfs

> as it is in the Web cannot be loaded directly by editors such as
> Proteg or NeOnToolkit. There is a problem with importing the
> similarity ontology (MuSim): there is an ontology that imports it and
> references its namespace http://purl.org/ontology/similarity/ instead
> of the physical URL.

That's probably an issue of your ontology modelling tool, i.e., it
should be able to dereference the given PURL to an rdf/xml media typed
document (I tried it with curl and accepted = rdf/xml and it worked).
AFAIK, this is an know issue of Proteg . You may give TopBraid Composer
a try ;)

> I've found a workaround in the editors I use,
> this is, to load firstly by hand the similarity ontology in the
> workspace and then load the Music Ontology in the same workspace (this
> way, when it imports the namespace, it takes it from the loaded
> version).

> Besides, a question has come into my mind once I've managed to load
> it: is this ontology oriented to perform any reasoning task or just to
> specify a vocabulary for publishing Linked Data? I mean, once loaded,
> I've classified it with three different reasoners (Pellet, HermiT and
> Fact++) and all of them tell me that Association (the class from
> similarity ontology) is equivalent to Thing, and therefore, everything
> in the ontology has to be considered an association.

Hm, that's a bit strange. I'm not really sure, how the reasoners came to
this conclusion. From having a look at the MuSim specification, I
couldn't find this equivalence-class relation. There is only a
equivalence relation to owl:Restriction (which is right (AFAIK)).

Cheers,

Bo


 
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
Carlos Bobed  
View profile  
 More options Jul 27 2012, 10:40 am
From: Carlos Bobed <carlos.bo...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 16:40:05 +0200
Local: Fri, Jul 27 2012 10:40 am
Subject: Re: Music Ontology Issues
2012/7/27 Bob Ferris <z...@smiy.org>:

I'll try TopBraid :), thank you. However, this also happens when
loading it via the OWLAPI (at least, version 3.2.x), which
is the API I use to handle ontologies.

it's quite counter-intuitive, but when loading and classifying the
similarity ontology, all the
different reasoners entail that they are equivalent. In particular,
when asking for explanations, Pellet
tells that :

1) Association is equivalent to method max 1 Thing
2) method Domain Association

I think this is related to OWA, and the fact that the properties in
OWL are not "inherited" in the same sense
that in Object Oriented thinking. When we say that the domain of
method is Association, is works in both ways,
if you assert that something participates in the method property, it
becames an Association. This way, the first
fact says that Associations are the elements that participates at most
in method property once: every element that
does not participate at all in method property, will be classified as
Annotation. Moreover, due to the fact of OWA, if
an element is associated to two different individuals through method,
they become the same individual (as nobody has told
the reasoner to assume them as being different individuals).

For example, if I assert a, b, c as being Thing:

- if I assert a method b, then
a and c are Association, b becomes AssociationMethod (due to the range
of method)
- if I add a method c, then
a is an Association, and b and c become equivalent individuals
- now I add an allDifferent axiom to close the world:
the ontology becomes inconsistent.

So, I think there is a problem with the underlying logic that has been
used to model the similarity ontology, that is propagated
to the whole Music Ontology.

Cheers,


 
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
Carlos Bobed  
View profile  
 More options Jul 27 2012, 10:48 am
From: Carlos Bobed <carlos.bo...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 16:48:32 +0200
Local: Fri, Jul 27 2012 10:48 am
Subject: Re: Music Ontology Issues
In fact, what the ontology is saying is that:

Everything is an association, because:

1) they are not participating in the method property
2) if they participate, they only can be related to one element.

Which involves every individual, so it is equivalent to Thing.

I think that the Association definition should include also an
existential/minimal cardinality of 1 for the method property in order
to be
accurate.

2012/7/27 Carlos Bobed <carlos.bo...@gmail.com>:


 
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
Sean Bechhofer  
View profile  
 More options Jul 27 2012, 11:56 am
From: Sean Bechhofer <sean.bechho...@googlemail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 16:56:42 +0100
Local: Fri, Jul 27 2012 11:56 am
Subject: Re: Music Ontology Issues

On 27 Jul 2012, at 15:48, Carlos Bobed wrote:

> In fact, what the ontology is saying is that:

> Everything is an association, because:

> 1) they are not participating in the method property
> 2) if they participate, they only can be related to one element.

Protege's explanation functionality can help here. If you load the similarity ontology, run a reasoner and then click the little "?" that appears in Description pane next to the line showing you that Thing is an equivalent class, then you'll be shown the axioms that contribute to this inference, which are:

Association EquivalentTo method max 1 Thing
method Domain Association

So anything that doesn't have a method relationship has less than one method relationship (i.e 0), so is thus an Association. And anything with a method relationship must be an Association because of the domain assertion. Therefore everything is an Association, regardless of whether we know about its method relationships, which is where open world reasoning comes in.

Cheers,

        Sean

--
sean.bechho...@googlemail.com

 
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
Yves Raimond  
View profile  
 More options Jul 27 2012, 12:10 pm
From: Yves Raimond <yves.raim...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 17:10:52 +0100
Local: Fri, Jul 27 2012 12:10 pm
Subject: Re: Music Ontology Issues

Hello!

I just forwarded this discussion to Kurt, as I think musim is under his
control - it looks like we might need to remove this axiom from there?

In the short term, perhaps we can remove the import statement?

Best
Yves
On Jul 27, 2012 5:56 PM, "Sean Bechhofer" <sean.bechho...@googlemail.com>
wrote:


 
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
Frederick Giasson  
View profile  
 More options Jul 27 2012, 12:30 pm
From: Frederick Giasson <f...@fgiasson.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 12:30:23 -0400
Local: Fri, Jul 27 2012 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: Music Ontology Issues
Hi!

> In the short term, perhaps we can remove the import statement?

Agreed

Thanks,

Fred


 
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
Bob Ferris  
View profile  
 More options Jul 28 2012, 12:47 pm
From: Bob Ferris <z...@smiy.org>
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 18:47:16 +0200
Local: Sat, Jul 28 2012 12:47 pm
Subject: Re: Music Ontology Issues
Hi Carlos,
Hi all,

now I see the problem, the modelling of the restriction is wrong. It
should be a sub class of owl:Restriction, instead of a equivalent class.
So thanks a lot for discovering the bug ;)

Cheers,

Bo

On 7/27/2012 4:40 PM, Carlos Bobed wrote:


 
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
Carlos Bobed  
View profile  
 More options Jul 28 2012, 3:20 pm
From: Carlos Bobed <carlos.bo...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 21:20:20 +0200
Local: Sat, Jul 28 2012 3:20 pm
Subject: Re: Music Ontology Issues

Hi Bob,
Hi all,

You're welcome, the community will profit :)
El 28/07/2012 17:47, "Bob Ferris" <z...@smiy.org> escribió:


 
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
End of messages
« Back to Discussions « Newer topic     Older topic »