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Please don't use "persona" for any new thing we are marketing

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Robert Kaiser

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Jan 30, 2012, 1:21:52 PM1/30/12
to
Hi marketing folks,

I saw it mentioned elsewhere (mozilla.mozillians) that we are
considering the use of "Persona" as a marketing name for a new
feature/project. Can we please refrain from that?

My concern is not only the confusion it makes with our long-going
"Personas" stuff, which will be around in historical stuff for a long
time even if we'd rebrand it "yesterday", I'm rather more concerned
about localization/internationalization issues. The meaning implied by
the word "persona" in the US is AFAIK not reflected anywhere else in the
world, and confusing for many outside this country, at least really
really hard to localize or describe in a local language elsewhere.
And when not localized, it look like a typo of "person" to many people,
including non-US people who know to speak English but never hear about
that a "persona" exists or what it should be. At best, they are confused
and have no idea what "their person" should be.

Can we pretty please select product/marketing names in a way that fits
with internationalization and localization of our messaging?

Thanks,

Robert Kaiser

Majken Connor

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Jan 30, 2012, 1:29:20 PM1/30/12
to Robert Kaiser, mark...@lists.mozilla.org
It's my understanding that there's already been a lot of discussion
around this. It would be great to get updated on that so we can be
constructive rather than rehash anything that's already been explored!
> _______________________________________________
> Interested in promoting Mozilla? Check out the Mozilla Community Marketing
> Guide: http://contribute.mozilla.org/Marketing
> mark...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/marketing

Rubén Martín

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Feb 4, 2012, 10:15:33 AM2/4/12
to mark...@lists.mozilla.org
Hello,

Any news about this?

I've just asked on World Ready mailing list because the goal of that
list is supposed to be discussing these kind of things:

https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/world-ready

Most of us are *really* worried about using "Persona" again.

Regards.

PS: Could someone change this list behavior to "Reply to list" instead
of "Reply to sender"? I thought it was corrected long time ago.

--
Rubén Martín [Nukeador]
Mozilla Reps Council Member
http://www.mozilla-hispano.org
http://twitter.com/mozilla_hispano
http://facebook.com/mozillahispano

signature.asc

Patrick Finch

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Feb 6, 2012, 5:16:34 AM2/6/12
to Rubén Martín, mark...@lists.mozilla.org

On 2/4/2012 4:15 PM, Rubén Martín wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Any news about this?
>
> I've just asked on World Ready mailing list because the goal of that
> list is supposed to be discussing these kind of things:
>
> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/world-ready
>
> Most of us are *really* worried about using "Persona" again.

I don't have a strong opinion about the name - although it's clearly
unfortunate that we use the same name for different products. However,
I am pretty sure that planning is so far ahead that we will use
"Persona" as the name for this product.

The concerns you have with this name: do you feel they have been
understood and overruled by other preferences for using the name, or not
understood at all?

(I ask because we should be using all our intelligence to make a
decision, but then, the person responsible for the decision needs to be
able to make that decision without the rest of us feeling we have a "veto".)


> Regards.
>
> PS: Could someone change this list behavior to "Reply to list" instead
> of "Reply to sender"? I thought it was corrected long time ago.

Mailman settings for Mozilla lists strong recommend that setting is
reply to poster - although I will admit I don't understand why.

I changed to add a reply-to list as well. Let's see how that works.

best,

Patrick


>
> _______________________________________________
> Interested in promoting Mozilla? Check out the Mozilla Community Marketing Guide: http://contribute.mozilla.org/Marketing
> mark...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/marketing

--
Patrick Finch
Mozilla
pat...@mozilla.com
Mobile: +46 768 444 833
Office: +1 650 903 0800 ext. 340
Twitter: @patrickf
IM: patric...@gmail.com

Iacopo Benesperi

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Feb 6, 2012, 8:38:18 AM2/6/12
to
Patrick Finch ha scritto:
> I don't have a strong opinion about the name - although it's clearly
> unfortunate that we use the same name for different products. However,
> I am pretty sure that planning is so far ahead that we will use
> "Persona" as the name for this product.
>
> The concerns you have with this name: do you feel they have been
> understood and overruled by other preferences for using the name, or not
> understood at all?
>
> (I ask because we should be using all our intelligence to make a
> decision, but then, the person responsible for the decision needs to be
> able to make that decision without the rest of us feeling we have a
> "veto".)

On this subject I'll say this (and then I'll shut up because it's
pointless to complain any further): we've created a mailing list (world
ready) to discuss about this kind of problems before it was too late.
In that mailing list, everyone has gone against the use of Persona
because of a possible misunderstanding with the previous product.

Apart from this, me (the Italian community) and Rubén (the Spanish
community; I'd like to remember here that Spanish is the 3rd most spoken
language in the world) has asked not to use Persona because it's a real
pain in the ass from a language point of view in our locales.

Despite this, you just go straight on your road, trash everything we've
said and use that word anyway. I don't know if the person who needs to
make the decision has understood our complains and fears, but if you
re-read the discussion you'll notice that you have to be "deaf-minded"
if a light didn't switch on saying "this is a bad idea".

Thus said, you can do whatever you want, but then I'll just unsubscribe
from the world ready mailing list and this ng, because my time can be
used in more productive ways.

Iacopo

Patrick Finch

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Feb 6, 2012, 8:56:20 AM2/6/12
to Iacopo Benesperi, mark...@lists.mozilla.org


On 2/6/2012 2:38 PM, Iacopo Benesperi wrote:
> Patrick Finch ha scritto:
>> I don't have a strong opinion about the name - although it's clearly
>> unfortunate that we use the same name for different products. However,
>> I am pretty sure that planning is so far ahead that we will use
>> "Persona" as the name for this product.
>>
>> The concerns you have with this name: do you feel they have been
>> understood and overruled by other preferences for using the name, or not
>> understood at all?
>>
>> (I ask because we should be using all our intelligence to make a
>> decision, but then, the person responsible for the decision needs to be
>> able to make that decision without the rest of us feeling we have a
>> "veto".)
>
> On this subject I'll say this (and then I'll shut up because it's
> pointless to complain any further): we've created a mailing list (world
> ready) to discuss about this kind of problems before it was too late.
> In that mailing list, everyone has gone against the use of Persona
> because of a possible misunderstanding with the previous product.

