Under System Requirements for SeaMonkey Windows 8 is not mentioned. Why? Does SM not work on Windows 8 (desktop not Metro)? I need it to work because a Windows 8 computer is on its way. and ALL 8 of my EMail addresses are POP only. I'm planning on using SeaMonkey Mail but now I am worried about it working on Windows 8.
Desiree wrote:
> Under System Requirements for SeaMonkey Windows 8 is not mentioned. Why?
> Does SM not work on Windows 8 (desktop not Metro)? I need it to work because
> a Windows 8 computer is on its way. and ALL 8 of my EMail addresses are POP
> only. I'm planning on using SeaMonkey Mail but now I am worried about it
> working on Windows 8.
> Base on what I did not read I have to presume SM will not support
> Windows 8.
The presumption might be valid, on the basis solely of that document,
but historically Seamonkey has a first-class record of tracking
Windows releases, and I cannot imagine for one moment that Windows 8
(love it or loathe it*) will be any different in that respect.
Philip Taylor
--------
* Microsoft have the uncanny knack of taking one step forwards
with alternate releases of Windows and two steps back with the
next release; Windows 7, whilst its search facilities are
abysmal, is not bad, and is certainly far more efficient than
XP. I therefore have little hope for Windows 8 being anything
other than "The new Vista" :-(
>> Base on what I did not read I have to presume SM will not support
>> Windows 8.
> The presumption might be valid, on the basis solely of that document,
> but historically Seamonkey has a first-class record of tracking
> Windows releases, and I cannot imagine for one moment that Windows 8
> (love it or loathe it*) will be any different in that respect.
> Philip Taylor
> --------
> * Microsoft have the uncanny knack of taking one step forwards
> with alternate releases of Windows and two steps back with the
> next release; Windows 7, whilst its search facilities are
> abysmal, is not bad, and is certainly far more efficient than
> XP. I therefore have little hope for Windows 8 being anything
> other than "The new Vista" :-(
I can't imagine Windows 8 not being supported eventually...but what about NOW? How soon? My present computer is dying and it's old. My new one arrives next week. Should I install SM or not? I am NOT referring to a version of SM that will work on Metro. I will be on Desktop most of the time (all of the time if I can figure out how to do that).
Desiree wrote:
> Under System Requirements for SeaMonkey Windows 8 is not mentioned. Why?
Because AFAIK no-one has tried it yet. Personally, I'll skip Win 8, and I could imagine other developers will do, too. Now if we had a developer (or active community member) on Win 8 and got a confirmation that everything was running OK there, I'd feel a lot better with listing Win 8 under System Requirements.
> Does SM not work on Windows 8 (desktop not Metro)?
As I said I don't know, but I'm almost 100% sure it won't run on used-to-be-called Metro since (AFAIK and in contrast to FF) SM has no specific code for it.
Jens Hatlak wrote:
> Desiree wrote:
>> Under System Requirements for SeaMonkey Windows 8 is not mentioned. Why?
> Because AFAIK no-one has tried it yet. Personally, I'll skip Win 8, and
> I could imagine other developers will do, too. Now if we had a developer
> (or active community member) on Win 8 and got a confirmation that
> everything was running OK there, I'd feel a lot better with listing Win
> 8 under System Requirements.
>> Does SM not work on Windows 8 (desktop not Metro)?
> As I said I don't know, but I'm almost 100% sure it won't run on
> used-to-be-called Metro since (AFAIK and in contrast to FF) SM has no
> specific code for it.
> Greetings,
But does/will Windows 8 not offer a compatibility mode, as have
previous versions of Windows, that will allow almost all applications
compiled for an earlier release of the O/S to run on the most
recent platform ? I really cannot imagine Microsoft being so
stupid as to bring out a new version of Windows that offers
no compatibility-mode hooks.
Philip TAYLOR wrote:
> But does/will Windows 8 not offer a compatibility mode, as have
> previous versions of Windows, that will allow almost all applications
> compiled for an earlier release of the O/S to run on the most recent
> platform ? I really cannot imagine Microsoft being so stupid as to
> bring out a new version of Windows that offers no compatibility-mode
> hooks.
> Desiree wrote:
>> Under System Requirements for SeaMonkey Windows 8 is not mentioned. Why?
