Places and Firefox 2
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1.  Michael Schroepfer  
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(7 users)  More options Apr 24 2006, 1:00 am
Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.planning
From: Michael Schroepfer <sch...@mozilla.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:00:08 -0700
Local: Mon, Apr 24 2006 1:00 am
Subject: Places and Firefox 2
As we have been preparing for the FF2 Alpha2 on May 9 it has become
increasingly clear that we do not have time to complete an
implementation of places that lives up to our standards of user
experience and quality.   Places is a complex and exciting feature which
changes the way people use bookmarks, history, and navigate through
their private space of the web.   Rather than rush it to market - we'd
prefer to spend the time it takes to get it right.

Thus, we are going to disable Places on the 1.8 branch and continue work
on the feature on the trunk for inclusion on a future release.   This is
a difficult decision - but doing it this early in the release cycle
gives us the time to focus on delivering an extremely high quality FF2
in Q3 and gives Places the room it needs to develop into a truly
innovative feature.

To be clear - we're still focused on delivering Places as a truly
compelling end user feature in a future release.  We're also confident
that the other features and enhancements slated for FF2 will provide a
great upgrade for 1.5 users and continue to be a compelling browser
choice for new users.  Firefox 2 will improve security, tabbed browsing,
search, RSS/structured content discovery, performance, and extension
support.  In order words, all the reasons people love Firefox will get
demonstrably better in this release.

At the Bon Echo meeting Tuesday at 11am we'll do a more in-depth review
of status of every feature area to figure out what else is at risk and
make sure we have all available effort focused on the critical areas.
So come prepared to talk about your feature area and plan for a longer
meeting than normal.

Cheers,

Schrep


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2.  Matt Nordhoff  
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(5 users)  More options Apr 24 2006, 4:27 am
Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.planning
From: Matt Nordhoff <mnordh...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 04:27:16 -0400
Local: Mon, Apr 24 2006 4:27 am
Subject: Re: Places and Firefox 2
On 04/24/06 01:00, Michael Schroepfer wrote:

Without Places, Firefox 2.0 will have nothing new. Security
improvements, making the tabbed browsing UI worse ( :-P ), the search
XML backend and manager thingy, improved feed discovery, performance and
extension support... That's nothing. Even Places isn't very much, if
you're only thinking about the frontend as most users will. Users are
going to be extremely disappointed when they see nothing new or interesting.

mozilla.feedback has "I don't see any big differences" repeated
frequently over 2.0a1, and it had Places. From your post, Firefox 2.0
sounds like it should be called Firefox 1.6.
--
Matt Nordhoff
(aka Peng on IRC & the forums)


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3.  Matt Nordhoff  
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(1 user)  More options Apr 24 2006, 4:57 am
Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.planning
From: Matt Nordhoff <mnordh...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 04:57:54 -0400
Local: Mon, Apr 24 2006 4:57 am
Subject: Re: Places and Firefox 2
On 04/24/06 04:27, Matt Nordhoff wrote:

> Without Places, Firefox 2.0 will have nothing new. Security
> improvements, making the tabbed browsing UI worse ( :-P ), the search
> XML backend and manager thingy, improved feed discovery, performance and
> extension support... That's nothing. Even Places isn't very much, if
> you're only thinking about the frontend as most users will. Users are
> going to be extremely disappointed when they see nothing new or
> interesting.

> mozilla.feedback has "I don't see any big differences" repeated
> frequently over 2.0a1, and it had Places. From your post, Firefox 2.0
> sounds like it should be called Firefox 1.6.

Wait, are session restore and the in-line spell checking still going to
be in 2.0?

If they are, I'll be okay with 1.7, but still not 2.0. They aren't an
immediate "Wow!" when you open the browser.

(And yes, I know I'm being harsh, and even small improvements are a good
thing and can take a good amount of work, but Firefox 2.0 just doesn't
seem like a 2.0.)
--
Matt Nordhoff
(aka Peng on IRC & the forums)


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4.  Matt Nordhoff  
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(2 users)  More options Apr 24 2006, 10:35 am
Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.planning
From: Matt Nordhoff <mnordh...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:35:07 -0400
Local: Mon, Apr 24 2006 10:35 am
Subject: Re: Places and Firefox 2
On 04/24/06 04:57, Matt Nordhoff wrote:

> Wait, are session restore and the in-line spell checking still going to
> be in 2.0?

> If they are, I'll be okay with 1.7, but still not 2.0. They aren't an
> immediate "Wow!" when you open the browser.

> (And yes, I know I'm being harsh, and even small improvements are a good
> thing and can take a good amount of work, but Firefox 2.0 just doesn't
> seem like a 2.0.)

Okay, I retract my nastiness, but I still think that without Places,
Firefox 2.0 is somewhat disappointing. But then, most of the other
things don't really matter to me. Well, security and performance and
extension support do, but I don't have problems with them (except the
slowness of my huge amounts of bookmarks and history).

The session restore feature, I already use Session Manager and will
continue to, because the extension can be updated without the review
process and I can easily get those updates without having to download a
new build of Firefox.

The search stuff is nice, too. Using the XML format reduces the number
of files I have in searchplugins by half, and the format looks nicer
than the old one. (And importing them will make all the indentation and
stuff identical in each one. :-) )

And Places, well, at least it will be interesting. I'm back down to the
mozilla1.8.0 branch because I want to avoid it until it's fully working
and I've sorted out my duplicate bookmarks because Places'll screw 'em
up, but once I do that and have an hour or two where I can live without
being able to use Firefox while everything is imported, I'm game.

