Locale switcher functionality by default
Toni Hermoso Pulido
after Seth's recommendation
(http://blog.mozilla.com/seth/2010/02/17/language-pack-vs-official-localization/),
I would like to ask your opinion about including Locale Switcher
(https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/356) functionality by
default in new Firefox and Thunderbird versions. By the way, this is
actually possible inside SeaMonkey preferences.
Including this by default might help less advanced users to try and
switch to their most preferred language version, and may be highly
appreciated in multilingual environments (which can even be a shared
home or a family).
--
Toni Hermoso Pulido
http://www.cau.cat
Benjamin Smedberg
I don't think that locale switcher in its current form is a candidate for
integration. It adds a "Locales" menu item to the tools menu irrespective of
whether multiple locales are installed. I believe that the best place for a
locale switcher would be in the addons manager, so that switching the
current locale is just like switching the current theme: open the addons
manager, switch to the correct pane, and select the item you want.
--BDS
armenzg
> On 2/22/10 9:47 AM, Toni Hermoso Pulido wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
>
> > after Seth's recommendation
> > I would like to ask your opinion about including Locale Switcher
> > (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/356) functionality by
> > default in new Firefox and Thunderbird versions. By the way, this is
> > actually possible inside SeaMonkey preferences.
> > Including this by default might help less advanced users to try and
> > switch to their most preferred language version, and may be highly
> > appreciated in multilingual environments (which can even be a shared
> > home or a family).
>
> I don't think that locale switcher in its current form is a candidate for
> integration. It adds a "Locales" menu item to the tools menu irrespective of
> whether multiple locales are installed. I believe that the best place for a
> locale switcher would be in the addons manager, so that switching the
> current locale is just like switching the current theme: open the addons
> manager, switch to the correct pane, and select the item you want.
>
> --BDS
What Benjamin says makes sense.
I have been looking for years this to be part of Firefox by default.
Here is a student project that I wrote for students to pick up:
http://zenit.senecac.on.ca/wiki/index.php/Potential_Projects#Autoload_language_packs
In my mind, it should list what are the official langpacks for that
release are and allow the user to select them (we could tell them that
it first has to be downloaded and do it for them).
Boriss
of Firefox.
Toni, you make a good point that asking less advanced users to switch
locales in the addons manager might be problematic. I consider the
fact that language packs are technically addons to be just that - a
technicality. If they belong in the addons manager for now, it's only
because they are installed, maintained, downloaded from AMO, and
interacted with like other addons. But this grouping has never made
much sense beyond that. I doubt users would consider using the
browser in their language to be an "added on" feature much like other
addons provide, and knowing to look for language packs in the addons
manager is not something I'd expect most users to do. Adding to this
complexity is that without the proper language pack, the user might
not even be able to read well enough to try the addons manager. A
simpler way to switch locales - especially given shared computer usage
- I think would be great.
BDS is also right that adding a menu item regardless of whether
multiple locales are installed is also problematic... especially since
the UX team is trying to simplify the menus and remove unnecessary
options.
Perhaps we should consider implementing the functionality similar to
the Local Switcher addon, but only if multiple locales are installed.
A menu item could work, but even this requires some digging in what
may not be the user's primary language. Maybe we could make the
language switcher a part of the UI, if a language pack is being used.
Then the user won't need to read a language they don't understand, and
switching will be very fast. Here's a quick sketch of what that could
look like, in the style of OSX:
http://people.mozilla.com/~jboriss/design/locale_switcher_dropdown.png
Axel Hecht
Flags are evil, we shouldn't try to design UI around that.
To me, the language I use the browser in is a setting, and I like the
way that fennec did it in the prefs UI. It's an optional section in the
settings that's only shown if there are multiple choices.
I also think that we should stick to the meme that using your browser in
an additional language is a customization of your browsing experience
that should be part of add-ons.
There might be use-cases (tourist-centric internet cafes, hotel lobbies,
etc) where doing a targeted multi-locale byob with additional
customizations might come in handy. There might be more UE for profile
creation in that scenario, too.
In all other cases, we should continue our work on the website to expose
the right build to people coming to us get Firefox. The majority of our
users need only a single language, and putting UI burden on those isn't
helping.
Axel
Asa Dotzler
> much sense beyond that. I doubt users would consider using the
> browser in their language to be an "added on" feature much like other
> addons provide
I disagree. The user already has a browser in their native language. Any
installed _additional_ languages are are just that, additional.
It's not like we just ship in English and force everyone else to install
their languages as add-ons. The overwhelming majority of our users get a
Firefox that's already in their native language.
- A
Toni Hermoso Pulido
Actually, as Seth explains in his post
(http://blog.mozilla.com/seth/2010/02/17/language-pack-vs-official-localization/),
there may be cases where a full build cannot be an option �temporarily
or not�.