> Because AFAIK no-one has tried it yet. Personally, I'll skip Win 8, and I > could imagine other developers will do, too. Now if we had a developer (or > active community member) on Win 8 and got a confirmation that everything > was running OK there, I'd feel a lot better with listing Win 8 under > System Requirements.
>> Does SM not work on Windows 8 (desktop not Metro)?
> As I said I don't know, but I'm almost 100% sure it won't run on > used-to-be-called Metro since (AFAIK and in contrast to FF) SM has no > specific code for it.
I wanted to skip Win 8 also, but I want a higher end desktop and good, midstream nVidia card. With Dell that means Win 8. The one higher end desktop (not Alienware) has only ATI cards if it comes with Win 7. So, I got Win 8 and nVidia 660 GTX. I didn't order earlier this year since Ivy Bridge processor came out partly because Dell was only offering ATI cards on this machine and two extremely crappy very lowstream nVidia cards. Now they have a good nVidia card, and more coming, but only with Win 8.
>> But does/will Windows 8 not offer a compatibility mode, as have
>> previous versions of Windows, that will allow almost all applications
>> compiled for an earlier release of the O/S to run on the most recent
>> platform ? I really cannot imagine Microsoft being so stupid as to
>> bring out a new version of Windows that offers no compatibility-mode
>> hooks.
I didn't think about compatibility mode. I'll install SeaMonkey and see if it works. I already have a problem though with the latest SM mail client on XP Pro virtual machine saying that the server for my main email address rejects the password. That password works fine on Sea Monkey 2.6.1.
> Under System Requirements for SeaMonkey Windows 8 is not mentioned. Why?
> Does SM not work on Windows 8 (desktop not Metro)?
I'm pretty sure it should work well enough in Classic desktop mode, but I don't think it has been tested yet - so please try and report back to us (esp. Jens who maintains the requirements page) how well it does!
Robert Kaiser wrote:
> Desiree schrieb:
>> Under System Requirements for SeaMonkey Windows 8 is not mentioned. Why?
>> Does SM not work on Windows 8 (desktop not Metro)?
> I'm pretty sure it should work well enough in Classic desktop mode, but
> I don't think it has been tested yet - so please try and report back to
> us (esp. Jens who maintains the requirements page) how well it does!
> Robert Kaiser
I can say that Firefox does work in W8. Haven't tried SM yet but I have to assume it will too. I'll try it in a bit and report back.
-- Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/ How do you tell when you run out of invisible ink?
Sailfish wrote:
> My bloviated meandering follows what Desiree graced us with on 11/8/2012
> 5:27 PM:
>> Under System Requirements for SeaMonkey Windows 8 is not mentioned.
>> Why? Does SM not work on Windows 8 (desktop not Metro)? I need it to
>> work because a Windows 8 computer is on its way. and ALL 8 of my EMail
>> addresses are POP only. I'm planning on using SeaMonkey Mail but now I
>> am worried about it working on Windows 8.
> Environment: Win8 (win32) 64 bit 5/31/12 Release Preview as VirtualBox
> Guest
> I just downloaded/installed SM2.13.2 and it worked fine. I seriously
> doubt that it will work with winRT (Atom) tablets, though.
Desiree wrote:
> I wanted to skip Win 8 also, but I want a higher end desktop and good,
> midstream nVidia card.
So? Buy a desktop computer that fits your needs and includes Win 7, ignoring the graphics card (read: including the most crappy one if the the system specs otherwise match your requirements), then buy the graphics card you want and put it inside. Sell the other one, if you want.
I mean, if you were talking about a laptop I'd understand the problem, but here I don't see it.
Anyway, Win 8 is reality, and I'd be surprised if SM didn't run with it. And if there are problems, I guess they will be addressed sooner than later (with respect to Classic mode only of course).
>>> Base on what I did not read I have to presume SM will not support
>>> Windows 8.
>> The presumption might be valid, on the basis solely of that document,
>> but historically Seamonkey has a first-class record of tracking
>> Windows releases, and I cannot imagine for one moment that Windows 8
>> (love it or loathe it*) will be any different in that respect.
