Changes to Firefox that would help with Support
David McRitchie
convoluted means currently available in
http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/profile
even with AppData it is still convoluted and you don't get
the name of the profile you are using.
%AppData%\Mozilla\Firefox\Profiles\xxxxxxxx.default\
There is an extension that does this, but there are two
problems with that
1) you have to install it into each profile,
2) Not available when you are in safe mode, where you
should at least be able to get to the directory with all
of the profiles.
Open Profile Folder ? extension installed on Tools menu,
opens the current Firefox profile with the Windows File
Manager, providing complete access to features available
there, sorting on filename, type, date, and opening with the
default application, or opening with an application such as
Notepad that you want to open the file with.
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/545/
Extensions have no problem finding this information, and it
should be readily available,
1) In Firefox HELP by default, and in Windows that would
be direct access to the Windows File Manager.
2) As a chrome shortcut,
The rest should be able to built by the user for a specific profile
3) Available in a user defined keyword shortcut bookmark
4) Chrome customization to include profile name in Titlebar
--
David McRitchie,
Firefox Customizations: http://www.mvps.org/dmcritchie/firefox/firefox.htm
Axel Hecht
and a security precaution, defense in depth stuff.
I'm not sure that the use case of a supporter trying to explain this to
someone is strong enough to weaken that measure. I know, it comes up an
awful lot in #firefox.de, too, but still.
Exposing this would at least require some security UI, IMHO, something
like "treat this like a PIN, you're supposed to know it, but nobody else
is".
Axel
»Q«
Axel Hecht <ax...@pike.org> wrote:
> Hrm, the fact that our profile directory is hard to find is
> intentional and a security precaution, defense in depth stuff.
>
> I'm not sure that the use case of a supporter trying to explain this
> to someone is strong enough to weaken that measure. I know, it comes
> up an awful lot in #firefox.de, too, but still.
In the Firefox support newsgroup, IME it's very rare to have someone who
can't find it after being pointed to
<http://kb.mozillazine.org/Profile_folder#Firefox>. And if someone
can't find it using that table, whoever is trying to help then knows
that the help-seeker is not comfortable navigating the file system and
probably needs a higher level of hand-holding.
> Exposing this would at least require some security UI, IMHO, something
> like "treat this like a PIN, you're supposed to know it, but nobody else
> is".
Also, as it is now, clicking things in the Firefox UI won't lead to
irreversible problems. I think adding UI to take users to the profile
directory would lead people to break their own Firefoxen.
An about:profile page with information about the in-use profile might
be a good solution. I'm thinking of something similar to about:cache.
It could also carry warnings about tinkering with the profile files and
maybe a link to more info on the web.
David McRitchie
> Also, as it is now, clicking things in the Firefox UI won't lead to
> irreversible problems. I think adding UI to take users to the profile
> directory would lead people to break their own Firefoxen.
>
> An about:profile page with information about the in-use profile might
> be a good solution. I'm thinking of something similar to about:cache.
> It could also carry warnings about tinkering with the profile files and
> maybe a link to more info on the web.
Immediately after installing Firefox you are told how to Tweak
things in Firefox and that requires finding the profile, the convoluted
methods may get you there but it's not fast and depending on
how Firefox was installed or when, or the operating system,
it can vary a lot.
Axel Hecht
Who tells you to tweak things immediatly after installation?
Axel
David McRitchie
"Axel Hecht"
> Who tells you to tweak things immediately after installation?
Removal of ads and customization was the reason
for installing Mozilla and then being told by the same
person one month later at a club meeting to dump Mozilla
immediately and install Firefox.
You sure aren't going to get very far in Firefox
customizing things the way you want them, which to
me is what Firefox is all about; otherwise, use Opera.
One of the first things you have to be able to do is
find your profile, not very pleasant, especially if you
want to then do the same on another machine with a
different background (like moved up from Netscape)
and have only ten minutes -- I failed, it was built on
Netscape it took me ten minutes to find the profile.
Why bother asking people to backup their personal
data, if they're going to mess it up anyway.
http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/
http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/support/
http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/edit
http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/faq.html
http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/tips.html
Or something like
install Firefox, support, Help, Tips and tricks
Jason Barnabe (np)
> Hrm, the fact that our profile directory is hard to find is intentional
> and a security precaution, defense in depth stuff.
Isn't the profile directory hard to find to prevent a malicious script
that gained access to the system from easily grabbing its contents?
How would adding UI to open it present a security problem?
> Exposing this would at least require some security UI, IMHO, something
> like "treat this like a PIN, you're supposed to know it, but nobody else
> is".
I don't think the location of the profile folder is something that
needs to be as secret as a PIN. You don't want malicious scripts to
know it, but posting it online isn't going to be harmful.
Jason Barnabe (np)
> In the Firefox support newsgroup, IME it's very rare to have someone who
> can't find it after being pointed to
> <http://kb.mozillazine.org/Profile_folder#Firefox>.
On the newsgroup, you're dealing with the subset of people who know
how to post to a newsgroup. Those people are more likely to be
technically-inclined.
Axel Hecht
I don't agree, but I don't have have to be convinced about this, either.
dveditz and/or window would be, though.
Axel
Majken Connor
-Majken "Lucy" Connor
David McRitchie
I guess I'm with nobody.
Your assumptions are that
-you have all the time in the world
-you are connected to the internet
-you are willing to install useless extensions, such as to
backup your profile, control your about:config options,
or to make what would a single line added to a profile file.
-that Firefox was not installed over something else
-it is your machine
-that there is only one system on it, and only one Firefox
on it and only one profile. In other words that once you
find a profile -- it is the right profile in the right directory.
