FF3 no longer FrontPage compatible!
Storm
FrontPage for many years. Yes, I know FrontPage is antiquated and
generates sloppy code, but it's a great tool for non-coding folks like
me. Until now, I've had no problem with viewing my pages in FF, but now
that I've upgraded to FF3, problems are proliferating. For instance,
near the top of this page, I've got a bulleted list, but in FF3, the
bullets appear halfway across the page, in the middle of the sentences!
This means millions of Firefox users around the world won't be able to
see my pages correctly, and that pisses me off. If the FF3 developers
are trying to reduce user loyalty, they're off to a great start. I
certainly won't continue to promote FF if it's going to damage my own
business interests.
Ron K.
Submit your pages to the W3C HTML validatoe, then fix your errors.
Belly aching without offering a URL for independant testing is rude.
--
Ron K.
Who is General Failure, and why is he searching my HDD?
Kernel Restore reported Major Error used BSOD to msg the enemy!
Vic Moz Garcia
I have half a dozen websites that I've created and managed in MS FrontPage for many years. Yes, I know FrontPage is antiquated and generates sloppy code, but it's a great tool for non-coding folks like me. Until now, I've had no problem with viewing my pages in FF, but now that I've upgraded to FF3, problems are proliferating. For instance, near the top of this page, I've got a bulleted list, but in FF3, the bullets appear halfway across the page, in the middle of the sentences! This means millions of Firefox users around the world won't be able to see my pages correctly, and that pisses me off. If the FF3 developers are trying to reduce user loyalty, they're off to a great start. I certainly won't continue to promote FF if it's going to damage my own business interests.
A dozen 'wrongs' still does NOT make one 'right'.
See: http://www.w3.org/QA/Tools/
wtwjgc
That's one of the reasons M$ discontinued FrontPage in 2006.
It uses non-standard code that only M$'s non-standard browser (IE) could
read. Even IE8 will have problems unless the code is amended.
--
wtwjgc (Joe)
Storm
> Storm keyboarded, On 7/12/2008 11:48 AM :
>> I have half a dozen websites that I've created and managed in MS
>> FrontPage for many years. Yes, I know FrontPage is antiquated and
>> generates sloppy code, but it's a great tool for non-coding folks like
>> me. Until now, I've had no problem with viewing my pages in FF, but
>> now that I've upgraded to FF3, problems are proliferating. For
>> instance, near the top of this page, I've got a bulleted list, but in
>> FF3, the bullets appear halfway across the page, in the middle of the
>> sentences! This means millions of Firefox users around the world won't
>> be able to see my pages correctly, and that pisses me off. If the FF3
>> developers are trying to reduce user loyalty, they're off to a great
>> start. I certainly won't continue to promote FF if it's going to
>> damage my own business interests.
>
> Submit your pages to the W3C HTML validatoe, then fix your errors.
> Belly aching without offering a URL for independant testing is rude.
>
paste it in. Sorry about that. Here it is:
http://www.resolutionfund.com/Seminars.html
Storm
Web, is FF3-compatible? I guess I'm going to have to switch web editors.
David Pyles
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css2&warning=2&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.resolutionfund.com%2FSeminars.html
There are lots of errors there. I didn't take the time to try to figure
out which style entry is causing the problem, but when I disable the
inline styles, the bullets move to the beginnings of the lines. It
could be that your <ul> style and your <p> style inside the <ul> are
conflicting with one another. Try dumping the <p> tags inside the <li>
tags and putting the style="margin-top: 6px; margin-bottom: 0;
text-align:left" inside the <li> tags. Since you only have one
paragraph inside each <li> you don't need the paragraph tags.
My 2 cents...
Dave Pyles
Bernie
Microsoft's page,
http://www.microsoft.com/expression/products/overview.aspx?key=web says
that Expression Web is highly standards compliant. Then I clicked on
the FAQ link from that page and tried to click on the first Question:
"What is Microsoft Expression Web 2?". Nothing happened! Nothing
happens if I click on any of the questions, nor on the "Expand All" link.
However those links on the FAQ page don't do anything in IE either!
Either they haven't finished developing it yet, or they haven't mastered
their own tool. ;-)
Bernie
Pete Holsberg
> You're right: I made reference to a page in my post, and then forgot to
> paste it in. Sorry about that. Here it is:
> http://www.resolutionfund.com/Seminars.html
>
Display is fine here.
