Mike Easter - Is this a bug...

[Mark Filipak]

I don't know how to reach you, Mike, so I'm posting this to the list. I have a problem with TB that's very hard to explain.

Thunderbird appears to be flawed at the architectural level. Here's a real-world example to illustrate.

I have a very large number of TB accounts. Most are via gmail. Here are three of them (suitably obfuscated):

markfilipak.mozilla ...at... gmail.com
markfilipak.wikipedia ...at... gmail.com
markfilipak.imdb ...at... gmail.com

When I looked into Tools > Account Settings > Outgoing Server (SMTP) Settings I found:

smtp.googlemail.com
smtp.googlemail.com
smtp.googlemail.com

Are they the same? No. One is 'for' markfilipak.mozilla, one is 'for' markfilipak.wikipedia, and one is 'for' markfilipak.imdb. But wait... It shouldn't matter what SMTP server I use, Right? I should be able to have only ONE SMTP server and send everything through that. But I can't. If I try, TB screws up the "From" & "Return-Path" headers.

...Here's where this story gets hard to follow...

If markfilipak.wikipedia uses the SMTP server from markfilipak.wikipedia to send a message to markfilipak.mozilla then the headers look like this:

- To: markfilip...@gmail.com
- From: Mark Filipak <markfilipa...@gmail.com>
- Return-Path: <markfilipa...@gmail.com>

But if markfilipak.wikipedia uses the SMTP server from markfilipak.imdb to send a message to markfilipak.mozilla then the headers look like this:

- To: markfilip...@gmail.com
- From: Mark Filipak <markfili...@gmail.com>
- Return-Path: <markfili...@gmail.com>

At first glance, that would appear to be correct (and sensible), BUT IT'S NEITHER CORRECT NOR SENSIBLE.

As I wrote above, I should be able to send a message from any of them through a single SMTP server, but I can't. I have to send messages through the SMTP server that matches the TB account because TB constructs the headers, not from the account information, but from the SMTP server used. !!!___ THAT'S NOT RIGHT ___!!!

This misbehavior on the part of TB has royally screwed things up in the past. I'm not going to go into the workaround I developed because it's really complex (Hint: enum). I'll just leave the last sentence above: !!!___ THAT'S NOT RIGHT ___!!!

Comment?

Mark.

[Mike Easter]

Mark Filipak wrote:
> I don't know how to reach you, Mike, so I'm posting this to the
> list.

That is 'by design' and exactly what you should do. It is better for
all of us if newsgroup related discussions take place in the newsgroup,
not pen-pal email. I see that you are using the mailing list, but I am
using the news server news.mozilla.org which I much prefer over list mail.

> I have a problem with TB that's very hard to explain.

Rather than address your questions and your message in-line, I'll
paraphrase it as I understand.

You have a number of Tb accounts. That's fine.

You have some alternate addresses/nyms at gmail that I'll refer to as
moz, wiki, & imdb <at> gmail.

You are questioning why you can't have one gmail smtp server and the
answer is that you can.

In each pop or imap account there is a setting for that account's
outgoing/smtp server and one choice is default. It doesn't really
matter which smtp server an account uses to send its mail; what is more
important is what From address the account wants to use.

Each account has a configuration for Your Name or handle and another for
Email address which is the email address you want to appear in the From
for the mails which originate from that account. It isn't necessary
that that From match the login address for the account's servers.

When you initiate/compose an email 'from scratch' (as opposed to a
reply) you need to pay attention to what account you are 'in' when you
start that compose.

> Comment?

You really only need one smtp server, no matter how many nyms you have.
Also I have several different email provider accounts which all use
the same smtp.

But if you are going to have different personas, you have to pay
attention to how you handle your mail so that mail which comes to moz or
wiki or imdb gets answered with a From that persona.


--
Mike Easter

[Mark Filipak]

Thank you for your reply, Mike. Why doesn't this work as you describe for me?

Kindly reread my example. You have been too brief in your thinking about it - I told you this is hard to grasp.

