Always use UTC for moztimes

[Rubén Martín]

Hi,

Again I want to remember to everyone, *PLEASE, **use UTC* times for
meetings, events, live recordings... everything!

PSD, PST... etc doesn't make any sense for most mozillians.

As an example, I wasn't able to join Monday's brownbag because it was
announced in PDT and I did the conversion wrong.

I know we have already talked about this, but it seems people forget it
as times goes by :P

Regards.

--
Rubén Martín [Nukeador]
Mozilla Reps Mentor
http://www.mozilla-hispano.org
http://twitter.com/mozilla_hispano
http://facebook.com/mozillahispano

[Pierros Papadeas]

+1000

and please do not confuse GMT for UTC.. they are NOT the same :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC

~p

> _______________________________________________
> mozillians mailing list
> mozil...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozillians
>



--
Pierros Papadeas
Community Architect
pierros @ irc.mozilla.org

[Irvin]

Also UTC can prevent problem on DST (Day-light saving time),
I'd many times mis-convert the times for that I'd no idea it's under DST.

On 2013年5月1日Wednesday at 下午10:31, Pierros Papadeas wrote:

> +1000
>
> and please do not confuse GMT for UTC.. they are NOT the same :)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC
>
> ~p
>
> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Rubén Martín
> <nuke...@mozilla-hispano.org (mailto:nuke...@mozilla-hispano.org)> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Again I want to remember to everyone, *PLEASE, **use UTC* times for
> > meetings, events, live recordings... everything!
> >
> > PSD, PST... etc doesn't make any sense for most mozillians.
> >
> > As an example, I wasn't able to join Monday's brownbag because it was
> > announced in PDT and I did the conversion wrong.
> >
> > I know we have already talked about this, but it seems people forget it
> > as times goes by :P
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> > --
> > Rubén Martín [Nukeador]
> > Mozilla Reps Mentor
> > http://www.mozilla-hispano.org
> > http://twitter.com/mozilla_hispano
> > http://facebook.com/mozillahispano
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mozillians mailing list

> > mozil...@lists.mozilla.org (mailto:mozil...@lists.mozilla.org)

> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozillians
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> Pierros Papadeas
> Community Architect

> pierros @ irc.mozilla.org (http://irc.mozilla.org)
> _______________________________________________
> mozillians mailing list
> mozil...@lists.mozilla.org (mailto:mozil...@lists.mozilla.org)
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozillians
>
>

[Leo McArdle]

On 1 May 2013 15:31, Pierros Papadeas <pie...@mozilla.com> wrote:
> and please do not confuse GMT for UTC.. they are NOT the same :)

Well... they're pretty similar. A few seconds here and there isn't much :P

[Pierros Papadeas]

Actually they are not. GMT jumps around depending on DST on UTC+0 or
UTC+1. (Some also call GMT, GDT then)

So in order to avoid such confusions and be graceful to (wise)
countries that do not use DST please use UTC :)

~p

[Kyle Huey]

On May 1, 2013 8:54 AM, "Pierros Papadeas" <pie...@mozilla.com> wrote:
>
> Actually they are not. GMT jumps around depending on DST on UTC+0 or
> UTC+1. (Some also call GMT, GDT then)

No, it doesn't. Don't confuse GMT with the time in Greenwich England. When
the UK is on summer time they are not the same.

> So in order to avoid such confusions and be graceful to (wise)
> countries that do not use DST please use UTC :)
>
> ~p
>
> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Leo McArdle <l...@mozilla.org.uk> wrote:
> > On 1 May 2013 15:31, Pierros Papadeas <pie...@mozilla.com> wrote:
> >> and please do not confuse GMT for UTC.. they are NOT the same :)
> >
> > Well... they're pretty similar. A few seconds here and there isn't much
:P
>
>
>
> --
> Pierros Papadeas
> Community Architect
> pierros @ irc.mozilla.org

> _______________________________________________
> mozillians mailing list
> mozil...@lists.mozilla.org

> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozillians

[Benoit Jacob]

On 13-05-01 10:24 AM, Rub�n Mart�n wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Again I want to remember to everyone, *PLEASE, **use UTC* times for
> meetings, events, live recordings... everything!
>
> PSD, PST... etc doesn't make any sense for most mozillians.

Sorry to have to be the one going against idealism here... but most
people aren't comfortable with UTC either.

