"Proactive support" -- reaching out to people unaware of SUMO
David Tenser
to users not aware of SUMO but in need of support.
Many users post about their problems with Firefox in various channels,
without being aware of SUMO. For example, people might post it on
twitter, or on facebook, or on their blogs. The general discussion has
been around what we could do to "get the word out" about SUMO to these
people, and it was suggested we would use e.g. the summarize.com
protocol to scan twitter for "firefox" and then have some automatic way
to turn support requests into a forum thread so people can provide the
answer there and automatically ping the user on twitter with the solution.
The core of the discussion is about whether or not it should be part of
our mission to do this reach out. Related to this is the twitter account
firefox_answers -- it's an example of how new users with problems in
Firefox can be reached and directed to the right place for support.
Thoughts?
My personal take on this is that people who want to help people out by
reaching them through channels like this should feel very entitled to do
so, but I'm not really convinced we should spend dev cycles on
implementing these hooks using e.g. summarize.com, since people can
pretty easily do it manually (creating a live bookmark about tweets on
"firefox" is straightforward and works quite well if you want to provide
occasional help).
Jason Barnabe (np)
support. These people must prefer whatever method they're using over
sumo, because it's not like we're hard to find (prominently linked on
mozilla.com, in Firefox's help menu, #1 result for "firefox help",
"firefox support", etc.).
David Tenser
I mean people unaware of any support channels here -- people who post
openly about a problem/annoyance they have with Firefox but who hasn't
actually tried a working support channel (e.g., of course, SUMO)
Jason Barnabe (np)
> I mean people unaware of any support channels here -- people who post
> openly about a problem/annoyance they have with Firefox but who hasn't
> actually tried a working support channel (e.g., of course, SUMO)
I know. I'm saying that if they're not aware of sumo, then they simply
haven't looked for it. These people are choosing to use twitter or
whatever for their problems not because they can't find sumo, but
because they want to use twitter or whatever.
David Tenser
Right. And our goal is to help Firefox users solving their problem,
which is why I'm posting the discussion here to see if there is
something we can/should do about it. :)
(Also, I posted it here because there was a vague bug report about this
that didn't belong there.)
me at work
For backstory, why not link the bug and its discussion so that others
may read it?
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=442861
I for one have seen this proactive support already happen, and it even
led to a bug report:
http://getsatisfaction.com/mozilla/topics/firefox_crashed_again
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443824
The way it works is simple: Change a negative opinion into a positive
one. Simply saying "they didn't look for help" is not correct,
because often they don't think that sumo is a great place to get help.
I've got a bug I filed:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=436584
which Lucy told me has already been resolved, but ONLY in some sumo
forum thread. There is still no KB article on this, and I was
informed asking the question would be a better way to get an answer.
Unfortunately, I still have no answer:
http://support.mozilla.com/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?locale=en-US&comments_parentId=92674&forumId=1
Anyway, there is a problem with saying people did not look for help
and now they're venting on twitter. I have an example here of someone
venting that they DID look for help, did not receive any, and then
vented on twitter about it: http://getsatisfaction.com/mozilla/topics/tooltip_not_showing_up_in_my_firefox
Overall, I think there is a great opportunity here, and I have been
developing my ideas further. My current plan is basically a little
control center for helpers. I'll pull in mentions of Firefox in
various languages (a lot of Japanese posts about Firefox are made, but
we don't know if they are support requests are not), then give helpers
a way to categorize them. They can then use a central account (I have
a name idea but I want Mozilla to register it, not me, unless it would
be ok if I register it and then hand it over at a later time) to
respond to the user with a short canned message and a link to a page
that would help. For example, if a user is complaining about gmail
crashes, we'd send them to a page telling various ways that Firefox
could be crashing on Gmail, including the bad Skype extension. If a
user is complaining that a website doesn't allow Firefox, we'll give
them a message about how to visit the site and use Report Broken Web
Site. If a user is complaining about safebrowsing (I have seen a few
of these!), we'll send them a message and link detailing WHY a site
would be marked, how to see why a site was marked, and how to ignore
the message. Two such examples:
http://getsatisfaction.com/mozilla/topics/why_is_mdc_co_zw_listed_as_a_reported_attack_site
http://getsatisfaction.com/mozilla/topics/why_is_prc_gov_ph_listed_as_a_reported_attack_site
I think that by designing a command center for responding to tweets
and filing them away (in case someone responds to the support user,
their history can be pulled up), Mozilla can keep users and gain even
more by delivering a proactive experience, similar to Comcast's little
ComcastCares thing that has been in the news lately. Plus, happy
users tell their friends. If our goal is complete domination over
Internet Explorer (as it should be), we should give users a reason to
stay with Firefox, or even, to switch to Firefox (as covered in the
next link):
http://getsatisfaction.com/mozilla/topics/how_do_i_put_the_tab_bar_at_the_bottom_and_disable_spell_check
Sorry about the extremely long message, if any of it was confusing (as
it was written with no real goal or re-reading, heh) let me know. I
feel pretty strongly about proactive support and customer retention.