What I am claiming is that I have a distinct SMTP server setting for each account - that was NOT my intention, but was what TB did when I created the accounts. (The apparent URL of all of the servers are the same: "smtp.googlemail.com".) But if TB loses track of which (apparently identical-looking) server is associated with which account, TB screws up the headers.

Clue: inside TB, the accounts are given account numbers (by simple enumeration) and it's the numbers that count.

Simply stated: If a TB account points to the wrong SMTP server, then the outgoing mail gets the wrong "From" & "Return-Path" headers.

I know that an SMTP server is an SMTP server and that they're supposed to be all created equal, but that's not how TB works. That's why I'm upset with TB.

[Mike Easter]

Mark Filipak wrote:

> What I am claiming is that I have a distinct SMTP server setting for
> each account

I understand/ know what you are saying.

- that was NOT my intention, but was what TB did when I
> created the accounts.

I understand how it does that.

But you can fix each and every account to have the smtp server of your
wishes.

> (The apparent URL of all of the servers are the
> same: "smtp.googlemail.com".) But if TB loses track of which (apparently
> identical-looking) server is associated with which account, TB screws up
> the headers.

I understand. But you can also fix which From is populating the compose
even if you start it in the wrong account. But it is better if you are
handling each persona's mail from its own account.

> Clue: inside TB, the accounts are given account numbers (by simple
> enumeration) and it's the numbers that count.
>
> Simply stated: If a TB account points to the wrong SMTP server, then the
> outgoing mail gets the wrong "From" & "Return-Path" headers.

No. The From comes from how the account is configured under name comes
email.

> I know that an SMTP server is an SMTP server and that they're supposed
> to be all created equal, but that's not how TB works. That's why I'm
> upset with TB.

I know what you mean when you say that Tb does things the way it thinks
it should be -- but you can fix what it does wrong or contrary to your
wishes.


--
Mike Easter

[Mike Easter]

Hereafter I'll call markfilipak.mozilla ...at... gmail.com moz for
short and similarly the others short will be imdb and wiki.

Now look at the Settings for moz; you can give the account whatever name
you like; I recommend Moz rather than the long email addy.

That is, the Account name is whatever you name it; not your email username.

Next in that section is Name: which you might have Mark Filipak
Then Email address, which you would have as the long address as above.
Way down at the bottom of that section is: Outgoing server.

It doesn't even have to be a gmail server and there doesn't need to be
more than one gmail server because the From doesn't have to match up
with the user/pass for the smtp server.

You can get rid of some of those redundant gmail servers in the Server
settings left panel way down at the bottom where the outgoing servers are.

If you select Outgoing server, the Right panel shows you all of the smtp
servers and you can remove however many of them you want. And you can
set the Default smtp server there.

--
Mike Easter

[Mark Filipak]

Mike. I really do know what a mail client should do. I used Eudora for 10 years, then TBird for 10 years. I'm increasingly unhappy with TBird. I've never been able to get news groups with TBird.

I'm now getting this:
"An error occurred while sending mail. The mail server responded: 5.7.0 Must issue a STARTTLS command first. k24sm95449058yhd.5 - gsmtp. Please verify that your email address is correct in your Mail preferences and try again." - This is where I came into this movie.

Mike, what is the intended use of the following text box?

"Tools" menu > "Account Settings" > "Outgoing Server (SMTP)" > "Outgoing Server (SMTP) Settings" > select the server for the account in the window and click [Edit...] button > "SMTP Server" dialog > "User Name" text box

Believe it or don't, I've had the "Email Address" text box in the Account Settings completely blank, yet I've still been able to send mail. How? The mail write module picked up an email address from the "User Name" text box in the "SMTP Server" dialog (above). It's not supposed to, but under certain circumstances (which I've not been able to make repeatable), it does.

I will continue to experiment, but I'm getting really tired of TBird.

Ciao

[Mike Easter]

Mark Filipak wrote:
> Mike. I really do know what a mail client should do. I used Eudora for
> 10 years, then TBird for 10 years. I'm increasingly unhappy with TBird.
> I've never been able to get news groups with TBird.

