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Tablet vs. Touch: decision
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Gervase Markham
Dec 18, 2012, 11:03:14 AM12/18/12
to Johnathan Nightingale, Lukas Blakk, Asa Dotzler
Hi everyone,
After taking all input into account, I have decided that we should drop
the "Tablet" token from Fennec's UA on tablets. This is what Android
browser and Chrome do, and corresponds to option D) of my original
options. So for non-"Mobile" devices, it would be:
Mozilla/5.0 (Android; rv:12.0) Gecko/12.0 Firefox/12.0
We should be aware that we _may_ in the future need to add "Touch" on
Windows 8 Metro only, if developers start detecting it in large numbers
and consequently sites start breaking. We should write up on MDN and
publicise a document of best practices in detecting and using touch
events cross-browser, to try and make that less likely.
It's relevant to note that, according to recent ADI data, Tablet users
make up about 25% of Fennec installs, for a total of about 388,000 ADIs,
so perhaps a million users. (Thanks to Anurag Phadke on the Metrics team
for getting the data for me here.)
To elaborate on some points people may ask about:
- We would therefore use "Mobile" on devices where we thought a mobile
experience should be the default, and the desktop UA where we think a
desktop experience should be the default. At the moment, opinion seems
to be that phones are "Mobile" and tablets from 7" up are not, but we
have the flexibility to change that view later.
- Given the short time this token has been in use, and the small number
of Tablet Fennec users (relative to e.g. desktop), we don't expect
significant compatibility problems. The speed we deploy this change is a
trade-off between "minimising the number of browsers with the old UA"
and "making sure we can detect any compatibility problems". So therefore
the exact timing and train schedule of deployment of the change would be
a matter for the release-drivers.
- For the above reasons (short time, relatively small number of users),
I am not too concerned that large numbers of web developers are going to
have been detecting our "Tablet" string, or that this will lead to
frustration at our "ever-changing" UA.
- This decision is going to be widely publicised so that any necessary
sirens can be set off, to make sure everyone who might be affected is aware.
Lastly, I'd like to apologise for putting "Tablet" in in the first
place. That was my call, and it was a mistake.
Gerv
After taking all input into account, I have decided that we should drop
the "Tablet" token from Fennec's UA on tablets. This is what Android
browser and Chrome do, and corresponds to option D) of my original
options. So for non-"Mobile" devices, it would be:
Mozilla/5.0 (Android; rv:12.0) Gecko/12.0 Firefox/12.0
We should be aware that we _may_ in the future need to add "Touch" on
Windows 8 Metro only, if developers start detecting it in large numbers
and consequently sites start breaking. We should write up on MDN and
publicise a document of best practices in detecting and using touch
events cross-browser, to try and make that less likely.
It's relevant to note that, according to recent ADI data, Tablet users
make up about 25% of Fennec installs, for a total of about 388,000 ADIs,
so perhaps a million users. (Thanks to Anurag Phadke on the Metrics team
for getting the data for me here.)
To elaborate on some points people may ask about:
- We would therefore use "Mobile" on devices where we thought a mobile
experience should be the default, and the desktop UA where we think a
desktop experience should be the default. At the moment, opinion seems
to be that phones are "Mobile" and tablets from 7" up are not, but we
have the flexibility to change that view later.
- Given the short time this token has been in use, and the small number
of Tablet Fennec users (relative to e.g. desktop), we don't expect
significant compatibility problems. The speed we deploy this change is a
trade-off between "minimising the number of browsers with the old UA"
and "making sure we can detect any compatibility problems". So therefore
the exact timing and train schedule of deployment of the change would be
a matter for the release-drivers.
- For the above reasons (short time, relatively small number of users),
I am not too concerned that large numbers of web developers are going to
have been detecting our "Tablet" string, or that this will lead to
frustration at our "ever-changing" UA.
- This decision is going to be widely publicised so that any necessary
sirens can be set off, to make sure everyone who might be affected is aware.