Hi Iacopo.

That's a concern that I am sure anyone proposing reusing the name
Persona would share. I don't think you need to "shut up", but I'm not
interested in complaining either: I am interested to see if we could or
should have done this differently.

> Apart from this, me (the Italian community) and Rubén (the Spanish
> community; I'd like to remember here that Spanish is the 3rd most spoken
> language in the world) has asked not to use Persona because it's a real
> pain in the ass from a language point of view in our locales.
>
> Despite this, you just go straight on your road, trash everything we've
> said and use that word anyway. I don't know if the person who needs to
> make the decision has understood our complains and fears, but if you
> re-read the discussion you'll notice that you have to be "deaf-minded"
> if a light didn't switch on saying "this is a bad idea".

That's an assertion that I don't feel qualified to make, perhaps you do.
It seems to me that it is possible that there can be good reasons to
use the term "Persona" that could even be more important than the needs
of localisation: what I want to understand is, has that call been made?
Were there other requirements on the table, or was the discussion not
factored in?

Working on product marketing, I consider myself a pretty big stakeholder
in the naming of a product too, but I also understand that to register
an international trademark for a software product that bears any
relation to the product itself is very difficult. And so I don't
necessarily expect my opinion to carry the day. What I don't want to
accept is being deaf-minded, as you put it.


> Thus said, you can do whatever you want, but then I'll just unsubscribe
> from the world ready mailing list and this ng, because my time can be
> used in more productive ways.

If your input is not being considered at all, I would agree, and we
should fix it. I actually think those naming the product did take that
into account.

Please could you forward the link to the world-ready discussion, and I
will check?


Patrick



> Iacopo

Iacopo Benesperi

unread,
Feb 6, 2012, 9:15:05 AM2/6/12
to
Patrick Finch ha scritto:
> That's an assertion that I don't feel qualified to make, perhaps you do.
> It seems to me that it is possible that there can be good reasons to
> use the term "Persona" that could even be more important than the needs
> of localisation: what I want to understand is, has that call been made?
> Were there other requirements on the table, or was the discussion not
> factored in?

The only good reason that has been given to us (at least that I've read
and remember), quoting choffmann, is: "But, I'm also concerned that if
we limit brand names to not ever using anything that could be literally
translated, we significantly reduce the number of names available for
brands."
Which, if you ask me, is not so "even more important", even considering
the fact that everyone was against it (the product name), and the
Spanish community in particular (not exactly a language spoken by 300k
people).
And, we didn't just complain, but also proposed a good bunch of possible
alternative names (this was middle December), but it looks like none of
them has been taken into account (at least, we haven't read anything
like "this is not a good name beacause...").

> Working on product marketing, I consider myself a pretty big stakeholder
> in the naming of a product too, but I also understand that to register
> an international trademark for a software product that bears any
> relation to the product itself is very difficult. And so I don't
> necessarily expect my opinion to carry the day. What I don't want to
> accept is being deaf-minded, as you put it.
>
> If your input is not being considered at all, I would agree, and we
> should fix it. I actually think those naming the product did take
> that into account.
>
> Please could you forward the link to the world-ready discussion, and I
> will check?

The deaf-minded bit had the meaning that, IMO, our reasons have been
explained quite clearly, for everyone to understand. Of course, if you
haven't subscribed the world-ready mailing list, you haven't read them.
But then, that mailing list has been created to discuss exactly these
marketing matters, so I invite you to consier subscribing it:
https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/world-ready
Finally, the mailing list archives are browseable only by subscribed
members so I can't give you a link to the discussion, but if you don't
want to subscribe I can give you a mbox file with all the messages
regarding that discussion.

Iacopo

Majken Connor

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Feb 6, 2012, 9:23:10 AM2/6/12
to Patrick Finch, Iacopo Benesperi, mark...@lists.mozilla.org
I think a big problem here is communication style.

Something I've learned from doing support, and also really from being
a parent is that people really just care that you will listen to them
and take them into consideration. It's really better to say you've
made the decision without trying to make a token gesture to the
community (which I'm not saying is what happened here, just for
comparison).

I guess the analogy that sticks in my head is when you see a parent
walking away leading a crying child by the hand. While the parent is
talking to the child to explain their decision the body language is
pretty clear that the kid has no chance to change the parent's mind
and that is frustrating. I think that's how people are feeling with
this situation. They were asked their opinion but they're not feeling
like they had any real power with that opinion.

The other part that's missing is that we don't understand how Persona
is the winner. We don't know what else you considered and why it
didn't win out. So far the answer to that has been "it fits and we
think we can make it work" which makes it *seem* like you guys just
liked it too much to consider something else, which I don't think is
what happened.