Benoit

[Stormy Peters]

This tool is great:
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html

Many calendars will also let you add another time zone in the calendar so
you can see what time it is in UTC or PDT or ...

Stormy


On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Benoit Jacob <bja...@mozilla.com> wrote:

[Stephanie Daugherty]

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Benoit Jacob <bja...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> Sorry to have to be the one going against idealism here... but most
> people aren't comfortable with UTC either.
>

I don't think this has anything to do with what we're comfortable with,
rather it's everything to do with the fact that people are more likely to
be familiar with how their particular timezone's offset from UTC and it's
various rules for daylight savings and such work, therefore it's a
compromise - inconvenience everyone equally, or exclude people due to time
confusion.

Realities of a global, connected world.

[Irvin Chen]

Pleaser consider about lots of mozillians outside of USA,
we don't know about what the EDT PDT PST is,
but everyone do know what the exactly time would be by counting UTC+n.

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 12:12 AM, Benoit Jacob <bja...@mozilla.com> wrote:

>
> On 13-05-01 10:24 AM, Rubén Martín wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Again I want to remember to everyone, *PLEASE, **use UTC* times for
> > meetings, events, live recordings... everything!
> >
> > PSD, PST... etc doesn't make any sense for most mozillians.
>

> Sorry to have to be the one going against idealism here... but most
> people aren't comfortable with UTC either.
>

> Benoit
>
> _______________________________________________
> mozillians mailing list
> mozil...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozillians
>

--
@ irvinfly: community liaison
moztw.org Mozilla Taiwan community

[Rubén Martín]

El 01/05/13 19:01, Irvin Chen escribió:

> Pleaser consider about lots of mozillians outside of USA,

It's not just "lots", it's "most" :P

[Leo McArdle]

On 1 May 2013 16:53, Pierros Papadeas <pie...@mozilla.com> wrote:
> Actually they are not. GMT jumps around depending on DST on UTC+0 or
> UTC+1. (Some also call GMT, GDT then)

Not at all. Britain is currently observing DST, and so we've switched
our timezone to BST (British Summertime, GMT+1). GMT is still UTC+0
(plus or minus a few seconds).

[Gabriela Montagu]

On 1 May 2013 14:44, Leo McArdle <l...@mozilla.org.uk> wrote:

>
> Not at all. Britain is currently observing DST, and so we've switched
> our timezone to BST (British Summertime, GMT+1). GMT is still UTC+0
> (plus or minus a few seconds).

Just that's why it's best to consider UTC!

As Irving said:

"
everyone know
s

what the exactly time would be by counting UTC+

/-
n
"
.




Best regards,
Gabriela

[Ashickur Rahman Noor]

I always mess with time zone. For me UTC is better. Or if you use any other
time zone please provide a link with time conversion :D .
----------------------------------------------------------
Dedicated Linux Forum in Bangladesh <http://goo.gl/238Ck>
2048R/89C932E1 <http://goo.gl/TkP5U>
Mozilla Reps <http://reps.mozilla.org>
01199151550, 01551151550

[Majken Connor]

I have also been told that GMT isn't really the time zone anymore, that
outside of England it is Western European Time. Not to debate it but just
to agree that GMT is confusing, besides the Daylight savings issue. The
only confusion with UTC is for people who have not yet adjusted to using
it. It is also much simpler to look up your home time in UTC than it is to
get a good converter from your time to another timezone given the
differences in DST.

We do need to note the Mozilla meetings that anchor their time to PT/ET so
people know to look up when the meeting shifts, and hey, why not put out a
reminder email twice a year.

[Chris Ilias]

On 2013-05-01 10:24 AM, Rub�n Mart�n wrote:
> Again I want to remember to everyone, *PLEASE, **use UTC* times for
> meetings, events, live recordings... everything!
>
> PSD, PST... etc doesn't make any sense for most mozillians.
>
> As an example, I wasn't able to join Monday's brownbag because it was
> announced in PDT and I did the conversion wrong.
>
> I know we have already talked about this, but it seems people forget it
> as times goes by :P

Where was this discussed before, and how does UTC prevent people from
having to do time zone conversion? Sorry if it's a clueless question;
I'm not educated on what UTC is.

[Stephanie Daugherty]

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Chris Ilias <nm...@ilias.ca> wrote:

>
> Where was this discussed before, and how does UTC prevent people from
> having to do time zone conversion? Sorry if it's a clueless question; I'm
> not educated on what UTC is.