>> Philip Taylor
>> --------
>> * Microsoft have the uncanny knack of taking one step forwards
>> with alternate releases of Windows and two steps back with the
>> next release; Windows 7, whilst its search facilities are
>> abysmal, is not bad, and is certainly far more efficient than
>> XP. I therefore have little hope for Windows 8 being anything
>> other than "The new Vista" :-(
> I can't imagine Windows 8 not being supported eventually...but what about
> NOW? How soon? My present computer is dying and it's old. My new one arrives
> next week. Should I install SM or not? I am NOT referring to a version of SM
> that will work on Metro. I will be on Desktop most of the time (all of the
> time if I can figure out how to do that).
Desiree,
It looks like we have stirred the Hornets Nest with your question.
The bottom line for you is how to get your e-mail if SM will not install.
You have a few options:
1. If all your e-mail accounts are hosted by your ISP you can use their Web Mail interface and access to your mail.
2. If your mail accounts are hosted by different mail servers you can use a third party access point like mail2web.com to access all your accounts. ( http://www.mail2web.com/ )
> Desiree wrote:
>> I wanted to skip Win 8 also, but I want a higher end desktop and good,
>> midstream nVidia card.
> So? Buy a desktop computer that fits your needs and includes Win 7, > ignoring the graphics card (read: including the most crappy one if the > the system specs otherwise match your requirements), then buy the > graphics card you want and put it inside. Sell the other one, if you want.
> I mean, if you were talking about a laptop I'd understand the problem, > but here I don't see it.
> Anyway, Win 8 is reality, and I'd be surprised if SM didn't run with it. > And if there are problems, I guess they will be addressed sooner than > later (with respect to Classic mode only of course).
> Greetings,
> Jens
There are some (not essential) Firefox patches that we might want to port:
Bug 760671 - Hide the 'set as default browser' checkbox in the installer
for Windows 8.
Bug 760680 - Update shell integration default browser check for Windows 8.
Bug 764515 - When setting default browser in Windows 8, should also set
non http defaults.
Bug 790667 - Setting default browser should never prompt for UAC on
Windows 8.
Bug 791019 - Default file type association is broken on Windows 8
Bug 807357 - Windows 8 N builds should call SHChangeNotify as per
documentation.
There are probably other patches/bugs. Does anyone have a reliable
Bugzilla query to find these?
Desiree wrote:
> Under System Requirements for SeaMonkey Windows 8 is not mentioned. Why?
> Does SM not work on Windows 8 (desktop not Metro)? I need it to work because
> a Windows 8 computer is on its way. and ALL 8 of my EMail addresses are POP
> only. I'm planning on using SeaMonkey Mail but now I am worried about it
> working on Windows 8.
As reported in other threads, yes, SM works in W8, no compatability mode, no tweaks, nada. It works. As does Firefox. Haven't tested Thunderbird but I couldn't care less.
-- Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/ If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.
>>>> Base on what I did not read I have to presume SM will not support
>>>> Windows 8.
>>> The presumption might be valid, on the basis solely of that document,
>>> but historically Seamonkey has a first-class record of tracking
>>> Windows releases, and I cannot imagine for one moment that Windows 8
>>> (love it or loathe it*) will be any different in that respect.
>>> Philip Taylor
>>> --------
>>> * Microsoft have the uncanny knack of taking one step forwards
>>> with alternate releases of Windows and two steps back with the
>>> next release; Windows 7, whilst its search facilities are
>>> abysmal, is not bad, and is certainly far more efficient than
>>> XP. I therefore have little hope for Windows 8 being anything
>>> other than "The new Vista" :-(
>> I can't imagine Windows 8 not being supported eventually...but what about
>> NOW? How soon? My present computer is dying and it's old. My new one >> arrives
>> next week. Should I install SM or not? I am NOT referring to a version of >> SM
>> that will work on Metro. I will be on Desktop most of the time (all of >> the
>> time if I can figure out how to do that).
> Desiree,
> It looks like we have stirred the Hornets Nest with your question.
> The bottom line for you is how to get your e-mail if SM will not install.
> You have a few options:
> 1. If all your e-mail accounts are hosted by your ISP you can use their > Web Mail interface and access to your mail.