-Lucy

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Patrick Finch <pfi...@mozilla.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 2/6/2012 2:38 PM, Iacopo Benesperi wrote:
>>
>> Patrick Finch ha scritto:
>>>
>>> I don't have a strong opinion about the name - although it's clearly
>>> unfortunate that we use the same name for different products.  However,
>>> I am pretty sure that planning is so far ahead that we will use
>>> "Persona" as the name for this product.
>>>
>>> The concerns you have with this name: do you feel they have been
>>> understood and overruled by other preferences for using the name, or not
>>> understood at all?
>>>
>>> (I ask because we should be using all our intelligence to make a
>>> decision, but then, the person responsible for the decision needs to be
>>> able to make that decision without the rest of us feeling we have a
>>> "veto".)
>>
>>
>> On this subject I'll say this (and then I'll shut up because it's
>> pointless to complain any further): we've created a mailing list (world
>> ready) to discuss about this kind of problems before it was too late.
>> In that mailing list, everyone has gone against the use of Persona
>> because of a possible misunderstanding with the previous product.
>
>
> Hi Iacopo.
>
> That's a concern that I am sure anyone proposing reusing the name Persona
> would share.  I don't think you need to "shut up", but I'm not interested in
> complaining either: I am interested to see if we could or should have done
> this differently.
>
>
>> Apart from this, me (the Italian community) and Rubén (the Spanish
>> community; I'd like to remember here that Spanish is the 3rd most spoken
>> language in the world) has asked not to use Persona because it's a real
>> pain in the ass from a language point of view in our locales.
>>
>> Despite this, you just go straight on your road, trash everything we've
>> said and use that word anyway. I don't know if the person who needs to
>> make the decision has understood our complains and fears, but if you
>> re-read the discussion you'll notice that you have to be "deaf-minded"
>> if a light didn't switch on saying "this is a bad idea".
>
>
> That's an assertion that I don't feel qualified to make, perhaps you do.  It
> seems to me that it is possible that there can be good reasons to use the
> term "Persona" that could even be more important than the needs of
> localisation: what I want to understand is, has that call been made?   Were
> there other requirements on the table, or was the discussion not factored
> in?
>
> Working on product marketing, I consider myself a pretty big stakeholder in
> the naming of a product too, but I also understand that to register an
> international trademark for a software product that bears any relation to
> the product itself is very difficult.  And so I don't necessarily expect my
> opinion to carry the day.   What I don't want to accept is being
> deaf-minded, as you put it.
>
>
>
>> Thus said, you can do whatever you want, but then I'll just unsubscribe
>> from the world ready mailing list and this ng, because my time can be
>> used in more productive ways.
>
>
> If your input is not being considered at all, I would agree, and we should
> fix it.  I actually think those naming the product did take that into
> account.
>
> Please could you forward the link to the world-ready discussion, and I will
> check?
>
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>> Iacopo

Patrick Finch

unread,
Feb 6, 2012, 9:25:10 AM2/6/12
to Iacopo Benesperi, mark...@lists.mozilla.org


On 2/6/2012 3:15 PM, Iacopo Benesperi wrote:
> Patrick Finch ha scritto:
>> That's an assertion that I don't feel qualified to make, perhaps you do.
>> It seems to me that it is possible that there can be good reasons to
>> use the term "Persona" that could even be more important than the needs
>> of localisation: what I want to understand is, has that call been made?
>> Were there other requirements on the table, or was the discussion not
>> factored in?
>
> The only good reason that has been given to us (at least that I've read
> and remember), quoting choffmann, is: "But, I'm also concerned that if
> we limit brand names to not ever using anything that could be literally
> translated, we significantly reduce the number of names available for
> brands."
> Which, if you ask me, is not so "even more important", even considering
> the fact that everyone was against it (the product name), and the
> Spanish community in particular (not exactly a language spoken by 300k
> people).
> And, we didn't just complain, but also proposed a good bunch of possible
> alternative names (this was middle December), but it looks like none of
> them has been taken into account (at least, we haven't read anything
> like "this is not a good name beacause...").

(by the way, I certainly wasn't accusing you of complaining then or now
- you mentioned that "it's pointless to complain any further", I wanted
to be clear that I did think we should discuss more, and that I thought
that would be constructive).

>> Working on product marketing, I consider myself a pretty big stakeholder
>> in the naming of a product too, but I also understand that to register
>> an international trademark for a software product that bears any
>> relation to the product itself is very difficult. And so I don't
>> necessarily expect my opinion to carry the day. What I don't want to
>> accept is being deaf-minded, as you put it.
>>
>> If your input is not being considered at all, I would agree, and we
>> should fix it. I actually think those naming the product did take
>> that into account.
>>
>> Please could you forward the link to the world-ready discussion, and I
>> will check?
>
> The deaf-minded bit had the meaning that, IMO, our reasons have been
> explained quite clearly, for everyone to understand. Of course, if you
> haven't subscribed the world-ready mailing list, you haven't read them.
> But then, that mailing list has been created to discuss exactly these
> marketing matters, so I invite you to consier subscribing it:
> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/world-ready
> Finally, the mailing list archives are browseable only by subscribed
> members so I can't give you a link to the discussion, but if you don't
> want to subscribe I can give you a mbox file with all the messages
> regarding that discussion.

indeed, I agree that anyone involved in naming should be subscribed.

Iacopo Benesperi

unread,
Feb 6, 2012, 9:43:34 AM2/6/12
to
Majken Connor ha scritto:
> I think a big problem here is communication style.
>
> Something I've learned from doing support, and also really from being
> a parent is that people really just care that you will listen to them
> and take them into consideration. It's really better to say you've
> made the decision without trying to make a token gesture to the
> community (which I'm not saying is what happened here, just for
> comparison).

Look, since not everyone here knows the whole story and why I'm starting
to be really pissed off about this word (probably you don't know it,
too), I'll write down the long story.

This story starts more or less two years ago (when Persona/Personas was
first launched). After the launch, the Italian and the Spanish
communities (Rubén correct me if I'm wrong) started complaining about
this word, because for us is really a pain. There've been a lot of
discussions about this in these two years, we've talked about it at
every MozCamp or Mozilla Summit we've made. Heck, we've even made a
meeting in Florence (the Italian community with Axel, Mary, Chris) to
discuss about this and Persona was the main example.
The result of the discussion was an admission that Mozilla did wrong in
the past and that l10n had to be considered from the beginning: the
choice of a name. The world ready mailing list has been created mainly
for this purpose (and online campaigns).
Now after 2 years of discussions, you come back with Persona again!
Exactly the subject of all these discussions! And, as if nothing
happened, you're going to use it again despite all the l10n opinions.

I hope that this situation, from my POW, is more clear now.

> The other part that's missing is that we don't understand how Persona
> is the winner. We don't know what else you considered and why it
> didn't win out. So far the answer to that has been "it fits and we
> think we can make it work" which makes it *seem* like you guys just
> liked it too much to consider something else, which I don't think is
> what happened.

Actually, in the world ready mailing list (which again I invite you to
join and spread the word about) we've come out with a lot of
alternatives and, as I said, noone have told us "these are not good
because...", or "Persona is still the best choice because...", they've
just been moved into oblivion. So, I don't what it seems like, because
noone actually told us anything, and this is so much more annoying.

Ok, sorry for the rant, I feel better now :-)

Iacopo

Patrick Finch

unread,
Feb 6, 2012, 10:04:02 AM2/6/12
to Iacopo Benesperi, mark...@lists.mozilla.org
So do I :)

That was helpful, thanks. I didn't know all this.

