Issues with GTFS data

[Nicholas Bergson-Shilcock]

Below are some issues that my colleague David Turner and I have found while
working with the MTA GTFS data:

* The MTA Bus Company dataset isn't GTFS, and I've never seen the format that
it's in. Are there plans to release GTFS for the MTA Bus data? Or do you have
any documentation or information about the format that the data is in?

* The NYCT Subway GTFS includes shape data for almost all the lines (which is
awesome and very welcome!) but doesn't have shape data for either the 1 or the
G train.

* R/W trains are listed as stopping at Cortlandt St in both directions.

* There is no transfers.txt file. This isn't really an error, since it's
optional in the GTFS spec, but having this file is very important in places
like NYC, since it is necessary to explain transfers between, e.g., the various
Canal St. stations (i.e., the JMZ, NQ, RW, and 6 stations).

* There is no indication of where there is a free transfer from uptown to
downtown trains. This actually matters when planning certain trips. For
example, when going from JFK to the Cloisters: http://bit.ly/jfk-to-cloisters
(note that there isn't a transfer at 50th st).

That's all for now :)

Thanks,
-Nick

[Aaron Donovan]

Nick,

Thanks for bringing these items to our attention. Sarah is going to
look into the NYC Transit items and I'll take a look at the MTA Bus
Company dataset. We'll be back with the Group shortly.

-Aaron

[Aaron Donovan]

Nick,

Sarah and I are making good progress gathering data for you on these
queries. We expect to have answers for you before the end of the
week.

On the last question, the itinerary had me transfer at 42nd Street,
not 50th Street (since the A doesn't normally serve 50th except
overnights), but your point is well taken. I created an itinerary for
JFK to 72nd St. & CPW, and it had me transfer at 50th Street from
downtown E to uptown C. Your question is whether that scenario (and
similar ones elsewhere) would offer a free out-of-station transfer for
holders of pay-per-ride MetroCards.

-Aaron

On Feb 17, 7:04 pm, Nicholas Bergson-Shilcock

[David Turner]

On Tue, 2010-02-23 at 11:29 -0800, Aaron Donovan wrote:
> Nick,
>
> Sarah and I are making good progress gathering data for you on these
> queries. We expect to have answers for you before the end of the
> week.
>
> On the last question, the itinerary had me transfer at 42nd Street,
> not 50th Street (since the A doesn't normally serve 50th except
> overnights), but your point is well taken. I created an itinerary for
> JFK to 72nd St. & CPW, and it had me transfer at 50th Street from
> downtown E to uptown C. Your question is whether that scenario (and
> similar ones elsewhere) would offer a free out-of-station transfer for
> holders of pay-per-ride MetroCards.

Can you send a link of where Google plans a trip which makes a
downtown-to-uptown transfer at 50th st? We couldn't make it do this,
we assume because there is no crossover/crossunder there.

Our question is not whether there are free out-of-station transfers
(according to Wikipedia, there are not). Our question was whether
the GTFS data could be made to reflect the lack of crossover/crossunder
at 50th St and anywhere else where it will affect trip planning.

When we generated GTFS from the RTIF, I manually entered all of the
places where free uptown-to-downtown transfers were available (using the
Kick map as a source). To do this, I treated each direction of each
platform as a stop.

[Jehiah Czebotar]

> Our question is not whether there are free out-of-station transfers
> (according to Wikipedia, there are not).

there is however a single free out-of-station transfer (with
metrocard) between Lexington Avenue 59th st (4,5,6,N,R,W) and the 63rd
st stop(F,V).

--
Jehiah

[David Turner]

(I meant at stations with no crossover/crossunder between directions --
there's actually another out-of-station transfer at Court Sq in Queens
between the 7, the EV, and the G).

[Samuel Wong]

FYI, 63rd Street is only for the F.

--
Samuel Wong │Fordham University, LC 2009, GSAS 2010
Legislative Aide on Technology in Government
Office of Council Member Gale A. Brewer
The New York City Council
250 Broadway, Suite 1744
New York, NY 10007
City Hall: P: (212) 788-6975  │ F: (212) 513-7717
M: (646) 648-2179
samwo...@gmail.com
Please consider the environment before printing this message.

A country cannot subsist well without liberty, nor liberty without virtue. –Daniel Webster
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. - Cicero
Government is a trust, and the officers of the government are trustees. And both the trust and the trustees are created for the benefit of the people. -Henry Clay

[Jehiah Czebotar]

haha of course it is. Apparently i need my afternoon coffee still =)

thanks Samuel!

[Aaron Donovan]

> Can you send a link of where Google plans a trip which makes a
> downtown-to-uptown transfer at 50th st? We couldn't make it do this,
> we assume because there is no crossover/crossunder there.