The moz news server does not require a user/pass nor any security, so
its settings are like this:

Server type: nntp
Server name: news.mozilla.org Port: 119
Security settings: connection security none
I recommend to uncheck both the check for new messages boxes
Uncheck Always request authentication

The initiation of creating a new news account can start from the Account
settings using the menu at the bottom of the left pane called Account
actions then Add other account or it can start from File/ New/ Other
accounts.

> I'm now getting this:
> "An error occurred while sending mail. The mail server responded: 5.7.0
> Must issue a STARTTLS command first. k24sm95449058yhd.5 - gsmtp. Please
> verify that your email address is correct in your Mail preferences and
> try again." - This is where I came into this movie.

Neither gmail's IMAP nor SMTP servers are set for STARTTLS on my system.
For gmail IMAP I use:

Server type IMAP Mail Server
Server name imap.googlemail.com Port 993
Connection security SSL/TLS
Authentication method normal password
Both check for new messages are checked
The IMAP server also shows the outgoing server as smtp.googlemail.com

In the outgoing server section:
Outgoing server smtp.googlemail.com
Port 465
Authentication method normal password
connection security SSL/TLS

The only mail server I have among earthlink, yahoo, gmail, and live.com
which I have configured to use STARTTLS is MS live hotmail or outlook
smtp server which is:
server name smtp.live.com
port 587
authentication normal password
security STARTTLS

I have about 10 news/nntp accounts and none of them use connection security.

Gmail has a troublehsooting section which tells you how to use telnet to
demonstrate your ability to connect to the mail server if you are having
trouble sending. There is a dialog that can reach this help:

http://support.google.com/mail/bin/static.py?hl=en&page=ts.cs&ts=1692342

Troubleshoot pop problems - Yes the address worked - Where are you
encountering problems - Sending mail

Then it tells you how telnet to smtp.gmail.com on port 465 to see if the
telnet test clears or gives an error

> Mike, what is the intended use of the following text box?
>
> "Tools" menu > "Account Settings" > "Outgoing Server (SMTP)" > "Outgoing
> Server (SMTP) Settings" > select the server for the account in the
> window and click [Edit...] button > "SMTP Server" dialog > "User Name"
> text box

That allows you to be able to send mail by authenticating.

> Believe it or don't, I've had the "Email Address" text box in the
> Account Settings completely blank, yet I've still been able to send
> mail. How? The mail write module picked up an email address from the
> "User Name" text box in the "SMTP Server" dialog (above). It's not
> supposed to, but under certain circumstances (which I've not been able
> to make repeatable), it does.

Let's just stick with the configurations which we know to work. Perhaps
the server was honoring smtp after pop (or imap) or was getting the
user/pass from the manager. The user/pass is stored in the password
manager which you can see in your Preferences or Options (windows) under
Security/ Passwords/ Saved passwords - then the smtp server's line



--
Mike Easter

[Mike Easter]

Mike Easter wrote:
> Mark Filipak wrote:

>> I'm now getting this:
>> "An error occurred while sending mail. The mail server responded: 5.7.0
>> Must issue a STARTTLS command first. k24sm95449058yhd.5 - gsmtp. Please
>> verify that your email address is correct in your Mail preferences and
>> try again." - This is where I came into this movie.

> Gmail has a troublehsooting section which tells you how to use telnet to
> demonstrate your ability to connect to the mail server if you are having
> trouble sending.

Here's a more general gmail help for sending problems:

http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=78775&ctx=cb&src=cb&cbid=159wb17du2k0l


That one has 6 different things to check before you get to the telnet test.


--
Mike Easter

[Chris Ramsden]

Mike Easter wrote:

>
> You really only need one smtp server, no matter how many nyms you have.
> Also I have several different email provider accounts which all use
> the same smtp.
>
> But if you are going to have different personas, you have to pay
> attention to how you handle your mail so that mail which comes to moz or
> wiki or imdb gets answered with a From that persona.
>
>

I beg to differ.

