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Re: fix the crashing

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Sjouke Burry

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May 10, 2009, 8:50:31 PM5/10/09
to
kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:
> If FF needs a guaranteed site to use as a guaranteed crash try www.walmart.com.
> I had to fire up ie just to get to the site.
> That's just one of the many sites FF now crashes on.
>
> And FWIW: Though I can't explain why.. I had v9 installed. installed 10, and
> everything started crashing.
>
> I removed 10, reinstalled 7. And now 7 crashes also. Obviously we need a
> COMPLETE FF removal tool now. I myself have favorited all the FF registry
> entries I could find. But even that didn't work. So it seems there's more to
> remove, like in the virtual folders, and C:\Mozilla.

No crash here, you might check in save mode .

g

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May 10, 2009, 8:56:12 PM5/10/09
to firefox-support
kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:
> If FF needs a guaranteed site to use as a guaranteed crash try www.walmart.com.
> I had to fire up ie just to get to the site.
> That's just one of the many sites FF now crashes on.

i think problem is on your end or it is a 'windows thing'.

i am using firefox 3.0.10 under linux and have no problems with walmart site.


> And FWIW: Though I can't explain why.. I had v9 installed. installed 10, and
> everything started crashing.

v9, v10? there is not firefox v9 or v10. maybe that is a part of your
problem. where are you getting firefox with such versions?

from appearances, you really need to set up a firewall and anti malware.

--

peace out.

tc,hago.

g
.

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Daddy

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May 10, 2009, 9:15:25 PM5/10/09
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kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:
> If FF needs a guaranteed site to use as a guaranteed crash try www.walmart.com.
> I had to fire up ie just to get to the site.
> That's just one of the many sites FF now crashes on.
>
> And FWIW: Though I can't explain why.. I had v9 installed. installed 10, and
> everything started crashing.
>
> I removed 10, reinstalled 7. And now 7 crashes also. Obviously we need a
> COMPLETE FF removal tool now. I myself have favorited all the FF registry
> entries I could find. But even that didn't work. So it seems there's more to
> remove, like in the virtual folders, and C:\Mozilla.

"If FF needs a guaranteed site to use as a guaranteed crash try
www.walmart.com."

No crashing here with FF 3 on Windows XP SP 3.

Daddy

g

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May 10, 2009, 9:17:28 PM5/10/09
to firefox-support
Sjouke Burry wrote:

> No crash here, you might check in save mode .

safe mode would be better. :)

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G. R. Woodring

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May 10, 2009, 9:31:06 PM5/10/09
to

I believe Sjouke meant "-safe-mode" http://kb.mozillazine.org/Safe_Mode

As the problem occurs with different versions (3.0.7 and 3.0.10) the problem is
clearly _not_ in the program but in your profile, likely an extension. Hence
the -safe-mode suggestion.

Also, no crash here - Firefox (Minefield) 3.6a1pre 20090418, Windows XP (just
updated to SP3). Millions of people use Firefox and probably also visit
Walmart.com. If they all crashed Walmart woulda heard about it.


--
G. R. Woodring

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John McGaw

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May 11, 2009, 9:33:06 AM5/11/09
to
kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:
> If FF needs a guaranteed site to use as a guaranteed crash try www.walmart.com.
> I had to fire up ie just to get to the site.
> That's just one of the many sites FF now crashes on.
>
> And FWIW: Though I can't explain why.. I had v9 installed. installed 10, and
> everything started crashing.
>
> I removed 10, reinstalled 7. And now 7 crashes also. Obviously we need a
> COMPLETE FF removal tool now. I myself have favorited all the FF registry
> entries I could find. But even that didn't work. So it seems there's more to
> remove, like in the virtual folders, and C:\Mozilla.

Works fine for me with the latest release as it did with all of the ones
before that I've tried. I suspect that the problem is something besides FF.
How many add-ons do you have installed? Have you tried using FF in safe
mode to see how it works out?