> 2. If your mail accounts are hosted by different mail servers you can use > a third party access point like mail2web.com to access all your accounts. > ( http://www.mail2web.com/ )
> Michael G
My most used account is not with my ISP. I cannot stand my ISP's web mail. It is horrible. I never use it. I have used mail2web.com several years ago when on vacation and it is ok for AWHILE. But I need a mail client on my computer...not web mail as a permanent solution. I had assumed I could use Sea Monkey. Claws and Postbox 3 work on Windows 8. Thunderbird works on Windows 8. I haven't used Thunderbird in years but I guess I may have to try it.
> Desiree wrote:
>> Under System Requirements for SeaMonkey Windows 8 is not mentioned. Why?
>> Does SM not work on Windows 8 (desktop not Metro)? I need it to work >> because
>> a Windows 8 computer is on its way. and ALL 8 of my EMail addresses are >> POP
>> only. I'm planning on using SeaMonkey Mail but now I am worried about it
>> working on Windows 8.
> As reported in other threads, yes, SM works in W8, no compatability mode, > no tweaks, nada. It works. As does Firefox. Haven't tested Thunderbird > but I couldn't care less.
> -- > Ed Mullen
> http://edmullen.net/ > If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.
That's good to hear. As for Thunderbird, I have friends at dslreports who have Win 8 and have Thunderbird working fine and a Google search finds sites where folks are recommending Thunderbird as the email client to use on Win 8. But I'd like to use SeaMonkey mail if it works.
Ed Mullen wrote:
> Desiree wrote:
>> Under System Requirements for SeaMonkey Windows 8 is not mentioned. Why?
>> Does SM not work on Windows 8 (desktop not Metro)? I need it to work
>> because
>> a Windows 8 computer is on its way. and ALL 8 of my EMail addresses
>> are POP
>> only. I'm planning on using SeaMonkey Mail but now I am worried about it
>> working on Windows 8.
> As reported in other threads, yes, SM works in W8, no compatability
> mode, no tweaks, nada. It works. As does Firefox. Haven't tested
> Thunderbird but I couldn't care less.
I think it would be good to specify the type of hardware used. I think there is going to be some confusion over the different types of Windows 8. Make sure people know it's not the tablet version.
> Ed Mullen wrote:
>> Desiree wrote:
>>> Under System Requirements for SeaMonkey Windows 8 is not mentioned. Why?
>>> Does SM not work on Windows 8 (desktop not Metro)? I need it to work
>>> because
>>> a Windows 8 computer is on its way. and ALL 8 of my EMail addresses
>>> are POP
>>> only. I'm planning on using SeaMonkey Mail but now I am worried about it
>>> working on Windows 8.
>> As reported in other threads, yes, SM works in W8, no compatability
>> mode, no tweaks, nada. It works. As does Firefox. Haven't tested
>> Thunderbird but I couldn't care less.
> I think it would be good to specify the type of hardware used. I think > there is going to be some confusion over the different types of Windows 8. > Make sure people know it's not the tablet version.
> Jim
Now I am confused. I thought Win 8 was Metro or Desktop and when on Desktop you keep getting flipped into Metro when you don't want that. So, you have to do all sorts of third party fixes and tweaks to keep from being flipped to Metro which a desktop user wants to avoid completely, right? The real difference is what sort of monitor you have. I have no intention of buying a 24 Dell Ultrsharp that is touch screen! YUCK! You need Metro for touch...what else would you need it for? So, hardware that has a touch screen, some laptops and tablets and ultrabooks would require Metro ...everything else would be Desktop side. Right?
> "Jim Dell" <del...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:MoydnQFUK6elzwPNnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d@mozilla.org...
>> Ed Mullen wrote:
>>> Desiree wrote:
>>>> Under System Requirements for SeaMonkey Windows 8 is not mentioned. Why?
>>>> Does SM not work on Windows 8 (desktop not Metro)? I need it to work
>>>> because
>>>> a Windows 8 computer is on its way. and ALL 8 of my EMail addresses
>>>> are POP
>>>> only. I'm planning on using SeaMonkey Mail but now I am worried about it
>>>> working on Windows 8.
>>> As reported in other threads, yes, SM works in W8, no compatability
>>> mode, no tweaks, nada. It works. As does Firefox. Haven't tested
>>> Thunderbird but I couldn't care less.
>> I think it would be good to specify the type of hardware used. I think
>> there is going to be some confusion over the different types of Windows 8.
>> Make sure people know it's not the tablet version.