Jason Barnabe (np)
> Simply saying "they didn't look for help" is not correct,
> because often they don't think that sumo is a great place to get help.
> Anyway, there is a problem with saying people did not look for help
> and now they're venting on twitter. I have an example here of someone
> venting that they DID look for help, did not receive any, and then
> vented on twitter about it:http://getsatisfaction.com/mozilla/topics/tooltip_not_showing_up_in_m...
I'm not saying they didn't look for help, and I'm not saying that
they're venting. I'm saying they're using other sites to get help and
not looking for sumo.
We have limited resources and I think our time is best spent on users
looking for help on sumo itself. You don't have to spend any time
finding people to help on sumo, so you get the best "bang for your
buck". Of course, what individual contributors do is up to them, and
if they want to do non-sumo support, it's still a valued contribution.
Stephanie Daugherty
I think we should provide the tools to people that want to help with
this - done in a professional manner, it can only make Mozilla
products look better. A lot of people simply will go elsewhere
(meaning other products) rather than try to go to support, because
support is seen as more of a hassle than the problem itself. This kind
of proactive support brings a dissatisfied user to us, rather than
having them end up with a competing product, or just as bad, remaining
an unhappy customer that will spread discontent.
David Tenser
> On Jul 7, 12:35 pm, David Tenser <djst.mozi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Jason Barnabe (np) wrote:
>>> On Jul 7, 9:40 am, David Tenser <djst.mozi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I mean people unaware of any support channels here -- people who post
>>>> openly about a problem/annoyance they have with Firefox but who hasn't
>>>> actually tried a working support channel (e.g., of course, SUMO)
>>> I know. I'm saying that if they're not aware of sumo, then they simply
>>> haven't looked for it. These people are choosing to use twitter or
>>> whatever for their problems not because they can't find sumo, but
>>> because they want to use twitter or whatever.
>> Right. And our goal is to help Firefox users solving their problem,
>> which is why I'm posting the discussion here to see if there is
>> something we can/should do about it. :)
>>
>> (Also, I posted it here because there was a vague bug report about this
>> that didn't belong there.)
>
> For backstory, why not link the bug and its discussion so that others
> may read it?
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=442861
>
I just forgot that; thanks for providing the link!
David Tenser
Yes -- that's pretty much what I think as well. People should feel free
to do this if they want (and I very much support it in that respect),
but I don't think we should spend our limited resources on it at this point.
Cheng Wang
What's proposed here is about a half-step away from "It looks like you're not using Firefox, why don't I try to sell it to you" which is telemarketing which is SPAM which I think should violate some convention on not-doing-evil.
By all means I think we should make it easier for people to get their questions answered on sumo... which may include discussing advanced configuration options for things people want to change or improving search or getting more livechat hours or whatever... and also making it easier for people to know what we do (everything Firefox related) and do not (lots of random things but it doesn't hurt to ask) cover. If we get more helpers, I'm not even against supporting things like web development for Firefox or helping people find the right place to ask what they're asking. But I still think that it's absolutely vital that they come to us. Proactive in this case means obtrusive and I absolutely think it's a terrible idea.