Lastly, I'd like to apologise for putting "Tablet" in in the first
place. That was my call, and it was a mistake.
Gerv
Alex Keybl
Dec 18, 2012, 1:51:50 PM12/18/12
to dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org, Lukas Blakk, Asa Dotzler, Johnathan Nightingale
> - For the above reasons (short time, relatively small number of users), I am not too concerned that large numbers of web developers are going to have been detecting our "Tablet" string, or that this will lead to frustration at our "ever-changing" UA.
Agreed that major fallout is unlikely - do we have a list of the most heavily used mobile tablet sites to verify that this change will not cause severe web regressions though?
> - This decision is going to be widely publicised so that any necessary sirens can be set off, to make sure everyone who might be affected is aware.
-Alex
> dev-platform mailing list
> dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
Gervase Markham
Dec 19, 2012, 5:21:38 AM12/19/12
to Alex Keybl, Lukas Blakk, Asa Dotzler, Johnathan Nightingale
On 18/12/12 18:51, Alex Keybl wrote:
> Agreed that major fallout is unlikely - do we have a list of the most
> heavily used mobile tablet sites to verify that this change will not
> cause severe web regressions though?
I will consult the wonderful Mr. Mandel.
> Agreed that major fallout is unlikely - do we have a list of the most
> heavily used mobile tablet sites to verify that this change will not
> cause severe web regressions though?
>> - This decision is going to be widely publicised so that any
>> necessary sirens can be set off, to make sure everyone who might be
>> affected is aware.
>
> When do you expect to have a final comms plan (blog posts and
> necessary TE)? Thanks!
Gerv
Gervase Markham
Dec 20, 2012, 8:41:01 AM12/20/12
to Alex Keybl, Lukas Blakk, Asa Dotzler, Johnathan Nightingale
On 19/12/12 10:21, Gervase Markham wrote:
> On 18/12/12 18:51, Alex Keybl wrote:
>> Agreed that major fallout is unlikely - do we have a list of the most
>> heavily used mobile tablet sites to verify that this change will not
>> cause severe web regressions though?
>
> I will consult the wonderful Mr. Mandel.
It appears that no-one has tablet-specific data. We will have to make do
> On 18/12/12 18:51, Alex Keybl wrote:
>> Agreed that major fallout is unlikely - do we have a list of the most
>> heavily used mobile tablet sites to verify that this change will not
>> cause severe web regressions though?
>
> I will consult the wonderful Mr. Mandel.
with mobile-specific data. :-|
>> When do you expect to have a final comms plan (blog posts and
>> necessary TE)? Thanks!
>
> It might be in the New Year now, but hopefully sooner.
0) We make sure that everyone who needs to know about the change knows
that it's in the pipeline, even if we can't give a final ship date.
That's the product owner of Fennec, the Toolkit module owner, and
Fennec release-drivers.
1) We make a patch and check it in to Nightly, and uplift to Aurora.
Rationale: attempt to reduce the number of browser versions out
there with this change. Rather than 6 weeks on Nightly and 6 on
Aurora, better to skip straight to Aurora for wider coverage and
stay there longer if necessary.
2) We ask the Mobile testing team to be on particular lookout for site
regressions in Aurora, and use Phony to try and test whether it's a
UA issue.
3) Every time a significant problem is reported, the change is put on
hold and does not advance until we deal with it.
4) Once the change moves to Beta, we set off the sirens again, making
blog posts, warning product owners, release drivers etc. and make
sure everyone is still OK with it. That gives 6 weeks of warning.
If this doesn't work, please supply improvements :-)
Gerv
JP Rosevear
Jan 7, 2013, 1:48:07 PM1/7/13
to dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org, Lukas Blakk, Asa Dotzler, Johnathan Nightingale
On Tue, 2012-12-18 at 16:03 +0000, Gervase Markham wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> After taking all input into account, I have decided that we should drop
> the "Tablet" token from Fennec's UA on tablets. This is what Android
> browser and Chrome do, and corresponds to option D) of my original
> options. So for non-"Mobile" devices, it would be:
>
> Mozilla/5.0 (Android; rv:12.0) Gecko/12.0 Firefox/12.0
>
> We should be aware that we _may_ in the future need to add "Touch" on
> Windows 8 Metro only, if developers start detecting it in large numbers
> and consequently sites start breaking. We should write up on MDN and
> publicise a document of best practices in detecting and using touch
> events cross-browser, to try and make that less likely.