Ken Saunders

unread,
Feb 6, 2012, 11:54:14 AM2/6/12
to mark...@lists.mozilla.org
For what it's worth.

Renaming Personas
http://blog.mozilla.com/addons/2012/02/02/renaming-personas/

"So, we’d like to rename Personas to something more understandable and localizable."

"We’ve come up with several options for a new name and want to know what you think. Please take a look at the poll below and submit your vote by Wednesday, February 8"

Please participate, and don't choose Themes. Backgrounds is a better, and more accurate name. :)

Ken

Tara Shahian

unread,
Feb 6, 2012, 2:51:50 PM2/6/12
to Patrick Finch, Iacopo Benesperi, mark...@lists.mozilla.org
fwiw, I just signed up for the mailing list, and am looking forward to following the discussions that take place there going forward :)

On Feb 6, 2012, at 7:04 AM, Patrick Finch wrote:

>
>
> On 2/6/2012 3:43 PM, Iacopo Benesperi wrote:
> So do I :)
>
> That was helpful, thanks. I didn't know all this.
>

Iacopo Benesperi

unread,
Feb 6, 2012, 3:39:06 PM2/6/12
to
Tara Shahian ha scritto:
> fwiw, I just signed up for the mailing list, and am looking forward to following the discussions that take place there going forward :)

Well, the discussion there was in mid December, we have to make it move
(or start) again.

Iacopo

Rubén Martín

unread,
Feb 6, 2012, 3:59:45 PM2/6/12
to mark...@lists.mozilla.org
Hi all,

I'm a bit late, but a agree 100% with all that Iacopo has said.

It's a bit frustrating to see this happening after all discussions,
specially with a word that has been historically a example of failing
when choosing a brand word. Also agree with Lucy about the communication
problem and the lack of transparency regarding this decision.

Regards.

Gervase Markham

unread,
Feb 7, 2012, 7:15:25 AM2/7/12
to Patrick Finch
On 06/02/12 10:16, Patrick Finch wrote:
>> PS: Could someone change this list behavior to "Reply to list" instead
>> of "Reply to sender"? I thought it was corrected long time ago.
>
> Mailman settings for Mozilla lists strong recommend that setting is
> reply to poster - although I will admit I don't understand why.

That surprises me. Can you point me at where this recommendation is
documented?

Thanks,

Gerv

Marcio Galli

unread,
Feb 7, 2012, 9:20:44 AM2/7/12
to mark...@lists.mozilla.org
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Iacopo Benesperi <moz...@iacchi.org>wrote:

>
> This story starts more or less two years ago (when Persona/Personas was
> first launched). After the launch, the Italian and the Spanish
> communities (Rubén correct me if I'm wrong) started complaining about
> this word, because for us is really a pain. There've been a lot of
> discussions about this in these two years, we've talked about it at
> every MozCamp or Mozilla Summit we've made. Heck, we've even made a
> meeting in Florence (the Italian community with Axel, Mary, Chris) to
> discuss about this and Persona was the main example.

The result of the discussion was an admission that Mozilla did wrong in
> the past and that l10n had to be considered from the beginning: the
> choice of a name.


Interesting. I was not involved in that discussion or anything related to
Personas but I recall that when the name was brought up I had a feeling it
was difficult for l10n folks.

However, immediately after the launch of Personas add-on I somehow assumed
it was a brand ( = product with universal name ) and that it was not to be
localizable. So, I wonder, aside from mistakes, failures, or chance: what
is the general understanding ( = outcome ) of Personas today from the name
perspective vs community.

And my question here, towards Persona ( stories indeed can repeat ) is a
request for us to separate all the possible discussions+directions and at
the same time put them in the same table. So, for example, include things
like the possibility of a direction where there is desire to not have
localizable terms.

M

Iacopo Benesperi

unread,
Feb 7, 2012, 9:35:40 AM2/7/12
to
Marcio Galli ha scritto:
> However, immediately after the launch of Personas add-on I somehow assumed
> it was a brand ( = product with universal name ) and that it was not to be
> localizable.

Indeed. I'd usually agree with you, but the problem is that Persona has
a meaning in Italian, as well as in Spanish (it means "person"), so we
couldn't leave it as is, because the misunderstanding was too big. We
rendered it like "Persona theme", adding the theme word each time.
But, in the general case, I agree with you: a brand name is not to be
translated.

bye,
Iacopo

Robert Kaiser

unread,
Feb 7, 2012, 3:07:44 PM2/7/12
to
Marcio Galli schrieb:
> However, immediately after the launch of Personas add-on I somehow assumed
> it was a brand ( = product with universal name ) and that it was not to be
> localizable. So, I wonder, aside from mistakes, failures, or chance: what
> is the general understanding ( = outcome ) of Personas today from the name
> perspective vs community.

The problem is that it's so near to other words that have a meaning,
like "person", that it's getting confused with them - and that hurts the
brand. ("I should install a person? What?" "Make Firefox more pretty
with a person? What does that mean?" etc. - and now "Log in with your
person? Erm, what?" "You can create different persons to sign in with?
Well, making children wasn't what I had in mind..." etc.)

In US English, you don't really have that problem because "persona"
already is an established word, but in other languages this is not the
case - actually, in some, "persona" might even be a legit form of the
word "person" and this sounds like bad grammar in addition to being
confusing.


Still, I feel like we are beating a dead horse here and that's not very
useful in the end.


Robert Kaiser

Brendan Eich

unread,
Feb 7, 2012, 3:50:13 PM2/7/12
to Patrick Finch, Rubén Martín, mark...@lists.mozilla.org
Patrick Finch wrote:
> Mailman settings for Mozilla lists strong recommend that setting is
> reply to poster - although I will admit I don't understand why.

Because accidents with that default don't blab private data to the list,
irrevocably. The other default may be more convenient but it has worse
"oops" factor.

/be

Patrick Finch

unread,
Feb 7, 2012, 3:55:08 PM2/7/12
to Brendan Eich, Rubén Martín, mark...@lists.mozilla.org
I can certainly relate to that. Leaving setting as reply-to poster. I
recommend adding "reply all" to your Thunderbird toolbar.