Gmail smtp is a special case. They offer a unique smtp setup per
account. The headers of messages sent through the gmail smtp server are
adjusted by gmail to appear to be from the gmail address associated with
that smtp server. Therefore you need to set up each distinct gmail
address/account with its own gmail smtp server account (assuming that
you're committed to using gmail to send) to keep the "from" addresses
consistent with the sent message.

This is all clouded by the facility offered by gmail whereby you can use
a gmail account on behalf of other accounts, so long as you have
registered these other accounts with them. You can then set up these
alternatives as additional identities to the principal gmail account in
Thunderbird. You do have to be careful to pick the correct identity when
using this facility to send. In theory, you could add each of your
multiple gmail addresses as an alias (alternative identity) to the
principal account. I think it's easier to keep them distinct an separate.

Chris.

[Mike Easter]

Chris Ramsden wrote:
> Mike Easter wrote:
>
>>
>> You really only need one smtp server, no matter how many nyms you have.
>> Also I have several different email provider accounts which all use
>> the same smtp.
>>
>> But if you are going to have different personas, you have to pay
>> attention to how you handle your mail so that mail which comes to moz or
>> wiki or imdb gets answered with a From that persona.
>>
>>
> I beg to differ.
>
> Gmail smtp is a special case. They offer a unique smtp setup per
> account. The headers of messages sent through the gmail smtp server are
> adjusted by gmail to appear to be from the gmail address associated with
> that smtp server. Therefore you need to set up each distinct gmail
> address/account with its own gmail smtp server account (assuming that
> you're committed to using gmail to send) to keep the "from" addresses
> consistent with the sent message.

You are correct. I had confused earthlink's behavior in that regard
with gmail's.

That is, I routinely use an earthlink smtp server with a gmail From
address and EL 'respects' the From I use. But when I tested gmail for
the same behavior, gmail replaced the From I used with the From of the
account used for client to smtp server.

Gmail describes how they allow the use of an alternate address (by
webmail or client) and how the From and Sender are handled here.

http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=22370&ctx=cb&src=cb&cbid=v7zcks61hsdl&cbrank=3
If you've already configured the alternate address, your message will
be sent from:othera...@domain.com, sender:user...@gmail.com,
regardless of which custom from configuration you chose.


That is more 'legitimate' than the way EL does it.


--
Mike Easter

[Arivald]

W dniu 2013-02-16 06:48, Mark Filipak pisze:

> Thank you for your reply, Mike. Why doesn't this work as you describe
> for me?
>
> Kindly reread my example. You have been too brief in your thinking about
> it - I told you this is hard to grasp.
>
> What I am claiming is that I have a distinct SMTP server setting for
> each account - that was NOT my intention, but was what TB did when I
> created the accounts. (The apparent URL of all of the servers are the
> same: "smtp.googlemail.com".)

This is problem for You? Why?
From application point of view it is safer to have distinct settings
for each account.

> But if TB loses track of which (apparently
> identical-looking) server is associated with which account, TB screws up
> the headers.

I suspect it is not TB who make mess. TB identify accounts using unique
keys.
Problem is that if all of SMTP servers have same user-friendly name
(automatically derived from host name), so when You try select SMTP
server in account settings, You never know You select correctly.

I suggest You to go to Accounts setup, select SMTP server settings, then
rename it from "smtp.gmail.com" to "username smtp.gmail.com", where
"username" is login name for this SMTP.

Then You will be able to select correct SMTP for account.

> I know that an SMTP server is an SMTP server and that they're supposed
> to be all created equal, but that's not how TB works. That's why I'm
> upset with TB.

Not really equal. Every SMTP require login and password (except crappy
spam-machines). This login can be used by SMTP server to set rights for
connection, for example if You use "markfilipak.mozilla" login, you may
be not able to send mail as "markfilipak.wikipedia", because form server
point of view it is different account.

BTW Your problem with "Return-Path" header may be caused by GMail,
exactly because You use different SMTP to send mail.
AFAIK TB did not send this header. TB can, optionally, send "Reply-To"
header, if You select different reply address while composing.

--
Arivald

[Arivald]

W dniu 2013-02-16 07:40, Mark Filipak pisze:

> Mike. I really do know what a mail client should do. I used Eudora for
> 10 years, then TBird for 10 years. I'm increasingly unhappy with TBird.
> I've never been able to get news groups with TBird.