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Dave Symes

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May 11, 2009, 11:36:31 AM5/11/09
to
In article <90eg0594mup4tbmoq...@4ax.com>,
<kee...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
[Snippy]
> check the ff web forum. Everyone's V10 is crashing. And whatever it
> modified, it also affected my [semi stable] V7 which DIDN'T crash until
> AFTER installing 10.

Sorry to be a fart in the lift matey, but I have 3.0.10 installed on three
different machine, two XP-SP3 and one Vista SP-1... ten same addons with
each machine, and they are all stable.

Whoops! I forgot a fourth install of 3.0.10, but that's on Ubuntu 9.04.
Dave

--

Moz Champion (Dan)

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May 11, 2009, 12:58:56 PM5/11/09
to
kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:

> On Sun, 10 May 2009 21:31:06 -0400, "G. R. Woodring" <tejbb...@rneguyvax.arg>
> wrote:
>
>> As the problem occurs with different versions (3.0.7 and 3.0.10) the problem is
>> clearly _not_ in the program but in your profile, likely an extension. Hence
>> the -safe-mode suggestion.
>>
>> Also, no crash here - Firefox (Minefield) 3.6a1pre 20090418, Windows XP (just
>> updated to SP3). Millions of people use Firefox and probably also visit
>> Walmart.com. If they all crashed Walmart woulda heard about it.
>
> check the ff web forum. Everyone's V10 is crashing. And whatever it modified,
> it also affected my [semi stable] V7 which DIDN'T crash until AFTER installing
> 10.
> I asked for a DETAILED FF removal tool because the add/remove section doesn't
> do it. My special registry removals, and removals from the virtual folders also
> has no effect.
> There's lots of keys in the registry that only the source code knows about
> existing with FF.

Everyone's??? Doesn't seem to be the case in this group. You have many
replies from people who are NOT crashing, include myself in that group.

So your 'everyone is crashing' is nonsense.

Moz Champion (Dan)

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May 11, 2009, 1:01:33 PM5/11/09
to
kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:
> the 'addons' are part of FF. A disclaimer that you have no idea what the addons
> will do to your program isn't worth crap. There's hundreds of 3rd party utils
> that can do what the FF addons do. If the addons are a problem with FF's
> operation, then maybe it's time to deep six the addons. Or put some programmer
> to work to see what is or can go wrong with each addon.
>
> There's pages of 'FF is crashing' as the FF forum re: V10.


You use 'safe mode' to temporarily 'deep six' the add ons to see if they
are causing or contributing to the problem.


The authors of Firefox don't make the add-ons, other people do. If you
don't want add-ons, they DONT ADD THEM!


I have very few add-ons and I don't have any problems.

Daddy

unread,
May 11, 2009, 1:14:30 PM5/11/09
to
kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:
> On Sun, 10 May 2009 21:31:06 -0400, "G. R. Woodring" <tejbb...@rneguyvax.arg>
> wrote:
>
>> As the problem occurs with different versions (3.0.7 and 3.0.10) the problem is
>> clearly _not_ in the program but in your profile, likely an extension. Hence
>> the -safe-mode suggestion.
>>
>> Also, no crash here - Firefox (Minefield) 3.6a1pre 20090418, Windows XP (just
>> updated to SP3). Millions of people use Firefox and probably also visit
>> Walmart.com. If they all crashed Walmart woulda heard about it.
>
> check the ff web forum. Everyone's V10 is crashing. And whatever it modified,
> it also affected my [semi stable] V7 which DIDN'T crash until AFTER installing
> 10.
> I asked for a DETAILED FF removal tool because the add/remove section doesn't
> do it. My special registry removals, and removals from the virtual folders also
> has no effect.
> There's lots of keys in the registry that only the source code knows about
> existing with FF.

"Everyone's V10 is crashing."

My v10 has never crashed.