Patrick

Majken Connor

unread,
Feb 7, 2012, 8:05:03 PM2/7/12
to Patrick Finch, Brendan Eich, Rubén Martín, mark...@lists.mozilla.org
I don't use one Mozilla list where I ever mean to reply to someone
directly instead of continuing the conversation with the people
already involved. I know that this might not be true for everyone, but
I think reply to list fits better with Mozilla's way of doing things.

Reply to poster might make sense for certain lists, though I don't see
how it would make sense here.

Patrick Finch

unread,
Feb 8, 2012, 4:01:28 AM2/8/12
to Majken Connor, Brendan Eich, Rubén Martín, mark...@lists.mozilla.org


On 2/8/2012 2:05 AM, Majken Connor wrote:
> I don't use one Mozilla list where I ever mean to reply to someone
> directly instead of continuing the conversation with the people
> already involved. I know that this might not be true for everyone, but
> I think reply to list fits better with Mozilla's way of doing things.
>
> Reply to poster might make sense for certain lists, though I don't see
> how it would make sense here.

it isn't a recommendation for posting behaviour. It's just that
inadvertently replying to poster has far less capacity for unwanted
consequences than inadvertently replying to list.

I agree with your attitude on replying to list, but it should be done
consciously, is I think the desire.

Patrick

Gervase Markham

unread,
Feb 8, 2012, 10:18:55 AM2/8/12
to Mozilla Marketing Community List, Brendan Eich, Patrick Finch, Rubén Martín
On 07/02/12 20:50, Brendan Eich wrote:
> Because accidents with that default don't blab private data to the list,
> irrevocably. The other default may be more convenient but it has worse
> "oops" factor.

I disagree with Brendan's trade-off here :-) but now is not the time for
that debate. I would instead note that if you want reply-to-list
behaviour by default, then reading the groups as newsgroups gives you
that (along with handy segregation of messages and per-group unread
counts in your Thunderbird).

Gerv

Gervase Markham

unread,
Feb 8, 2012, 10:18:55 AM2/8/12
to Mozilla Marketing Community List, Brendan Eich, Rubén Martín, Patrick Finch
On 07/02/12 20:50, Brendan Eich wrote:
> Because accidents with that default don't blab private data to the list,
> irrevocably. The other default may be more convenient but it has worse
> "oops" factor.

Majken Connor

unread,
Feb 8, 2012, 12:55:02 PM2/8/12
to Patrick Finch, Brendan Eich, Rubén Martín, mark...@lists.mozilla.org
I totally agree, but i think that's mitigated by consistent behaviour.
All the new community lists and many team lists are set to reply to
list. yes the worst case scenario is worse, but I think it happens a
lot that people inadvertently take conversations off list. Certainly
on community lists like this one I think the risk of something being
unintentionally leaked is theoretical. Also just the psychology of it,
if you're discussing something private there is already a level of
awareness to make sure you're emailing only to the right person.

I mean ideally there'd be a way to set this personally in client
rather than on list. Maybe something for labs? ;)

On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 4:01 AM, Patrick Finch <pfi...@mozilla.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 2/8/2012 2:05 AM, Majken Connor wrote:
>>
>> I don't use one Mozilla list where I ever mean to reply to someone
>> directly instead of continuing the conversation with the people
>> already involved. I know that this might not be true for everyone, but
>> I think reply to list fits better with Mozilla's way of doing things.
>>
>> Reply to poster might make sense for certain lists, though I don't see
>> how it would make sense here.
>
>
> it isn't a recommendation for posting behaviour.  It's just that
> inadvertently replying to poster has far less capacity for unwanted
> consequences than inadvertently replying to list.
>
> I agree with your attitude on replying to list, but it should be done
> consciously, is I think the desire.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>> On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Patrick Finch<pfi...@mozilla.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/7/2012 9:50 PM, Brendan Eich wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Patrick Finch wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mailman settings for Mozilla lists strong recommend that setting is
>>>>> reply to poster - although I will admit I don't understand why.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Because accidents with that default don't blab private data to the list,
>>>> irrevocably. The other default may be more convenient but it has worse
>>>> "oops" factor.
>>>>

Majken Connor

unread,
Feb 8, 2012, 1:00:30 PM2/8/12
to Patrick Finch, Brendan Eich, Rubén Martín, mark...@lists.mozilla.org
>From Gerv,

I disagree with Brendan's trade-off here :-) but now is not the time
for that debate. I would instead note that if you want reply-to-list
behaviour by default, then reading the groups as newsgroups gives you
that (along with handy segregation of messages and per-group unread
counts in your Thunderbird).

Gerv

---

I use gmail and have filters that give me the segregation and unread
counts. Have to remember the community at large as well, it doesn't
make sense to install something just for a few lists. I haven't used
Thunderbird in ages because the spam filtering just doesn't do the
job.

Definitely a good tip though for people who already use Thunderbird.
Maybe there is something similar that can be set up in gmail?

Rubén Martín

unread,
Feb 8, 2012, 3:46:32 PM2/8/12
to Mozilla Marketing Community List
El 07/02/12 21:07, Robert Kaiser escribió:
> The problem is that it's so near to other words that have a meaning,
> like "person", that it's getting confused with them - and that hurts
> the brand. ("I should install a person? What?" "Make Firefox more
> pretty with a person? What does that mean?" etc. - and now "Log in
> with your person? Erm, what?" "You can create different persons to
> sign in with? Well, making children wasn't what I had in mind..." etc.)
Thanks for reminding again how terrible this decision would sound in
Spanish, Italian and other Latin-based languages ;)

If Identity is and it's going to be a key path for Mozilla, I think it's
worth thinking these kind of decisions twice or as many times as it's
necessary.

Dan Mills

unread,
Feb 9, 2012, 11:28:32 PM2/9/12
to Rubén Martín, Mozilla Marketing Community List
Hi all,

I was not on world-ready until yesterday, and was mostly unaware of the context. So thanks for writing that, and I'm really sorry that communication has been so poor. Actually, it seems that several people on our side (myself included) should have known better but didn't--we're trying to correct that now.