For instance, as it is commented above, Breton speakers are likely to
fully understand French and use it regularly, but they could enjoy
having Firefox in their own native language. Firefox can ease them this
in case they are not advanced users.
Asa Dotzler
I suspect that cases like that are going to be a pretty small minority
and for those users, a one time switch is the most likely scenario. The
case where a convenient switching UI is valuable is someone that will be
going back and forth regularly.
- A
Toni Hermoso Pulido
> On 2/23/2010 11:58 PM, Toni Hermoso Pulido wrote:
>>
>> Al 24/02/10 08:36, En/na Asa Dotzler ha escrit:
>>>
>>> On 2/23/2010 3:40 PM, Boriss wrote:
>>>
>>>> much sense beyond that. I doubt users would consider using the
>>>> browser in their language to be an "added on" feature much like other
>>>> addons provide
>>>
>>> I disagree. The user already has a browser in their native language. Any
>>> installed _additional_ languages are are just that, additional.
>>>
>>> It's not like we just ship in English and force everyone else to install
>>> their languages as add-ons. The overwhelming majority of our users get a
>>> Firefox that's already in their native language.
>>
>> Actually, as Seth explains in his post
>>
>> (http://blog.mozilla.com/seth/2010/02/17/language-pack-vs-official-localization/),
>> or not—.
>> For instance, as it is commented above, Breton speakers are likely to
>> fully understand French and use it regularly, but they could enjoy
>> having Firefox in their own native language. Firefox can ease them this
>> in case they are not advanced users.
>>
>
> I suspect that cases like that are going to be a pretty small minority and
> for those users, a one time switch is the most likely scenario. The case
> where a convenient switching UI is valuable is someone that will be going
> back and forth regularly.
>
Of course, they are a minority numerically speaking, but I think they
deserve a respect that Firefox can offer and maybe no many other
software nowadays. I'm not sure if this can always be a one time
switch: they may need to get used first to their very own language
first and so it's not unlikely that, at the beginning, they might
switch between French and Breton (or Swedish and English. let's say as
well).
As commented, maybe the natural way would be enabling it through the
addons management interface (in Language packs section) but, for
convenience, I think a menu item (as currently in Locale Switcher
extension) or an item in the status bar with the name of the active
language could be better. In any case, this option might only appear
when the number of installed locales is larger than 1, so monolingual
users would not notice any change in UI. This change in UI would only
be spotted once a language pack is installed.
My two cents,
Robert Kaiser
> I believe that
> the best place for a locale switcher would be in the addons manager, so
> that switching the current locale is just like switching the current
> theme: open the addons manager, switch to the correct pane, and select
> the item you want.
There is a long-standing open bug for that:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=377881
I'd be quite happy to see it come to live!
Robert Kaiser
Robert Kaiser
> http://people.mozilla.com/~jboriss/design/locale_switcher_dropdown.png
How nice that your mockup shows how wrong the flag idea is - Austrian is
not a language. The official language for Austria is German, even though
we have a number of dialects and regional words and phrases, similar to
the US and English (oh, and how weird does a British flag with the
"U.S." text look?) ;-)
And what's the flag for Esperanto? Why should a Swiss user never see
"his" flag, but that of one of his neighboring countries (Italy, France
or Germany)?
Flags are for countries, languages unfortunately don't have icons.
Robert Kaiser (proud to be an Austrian)
Phillip Jones
And there are two distinct versions of German. From a friend of mine's
wife she was native born Austrian during WWII (and fled to Argentina as
a child with her family). Austrian all spoke what was termed as High
German. She noted at the time most government Officials health care and
educators only spoke High German. I forgot what she called the other
type., but noted most un educated or lesser educated German's spoke
that. She noted people from Austria spoke only High German and she would
have difficulty speaking with people from certain parts of Germany
Proper. even today.
--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org
mailto:pjo...@kimbanet.com
Toni Hermoso Pulido
I don't have much idea of Germanic languages to have any opinion, but
I guess you mean:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Bavarian
Robert Kaiser
> And there are two distinct versions of German.
True and not true at the same time. There is standard German (sometimes
called "Hochdeutsch" to distinguish it from German dialects) and there
are tons of dialects. There's two if you count the official German as
one and all the dialects as another. There are dozens if you count every
dialect separately.
There is no Austrian language though.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language for more information
that is not really relevant to this thread.
Robert Kaiser
Mike Beltzner
> How nice that your mockup shows how wrong the flag idea is - Austrian is not a language. The official
Hi everyone. The point is taken that flags, themselves, don't work. Let's say we do something like what Boriss suggested (in primary UI, when langpacks are installed, allowing for quick switching!) but with country codes or some other way.
Could we try to be constructive, here, instead of piling on to a thread trying to out do ourselves in proving how wrong an idea is?
Thanks.