Daddy

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Moz Champion (Dan)

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May 11, 2009, 3:03:16 PM5/11/09
to
kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:

> On Mon, 11 May 2009 13:01:33 -0400, "Moz Champion (Dan)"
> <moz.ch...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>> There's pages of 'FF is crashing' as the FF forum re: V10.
>>
>> You use 'safe mode' to temporarily 'deep six' the add ons to see if they
>> are causing or contributing to the problem.
>>
>>
>> The authors of Firefox don't make the add-ons, other people do. If you
>> don't want add-ons, they DONT ADD THEM!
>>
>>
>> I have very few add-ons and I don't have any problems.
>
> I said nothing about addon's. That came from left field as the cure to the
> problem. The problem is that 10 is crashing a lot of machines. Even my ZA force
> field wouldn't allow FF to run because of instability.
>
> Addon's, are a FACT of FF. If addon's are causing instability with FF, maybe
> it's time FF drop the addon's entirely instead of making such a crap fest
> readily available.
>
> I don't know, and shouldn't have to know what works and what doesn't work with
> what's offered as 'EXTENSIONS' to the program. If it were a safety or health
> matter, those addon's would require extensive government testing. As is, it
> comes with 'AS IS, BUYER BEWARE!'
> If I'm to trust the FF company, they shouldn't make crap available that's going
> to RUIN their public name. That is unless they're trying for bankruptcy.. Then
> I'd say keep going as they are ..It shouldn't be long.


If you don't like Firefox, then return it for a full refund of what you
paid for it.

Millions of users the world over have NO PROBLEMS with Firefox,
regardless of the amount of extensions they use. Firefox provides a
method so you can assess if an extension (or two) is causing or
contributing to a problem, it's called safe mode. That turns OFF all
your extensions temporarily, if that cures the problem, then it is one
(or more) of your extensions.

You don't have to know what causes (or doesn't) a problem with your
particuler setup, you can test to see if it is an extension or not, but
only if you have a problem.

With Firefox, across three major OS's, and literally hundreds of
extensions, add-ons, plug ins, themes, not to mention other programs
(like Zone Alarm) that interact with the program there are MILLIONS of
permutations available. Just to test ONCE with all the permutations
would take YEARS, for what good?

Your problem is resolveable, if you stop with the rhetoric ('everybody'
DOESN'T have a problem) and work with us to fault find the issue to
discover what exactly is the problem (and the solution).

If you don't care to, then fine, just return the product for a full
refund of the purchase price, and heck, I'll personally DOUBLE that
price so you get THREE times your money back!

Many people have problems with Zone Alarm, but I notice you are using
it, try turning that OFF completely (temporarily) to see if that is
causing/contributing to the problem.

Moz Champion (Dan)

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May 11, 2009, 3:06:56 PM5/11/09
to
kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:

> On Mon, 11 May 2009 10:40:41 -0400, kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 10 May 2009 21:31:06 -0400, "G. R. Woodring" <tejbb...@rneguyvax.arg>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> As the problem occurs with different versions (3.0.7 and 3.0.10) the problem is
>>> clearly _not_ in the program but in your profile, likely an extension. Hence
>>> the -safe-mode suggestion.
>
> safe mode has no effect. It still crashes in safe mode on www.walmart.com.
> This is V7. Which I reverted to when V10 started crashing on many pages.
> As for 'my profile', it's happening on MANY V10 users at the FF Forum.
>
> My V7 was semi stable.

Your V7 of what?


there have been multiple responses to your post, and they all say 'no
problem' with the walmart site.


As I said in another post, if you tried safe mode, and it still crashes,
then it probably ISN'T an add on or extension causing or contributing to
the problem. It must be something else.


I suggest you temporarily turn OFF Zone Alarm and see if it still
crashes, you can turn it back on if you wish after testing.

Pete Holsberg

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May 11, 2009, 3:22:29 PM5/11/09
to Firefox user help
kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:
> On Mon, 11 May 2009 10:40:41 -0400, kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 10 May 2009 21:31:06 -0400, "G. R. Woodring" <tejbb...@rneguyvax.arg>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>As the problem occurs with different versions (3.0.7 and 3.0.10) the problem is
>>>clearly _not_ in the program but in your profile, likely an extension. Hence
>>>the -safe-mode suggestion.
>
> safe mode has no effect. It still crashes in safe mode on www.walmart.com.
> This is V7. Which I reverted to when V10 started crashing on many pages.
> As for 'my profile', it's happening on MANY V10 users at the FF Forum.
>
> My V7 was semi stable.

