[announce] Refreshing the Firefox Search Bar
Seth Bindernagel
Today, it was announced that Mozilla will include Bing in the third
position within our defined set of search plugins that we ship with the
en-US and en-GB versions of Firefox. [1] Given Bing's significant rise
in both features and market share over the last year, we have entered
into an agreement to ship them. eBay, Amazon, and Wikipedia will remain
in the list of default plugins. However, we will be removing
Answers.com and Creative Commons from the integrated set, allowing users
to install those if they choose.
What does this mean for your locale?
Because you are the leaders of your locale, you are responsible for
helping us determine the best set of search plugins for your version.
Presently, Bing is offered in 39 countries/regions/languages [2] and we
would like you to review it as an option if applicable. The
l10n-drivers team will be filing a bug for each locale discussing this
issue and a couple other productization decisions you will need to make.
[3] If you think adding Bing is a good idea, we should conduct the same
set of research we do for every plugin we ship, looking at any market
share numbers available that will endorse the decision.
What agreement?
Adding Bing to our set of plugins provides both choices and a user
experience that meets users' needs. And, much like the agreements that
Mozilla has established with Google, Amazon, eBay and others, we will
enter into a similar revenue share with them.
What does it mean for privacy?
As some may be concerned about privacy, we took extra care to learn
about Bing's strongest privacy features and attributes. Microsoft has
been helpful and eager to explain that Bing's search history features
are very easy to manage, with turn off and clear controls always
available. The Mozilla team researching this decision also noted that
Bing has some of the most comprehensive anonymization technologies, and
has been front and center in the retention discussion across the
industry. [4]
If you have any questions, please just ask. As always, it's a pleasure
working with you on this one.
All the best,
Seth
[1]
https://blog.mozilla.com/blog/2010/10/06/refreshing-the-firefox-search-bar/
[2] http://www.bing.com/worldwide.aspx
[3] The bug will discuss removing Bloglines, which is going out of
business, researching Bing, and looking at the removal of any search
plugins like Answers or CC, depending on your locale's preference and
research.
[4]
http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft_on_the_issues/archive/2010/01/19/microsoft-advances-search-privacy-with-bing.aspx
Rimas Kudelis
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Today, it was announced that Mozilla will include Bing in the third
> position within our defined set of search plugins that we ship with the
> en-US and en-GB versions of Firefox. [1] Given Bing's significant rise
> in both features and market share over the last year, we have entered
> into an agreement to ship them. eBay, Amazon, and Wikipedia will remain
> in the list of default plugins. However, we will be removing
> Answers.com and Creative Commons from the integrated set, allowing users
> to install those if they choose.
Pretty interesting indeed. I have only one question: will Bing
autodetect users language and use it by default? Just a few days ago I
was looking at it, and it seemed to default to English and I had to
explicitly opt in to use Lithuanian interface. I don't quite like that...
> What does this mean for your locale?
>
> Because you are the leaders of your locale, you are responsible for
> helping us determine the best set of search plugins for your version.
> Presently, Bing is offered in 39 countries/regions/languages [2] and we
> would like you to review it as an option if applicable. The
> l10n-drivers team will be filing a bug for each locale discussing this
> issue and a couple other productization decisions you will need to make.
> [3] If you think adding Bing is a good idea, we should conduct the same
> set of research we do for every plugin we ship, looking at any market
> share numbers available that will endorse the decision.
How do you conduct the research? From my PoV, in Lithuania, Google is
the absolute winner, and the only reason why Bing *could* be popular
here is the fact that it's shipped with IE by default.
Rimas
Seth Bindernagel
> 2010.10.06 20:17, Seth Bindernagel rašė:
>> Hi Everyone,
>>
>> Today, it was announced that Mozilla will include Bing in the third
>> position within our defined set of search plugins that we ship with the
>> en-US and en-GB versions of Firefox. [1] Given Bing's significant rise
>> in both features and market share over the last year, we have entered
>> into an agreement to ship them. eBay, Amazon, and Wikipedia will remain
>> in the list of default plugins. However, we will be removing
>> Answers.com and Creative Commons from the integrated set, allowing users
>> to install those if they choose.
>
> Pretty interesting indeed. I have only one question: will Bing
> autodetect users language and use it by default? Just a few days ago I
> was looking at it, and it seemed to default to English and I had to
> explicitly opt in to use Lithuanian interface. I don't quite like that...
I don't know the answer to this. It is work asking Kev Neeham, who I
copied on this thread. Kev, do you have an answer to Rimas's question?
>> What does this mean for your locale?
>>
>> Because you are the leaders of your locale, you are responsible for
>> helping us determine the best set of search plugins for your version.