It doesn't. Rather, it insures that almost everybody has to do the
conversion once for every event - but it makes that conversion as easy as
possible because it starts from an internationally agreed "0" point
(essentially, time at the prime meridian, with no offsets for daylight
savings), and means that everybody only has to know a single set of
conversions - local to and from UTC.

The idea is that everyone can easily learn their own offset from UTC, and
therefore, it's a neutral, and *unambiguous* time reference, rather than
everybody working with pairs of time zones that they are unfamiliar with,
especially when many of those time zones all have their own schedule for
changing from daylight saving to standard time, or don't observe DST. (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_by_country)

[Fredy Rouge Rouge]

Please UTC, is easy the U is about *UNIVERSAL!!! *Just that we need.


2013/5/1 Stephanie Daugherty <sdaug...@gmail.com>

> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Chris Ilias <nm...@ilias.ca> wrote:
>
> >

> > Where was this discussed before, and how does UTC prevent people from
> > having to do time zone conversion? Sorry if it's a clueless question; I'm
> > not educated on what UTC is.
>
>
>

> It doesn't. Rather, it insures that almost everybody has to do the
> conversion once for every event - but it makes that conversion as easy as
> possible because it starts from an internationally agreed "0" point
> (essentially, time at the prime meridian, with no offsets for daylight
> savings), and means that everybody only has to know a single set of
> conversions - local to and from UTC.
>
> The idea is that everyone can easily learn their own offset from UTC, and
> therefore, it's a neutral, and *unambiguous* time reference, rather than
> everybody working with pairs of time zones that they are unfamiliar with,
> especially when many of those time zones all have their own schedule for
> changing from daylight saving to standard time, or don't observe DST. (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_by_country)

> _______________________________________________
> mozillians mailing list
> mozil...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozillians
>

--
Fredy Rouge - Leader, Créatif, Autodidacte et Geek ☺

[Gervase Markham]

Hi nukeador,

On 01/05/13 15:24, Rubén Martín wrote:
> Again I want to remember to everyone, *PLEASE, **use UTC* times for
> meetings, events, live recordings... everything!

If you want to promote this message across Mozilla, you'll need to say
it in more places than just mozilla.mozillians.

> PSD, PST... etc doesn't make any sense for most mozillians.

The counter-argument here is that the set time for many Mozilla meetings
is in Pacific time - that is, all through the year, the Weekly Status
meeting happens at e.g. 11am Pacific Time. Therefore, if you require the
announcement to be in UTC, then the person doing the announcement has to
remember to update the time (and any timeanddate.com links) twice a
year. And if they forget, some people turn up at the wrong time.

> As an example, I wasn't able to join Monday's brownbag because it was
> announced in PDT and I did the conversion wrong.

I counter-propose that meeting times should be the same throughout the
year in whichever timezone they are defined in (which doesn't have to be
PDT) and that meeting announcers should be asked to include a
timeanddate.com (or some other service which takes a time on the URL and
tells you what it'll be in your local time) in every announcement.

Gerv

[Janet Swisher]

On 5/2/13 7:56 AM, Gervase Markham wrote:

> if you require the announcement to be in UTC, then the person doing
> the announcement has to remember to update the time (and any
> timeanddate.com links) twice a year. And if they forget, some people
> turn up at the wrong time.

There are two issues:
* Figuring time conversions for one-off meetings like brown bags
* Notifying people about changes of regular meetings because of
winter/summer time shifts

In most cases, the time offset between two locations is stable except
for the few weeks twice a year when part of the world has shifted, but
the other part hasn't. For the one regular public meeting that I run, I
give the time in both Pacific Time and UTC. When time shifts happen, I
add "**NOTE TIME CHANGE**" to my announcement emails. People still
ignore or forget, and show up at the wrong time. This will happen no
matter how careful the meeting organizer is, because attendees add the
meeting to their personal calendar in their local time, and forget to
change it.

>> As an example, I wasn't able to join Monday's brownbag because it was
>> announced in PDT and I did the conversion wrong.
> I counter-propose that meeting times should be the same throughout the
> year in whichever timezone they are defined in (which doesn't have to be
> PDT) and that meeting announcers should be asked to include a
> timeanddate.com (or some other service which takes a time on the URL and
> tells you what it'll be in your local time) in every announcement.
>

In particular, you can use this page on timeanddate.com to generate such
a URL:
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedform.html

I suggest we start promoting the use of this service within Mozilla. (If
there's an open source alternative, please share; meanwhile, this one is
simple and free.) Simply clicking a link to see a meeting time in your
time zone is much easier than filling out a form yourself, or doing
"time zone math".