In order to install and customize two of the most useful
extensions around "CopyURL Plus" and "Launchy", you
need to know where the profile is. And everyone has
to waste time on finding their profile at one time or another.
There is also "floppymoose.com" but you can use Adblock
now instead, but I still have most of the original definitions
in place from that and they are still in effect even if
Adblock is disabled. Was I an 'Advanced User' when I
installed any of those -- depends on what you mean by advanced
user. Everyone using any application had to start somewhere.
And now there are a lot of customizations that I would
recommend and they all require working with the profile
and a lot of them are because of Fx2 annoyances in
tabs chrome usage, over which I lost weeks of time
over months but I have what I want and want people
to be able to work with them easily.
You worry about someone damaging their Firefox browser
when there are help desk people who have fifty different
ways of saying "I'd like to run a format [format your hard
drive], if that is okay with you". Such people even have
jobs. Or on a corporate level such 'Help Desk' personnel
want to restrict access on one's own computer so that they
become the only source of all help -- does that sound familiar
seems it already came up in this thread or newsgroup
with pin numbers and online help (instead of installed Help).
When it is hard to work with a profile you get a
"Safe Mode" dialog with added features, which assumes
that someone is going to see the documentation first
before the starting in (Firefox) Safe Mode. Why are
there any options available on starting in Safe Mode.
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Safe_mode
Shouldn't one identify the problem first.
Here's something interesting, start Firefox and everything
is fine, but start Firefox from a link in email or newsgroup
and get a different profile. Should you have to bring Firefox
down to find out what is going on.
Majken Connor
You can't have seen many of the support replies given to people with
the most *common* problems using Firefox:
Toolbar customizations resetting themselves
Lost bookmarks
Download Manager function problems
Search engines disappearing/not saving
etc etc etc
They *all* elicit replies requiring direct access to the application
data directory and the user's Profile folder.
Yes, I see them all the time. In a *support situation* knowing the path to the profile is vital, as I state in my more recent replies to David. Your examples are all support issues though, and not examples of David's initial claim that "immediately after installing Firefox you are told how to Tweak things in Firefox and that requires finding the profile." Nor do your examples counter that to actually *customize* Firefox you don't need to edit the profile by hand. You need to edit it by hand sometimes to *fix* firefox, which is where we all agree that being able to find the profile path somewhere would be helpful.
David is asking for a button that actually launches the profile folder and using ease of customization as part of his reasoning. Those of us that are disagreeing are disagreeing with launching the folder rather than letting the user see the path somewhere, and also having it exposed somewhere obvious. We'd like it a bit hidden like about:config to heighten the odds that the people who are finding it know enough about it to not cause damage or dataloss.
-Majken "Lucy" Connor
I also sent a response to David personally by mistake as well, here's the bit that's really relevant to the broader discussion:
You make some really great points about needing to access the profile in different support situations, but again that wasn't the part anyone was disagreeing with. Having the profile path somewhere findable would definitely help with support. Do you know if there's a bug filed recommending it already? If not we should definitely do that.
David McRitchie
"Majken Connor" in a reply to Joey (Thanks Joey)
> You make some really great points about needing to access the profile in
> different support situations, but again that wasn't the part anyone was
> disagreeing with. Having the profile path somewhere findable would
> definitely help with support. Do you know if there's a bug filed
> recommending it already? If not we should definitely do that.
Sure had me fooled then (see title). In Windows you
would have to go through the File Manager in order to
change things or it certainly becomes more complicated.
Any/All of the following would help and would be available
anytime, regardless of whether JavaScript is enabled,
and would be available in Safe Mode. (Your bookmarks
are available in Safe Mode in current profile).
Help (menu), Profile
about:profile
Chrome URL
All of which would be along lines of what I asked for, you can
reread my posting. The addition of a button, or
addition to main context menu or tools menu are
certainly not what I would want, and you will not
find that in what I posted.
I did provide information on how you might as I did
immediately see customizing some options through the
profile. I think the link was actually directly off of the
installation page at the time, rather than a couple of clicks away.
Soon after information to locate the profile was modified within
kb.mozilla.org/Profile_folder in using Windows %APPDATA%
it was changed to "for the curious" then to "Advanced users",
the words "Advanced users" was immediately changed to "You"
so I don't think the sediment expressed here is shared among
those doing a lot of documentation.
"18 July 2006 Alice Wyman m (?For Windows 2000 and XP users
- %APPDATA% phrase is for all users, not just advanced users)"
http://kb.mozillazine.org/index.php?title=Profile_folder&diff=26883&oldid=26880
Does one file a bug report for something that isn't broken,
seems it would tend to get ignored.
There is something in http://wiki.mozilla.org/Bookmarks_Use_Cases
which I put there for another aspect, which would be an aid to
Firefox portable applications, which would have to be builtin to
Firefox itself then would become available in portable applications.
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Bookmarks_Use_Cases#Relative_Bookmarks
Not the same problem but it does have simularities.
Majken Connor
The addition of a button, or
addition to main context menu or tools menu are
certainly not what I would want, and you will not
find that in what I posted.
I disagree, but that's besides the point. If that's not what you meant then there's certainly no reason to discuss it anymore.
Does one file a bug report for something that isn't broken,
seems it would tend to get ignored.
Yes, one does. Severity level is enhancement. It wouldn't make sense to have a completely different tracking system for new features.
-Majken "Lucy" Connor
Chris Ilias
> Any/All of the following would help and would be available
> anytime, regardless of whether JavaScript is enabled,
> and would be available in Safe Mode. (Your bookmarks
> are available in Safe Mode in current profile).
> Help (menu), Profile
> about:profile
> Chrome URL
Sounds like bug 367596
<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=367596>.