Works like a charm here!

Where is this "FF Forum" you speak of??


Daddy

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May 11, 2009, 3:28:49 PM5/11/09
to
kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:
> On Mon, 11 May 2009 10:40:41 -0400, kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:
>
>
> And here's a thought. How many of those 'it's [FF v10] not crashing me' ALSO
> have IE8 now installed on their machines ? V10 and IE8 both arrived about the
> same time on my machine. And the crashing began.

I installed FF 3.0.10 /before/ I installed IE 8. FF did not crash with
IE 7 and it doesn't crash with IE 8 either.

I've been using FF to visit walmart.com ever since version 2 (of
Firefox, that is) and with every version since. Never crashed.

No disrespect intended...you really ought to stop blaming your woes on
Firefox.

Daddy

Dave Symes

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May 11, 2009, 3:29:20 PM5/11/09
to
In article <2ssg05p0sqj0n2vap...@4ax.com>,

<kee...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 May 2009 10:40:41 -0400, kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:


> And here's a thought. How many of those 'it's [FF v10] not crashing me'
> ALSO have IE8 now installed on their machines ? V10 and IE8 both arrived
> about the same time on my machine. And the crashing began.

Firefox 3.0.10 and MIE 8 installed on all three machines, Ffox solid as a
Rock.

Dave

--

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g

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May 11, 2009, 4:52:53 PM5/11/09
to firefox-support
Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:

> If you don't like Firefox, then return it for a full refund of what you
> paid for it.

<snip>

well said. i agree 200% with you.

> Many people have problems with Zone Alarm, but I notice you are using
> it, try turning that OFF completely (temporarily) to see if that is
> causing/contributing to the problem.

being that they are still offering a free demo and a free firewall, i imagine
that this may well be what op is using. tho it may well be something has has
wrong with zone alarm.

in case of mozilla products, he is getting more than 'just something'. he is
getting the top most rated software of 'free software world'.

were as with zone alarm, he is scrapping bottom.

only thing i am thankful for about zone alarm, when i was last using ms os
and it allowed me to have entire hard drive get wiped, it was last straw of
installing ms os.

i have been with linux from first days of slackware, and full time for past
10 or so years. for this, i thank zone alarm.

i never recommend zone alarm, and for those that i meet who are using it,
i do recommend them that they change. those that have change a very happy.
those who have not are still having problems.

as for op, he needs to drop zone alarm, get good software that will not
crash firefox, and stop miss quoting forum.

still waiting to see his post about all the crashes with 3.0.10, which he
wrongly calls 'v10'. it is version *3*. '.10' is a revision level.

signature.asc

g

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May 11, 2009, 4:58:13 PM5/11/09
to firefox-support
kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:

> To those that tried to help, instead of putting FF on a pedestal, I found the
> problem causing MY FF to crash.

and it is not a problem with firefox.

you owe written apologies to entire mozilla community.

> This doesn't change the fact that there's pages
> of complaints about V10 crashing left & right at the FF mozillazine.

it is *not* v10.

just where are all these complaints you speak of? other than in your head.

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goodwin

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May 12, 2009, 12:13:09 AM5/12/09
to
On 05/11/2009 12:47 PM kee...@yahoo.com.invalid scribbled:

> On Mon, 11 May 2009 10:40:41 -0400, kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:
>

nothing worth responding to

looks like just another troll stirring up the masses here - adjust your
filters accordingly.

Chris Ilias

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May 12, 2009, 12:28:07 AM5/12/09
to
On 11/05/09 3:47 PM, kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:
> I found 1 source of my problem, though I don't see a fix to it.
>
> Since ZA force field was also reporting instability after installing 10, and
> reverting to 7 made no difference. I luckily had the Walmart.com test page to
> make it crash.
>
> I turned off ZA, fired up FF, tried Walmart, worked. not a glitch.
> FF 7 still loaded, ran ZA force field. back to Walmart. No crash..
> Obviously FF attempting to operate in ZA's sandbox is a restriction it can't
> handle [any more]. It's been working fine with ZA FF. Installed FF 10, and it
> starts crashing right and left.
>
> ZA loads at startup to handle ALL Internet traffic. Crap I just ran task
> manager. I'm back with 2 instances of firefox running again but only 1 is
> running.
>
> Back to locating poison IVY..