Michael Connor
On 8-Jul-08, at 4:13 PM, Cheng Wang wrote:
> I personally think this is a little (a lot) invasive. I don't want
> to write a blog post about any product and get a "Hi, it looks like
> you may be complaining about something, why don't I send you blog
> comments and twitter pings to help?" Microsoft clipppy did that but
> at least you could turn it off. Sometimes I just want to gripe. If
> I needed help, I should have to initiate the contact with Mozilla.
Why? We've been doing this on an ad-hoc basis for years, and I have
never actually heard of someone being upset that we reached out in an
attempt to solve their problem. Obviously the approach style and tone
is critical, but if someone says "Firefox 3 is doing X and its
frustrating" and we contact them with an offer of help, either they're
not interested or they're happy that we're making the effort.
> If official support channels are hard to find, that's a different
> issue... maybe we should make a link on the official Mozilla start
> page or put up Google ads for "Unhappy with some aspect Firefox? Get
> one-on-one help customizing the browser to fit your needs from our
> Support Center".
That's not really the SUMO mission, is it? Not immediately relevant
here
> What's proposed here is about a half-step away from "It looks like
> you're not using Firefox, why don't I try to sell it to you" which
> is telemarketing which is SPAM which I think should violate some
> convention on not-doing-evil.
As I said, we do this frequently enough that it is not considered
evil. If someone is complaining about your product, its not evil at
all to attempt to rectify their complaint. I think your logic is a
little skewed here, especially since it seems to assume that the goal
is to convert people back to Firefox.
> By all means I think we should make it easier for people to get
> their questions answered on sumo... which may include discussing
> advanced configuration options for things people want to change or
> improving search or getting more livechat hours or whatever... and
> also making it easier for people to know what we do (everything
> Firefox related) and do not (lots of random things but it doesn't
> hurt to ask) cover. If we get more helpers, I'm not even against
> supporting things like web development for Firefox or helping people
> find the right place to ask what they're asking. But I still think
> that it's absolutely vital that they come to us. Proactive in this
> case means obtrusive and I absolutely think it's a terrible idea.
I think you're making some pretty flawed assumptions about what and
how and why we'd reach out to users. How about some examples:
"Firefox is a flaming piece of crap" == they don't want to use
Firefox. to each their own.
"I had to go back to Firefox 2/Safari/IE7 because I couldn't get X to
work" == the user would use Firefox, but had a problem they couldn't
solve. We should offer to help if viable.
"I can't get Firefox to stop crashing, HELP" == find a way to contact
that person, period. They might not find SUMO since they can't use
the browser, or they might have posted in the forums and not received
a reply, or hit live chat during a busy/closed period. Also, they
said "HELP" ;)
There's judgement and discretion that need to be applied here, for
sure, but saying we shouldn't help anyone who doesn't ask us directly
feels like a bad way to look at users.
-- Mike
David Tenser
I agree with this. As I said, if people want to monitor "outside"
channels for people requesting help, that sounds like a good idea to me
(because any way we can help our users is good at this point). That
said, our primary focus should be to build a kick-ass support channel
and we have plenty of users coming to us directly that I can't warrant
an organized proactive outreach.
I certainly don't draw an equal sign between proactive and obtrusive.
Frankly I don't see the connection at all, since we're talking about
people who post in social networks and as such actually _want_ to
socialize with people. To get help without being asked for it is
regarded as a very good thing, not at all obtrusive.
David Tenser
>
> I certainly don't draw an equal sign between proactive and obtrusive.
> Frankly I don't see the connection at all, since we're talking about
> people who post in social networks and as such actually _want_ to
> socialize with people. To get help without being asked for it is
> regarded as a very good thing, not at all obtrusive.
This was in response to Cheng Wang, of course. :)
Chris Ilias
How does the ping back work? In other words, if I blog about a problem
with Firefox, how will the answer get to me? Will I know where the
answer came from?
Is there any filtering, that can tell the difference between someone
simply mentioning Firefox, recommending Firefox, or actually having a
problem?
How do support contributors get notified/read outside support requests?
Do they get posted in the web forum?
What if the answer is wrong?