Really? It is so simple...
Here is, lone of many, detailed instruction:

https://wiki.engr.illinois.edu/display/tsg/Mozilla+Thunderbird+news+reader+configuration

>
> I'm now getting this:
> "An error occurred while sending mail. The mail server responded: 5.7.0
> Must issue a STARTTLS command first. k24sm95449058yhd.5 - gsmtp. Please
> verify that your email address is correct in your Mail preferences and
> try again." - This is where I came into this movie.

AFAIK Gmail do not use STARTTLS. Switch to SSL/TLS.

> Mike, what is the intended use of the following text box?
>
> "Tools" menu > "Account Settings" > "Outgoing Server (SMTP)" > "Outgoing
> Server (SMTP) Settings" > select the server for the account in the
> window and click [Edit...] button > "SMTP Server" dialog > "User Name"
> text box

Just username. Same username like in POP3 settings. And when TB asks for
SMTP password, use same password like for POP3.

> Believe it or don't, I've had the "Email Address" text box in the
> Account Settings completely blank, yet I've still been able to send
> mail. How? The mail write module picked up an email address from the
> "User Name" text box in the "SMTP Server" dialog (above). It's not
> supposed to, but under certain circumstances (which I've not been able
> to make repeatable), it does.

It just detect username is not set yet, then automatically copy username
from POP3 settings.

> I will continue to experiment, but I'm getting really tired of TBird.
>

If You really tired, stop experiments. Instead just follow instructions
(for example Gmail instruction how to setup TB).

http://support.google.com/mail/bin/static.py?hl=en&ts=1668960&page=ts.cs

--
Arivald

[Mark Filipak]

Hi Arivald. I couldn't figure out how to edit (unobfuscate) your email address to make a good email address... sorry.

You wrote: "I suspect it is not TB who make mess." Yes it does. "TB identify accounts using unique keys." True, but TB occasionally screws up. When that happens the accounts can't be used until they're fixed. That involves me having to figure out the keys (simple enumeration, actually). Does giving disk folders & files numbers instead of descriptive names really improve performance all that much. Ah, well, just another reason to hate TB.

You also wrote: "I suggest You to go to Accounts setup, select SMTP server settings, then rename it from 'smtp.gmail.com' to 'username smtp.gmail.com'." - I did exactly that several years ago upon the first occasion that TB (which NEVER screws up), screwed up.

I think TB is too fragile and is getting more fragile with each successive version. Too much basic architecture is flawed, it's getting too hard to identify what needs to be fixed, and it's getting too hard to convince the developers to put forth the effort to fix it.

Ciao - Mark.

[Mark Filipak]

I'm sorry Arivald. I have over 40 separate gmail accounts in TB. I do know that gmail doesn't use STARTTLS, so why is TB telling me that gmail responded to use STARTTLS. That's bogus. TB is getting no such response from gmail. So how is TB screwing up?

Regarding the text boxes, TB has TOO MANY KNOBS. Redundancy is part of TB's problems. That's my point.

Thanks everyone for your help throughout time. I'll stop bitching now. - M.

[Ed Mullen]

Mark Filipak wrote:
> I'm sorry Arivald. I have over 40 separate gmail accounts in TB. I do
> know that gmail doesn't use STARTTLS, so why is TB telling me that gmail
> responded to use STARTTLS. That's bogus. TB is getting no such response
> from gmail. So how is TB screwing up?

I use IMAP with my gmail account. Here are the settings I use in
SeaMonkey. Should work as well in TB.

Server name: imap.gmail.com
Port: 993
User name: your gmail address
Connection security: SSL/TLS
Authentication method: Normal password

Outging server: smtp.gmail.com
Port: 587
User name: your gmail address
Authentication Method: normal password
Connection security: STARTTLS

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/
Can vegetarians eat animal crackers?

[Richard]

I use three different email providers, local ISP, Netscape and Gmail and
have set this up no problem? TB rocks for me and always has, would like
an Android version though.