2 instances of firefox.exe in the task manager? Unless you've set the
-no-remote command line argument, that shouldn't happen. The next time
it crashes, you can use about:crashes the next time you start Firefox to
find your crash ID. See
<http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Firefox+crashes#Getting_information_about_your_crash>.

Once you've got your crash ID, post it in this thread, and we'll see
what info we can get.
--
Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca>
List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia
Keeper of the Knowledge Base: <https://support.mozilla.com/kb/>

rebro

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May 12, 2009, 4:39:34 AM5/12/09
to
Moz Champion (Dan) schrieb:

> ... I suggest you temporarily turn OFF Zone Alarm and see if it still

> crashes, you can turn it back on if you wish after testing.

In my case temporarily turning off ZA didn't have any positive effect,
unfortunately. I definitely had to uninstall it as completely as it is
possible, and I haven't had any crashes resp. freezing windows since then.
-rebro

Message has been deleted

Daddy

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May 12, 2009, 9:23:51 AM5/12/09
to
kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:

> On Tue, 12 May 2009 00:28:07 -0400, Chris Ilias <n...@ilias.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 11/05/09 3:47 PM, kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:
>>> I found 1 source of my problem, though I don't see a fix to it.
>>>
>>> Since ZA force field was also reporting instability after installing 10, and
>>> reverting to 7 made no difference. I luckily had the Walmart.com test page to
>>> make it crash.
>>>
>>> I turned off ZA, fired up FF, tried Walmart, worked. not a glitch.
>>> FF 7 still loaded, ran ZA force field. back to Walmart. No crash..
>>> Obviously FF attempting to operate in ZA's sandbox is a restriction it can't
>>> handle [any more]. It's been working fine with ZA FF. Installed FF 10, and it
>>> starts crashing right and left.
>>>
>>> ZA loads at startup to handle ALL Internet traffic. Crap I just ran task
>>> manager. I'm back with 2 instances of firefox running again but only 1 is
>>> running.
>>>
>>> Back to locating poison IVY..
>> 2 instances of firefox.exe in the task manager? Unless you've set the
>> -no-remote command line argument, that shouldn't happen. The next time
>> it crashes, you can use about:crashes the next time you start Firefox to
>> find your crash ID. See
>> <http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Firefox+crashes#Getting_information_about_your_crash>.
>>
>> Once you've got your crash ID, post it in this thread, and we'll see
>> what info we can get.
>
> I found the crashing problem. It had something to do with the ZA forcefield
> cache. I cleared that, rebooted the machine, and FF, and everything was fixed.
> Went to the ZA forum, and it seems someone else thinks like me that there
> should probably be a 'clear cache automatically' toggle on boot/logoff of
> browser. I suggested startup.

"...there should probably be a 'clear cache automatically' toggle on
boot/logoff..."

Perhaps you're not familiar with "Always clear my private data when I
close Firefox."

Look, my friend, you need to stop complaining and start reading. You're
making yourself look foolish.

Daddy

David McRitchie

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May 12, 2009, 12:22:54 PM5/12/09
to
"Daddy" ...

I think the original poster did a good job of isolating the problem, and of
fixing it, and of reporting back what he found to work.

If I read the problem, solution, and suggestion correctly, the problem is in
Zone Alarm's cache (forcefield cache) not Firefox cache, and it definitely becomes
a Firefox problem if you can't use Firefox. Definitely needs to be something
added to the MozillaZine KB about determining the problem and getting
around it. I would expect to the Zone Alarm portion of ...
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Firewalls '
don't know if these would be relevant, would think you'd have to look at
the article above anyway
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Object_has_been_blocked
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Firefox_hangs

and perhaps something should be added to
http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Configuring+ZoneALarm#Configuring_ZoneAlarm_Firewall

The real solution would be for a Zone Alarm fix, and that is why I
say workaround in Firefox, because fixes even to Firefox can take a
long time to get implemented and in the meantime users are stuck
with workarounds.