Cheng Wang
I agree a huge part is the subtext of the message. I think it's great that we help users ad hoc when we see a blog post with Firefox issues. I do it all the time on the blogs I read. But I DO NOT think it should be official and I feel strongly about this. It's one thing to have a friend e-mail you and say "hey I heard you may have XYZ problem, you should try this product I just found" it's another to have the manufacturer do it (even if you DO have the problem). The first is friendly advice (yay!) the second is spam. This feels like spam, targeted spam but spam nonetheless.
The other vibe I get is that of big-brother. I don't think we should be the kind of company that polices the kind of press we get, no matter where that press is coming from. Yes, ostensibly we're here to help people but if we monitor what people are saying about us and work quickly to address concerns, that can be easily taken the wrong way. If I have issues with a Google product on the Google forums or on forums talking about Google, I expect a quick response from staff. If I do so on my personal blog, I expect a response from one of my friends or no response at all. While Google is probably monitoring my blog, I like the delusion that what I say there is just viewed by people who have an interest in what I have to say, not to be viewed by people who want to fix what I say.
I think we should keep posting comments or even twittering or whatever we do to help users, even saying that "I work with/for Mozilla and here's how to fix X or you should try the support channels" is fine. I wouldn't object to branching out to official Firefox-related blogs/forums (although it's sometimes nice to have independent places to get help) but monitoring personal spaces on the internet (even ones that are kinda public) is just not OK. And definitely not OK is e-mailing them after they post to their blog or twitter or whatever.
A huge part of the internet is privacy through obscurity. Remember the big turmoil that Facebook had when it aggregated what was technically public information and make it visible to everyone? A lot of people considered it a violation of privacy. I don't even want to have that come up as an issue here.
I'm really beating on this point: let's draw an analogy to traditional media. If I had a complaint about a brand of detergent and I went to 1) a consumer advocacy group, 2) the store where I got it, 3) wrote a letter to the newspaper about it, 4) wrote the company about it, 5) went to a meeting of people who are really interested in detergents... all of these scenarios are where I'd expect a response from the company. However if I had a luncheon in the park with a dozen of my closest friends and I complained to them, I WOULD NOT expect someone from the company to come by and fix it. I would find that obtrusive, especially since it gives me the impression that people from that company are staked out at major parks with listening equipment. If one of my closest friends works for a detergent company and says "Hey I know a number to call" or "I know someone to talk to about that issue" that's totally different. If someone who works for the company just HAPPENS to be walking
by and says "I can't help but overhear, I'd like to make this right" that'd be OK as well. But having people whose job it is to stake out parks and listen for complaints... that's creepy. Please don't be creepy.
So: keep doing what you do but don't make it some kind of official thing, make it like the guy who's walking by offering help of his own accord. Plus the guy walking by doesn't even have to go by company policy. If company policy is you have to use it only with their bleach but the guy should have the right to say, really, it's better if you use Y brand's bleach on tough stains. Just like I tell some of my friends that they shouldn't upgrade to Firefox 3.
Cheng.
David Tenser
Fwiw, I think your reasoning is flawed in many ways (and a little long
-winded for my taste ;) ).
Your discussion about privacy makes no sense; people twitter or blog
about things because they _want_ people to see it. The whole purpose of
these communication forms are to "be seen." There's no signup needed or
password protection associated with accessing the information.
If I blogged about an annoying problem I had with Microsoft Office and
someone commented on the post telling me how to fix it, there's no way
I'd view that as spam. I'd be thankful that someone helped me solving
the problem, even if his name was Steve Ballmer.
Cheng Wang
I totally disagree. Public has way too many meanings on the internet. My point is while some things are in theory public, people tend to think of them like having small groups in a park. Yes it's public but it's still not comfortable to know that someone is listening in. It's fine if you offer casual help but we SHOULD NOT have a corporate policy that says we scan the airwaves and step in. I again illustrate with the Facebook example. All the information in the feeds were in theory totally public but that didn't give Facebook the right to collect it and make it easy to spy on your friends. Twittering publicly or blogging aren't because people want to be heard by the masses necessarily, it may mean they just don't think there's any harm in speaking in public. That doesn't equate to wanting to be listened in on or analyzed.