Storm
Storm
so I guess I'm going to have to find someone who can quickly run through
the sites and make all the fixes. I just downloaded the free trial of
Expression Web, which has compatibility and accessibility checkers, but
it doesn't have any kind of automatic fixer, which is what I was hoping
for. Any idea where I should look for a good FrontPage-to-Expression
Web consultant?
Pete Holsberg
Storm
> Storm has written on 7/12/2008 3:27 PM:
>> Pete Holsberg wrote:
>>
>>> Storm has written on 7/12/2008 12:16 PM:
>>>
>>>> You're right: I made reference to a page in my post, and then forgot
>>>> to paste it in. Sorry about that. Here it is:
>>>> http://www.resolutionfund.com/Seminars.html
>>>>
>>> Display is fine here.
>>>
>>>
>> You're on FF3?!
>>
> Yup!
>
page. Is there some kind of "backwards compatibility" setting in FF3
that you've turned on that I don't know about?
Rinaldi J. Montessi
> Storm has written on 7/12/2008 3:27 PM:
>> Pete Holsberg wrote:
>>
>>> Storm has written on 7/12/2008 12:16 PM:
>>>
>>>> You're right: I made reference to a page in my post, and then forgot
>>>> to paste it in. Sorry about that. Here it is:
>>>> http://www.resolutionfund.com/Seminars.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Display is fine here.
>>>
>>>
>> You're on FF3?!
>>
> Yup!
Also looks fine in Seamonkey Gecko/2008070902 SeaMonkey/2.0a1pre and
FF3. Does FF3 for Windows have an error console under the Tools tab?
Here it indicates a lot of unknown directives being ignored.
Rinaldi
--
Do you have lysdexia?
Pete Holsberg
Not that I know of. Have you tried clearing your cache? Starting in FF's
safe mode?
Pete Holsberg
> Also looks fine in Seamonkey Gecko/2008070902 SeaMonkey/2.0a1pre and
> FF3. Does FF3 for Windows have an error console under the Tools tab?
> Here it indicates a lot of unknown directives being ignored.
>
Wow! Lots, indeed!
Sjouke Burry
the middle. The rest looked just fine.
Sailfish
I'm seeing the bullets centered in Fx3, as well.
--
Sailfish - Netscape/Mozilla Champion
Netscape/Mozilla Tips: http://www.ufaq.org/ , http://ilias.ca/
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://www.projectit.com/
David Pyles
speaking, correctly.
On line 90 the tag <td style="text-align: center;"> is trying to control
the alignment of everything inside the table cell that contains the
problem tag bullets.
In each subsequent <p> tag there is a declared in-line style that causes
the text to align left (<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0;
text-align:left">) so those tags override the style in the <td> tag,
that is until we get to the <ul><li><p> tags on lines 140, 141 and 142
which are written as:
Line 140: <ul style="margin-top: 9; margin-bottom:0">
Line 141: <li>
Line 142: <p style="margin-top: 6px; margin-bottom: 0; text-align:left">
Since the <td> tag is still trying to center align all of the text in
the cell it aligns the bullets in the center of the page because is
nothing in the <ul> or <li> to tell it to do otherwise. The next place
there is a an alignment style change in in the <p> tag inside the <li>
so the paragraph is aligned left. The same CSS error is repeated in
each of the subsequent <li>s in the table cell. The "text-align:left"
needs to be in either the <ul> or in the <li> to override the
"text-align: center;" in the containing <td>.
There is a reason that it is called "cascading" styles. Maybe Firefox
3's quirks mode should be a little more forgiving of bad coding, but it
is rendering the code that it is being given as it should.
Dave Pyles
Storm
much as possible. I am curious as to why the bullets seem to be in the
right place when Peter views the page in FF3. But it's not important:
it's time for me to give up on FP, after using it for 10 years.
David Pyles
I sent that all for the benefit of the folks who were saying they didn't
know what was causing the problem.
Pages produced by FP are notorious for bad code. They make code that
works OK in IE, but all the versions of Firefox have had trouble with
some of FPs quirks. When I'm coding web sites, I always code for
Firefox no matter what the default preview browser in the HTML software.
I save the pages as I am adding things and load them into Frefox so
see how they look. If it looks right in Firefox, it will look right in
any browser.
Learning to code HTML is pretty easy. If you are maintaining numerous
web sites you should learn to do that. One easy way to learn the
rudiments is to make some pages in your favorite WYSIWYG editor then
play around with the source code.