>> Jim
> Now I am confused. I thought Win 8 was Metro or Desktop and when on Desktop
> you keep getting flipped into Metro when you don't want that. So, you have
> to do all sorts of third party fixes and tweaks to keep from being flipped
> to Metro which a desktop user wants to avoid completely, right? The real
> difference is what sort of monitor you have. I have no intention of buying a
> 24 Dell Ultrsharp that is touch screen! YUCK! You need Metro for
> touch...what else would you need it for? So, hardware that has a touch
> screen, some laptops and tablets and ultrabooks would require Metro
> ...everything else would be Desktop side. Right?
Desiree wrote:
> "Jim Dell" <del...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:MoydnQFUK6elzwPNnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d@mozilla.org...
>> Ed Mullen wrote:
>>> Desiree wrote:
>>>> Under System Requirements for SeaMonkey Windows 8 is not mentioned. Why?
>>>> Does SM not work on Windows 8 (desktop not Metro)? I need it to work
>>>> because
>>>> a Windows 8 computer is on its way. and ALL 8 of my EMail addresses
>>>> are POP
>>>> only. I'm planning on using SeaMonkey Mail but now I am worried about it
>>>> working on Windows 8.
>>> As reported in other threads, yes, SM works in W8, no compatability
>>> mode, no tweaks, nada. It works. As does Firefox. Haven't tested
>>> Thunderbird but I couldn't care less.
>> I think it would be good to specify the type of hardware used. I think
>> there is going to be some confusion over the different types of Windows 8.
>> Make sure people know it's not the tablet version.
>> Jim
> Now I am confused. I thought Win 8 was Metro or Desktop and when on Desktop
> you keep getting flipped into Metro when you don't want that. So, you have
> to do all sorts of third party fixes and tweaks to keep from being flipped
> to Metro which a desktop user wants to avoid completely, right? The real
> difference is what sort of monitor you have. I have no intention of buying a
> 24 Dell Ultrsharp that is touch screen! YUCK! You need Metro for
> touch...what else would you need it for? So, hardware that has a touch
> screen, some laptops and tablets and ultrabooks would require Metro
> ...everything else would be Desktop side. Right?
> Is there is special Tablet version of Win 8?
There are different versions, three if I remember correctly. PC, and two versions for tablets with two different processors. I'm testing it on an Intel PC, 3 GB RAM, dual-core 3 GHz Pentium D. No touch screen.
I've only made three tweaks, very simple. One brings back the W7 Aero Peek button on the task bar for a quick way to get to the desktop, another is to boot to the desktop, and the third was a free utility to bring back the Start menu. I spent a total of about 5 minutes on all three.
And I say "testing" because after running the W8 Upgrade Assistant I learned I'll have to upgrade Office 2003 since it's not compatible with W8. So I've got this system setup with a dual-boot startup with both W7 and W8 to choose from.
-- Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/ Why do they call it the Department of Interior when they are in charge of everything outdoors?
>>>>> Base on what I did not read I have to presume SM will not support
>>>>> Windows 8.
>>>> The presumption might be valid, on the basis solely of that document,
>>>> but historically Seamonkey has a first-class record of tracking
>>>> Windows releases, and I cannot imagine for one moment that Windows 8
>>>> (love it or loathe it*) will be any different in that respect.
>>>> Philip Taylor
>>>> --------
>>>> * Microsoft have the uncanny knack of taking one step forwards
>>>> with alternate releases of Windows and two steps back with the
>>>> next release; Windows 7, whilst its search facilities are
>>>> abysmal, is not bad, and is certainly far more efficient than
>>>> XP. I therefore have little hope for Windows 8 being anything
>>>> other than "The new Vista" :-(
>>> I can't imagine Windows 8 not being supported eventually...but what about
>>> NOW? How soon? My present computer is dying and it's old. My new one
>>> arrives
>>> next week. Should I install SM or not? I am NOT referring to a version of
>>> SM
>>> that will work on Metro. I will be on Desktop most of the time (all of
>>> the
>>> time if I can figure out how to do that).
>> Desiree,
>> It looks like we have stirred the Hornets Nest with your question.
>> The bottom line for you is how to get your e-mail if SM will not install.
>> You have a few options:
>> 1. If all your e-mail accounts are hosted by your ISP you can use their
>> Web Mail interface and access to your mail.