You know what? Now it's not working for me either. It is saying
transfer to the B at Seventh Av., which makes much more sense. I
plugged in the same itinerary for the weekend when the B doesn't run,
but it had me transfer from E to C at 42nd St.

I could have sworn it listed a 50th St. transfer before! Someone from
Google Maps must be lurking.

-Aaron

[Kaufman, Sarah]

Hi all,
Please see below for responses to Nick and David's questions; please let me know if further clarity is needed:

* The NYCT Subway GTFS includes shape data for almost all the lines (which is
awesome and very welcome!) but doesn't have shape data for either the 1 or the
G train.

We do not have shape data for these lines because of changes in their station configurations have occurred since we lost the staff member who had created the data. We have not had funding to replace him and update the data from 2008. We can provide the data next week with a hand-done solution, and/or better data at some later time, when we are able to acquire the staffing to do so.

The change for the 1 train since 2008 is the new South Ferry Station, which is in a different location than the old station. The G train now stops at Church Avenue.

* R/W trains are listed as stopping at Cortlandt St in both directions.

The R/W trains are not intended to be listed as stopping at Cortlandt St. (southbound). The time indicated is the scheduled time the trains travel past Cortlandt St. (without stopping). The data identifies the stop as not allowing pickup or drop-off in the southbound direction. You may encounter similar instances involving other stations in our data.

* There is no transfers.txt file. This isn't really an error, since it's
optional in the GTFS spec, but having this file is very important in places
like NYC, since it is necessary to explain transfers between, e.g., the various
Canal St. stations (i.e., the JMZ, NQ, RW, and 6 stations).

We are working on developing this list, and we expect to have it available when the data is completed and verified, hopefully by the end of March, if not sooner.

* There is no indication of where there is a free transfer from uptown to
downtown trains. This actually matters when planning certain trips. For
example, when going from JFK to the Cloisters: http://bit.ly/jfk-to-cloisters
(note that there isn't a transfer at 50th st).

We do not currently have a list that provides the crossover information concisely, but are looking into creating one from several existing information sources elsewhere. With our staffing shortage in that department, this effort will take some time, so please be patient on this one.


Thanks,
Sarah

 
 
 
SARAH M. KAUFMAN
MTA New York City Transit
Projects Coordinator, Emerging and Intelligent Transportation Systems
2 Broadway • 7th Floor • New York, NY 10004 • www.mta.info/nyct
sarah....@nyct.com • twitter.com/NYCTSubwayScoop

[Nicholas Bergson-Shilcock]

On Feb 25, 2010, at 12:53 PM, "Kaufman, Sarah"
<Sarah....@nyct.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
> Please see below for responses to Nick and David's questions; please
> let me know if further clarity is needed:
>
> * The NYCT Subway GTFS includes shape data for almost all the lines
> (which is
> awesome and very welcome!) but doesn't have shape data for either
> the 1 or the
> G train.
>
> We do not have shape data for these lines because of changes in
> their station configurations have occurred since we lost the staff
> member who had created the data. We have not had funding to replace
> him and update the data from 2008. We can provide the data next week
> with a hand-done solution, and/or better data at some later time,
> when we are able to acquire the staffing to do so.
>
> The change for the 1 train since 2008 is the new South Ferry
> Station, which is in a different location than the old station. The
> G train now stops at Church Avenue.
>
>

Thanks for the explanation. As an interim fix, I used the portion of
the shape for the 2 between Chambers and 96th, and extended it at the
ends using just the stop locations.

> * R/W trains are listed as stopping at Cortlandt St in both
> directions.
>
> The R/W trains are not intended to be listed as stopping at
> Cortlandt St. (southbound). The time indicated is the scheduled time
> the trains travel past Cortlandt St. (without stopping). The data
> identifies the stop as not allowing pickup or drop-off in the
> southbound direction. You may encounter similar instances involving
> other stations in our data.
>
>
> * There is no transfers.txt file. This isn't really an error, since
> it's
> optional in the GTFS spec, but having this file is very important in
> places
> like NYC, since it is necessary to explain transfers between, e.g.,
> the various
> Canal St. stations (i.e., the JMZ, NQ, RW, and 6 stations).
>
> We are working on developing this list, and we expect to have it
> available when the data is completed and verified, hopefully by the
> end of March, if not sooner.
>

I'm glad to hear you're working on it. We have an experimental
transfers.txt file that David put together a few days ago which we're
happy to share.

>
> * There is no indication of where there is a free transfer from
> uptown to
> downtown trains. This actually matters when planning certain trips.
> For
> example, when going from JFK to the Cloisters: http://bit.ly/jfk-to-cloisters
> (note that there isn't a transfer at 50th st).
>
> We do not currently have a list that provides the crossover
> information concisely, but are looking into creating one from
> several existing information sources elsewhere. With our staffing
> shortage in that department, this effort will take some time, so
> please be patient on this one.
>

Thanks for the thorough response!

-Nick