For Firefox, there is a "Web Developer Toolbar" add-on. I found the
problems in your page by using that and modifying the html. You can
download it here https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/60 or
here http://chrispederick.com/work/web-developer/ I don't know how I
ever managed without it.
Dave Pyles
Sailfish
I confirmed what David suggested earlier that it was the <P ...></P>
tags within the <LI></LI> tags that was causing the problem. To get
around it, I simply moved the <P style="..."> inline style attributes
from the <P> tags into the preceding <LI> tags and simply removed the <P
...></P> tags within the <UL></UL> list tags and the bullets displayed
as expected.
gl
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Don't understand it here either as in my FF3 they look just they look
for you.
--
Jay Garcia - Netscape/Flock Champion
www.ufaq.org
Netscape - Flock - Firefox - Thunderbird - Seamonkey Support
Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo
> Storm wrote:
>> I have half a dozen websites that I've created and managed in MS
>> FrontPage for many years. Yes, I know FrontPage is antiquated and
>> generates sloppy code, but it's a great tool for non-coding folks like
>> me. Until now, I've had no problem with viewing my pages in FF, but
>> now that I've upgraded to FF3, problems are proliferating. For
>> instance, near the top of this page, I've got a bulleted list, but in
>> FF3, the bullets appear halfway across the page, in the middle of the
>> sentences! This means millions of Firefox users around the world won't
>> be able to see my pages correctly, and that pisses me off. If the FF3
>> developers are trying to reduce user loyalty, they're off to a great
>> start. I certainly won't continue to promote FF if it's going to
>> damage my own business interests.
>
> I confirmed what David suggested earlier that it was the <P ...></P>
> tags within the <LI></LI> tags that was causing the problem. To get
> around it, I simply moved the <P style="..."> inline style attributes
> from the <P> tags into the preceding <LI> tags and simply removed the <P
> ...></P> tags within the <UL></UL> list tags and the bullets displayed
> as expected.
>
> gl
>
but the question is why do they look alright in
FF2.0.0.15, SM 1.1.10, Safari 3.1.1, IE7, and Opera
9.51, but they don't work for FF3? What changed in FF3?
--
*IMPORTANT*: Sorry folks, but I cannot provide email
help!!!! Emails to me may become public
Notice: This posting is protected under the Free Speech
Laws, which applies everywhere in the FREE world,
except for some strange reason, not to the mozilla.org
newsgroup servers, where your posting may get you banned.
Peter Potamus & His Magic Flying Balloon:
http://www.toonopedia.com/potamus.htm
Sailfish
guidelines and it was here where I suspect the change(s) took place.
What, specifically? Sorry, dunno.
Storm
with the cleanup?
Storm
> Storm wrote:
>> I have half a dozen websites that I've created and managed in MS
>> FrontPage for many years. Yes, I know FrontPage is antiquated and
>> generates sloppy code, but it's a great tool for non-coding folks like
>> me. Until now, I've had no problem with viewing my pages in FF, but
>> now that I've upgraded to FF3, problems are proliferating. For
>> instance, near the top of this page, I've got a bulleted list, but in
>> FF3, the bullets appear halfway across the page, in the middle of the
>> sentences! This means millions of Firefox users around the world won't
>> be able to see my pages correctly, and that pisses me off. If the FF3
>> developers are trying to reduce user loyalty, they're off to a great
>> start. I certainly won't continue to promote FF if it's going to
>> damage my own business interests.
>
> I confirmed what David suggested earlier that it was the <P ...></P>
> tags within the <LI></LI> tags that was causing the problem. To get
> around it, I simply moved the <P style="..."> inline style attributes
> from the <P> tags into the preceding <LI> tags and simply removed the <P
> ...></P> tags within the <UL></UL> list tags and the bullets displayed
> as expected.
>
> gl
>
except one (the paragraph that starts with "You'll receive a free
one-year subscription...". The bullet on that one is still in the
middle, but that's the only one that remained flush-left, as it was
supposed to. That's the new problem, though: the "fixed" bulleted
paragraphs no longer display as flush-left, which looks pretty bad. It
shows flush-left within Expression Web, though, but not in FF3. I tried
taking away the bulleting in the WYSIWYG designer in Expression Web, and
then putting them back in, but that added some new errors, and took away
the different design of the sub-level bullet. I'm definitely going to
have to hire a bit of professional help on this, because I obviously
have no idea what I'm doing.