>
> It's relevant to note that, according to recent ADI data, Tablet users
> make up about 25% of Fennec installs, for a total of about 388,000 ADIs,
> so perhaps a million users. (Thanks to Anurag Phadke on the Metrics team
> for getting the data for me here.)
>
> To elaborate on some points people may ask about:
>
> - We would therefore use "Mobile" on devices where we thought a mobile
> experience should be the default, and the desktop UA where we think a
> desktop experience should be the default. At the moment, opinion seems
> to be that phones are "Mobile" and tablets from 7" up are not, but we
> have the flexibility to change that view later.
How? By switch more devices to the "Mobile" variant?
> Hi everyone,
>
> After taking all input into account, I have decided that we should drop
> the "Tablet" token from Fennec's UA on tablets. This is what Android
> browser and Chrome do, and corresponds to option D) of my original
> options. So for non-"Mobile" devices, it would be:
>
> Mozilla/5.0 (Android; rv:12.0) Gecko/12.0 Firefox/12.0
>
> We should be aware that we _may_ in the future need to add "Touch" on
> Windows 8 Metro only, if developers start detecting it in large numbers
> and consequently sites start breaking. We should write up on MDN and
> publicise a document of best practices in detecting and using touch
> events cross-browser, to try and make that less likely.
>
> It's relevant to note that, according to recent ADI data, Tablet users
> make up about 25% of Fennec installs, for a total of about 388,000 ADIs,
> so perhaps a million users. (Thanks to Anurag Phadke on the Metrics team
> for getting the data for me here.)
>
> To elaborate on some points people may ask about:
>
> - We would therefore use "Mobile" on devices where we thought a mobile
> experience should be the default, and the desktop UA where we think a
> desktop experience should be the default. At the moment, opinion seems
> to be that phones are "Mobile" and tablets from 7" up are not, but we
> have the flexibility to change that view later.
> - Given the short time this token has been in use, and the small number
> of Tablet Fennec users (relative to e.g. desktop), we don't expect
> significant compatibility problems. The speed we deploy this change is a
> trade-off between "minimising the number of browsers with the old UA"
> and "making sure we can detect any compatibility problems". So therefore
> the exact timing and train schedule of deployment of the change would be
> a matter for the release-drivers.
> - For the above reasons (short time, relatively small number of users),
> I am not too concerned that large numbers of web developers are going to
> have been detecting our "Tablet" string, or that this will lead to
> frustration at our "ever-changing" UA.
are switching to the "desktop" UA. But I come from the camp that UA
changes should be for a deeply clear benefit, simply "it won't harm
much" is not an argument for change in a property where changing it
*never* again is the ideal.
Thanks,
-JP
Johnathan Nightingale
Jan 9, 2013, 11:54:15 AM1/9/13
to JP Rosevear, Gervase Markham, Lukas Blakk, Asa Dotzler, dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
On Jan 7, 2013, at 1:48 PM, JP Rosevear wrote:
> On Tue, 2012-12-18 at 16:03 +0000, Gervase Markham wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> After taking all input into account, I have decided that we should drop
>> the "Tablet" token from Fennec's UA on tablets. This is what Android
>> browser and Chrome do, and corresponds to option D) of my original
>> options. So for non-"Mobile" devices, it would be:
>>
>> Mozilla/5.0 (Android; rv:12.0) Gecko/12.0 Firefox/12.0
>> ...