--
Janet Swisher <mailto:jREMOVE...@mozilla.com>
Mozilla Developer Network <https://developer.mozilla.org>
Technical Writer/Community Steward

[Majken Connor]

Most calendar products are also good at following the conversion. I hate
recommending google products, but it does a good job of keeping track of
the meeting time for you.

We have ics calendar resources through Mozilla, we should be able to put
them to use. Maybe an event that is downloaded from calendar software will
speak to the calendar software it's imported to and know when to change the
time?

That said, I want to repeat my suggestion of sending out a blast (not per
meeting) but Mozilla-wide to remind people that HQ has entered/left
daylight savings and to adjust your meeting times accordingly. Perhaps via
Mozillians, maybe over all the mailing lists like the mailman reminders.

Reps anchor their meeting times, btw to UTC. It would be interesting to see
if any other teams are brave enough to try this. Having had that
experience, it definitely is much easier to think about UTC than to convert
from multiple timezones. Also, some teams will anchor their meetings in ET.
A long time ago I know it was policy to anchor and announce all meetings in
PT as that's where HQ is. I think for consistency sake meeting times should
always _include_ UTC, even if they are also announced in the anchor time
zone. I've missed some meetings because the time was announced ET and I
assumed it was PT.

BTW you might notice how I'm typing the timezones, even people *in* ET/PT
will keep tying PST even when it's really PDT. That's another bit of
confusion that is saved when using UTC.

So, my two suggestions are:

1. Use Mozilla tools to provide calendar invites that will automatically
convert
2. Send out blasts when PT enters and leaves DST (and I wouldn't be opposed
to doing it as well when EU does it, I only suggest PT because that is the
timezone most of the meetings are anchored in, if we widen the scope we'll
have too many announcements!).

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Janet Swisher <jswi...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> On 5/2/13 7:56 AM, Gervase Markham wrote:
>

> if you require the announcement to be in UTC, then the person doing the

>> announcement has to remember to update the time (and any timeanddate.comlinks) twice a year. And if they forget, some people turn up at the wrong
>> time.
>>

> There are two issues:
> * Figuring time conversions for one-off meetings like brown bags
> * Notifying people about changes of regular meetings because of
> winter/summer time shifts
>
> In most cases, the time offset between two locations is stable except for
> the few weeks twice a year when part of the world has shifted, but the
> other part hasn't. For the one regular public meeting that I run, I give
> the time in both Pacific Time and UTC. When time shifts happen, I add
> "**NOTE TIME CHANGE**" to my announcement emails. People still ignore or
> forget, and show up at the wrong time. This will happen no matter how
> careful the meeting organizer is, because attendees add the meeting to
> their personal calendar in their local time, and forget to change it.
>
>

> As an example, I wasn't able to join Monday's brownbag because it was
>>> announced in PDT and I did the conversion wrong.
>>>
>> I counter-propose that meeting times should be the same throughout the
>> year in whichever timezone they are defined in (which doesn't have to be
>> PDT) and that meeting announcers should be asked to include a
>> timeanddate.com (or some other service which takes a time on the URL and
>> tells you what it'll be in your local time) in every announcement.
>>

>> In particular, you can use this page on timeanddate.com to generate
> such a URL:

> http://www.timeanddate.com/**worldclock/fixedform.html<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedform.html>

>
> I suggest we start promoting the use of this service within Mozilla. (If
> there's an open source alternative, please share; meanwhile, this one is
> simple and free.) Simply clicking a link to see a meeting time in your time
> zone is much easier than filling out a form yourself, or doing "time zone
> math".
>
> --

> Janet Swisher <mailto:jREMOVEswisher@**mozilla.com<jREMOVE...@mozilla.com>
> >
> Mozilla Developer Network <https://developer.mozilla.org**>
> Technical Writer/Community Steward
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> mozillians mailing list
> mozil...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/**listinfo/mozillians<https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozillians>
>

[Rubén Martín]

El 02/05/13 14:56, Gervase Markham escribió:

> If you want to promote this message across Mozilla, you'll need to say
> it in more places than just mozilla.mozillians.

It seems like the more on-topic list to post this. But you are right.