For the record, I am a native Spanish speaker, and though it's a little rusty now I used to speak Italian as well. So I get your POV pretty well, I think. We recognize that a brand name which is a common word can be more challenging, but it's certainly not impossible, and in this case I believe that it's actually a great brand name, even in Italian/Spanish.

But let me take a step back and describe the brand structure a little more. The top-level brand, as you've already heard, would be Mozilla Persona. But a more complete picture is:

Mozilla Persona: An identity system for the Web
-> Persona ID: Sign into websites. An implementation of the BrowserID protocol
-> Persona Wallet: A Web-scale payments system
-> Persona Home: "Home tab" for your identity on the Web
-> Persona Connect: Your data + developer-facing APIs to access your data/services

So e.g., you would use the Persona ID feature to sign into websites. Your "persona" is nothing short of your identity on the Web, everything you are. So whether interpreted as "role" in English or "person" in Italian or Spanish, I think it fits the meaning that we want to convey: who are you on the Web? who do you want to be? What is your web "person"?

Branding is hard, and it's difficult to imagine what it will be like in real use, specially after it becomes a Proper Noun. I'm sure that some people in the beginning might have thought that "installing Windows" meant to make holes in their walls, or that "buying a Mustang" was about getting a horse, but as those brands became better known that becomes less of a problem.

You're right, though, that there are some phrases that won't make sense in Spanish or Italian. We will need to keep that in mind when writing the English versions or when localizing. For example, we can talk about "Mozilla Persona" only when talking about the identity system as a whole, and more often we'll be talking about "Persona ID" (a feature of the system) which is easier to think of as a Proper Noun and so translates more easily IMO.

I will be in Barcelona at the end of the month for MWC, and would love to connect with you guys in person if at all possible. Let's chat off list?

Dan


On Wednesday, February 8, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Rubén Martín wrote:

> El 07/02/12 21:07, Robert Kaiser escribió:
> > The problem is that it's so near to other words that have a meaning,
> > like "person", that it's getting confused with them - and that hurts
> > the brand. ("I should install a person? What?" "Make Firefox more
> > pretty with a person? What does that mean?" etc. - and now "Log in
> > with your person? Erm, what?" "You can create different persons to
> > sign in with? Well, making children wasn't what I had in mind..." etc.)
> >
>
> Thanks for reminding again how terrible this decision would sound in
> Spanish, Italian and other Latin-based languages ;)
>
> If Identity is and it's going to be a key path for Mozilla, I think it's
> worth thinking these kind of decisions twice or as many times as it's
> necessary.
>
> Regards.
>
> --
> Rubén Martín [Nukeador]
> Mozilla Reps Council Member
> http://www.mozilla-hispano.org
> http://twitter.com/mozilla_hispano
> http://facebook.com/mozillahispano
>
> _______________________________________________
> Interested in promoting Mozilla? Check out the Mozilla Community Marketing Guide: http://contribute.mozilla.org/Marketing
> mark...@lists.mozilla.org (mailto:mark...@lists.mozilla.org)
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/marketing
>
>


Iacopo Benesperi

unread,
Feb 10, 2012, 3:02:40 AM2/10/12
to
Hi,
thanks for your reply, at least now we have a more clear picture of the
situation. Still, I think it will be a big problem making this work; in
Italian for sure but I think in Spanish, too.

If you've now subscribed the world-ready mailing list, have you looked
at its archives and read all the alternatives we proposed there (I can
give you a link if necessary)? They may not be the best options
(especially because until now we only knew about a rebranding of
BrowserID, not all the other stuff, so they're just ment for that), but
are you sure we can't start building something from one of those? Should
I make a recap of all the proposals?

Dan Mills ha scritto:
> You're right, though, that there are some phrases that won't make sense in Spanish or Italian. We will need to keep that in mind when writing the English versions or when localizing. For example, we can talk about "Mozilla Persona" only when talking about the identity system as a whole, and more often we'll be talking about "Persona ID" (a feature of the system) which is easier to think of as a Proper Noun and so translates more easily IMO.

Following your example, "Persona ID" would be localised in Italian
(unless you want to keep it as a brand name and so leave "Persona ID")
as "ID di Persona" o "Identità di Persona" if we'll want to remove the
English word "ID". Now, "ID di Persona" sounds a little weird but it's
still acceptable, but "Identità di Persona" is really ridicolous (it
reminds me of Adams' Marvin, with its "vera personalità di persona"; I
don't remember how it was in English, the literal translation is "True
person personality").

> I will be in Barcelona at the end of the month for MWC, and would love to connect with you guys in person if at all possible. Let's chat off list?

Well, I'm in Turin in those days. I can take a Ryanair flight and come,
but I think that asking a reimboursement just to discuss in person about
this would be too much. I'll leave this to the Spanish and Catalan
communities (I'll ping Toni for this), hoping that it will be easier for
them to come.

bye,
Iacopo

Dan Mills

unread,
Feb 10, 2012, 2:34:48 PM2/10/12
to Iacopo Benesperi, mark...@lists.mozilla.org
On Friday, February 10, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Iacopo Benesperi wrote:
> If you've now subscribed the world-ready mailing list, have you looked
> at its archives and read all the alternatives we proposed there (I can
> give you a link if necessary)?
>
>


I went through the archives yesterday. I think in general they sounded like fine technology names, but we're not really looking to rebrand the protocol name (that will stay BrowserID). We're looking for a more human-facing brand for identity in general, that can be made specific to the sign in use-case but also work for the other use-cases we want to work on next (like payments, etc).

Still, I will go back to the archives and make sure other folks here see them too.

> Following your example, "Persona ID" would be localised in Italian
> (unless you want to keep it as a brand name and so leave "Persona ID")
> as "ID di Persona" o "Identità di Persona" if we'll want to remove the
> English word "ID". Now, "ID di Persona" sounds a little weird but it's
> still acceptable, but "Identità di Persona" is really ridicolous (it
> reminds me of Adams' Marvin, with its "vera personalità di persona"; I
> don't remember how it was in English, the literal translation is "True
> person personality").
>
>


I agree that "Identità di Persona" sounds rather ridiculous. I'm curious, how would you say "look it up in Google Maps" ? "Cercalo in Google Mappe"? "…in Mappe di Google"? Just wondering if it would feel OK to keep it as a brand or not (Persona ID).