>>
>> After taking all input into account, I have decided that we should drop
>> the "Tablet" token from Fennec's UA on tablets. This is what Android
>> browser and Chrome do, and corresponds to option D) of my original
>> options. So for non-"Mobile" devices, it would be:
>>
>> Mozilla/5.0 (Android; rv:12.0) Gecko/12.0 Firefox/12.0
>
> If I understand what you are proposing I think its reasonable given we
> are switching to the "desktop" UA. But I come from the camp that UA
> changes should be for a deeply clear benefit, simply "it won't harm
> much" is not an argument for change in a property where changing it
> *never* again is the ideal.
Yeah, I think what's missing in the current proposal is a clear statement of benefit. I agree that the downside seems small with this one.
> If I understand what you are proposing I think its reasonable given we
> are switching to the "desktop" UA. But I come from the camp that UA
> changes should be for a deeply clear benefit, simply "it won't harm
> much" is not an argument for change in a property where changing it
> *never* again is the ideal.
J
---
Johnathan Nightingale
VP Firefox Engineering
@johnath
Gervase Markham
Jan 11, 2013, 8:57:25 AM1/11/13
to JP Rosevear, Johnathan Nightingale
On 07/01/13 18:48, JP Rosevear wrote:
> If I understand what you are proposing I think its reasonable given we
> are switching to the "desktop" UA. But I come from the camp that UA
> changes should be for a deeply clear benefit, simply "it won't harm
> much" is not an argument for change in a property where changing it
> *never* again is the ideal.
Johnath asked for a clear statement of benefit. I guess that would be:
> If I understand what you are proposing I think its reasonable given we
> are switching to the "desktop" UA. But I come from the camp that UA
> changes should be for a deeply clear benefit, simply "it won't harm
> much" is not an argument for change in a property where changing it
> *never* again is the ideal.
Keeping the UA as similar as possible across platforms removes the
possibility of some Firefoxes being excluded by foot-shooting
developers. The change under consideration removes a
relatively-recently-added tag on the Tablet Firefox only, reverting it
to be the same as Desktop Firefox. This makes it more likely that
neither one nor the other will be excluded from sites by bad sniffing.
Gerv
Henri Sivonen
Jan 23, 2013, 5:33:59 AM1/23/13
to dev-pl...@lists.mozilla.org
On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Gervase Markham <ge...@mozilla.org> wrote:
> Keeping the UA as similar as possible across platforms removes the
> possibility of some Firefoxes being excluded by foot-shooting
> developers. The change under consideration removes a
> relatively-recently-added tag on the Tablet Firefox only, reverting it
> to be the same as Desktop Firefox. This makes it more likely that
> neither one nor the other will be excluded from sites by bad sniffing.
(I'd except foot shooting to involve the Android token more likely
> Keeping the UA as similar as possible across platforms removes the
> possibility of some Firefoxes being excluded by foot-shooting
> developers. The change under consideration removes a
> relatively-recently-added tag on the Tablet Firefox only, reverting it
> to be the same as Desktop Firefox. This makes it more likely that
> neither one nor the other will be excluded from sites by bad sniffing.
than the Tablet token. It's not really the "same" as desktop when it
says "Android" and "arm".)
Anyway, it seems
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Gecko_user_agent_string_reference
isn't getting updated together with the code changes, which probably
makes evangelism even harder than it would otherwise be. :-(
Aside: According to https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/945629
, Marketplace uses a Desktop/Mobile/Tablet taxonomy. Will that change,
too?
--
Henri Sivonen
hsiv...@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
Gervase Markham
Jan 24, 2013, 10:40:33 AM1/24/13
to
On 23/01/13 10:33, Henri Sivonen wrote:
> Anyway, it seems
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Gecko_user_agent_string_reference
> isn't getting updated together with the code changes, which probably
> makes evangelism even harder than it would otherwise be. :-(
Fixed - sorry about that.
> Anyway, it seems
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Gecko_user_agent_string_reference
> isn't getting updated together with the code changes, which probably
> makes evangelism even harder than it would otherwise be. :-(
> Aside: According to https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/945629
> , Marketplace uses a Desktop/Mobile/Tablet taxonomy. Will that change,
> too?
Gerv
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