>
> If I blogged about an annoying problem I had with Microsoft Office and
> someone commented on the post telling me how to fix it, there's no way
> I'd view that as spam. I'd be thankful that someone helped me solving
> the problem, even if his name was Steve Ballmer.
Would you feel different if the person commenting on your blog was doing so because his JOB was to keep control of any bad publicity about Microsoft as much as possible? I mean right now we're couching this in friendly terms of "helping" but it amounts to the same thing: any help we give to someone who isn't happy generally amounts to telling them that the problem is with them and not with the Firefox product. People complain about Firefox and if their complaints can be addressed, we step in and address them... in their personal spaces. Again, it's fine if you know Steve Ballmer or you know Steve Ballmer reads your blog but if Steve Ballmer went around commenting in every blog where someone had trouble with Microsoft, that'd be creepy. Doubly so if Steve Ballmer was only allowed to help by providing canned official messages.
If it's agreed that some users aren't finding help, we should make it easier for them to find us. We shouldn't seek them out.
David Tenser
It's OK to disagree. As I said in a more casual discussion about this on
IRC (just for the record):
i've helped a lot of poeple like this throughout my 6 years of
volunteering for mozilla and not _once_ have i been met with a negative
response
don't worry about it, we'll not do a coordinated effort to help people
beyond sumo anytime soon because frankly we have lots of work left to do
here and plenty of users for anyone to get by.
i disagree with you on a fundamental level, and that's fine because it's
not a right and wrong discussion. it's a matter of personality. many
people like me don't mind being helped by a stranger, even if he has an
agenda. others do mind. some are even scared of it. i totally respect
that, but don't get hung up on the fact that we disagree -- it's not a
problem and shouldn't be seen as one
this is a volunteer effort, much like the red cross. they stand in
corners of streets asking for money, and it's legitimate. some people
don't like it. others give money
>> If I blogged about an annoying problem I had with Microsoft Office and
>> someone commented on the post telling me how to fix it, there's no way
>> I'd view that as spam. I'd be thankful that someone helped me solving
>> the problem, even if his name was Steve Ballmer.
>
> Would you feel different if the person commenting on your blog was doing
> so because his JOB was to keep control of any bad publicity about
> Microsoft as much as possible?
No. That's besides the point, though, since our agenda is far from that.
Majken Connor
I think I get the point you're trying to make. If we simply respond to
everyone with a blanket "did you know you can get support from mozilla? go
here!" without any response or suggestions about the problem then I think
that would fall under the definition of spam as there's nothing in it
directed to the user. However, I don't think that's what anyone is
proposing. I believe the intent here is to contact people with a probable
solution, and hopefully maintain dialog until the problem is solved or the
help is declined. So for example if I were to respond to someone with a
problem I would make a few suggestions, then let them know when I was going
to be available on Live Chat so that they could contact me directly.
With regards to privacy, the problem with facebook was that people
originally signed up under a specific set of circumstances that made them
feel ok with providing personal info. Of course they'd be upset if the site
decided to make that information publically available, rather than available
to just the group who could access it previously. However, people with
blogs know that they're visible across the internet. If they didn't before,
the spam they receive after putting it up would clue them in. I don't know
of anyone with a blog that only wants a set circle of friends to see it.
Those people use email and facebook/myspace or something else with access
control. Whatever decision is made shouldn't be determined by people's
misconceptions, especially if those people are a minority.
In any case, I think that can be avoided by whoever that does do this makes
sure to leave a personal response in a way that the user can then respond
back to them directly.
Justin Wood (Callek)
> In any case, I think that can be avoided by whoever that does do this makes
> sure to leave a personal response in a way that the user can then respond
> back to them directly.
I agree wholeheartedly with what you said, only one addition.
Probably best to label it with personal responding information + "Or
another support representative may be able to help you as well" or some
such.
If *I* was to respond with possible ways to fix a problem for someone, I
would recommend the most likely, or (perhaps only) way I knew, and leave
my contact information for followup, but if my way doesn't work I'd then
have to direct them to a someone capable at handling support requests.
--
~Justin Wood (Callek)