David Pyles
" style="text-align: center;" from the <td> tag on line 90 so that it
would no longer be trying to center align everything in the cell. I
tried this with the Miscellaneous>Edit HTML in Web Developer Toolbar and
it cleaned the display up nicely putting ALL the bullets where they
should be and corrected the "flush left" problem mentioned above, but
the table that begins on line 625 to the left, so I added align="center"
to that table tag and it put the table back in the center of the cell
where it should be.
Dave Pyles
David Pyles
sheldonlg
I love that web developer toolbar and have used it extensively. What I
have found even more valuable is the Firebug add-on. I have used it so
much that I can't imagine developing without it.
Storm
closest opening table tag I could find was on Line 597 in the Expression
Web view, so I'm assuming that was the one you were talking about. I'll
be happy to pay you just to do it directly. You've put so much time into
it so far, that I pretty sure I can trust you with my password (by
private email, of course). Do you have any familiarity with Expression
Web, by any chance?
Lou
Problems do not appear untill you get below "housing"
Lou
David Pyles
I just looked at your page again. The tag on your display line 597 was
the right one to put the align="center" into. I see it there now.
The <td style="text-align: center"> which now appears in my display on
line 100 needs to have the style="text-align: center" removed. This is
the <td> that controls the text beginning "An exciting day of learning,
networking,". That is the one that is causing your bullets to be in the
center and your text not to align properly.
Anyway, it should be fixed when you upload the file I sent you.
Dave
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T
I expect FF3 and SM2 have removed Quirks mode and now following the
rules strictly now since Web designer and the Like have had more than
enough time to get with the program. Even MS has finally got their act
together and IE8 will work more like Mozilla products. It still may be
capable of using active-X (which is one of the most dangerous code on
the planet) but otherwise will follow more closely W3C standards.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET http://www.vpea.org
If it's "fixed", don't "break it"! mailto:pjo...@kimbanet.com
http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm
Mac G4-500, OSX.3.9, 1.5GB Mac 17" PowerBook G4-1.67 GHz, 2 GB OSX.4.11
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Symes
no serious web designer, Amateur or Pro would or should consider using a
piece of sh** like MS-FrontPage.
It's not the first time I've heard disparaging epithets about FP, but
personally I don't know as it's not something I use, but it does beg a
question.
If FrontPage is so much Poo, why worry if a superior product like Firefox3
won't play with it, perhaps the Ff folks know something. ;-)
Dave S
--
»Q«
"Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T" <pjo...@kimbanet.com> wrote:
> I expect FF3 and SM2 have removed Quirks mode
Fx 3 still has quirks mode (and uses it to display that page). I'd be
surprised if it's been removed from SeaMonkey trunk builds.
Mike Rocket J Squirrel
> Storm has written on 7/12/2008 12:16 PM:
>> You're right: I made reference to a page in my post, and then forgot
>> to paste it in. Sorry about that. Here it is:
>> http://www.resolutionfund.com/Seminars.html
>>
>
> Display is fine here.
>
I'll confirm that the page displays fine with the bullets on the left
where I'd expect to see them. Whole page looks fine. FF3
--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
That's because the page has been in fixed in the meantime. :-)
Storm
error of my ways, and provided the fix.
Storm
entire reason people like be buy it and use it: because we need to
maintain our own sites, but have neither the time nor desire to learn to
code. The only reason people like me are using FP now, long after its
code became not just sloppy, but non-compliant, is sheer inertia. I've
spent 10 years learning FP, and didn't want to sacrifice all that
knowledge (and take the time to learn a new tool) until I absolutely had
to. Now, FF3's intolerance of old standards means I have to make the
change to a new tool, and I have. But I have to say that the FF
developers are probably making a serious strategic mistake. By taking
this elitist, we-won't-let-you-see-it-if-it's-not-up-to-our-standards
approach, they are pissing off their users. There are tons of
non-compliant websites in the world, and all the average user is going
to know is that these sites look fine in IE, but look like crap in FF3.
That's hardly the way to get more people to adopt you product.
John McGaw
> Storm has written on 7/12/2008 12:16 PM:
>> You're right: I made reference to a page in my post, and then forgot
>> to paste it in. Sorry about that. Here it is:
>> http://www.resolutionfund.com/Seminars.html
>>
>
> Display is fine here.
>
Ditto here. FF3 with Adblock Plus 0.7.5.5, Live HTTP Headers 0.14. XP SP2.
No settings for FrontPage were changed that I know of -- at least not
intentionally.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
For whatever reason, you haven't followed the discussion closely. The
problem was fixed by the author a day or so ago, so yes it works.
f'up set to .general