What about Login or similar? Would Persona Login be easier to think about?

I think we have some room to play here. The actual brand structure isn't set in stone.

> > I will be in Barcelona at the end of the month for MWC, and would love to connect with you guys in person if at all possible. Let's chat off list?
>
> Well, I'm in Turin in those days. I can take a Ryanair flight and come,
> but I think that asking a reimboursement just to discuss in person about
> this would be too much. I'll leave this to the Spanish and Catalan
> communities (I'll ping Toni for this), hoping that it will be easier for
> them to come.
>
>


I think it'd be worth it to have a beer if we can :) Whether I take Ryanair or you do. Let's start a thread off list though, I don't think marketing@ needs to know our exact travel details ;)

Dan

Iacopo Benesperi

unread,
Feb 18, 2012, 11:15:50 AM2/18/12
to
Sorry for the delay in answering. I'll try to make the discussion going
again in the world ready mailing list, too.

Dan Mills ha scritto:
> I agree that "Identità di Persona" sounds rather ridiculous. I'm curious, how would you say "look it up in Google Maps" ? "Cercalo in Google Mappe"? "…in Mappe di Google"? Just wondering if it would feel OK to keep it as a brand or not (Persona ID).

Yes, actually we say "Cercalo in Google Mappe" or "Cercalo in Google
Maps" or even "Cercalo con le mappe di Google" (maybe not exactly
"Cercalo con" as a beginning of the sentence, but we use "mappe di
Google", with a lowercase m meaning the common word mappe and not the
brand word).

> What about Login or similar? Would Persona Login be easier to think about?

Honestly, no. The problem is not the ID part, is the "... di Persona"
that come after that is ridicolous. But maybe some other Italian can
find a different, more decent solution, I don't know.

bye,
Iacopo

Rubén Martín

unread,
Feb 18, 2012, 1:28:50 PM2/18/12
to mark...@lists.mozilla.org
El 18/02/12 17:15, Iacopo Benesperi escribió:
>> What about Login or similar? Would Persona Login be easier to think about?
> Honestly, no. The problem is not the ID part, is the "... di Persona"
> that come after that is ridicolous. But maybe some other Italian can
> find a different, more decent solution, I don't know.
Also for Spanish (at least in Spain) the problem I see is mixing an
English word with a Spanish one, that sound bad because ti seems a
partial translation.

Persona ID, Persona Wallet, Persona Home and Persona Connect, do that.
The brands give a "cheap" and unprofessional feeling.

Translating the second word would be even worse, due it would be more
confusing for users.
signature.asc

Majken Connor

unread,
Feb 18, 2012, 10:49:42 PM2/18/12
to Rubén Martín, mark...@lists.mozilla.org
This wikipedia article explains where persona comes from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona does that help at all? do you have a
different word for the same usage?

2012/2/18 Rubén Martín <nuke...@mozilla-hispano.org>

> El 18/02/12 17:15, Iacopo Benesperi escribió:
> >> What about Login or similar? Would Persona Login be easier to think
> about?
> > Honestly, no. The problem is not the ID part, is the "... di Persona"
> > that come after that is ridicolous. But maybe some other Italian can
> > find a different, more decent solution, I don't know.
> Also for Spanish (at least in Spain) the problem I see is mixing an
> English word with a Spanish one, that sound bad because ti seems a
> partial translation.
>
> Persona ID, Persona Wallet, Persona Home and Persona Connect, do that.
> The brands give a "cheap" and unprofessional feeling.
>
> Translating the second word would be even worse, due it would be more
> confusing for users.
>
> Regards.
>
> --
> Rubén Martín [Nukeador]
> Mozilla Reps Council Member
> http://www.mozilla-hispano.org
> http://twitter.com/mozilla_hispano
> http://facebook.com/mozillahispano
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Interested in promoting Mozilla? Check out the Mozilla Community Marketing
> Guide: http://contribute.mozilla.org/Marketing
> mark...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/marketing
>
>

Iacopo Benesperi

unread,
Feb 19, 2012, 4:55:45 AM2/19/12
to
Majken Connor ha scritto:
> This wikipedia article explains where persona comes from
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona does that help at all? do you have a
> different word for the same usage?

Whoa! No, we don't have a word for that. Not that I know of, anyway
(well, we actually have it, we use the equivalent of "mask" for that).

Anyway, I've tried to write to the world ready mailing list, but I'm
having problems with Mozilla's MailMan these days; it looks like if I
try to send a message longer than a few lines, it doesn't let me.

bye,
Iacopo

Gen Kanai

unread,
Feb 20, 2012, 2:38:13 AM2/20/12
to mark...@lists.mozilla.org
Iacopo,

Please file a bug- if there's something wrong with world-ready (I am on
it too and haven't seen any emails in a while) we need to fix that.

Gen


On 2/19/12 6:55 PM, Iacopo Benesperi wrote:
> I'm
> having problems with Mozilla's MailMan these days; it looks like if I
> try to send a message longer than a few lines, it doesn't let me.

--
Gen Kanai

Iacopo Benesperi

unread,
Feb 20, 2012, 6:33:47 AM2/20/12
to
Gen Kanai ha scritto:
> Please file a bug- if there's something wrong with world-ready (I am on
> it too and haven't seen any emails in a while) we need to fix that.

Filed it, I hope I got it right:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=728832

Iacopo

inma.b...@mozilla-hispano.org

unread,
Feb 20, 2012, 3:35:41 PM2/20/12
to
Hi!

Well, I think the title of the thread is quite self-explanatory and the emails only give more details about the reasons why we oppose that decision.

Basically we think it is a wrong decision because "persona" means different things in different languages. In neither Italian nor Spanish "persona(s)" has that nuance of "image" or "character", as many Mozilla fellows mentioned above.

So, we are facing here an internationalization issue, because we are trying to implement a brand name concept that will convey a totally different meaning for millions of users worldwide. And not only that, the word also will sound a bit foolish to them, which is the last thing a brand name should sound like!