Meh. Whatever. I'm rambling more, but at least I'm being nicer. ;-)
Firefox 2.0 isn't seeming incredibly interesting, though.
--
Matt Nordhoff
(aka Peng on IRC & the forums)


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5.  steve.england@gmail.com  
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(4 users)  More options Apr 24 2006, 12:36 pm
Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.planning
From: "steve.engl...@gmail.com" <steve.engl...@gmail.com>
Date: 24 Apr 2006 09:36:38 -0700
Local: Mon, Apr 24 2006 12:36 pm
Subject: Re: Places and Firefox 2
Yeah I'm all for this. Places has loads of potential that i'm sure will
get realised, but atm there's too many bugs filed against it in order
to give end users a highly polished experience for 2.0.

2.0 will still have a bunch of improvements, including:
    * Visual Refresh
    * Safebrowser anti-phising
    * Inline spellcheck
    * Session Management
    * RSS handling improvements
    * Extension/Themes UI change
    * New search engine infrastructure and UI
    * New installer
    * Browser performance metric measurer
which is quite a few, and most of them something the end-user will be
able to see with their own eyes. Some ppl might say this isn't enough
to be worth calling it a 2.0 release, but for me it is, and a 2.0
release doesn't have to be a much-trumpeted affair.


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6.  schiller  
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(1 user)  More options Apr 24 2006, 1:49 pm
Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.planning
From: "schiller" <codedr...@gmail.com>
Date: 24 Apr 2006 10:49:22 -0700
Local: Mon, Apr 24 2006 1:49 pm
Subject: Re: Places and Firefox 2

steve.engl...@gmail.com wrote:
> a 2.0 release doesn't have to be a much-trumpeted affair.

What if you want to stack your browser advances up against the other
next-generation browsers soon to be released:  IE7 and Opera9?

I don't know, going up a rev number is usually a big deal.  I guess if
you put all total advances from 1.0 -> 2.0 it is a big deal.  So now I
see why edging the release number from 1.1 to 1.5 last year was a wise
choice, because the step to 2.0 is not exactly earth-shattering.  Only
problem is, it's been so long since I used Firefox 1.0 that I kind of
forget the advances that Firefox 1.5 brought.

Anyway, it's not like people are not going to upgrade (especially with
the auto-upgrade functionality in 1.5)... there will just be less of a
fuss in the blogosphere (and prepare yourselves for a few
"disappointed" reviews).  Heck, Firefox 1.5 still beats IE7, from what
I've heard...

Hey, maybe they can get those recently checked-in SVG performance
improvements into 2.0...;)


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7.  Brad Fults  
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(1 user)  More options Apr 25 2006, 1:27 pm
Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.planning
From: "Brad Fults" <bfu...@gmail.com>
Date: 25 Apr 2006 10:27:48 -0700
Local: Tues, Apr 25 2006 1:27 pm
Subject: Re: Places and Firefox 2
100% agreed without reservation.

This will be one of the most underwhelming 2.0 releases in recent
software history from a consumer's point of view.

I would much rather wait another 6 months or a year for a worthy 2.0
than see 1.6 shipped as "2.0" when it introduces no new large features
at all. This is the old religious argument about version numbers, but
most software vendors (and I) agree that a major version increment
means *at least* large new features, if not huge changes that break
backwards compatibility (e.g. 1.9 trunk).


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8.  schiller  
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 More options Apr 25 2006, 1:53 pm
Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.planning
From: "schiller" <codedr...@gmail.com>
Date: 25 Apr 2006 10:53:12 -0700
Local: Tues, Apr 25 2006 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: Places and Firefox 2

Brad Fults wrote:
> This will be one of the most underwhelming 2.0 releases in recent
> software history from a consumer's point of view.

> I would much rather wait another 6 months or a year for a worthy 2.0
> than see 1.6 shipped as "2.0" when it introduces no new large features

The problem with this is the pain that will exist in having three
separate load lines, 1.8, 1.8.1 and the trunk.  A 6-month delay in 2.0
would question why do the 1.8.1 branch at all, just release the trunk
when it's ready next year...

No, after thinking about it my vote is for sticking to the plan and
releasing something of high quality this year.  A high quality visual
refresh will go along way with some people.  Changes to feed and theme
management will also be something to talk about.

Anyway, the sooner developers focus on the trunk, the better.


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9.  Doron Rosenberg  
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(2 users)  More options Apr 24 2006, 3:49 pm
Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.planning
From: Doron Rosenberg <dor...@us.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:49:06 -0500
Local: Mon, Apr 24 2006 3:49 pm
Subject: Re: Places and Firefox 2
Will Firefox 2 ship the mozstorage (sqllite) engine then?  It might be
worth it for extension authors to have it, even if the main product
doesn't use it.

Doron


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10.  Vladimir Vukicevic  
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(1 user)  More options Apr 24 2006, 4:03 pm
Newsgroups: mozilla.dev.planning
From: "Vladimir Vukicevic" <vladim...@gmail.com>
Date: 24 Apr 2006 13:03:37 -0700
Local: Mon, Apr 24 2006 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: Places and Firefox 2
Yes, the plan is still for mozStorage to ship with Fx2 so that it's
available to extension authors.  This should give a much nicer
alternative to RDF/XML for data storage.

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