>> 2. If your mail accounts are hosted by different mail servers you can use
>> a third party access point like mail2web.com to access all your accounts.
>> ( http://www.mail2web.com/ )
>> Michael G
> My most used account is not with my ISP. I cannot stand my ISP's web mail.
> It is horrible. I never use it. I have used mail2web.com several years ago
> when on vacation and it is ok for AWHILE. But I need a mail client on my
> computer...not web mail as a permanent solution. I had assumed I could use
> Sea Monkey. Claws and Postbox 3 work on Windows 8. Thunderbird works on
> Windows 8. I haven't used Thunderbird in years but I guess I may have to
> try it.
Desiree,
You could install Thunderbird for a few months (years) until SM becomes compatibles with Win 8. Then install SM and migrate all your profile accounts from TB to SM.
Or, you just may find you like the TB mail client well enough to switch permanently.
>>>>> Base on what I did not read I have to presume SM will not support
>>>>> Windows 8.
>>>> The presumption might be valid, on the basis solely of that document,
>>>> but historically Seamonkey has a first-class record of tracking
>>>> Windows releases, and I cannot imagine for one moment that Windows 8
>>>> (love it or loathe it*) will be any different in that respect.
>>>> Philip Taylor
>>>> --------
>>>> * Microsoft have the uncanny knack of taking one step forwards
>>>> with alternate releases of Windows and two steps back with the
>>>> next release; Windows 7, whilst its search facilities are
>>>> abysmal, is not bad, and is certainly far more efficient than
>>>> XP. I therefore have little hope for Windows 8 being anything
>>>> other than "The new Vista" :-(
>>> I can't imagine Windows 8 not being supported eventually...but what about
>>> NOW? How soon? My present computer is dying and it's old. My new one
>>> arrives
>>> next week. Should I install SM or not? I am NOT referring to a version of
>>> SM
>>> that will work on Metro. I will be on Desktop most of the time (all of
>>> the
>>> time if I can figure out how to do that).
>> Desiree,
>> It looks like we have stirred the Hornets Nest with your question.
>> The bottom line for you is how to get your e-mail if SM will not install.
>> You have a few options:
>> 1. If all your e-mail accounts are hosted by your ISP you can use their
>> Web Mail interface and access to your mail.
>> 2. If your mail accounts are hosted by different mail servers you can use
>> a third party access point like mail2web.com to access all your accounts.
>> ( http://www.mail2web.com/ )
>> Michael G
> My most used account is not with my ISP. I cannot stand my ISP's web mail.
> It is horrible. I never use it. I have used mail2web.com several years ago
> when on vacation and it is ok for AWHILE. But I need a mail client on my
> computer...not web mail as a permanent solution. I had assumed I could use
> Sea Monkey. Claws and Postbox 3 work on Windows 8. Thunderbird works on
> Windows 8. I haven't used Thunderbird in years but I guess I may have to
> try it.
Thunderbird 17.0 will be both a mainstream, and ESR version, due to the new release and governance plan.
Scheduled to be released on 20-11-2012, along with Firefox.
Thunderbird 17.0 has the new Australis theme, along with a new AppMenu button (old menu bar still exists), along with several features introduced in previous versions such as Chat, and Big Files.
-- Fedora 17 (64-bit) KDE 4.9.2
Thunderbird Beta (17.0) Install and test it
And it is said that "The [insert deity of choice] helps those who choose to help themselves."
> Under System Requirements for SeaMonkey Windows 8 is not mentioned. Why?
> Does SM not work on Windows 8 (desktop not Metro)? I need it to work because
> a Windows 8 computer is on its way. and ALL 8 of my EMail addresses are POP
> only. I'm planning on using SeaMonkey Mail but now I am worried about it
> working on Windows 8.
If Windows 8 is Windows NT 6.2, it appears that users are trying it from the "Seamonkey latest release channel daily active installations by OS" section of
Scroll down to version 2.13 to see how many are active.
The first table is the number of SeaMonkey downloads.
Working for them? I dunno.
-- Fedora 17 (64-bit) KDE 4.9.2
Thunderbird Beta (17.0) Install and test it
And it is said that "The [insert deity of choice] helps those who choose to help themselves."