I think that fact should be considered, as well as all the well-grounded opinions provided by the empowered members of the Mozilla community-driven l10n teams.

Best,

--
Inma Barrios [@inma_610]

http://mozilla-hispano.org
http://twitter.com/mozilla_hispano
http://facebook.com/mozillahispano


Percy Cabello

unread,
Feb 20, 2012, 10:11:27 PM2/20/12
to inma.b...@mozilla-hispano.org, mark...@lists.mozilla.org
Another Spanish speaker here (Peru).

Even before considering the internationalization issues, there is the
matter of explaining users the thing they knew as Persona is no longer
that (although I am in favor of renaming it, skins got my vote but
that's another story), but some other entirely different thing. So, +1
for the thread topic!

Perhaps there are cold numbers on Persona not being a established
brand even withing Firefox users that suggest that we can do this
safely?

If that's not a problem:
persona in Spanish= person (in English)
persona in English = personaje (in Spanish)

I just checked the Real Academia de la Lengua dictionary (the main
language reference for all Spanish speakers), and the fifth definition
for "persona" is *similar* to "character" in English:
http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?LEMA=persona&SUPIND=0&CAREXT=10000&NEDIC=No
Note that while it is a formal definition, I bet a very small
percentage of Spanish speakers would identify "character" as a
definition of "persona".

But even if "persona" could be defined as "character" in Spanish, we
are still not there. According to the Oxford dictionary
(http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/persona?q=persona),
"persona" means "aspect of someone’s character that is presented to or
perceived by others". I understand the key here is "perceived by
others". This is just not present in Spanish.

So, "persona" has a strong well defined meaning in Spanish and is
nowhere close to what we are trying to communicate with "persona" in
English. Plus, using the same brand for a different features in the
same product would be confusing in any language.

Were there runner ups before deciding to reuse Persona? Maybe one of
those would help?
Percy

Dan Mills

unread,
Feb 21, 2012, 1:38:46 AM2/21/12
to Percy Cabello, inma.b...@mozilla-hispano.org, mark...@lists.mozilla.org
Hi all,

It seems we are talking in circles here a bit, and we're getting super close to publicly announcing the name change, so my apologies if I come off a bit blunt:

I think the concerns in this thread are enough to warrant a careful approach to how we use the brand in Spanish & Italian (maybe others), but not enough to throw all our work away worldwide. For that reason, and due to Mobile World Congress being next week, we'll be blogging tomorrow on the identity blog about the overall name of the identity product changing to Mozilla Persona.

We won't actually be rolling out the new name in products, however, until later. And I do want to work with you on how we do that--I think there's a lot we could do in fine-tuning the brand & how we use it to make it mean what we want it to mean in all locales.

For example, this sentence reads basically fine to me: "Mozilla Persona es un nuevo sistema de identidad cuyo primer componente es Persona ID, un método fácil y seguro para identificarte en la Web con tu dirección de correo electrónico." Maybe Persona ID works better as Persona sign-in, which gets localized, I don't know. But the overall brand I think is solid--in fact, I think "Persona" is a great name for an identity product in Spanish!

I think there was a process bug, and we should've all been working more closely from the start. I'm not advocating for brand design by committee (that would never work), but there certainly wasn't a dialogue, and there should have been. Let's concentrate on how to fix that, I have some ideas to start.

Dan
(short for "Daniel"--se que no lo parezco, pero de verdad que hablo Castellano. O por lo menos, todavía no se me ha olvidado por completo ;)
> > _______________________________________________
> > Interested in promoting Mozilla? Check out the Mozilla Community Marketing Guide: http://contribute.mozilla.org/Marketing
> > mark...@lists.mozilla.org (mailto:mark...@lists.mozilla.org)
> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/marketing
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Interested in promoting Mozilla? Check out the Mozilla Community Marketing Guide: http://contribute.mozilla.org/Marketing
> mark...@lists.mozilla.org (mailto:mark...@lists.mozilla.org)
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/marketing
>
>


Nukeador

unread,
Feb 21, 2012, 4:28:48 AM2/21/12
to mark...@lists.mozilla.org
Hi,

As I said on world-ready mailing list:

So, if definitely is going to be Mozilla Persona and it's going to be
presented on the MWC in Barcelona (Spain), we should think (and quickly) on
how to speak about it in Spanish.

I still think this is a very wrong choice and that it's going to be a
problem for Spanish and Italian :S

Speaking in marketing terms, according to internetworldstats.com, there are
164M internet user who speak Spanish (sorry I don't have data for Italian),
that is nearly the 8% of the Internet. Let say the 25% are Firefox users,
we are speaking about 41 million users.

Regards.
--
Rubén Martín (Nukeador)
Mozilla Reps Council member

Daniel Yucra

unread,
Feb 21, 2012, 8:27:04 AM2/21/12
to Dan Mills, mark...@lists.mozilla.org
EN
>From my point of view does not use the word "person" in Spanish for at
least some kind of marketing. I'm from Peru (speak, write and read Spanish).

No word marketing is at least in Spanish. suggest better words

a greeting from Lima Peru


ES
Desde mi punto de vista no usen la palabra "persona" al menos en español
para algun tipo de marketing. Soy de Peru (habla, escribe y lee español).

No es palabra de marketing al menos en español. sugiero mejores palabras


un saludo desde Lima Perú

2012/2/21 Dan Mills <thu...@mozilla.com>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Interested in promoting Mozilla? Check out the Mozilla Community
> Marketing Guide: http://contribute.mozilla.org/Marketing
> > > mark...@lists.mozilla.org (mailto:mark...@lists.mozilla.org)
> > > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/marketing
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Interested in promoting Mozilla? Check out the Mozilla Community
> Marketing Guide: http://contribute.mozilla.org/Marketing
> > mark...@lists.mozilla.org (mailto:mark...@lists.mozilla.org)
> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/marketing
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Interested in promoting Mozilla? Check out the Mozilla Community Marketing
> Guide: http://contribute.mozilla.org/Marketing
> mark...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/marketing
>



--
Daniel Yucra
http://danielyucra.somoslibres.org
"No critiquen al "artista", sino su obra"
"Si fuéramos iguales, sería aburrido ..."
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