>
>> > PSD, PST... etc doesn't make any sense for most mozillians.
> The counter-argument here is that the set time for many Mozilla meetings
> is in Pacific time - that is, all through the year, the Weekly Status
> meeting happens at e.g. 11am Pacific Time. Therefore, if you require the
> announcement to be in UTC, then the person doing the announcement has to
> remember to update the time (and any timeanddate.com links) twice a
> year. And if they forget, some people turn up at the wrong time.

Twice a year. One person. Nothing to add ;)

>
>> > As an example, I wasn't able to join Monday's brownbag because it was
>> > announced in PDT and I did the conversion wrong.
> I counter-propose that meeting times should be the same throughout the
> year in whichever timezone they are defined in (which doesn't have to be
> PDT) and that meeting announcers should be asked to include a
> timeanddate.com (or some other service which takes a time on the URL and
> tells you what it'll be in your local time) in every announcement.

Our experience at Mozilla Hispano is very revealing: We are like 5
different time zones, we do dozens of meetings, we use always UTC with a
link to timezone, everybody is happy.

[Janet Swisher]

On 5/2/13 12:24 PM, Majken Connor wrote:
>
> That said, I want to repeat my suggestion of sending out a blast (not
> per meeting) but Mozilla-wide to remind people that HQ has
> entered/left daylight savings and to adjust your meeting times
> accordingly. Perhaps via Mozillians, maybe over all the mailing lists
> like the mailman reminders.

David Baron usually sends out a bi-annual email to all employees (and
possibly other mailing lists he's on), summarizing upcoming shifts.
(That is, when North America shifts, when Europe does, and other parts
of the world.) If whoever is responsible for communicating with "all
mozillians" could send that out to everyone in the project, it would be
very helpful.


--
Janet Swisher <mailto:jREMOVE...@mozilla.com>

Mozilla Developer Network <https://developer.mozilla.org>

Technical Writer/Community Steward

[Gervase Markham]

On 02/05/13 18:24, Majken Connor wrote:
> That said, I want to repeat my suggestion of sending out a blast (not
> per meeting) but Mozilla-wide to remind people that HQ has
> entered/left daylight savings and to adjust your meeting times
> accordingly. Perhaps via Mozillians, maybe over all the mailing lists
> like the mailman reminders.

dbaron does this with great clarity and regularity; if you aren't seeing
it, email him and suggest he post his notices in more places.

> Reps anchor their meeting times, btw to UTC. It would be interesting
> to see if any other teams are brave enough to try this.

The worst of all worlds is having half the meetings in an organization
fixed to (northern hemisphere) DST-observing timezones, and half in UTC.
Because every six months, it suddenly means that a bunch of regular
meetings clash with each other. And then people curse and rearrange
them, only to have them clash with something else six months later.

Given that Mozilla has started with most of its meetings in Pacific
Time, I think that trying to switch to UTC gradually would have lots of
nasty costs like that.

> BTW you might notice how I'm typing the timezones, even people *in*
> ET/PT will keep tying PST even when it's really PDT. That's another
> bit of confusion that is saved when using UTC.

That _is_ true.

Gerv

[Gervase Markham]

On 02/05/13 17:03, Janet Swisher wrote:
> In most cases, the time offset between two locations is stable except
> for the few weeks twice a year when part of the world has shifted, but
> the other part hasn't. For the one regular public meeting that I run, I
> give the time in both Pacific Time and UTC. When time shifts happen, I
> add "**NOTE TIME CHANGE**" to my announcement emails. People still
> ignore or forget, and show up at the wrong time. This will happen no
> matter how careful the meeting organizer is, because attendees add the
> meeting to their personal calendar in their local time, and forget to
> change it.

Attendees should add the meeting to their calendar in the timezone in
which it's fixed. Google Calendar certainly allows that; I'm sure other
calendars do too. Then there's no problem; it does all the conversions
for you, both at the time of addition and across and DST change.

Being part of an international project means you need to know how to use
your tools to work internationally :-)

> In particular, you can use this page on timeanddate.com to generate such
> a URL:
> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedform.html
>
> I suggest we start promoting the use of this service within Mozilla. (If
> there's an open source alternative, please share; meanwhile, this one is
> simple and free.) Simply clicking a link to see a meeting time in your
> time zone is much easier than filling out a form yourself, or doing
> "time zone math".

This is a great service, although the "Add to Calendar" link makes me
very sad that after 5 years we still haven't implemented
registerContentHandler() properly and so I can't configure Firefox to
pass that link to Google Calendar :-((

Gerv