The entire thread can be seen at the following link, unfortunately, the
original poster using Forte Agent has set "no archive" to yes
so all of his postings will disappear shortly, and not be providing the
best benefit possible to others in a complete thread for others who
might have the same problem(s).

http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.firefox/browse_frm/thread/eab83e3ead6e8a7d/22a252bbfef52bbb

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I am Not Here

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May 12, 2009, 4:59:28 PM5/12/09
to
On 5/12/2009 12:54 PM, kee...@yahoo.com.invalid wrote:

> On Tue, 12 May 2009 12:22:54 -0400, "David McRitchie"<fire...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>>>>>> ZA loads at startup to handle ALL Internet traffic. Crap I just ran task
>>>>>> manager. I'm back with 2 instances of firefox running again but only 1 is
>>>>>> running.
> This was mentioned regarding ZA. I guess it also refers to ZA forcefield.
> It would seem the 2 instances was a one shot deal. It isn't happening now.
>

>
>> If I read the problem, solution, and suggestion correctly, the problem is in
>> Zone Alarm's cache (forcefield cache) not Firefox cache, and it definitely becomes
>> a Firefox problem if you can't use Firefox. Definitely needs to be something
>> added to the MozillaZine KB about determining the problem and getting
>> around it. I would expect to the Zone Alarm portion of ...
>> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Firewalls '
>> don't know if these would be relevant, would think you'd have to look at
>> the article above anyway
>> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Object_has_been_blocked
>> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Firefox_hangs
>>

>


>> The real solution would be for a Zone Alarm fix, and that is why I
>> say workaround in Firefox, because fixes even to Firefox can take a
>> long time to get implemented and in the meantime users are stuck
>> with workarounds.
>>

>

> Also there is no FF work around. It's just a need to clear the ZA forcefield
> cache, and rerun the browser.
> This doesn't mean this will fix ALL the crashing complaints from installing 10.
> It's just what fixed my crashing.


Actually there is no problem here..
Zone alarm was doing the job is is employed to do. The program was not
the one it expected to find and stopped it from doing things. FF
version was different and ZA needed to be informed of the local change.
Once that is done all should be good again.

Every time a program that uses the internet changes ZA should stop it
and ask you what to do. That is what a firewall does if it is working.
It can't know if the code change was intentional or malicious.

kee...@yahoo.com.invalid

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May 12, 2009, 5:24:12 PM5/12/09
to
On Tue, 12 May 2009 13:59:28 -0700, I am Not Here <us...@domain.invalid> wrote:

>Actually there is no problem here..
>Zone alarm was doing the job is is employed to do. The program was not
>the one it expected to find and stopped it from doing things. FF
>version was different and ZA needed to be informed of the local change.
>Once that is done all should be good again.
>
>Every time a program that uses the internet changes ZA should stop it
>and ask you what to do. That is what a firewall does if it is working.
> It can't know if the code change was intentional or malicious.

I've gone out of my way to say ZA zone alarm's FORCEFIELD cache. This is NOT ZA
Firewall, or the ZA suite of programs. It's a standalone program associated
with the company ZA and Checkpoint software.

It's not so much a firewall as the next generation 'sandboxie' style program.
Everything that comes thru the modem, comes thru ZA FORCEFIELD, and then routed
to a special area on the HD controlled by FORCEFIELD.
Where a firewall blocks or allows, FORCEFIELD only handles stuff that's
allowed. And then it puts a clamp on that stuff until I'm done browsing.
Downloads are next to impossible IOW: No drive by downloads of trojans. Pages
in a database of BAD sites have a HUGE DO NOT GO HERE or else warning, but it
allows you to be stupid. just lets you know how stupid it is.
And it also scans images, and downloads for virus. I can't give it a 100%, I
doubt that thing exists. But I will give it an 80.. It's very good, and very
tight.

But since I didn't program this thing, I can't say exactly how it works.
That it works is all that's necessary.

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