(Also, this discussion should really move to dev-apps-firefox, please and thank you)
cheers,
mike
Boriss
proposing exactly that image, or specifically flags, and certainly we
probably shouldn't be talking about the differences between dialects
and languages at this point. I was illustrating that it may be worth
promoting switching installed languages to the main UI for the very
few users (as Asa points out) that actually have installed another
language. The idea is that if a user has done this, it may be a one-
time switch, it may be something switched occasionally, or it might be
switched often (internet cafe scenario). But considering this effects
so very few users, but it may effect them quite a lot, perhaps
promoting to at least a menu item (as in the original proposal) would
go a long way.
Asa Dotzler
Just a quick question/suggestions. Can we include this bit of
extensibility in the language pack itself? A Jet-Language-Pack beast
that included both the translation and the UI bits for managing the
translation?
- A
johnjbarton
Just FYI: Firebug users often request Firebug-in-English for their
Firefox-in-Local-Language. They want the dev UI in English.
(Since we want to remove the DTD-based implementation anyway, providing
our own selector may not be much additional work).
jjb
Toni Hermoso Pulido
I remember that in first versions of Firefox, some community langpacks
included a functionality to switch language. I remember a Polish one,
indeed.
From my point of view, I like a location as suggested by Boriss in the
new UI (in present UI I suggested the status bar).
I would prefer plain names, but even in these cases, you can always
find people who would complain
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_given_to_the_Spanish_language).
ISO language codes are not always recognized by people, though.
I would still support having this in a more accessible place than in
addons manager, trying not to confuse monolingual users (the vast
majority) when enabling this.
If you consider so, I would move the following discussions to Firefox
and Thunderbird dev lists and open the appropriate bugs when enough
consensus is reached in the best way to implement it.
Best,
Phillip Jones
Gervase Markham
> Flags are evil, we shouldn't try to design UI around that.
By which, Axel means that flags do not have a 1:1 mapping with
languages, and therefore using flags in a language selector UI is a
great way to annoy a lot of people.
> I also think that we should stick to the meme that using your browser in
> an additional language is a customization of your browsing experience
> that should be part of add-ons.
I don't see using my browser in English is a "customization", it's a
basic part of what the browser is. And I want people speaking other
languages to feel the same, even though Firefox is not developed
natively in their language.
Just because English is well on the way to world domination doesn't mean
we should have to make everyone else feel bad about it.
;-)
> There might be use-cases (tourist-centric internet cafes, hotel lobbies,
> etc) where doing a targeted multi-locale byob with additional
> customizations might come in handy. There might be more UE for profile
> creation in that scenario, too.
I definitely think that internet cafes etc. need different UI (perhaps
even an entire "language selector" toolbar), and that should be provided
by an addon rather than being primary.
Gerv
Robert Kaiser
> Robert Kaiser wrote:
>> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language for more information
>> that is not really relevant to this thread.
>>
>> Robert Kaiser
> Austrians use/used *High German*
Thanks for telling an Austrian what inexisting language he is speaking.
Could we please stop this discussion here? It's so completely irrelevant
to *Mozilla planning* that I was asked to stop reading newsgroups by
people who are actually interested in Mozilla planning topics.
Robert Kaiser
[F'up2p set to not lengthen this thread even more]
Robert Kaiser
> I was illustrating that it may be worth
> promoting switching installed languages to the main UI for the very
> few users (as Asa points out) that actually have installed another
> language. The idea is that if a user has done this, it may be a one-
> time switch, it may be something switched occasionally, or it might be
> switched often (internet cafe scenario). But considering this effects
> so very few users, but it may effect them quite a lot, perhaps
> promoting to at least a menu item (as in the original proposal) would
> go a long way.
There are definitely interesting things in this discussion and we should
have it, but I was pointed to the fact yesterday that the planning group
is the wrong place for that, probably. I think we should take this over
to mozilla.dev.usability instead, as that's where we can discuss UI/UE
topics, even without narrowing it down to a single application in our
portfolio. ;-)
Robert Kaiser
Axel Hecht
> On 24/02/10 07:07, Axel Hecht wrote:
>> Flags are evil, we shouldn't try to design UI around that.
>
> By which, Axel means that flags do not have a 1:1 mapping with
> languages, and therefore using flags in a language selector UI is a
> great way to annoy a lot of people.
>
>> I also think that we should stick to the meme that using your browser in
>> an additional language is a customization of your browsing experience
>> that should be part of add-ons.
>
> I don't see using my browser in English is a "customization", it's a
> basic part of what the browser is. And I want people speaking other
> languages to feel the same, even though Firefox is not developed
> natively in their language.
>
> Just because English is well on the way to world domination doesn't mean
> we should have to make everyone else feel bad about it.
"Additional" is the key in my sentence, and meant as in "using more than
one language in parallel". Not that that one language would be English.
Axel