>> Presently, Bing is offered in 39 countries/regions/languages [2] and we
>> would like you to review it as an option if applicable. The
>> l10n-drivers team will be filing a bug for each locale discussing this
>> issue and a couple other productization decisions you will need to make.
>> [3] If you think adding Bing is a good idea, we should conduct the same
>> set of research we do for every plugin we ship, looking at any market
>> share numbers available that will endorse the decision.
>
> How do you conduct the research? From my PoV, in Lithuania, Google is
> the absolute winner, and the only reason why Bing *could* be popular
> here is the fact that it's shipped with IE by default.
I think you can find good research from Alexa or other web research
companies online. Additionally, if you feel the feature set and user
experience is better than what is being offered by another search plugin
in your version, you can enumerate those features and add that to the
mix. I'd be eager for as many locales as interested to take a look and
see if Bing is a reasonable substitute for your locale.
Kev Needham
explicitly state the locale (and a cookie will trump). We've asked about
accept-language support, and I'm still waiting on a response. Bing uses
bing.com for all locales, and optimizes by region on the back end, which
means there has to be some way to set that region.
I can see using accept-language introducing problems similar to geo-ip
(e.g. how google does it), but for now it'll probably be explicit
plugins for the various locales. I'll be sending a template around as
soon as I have a final ok from MS, and it'll be similar to the Yahoo!
plugins.
kev
On 10-10-06 3:00 PM, Seth Bindernagel wrote:
> Rimas Kudelis wrote:
>> 2010.10.06 20:17, Seth Bindernagel rašė:
>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>
>>> Today, it was announced that Mozilla will include Bing in the third
>>> position within our defined set of search plugins that we ship with the
>>> en-US and en-GB versions of Firefox. [1] Given Bing's significant rise
>>> in both features and market share over the last year, we have entered
>>> into an agreement to ship them. eBay, Amazon, and Wikipedia will remain
>>> in the list of default plugins. However, we will be removing
>>> Answers.com and Creative Commons from the integrated set, allowing users
>>> to install those if they choose.
>>
>> Pretty interesting indeed. I have only one question: will Bing
>> autodetect users language and use it by default? Just a few days ago I
>> was looking at it, and it seemed to default to English and I had to
>> explicitly opt in to use Lithuanian interface. I don't quite like that...
>
> I don't know the answer to this. It is work asking Kev Neeham, who I
> copied on this thread. Kev, do you have an answer to Rimas's question?
>
>>> What does this mean for your locale?
>>>
>>> Because you are the leaders of your locale, you are responsible for
>>> helping us determine the best set of search plugins for your version.
>>> Presently, Bing is offered in 39 countries/regions/languages [2] and we
>>> would like you to review it as an option if applicable. The
>>> l10n-drivers team will be filing a bug for each locale discussing this
>>> issue and a couple other productization decisions you will need to make.
>>> [3] If you think adding Bing is a good idea, we should conduct the same
>>> set of research we do for every plugin we ship, looking at any market
>>> share numbers available that will endorse the decision.
>>
>> How do you conduct the research? From my PoV, in Lithuania, Google is
>> the absolute winner, and the only reason why Bing *could* be popular
>> here is the fact that it's shipped with IE by default.
>
Danishka Navin
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Today, it was announced that Mozilla will include Bing in the third
> position within our defined set of search plugins that we ship with the
> en-US and en-GB versions of Firefox. [1] Given Bing's significant rise in
> both features and market share over the last year, we have entered into an
> agreement to ship them. eBay, Amazon, and Wikipedia will remain in the list
> of default plugins. However, we will be removing Answers.com and Creative
> Commons from the integrated set, allowing users to install those if they
> choose.
>
> What does this mean for your locale?
>
> Because you are the leaders of your locale, you are responsible for helping
> us determine the best set of search plugins for your version. Presently,
> Bing is offered in 39 countries/regions/languages [2] and we would like you
> to review it as an option if applicable. The l10n-drivers team will be
> filing a bug for each locale discussing this issue and a couple other
> productization decisions you will need to make. [3] If you think adding
> Bing is a good idea, we should conduct the same set of research we do for
> every plugin we ship, looking at any market share numbers available that
> will endorse the decision.
>
> What agreement?
>
> Adding Bing to our set of plugins provides both choices and a user
> experience that meets users' needs. And, much like the agreements that
> Mozilla has established with Google, Amazon, eBay and others, we will enter
> into a similar revenue share with them.
>
> What does it mean for privacy?
>
> As some may be concerned about privacy, we took extra care to learn about
> Bing's strongest privacy features and attributes. Microsoft has been
> helpful and eager to explain that Bing's search history features are very
> easy to manage, with turn off and clear controls always available. The
> Mozilla team researching this decision also noted that Bing has some of the
> most comprehensive anonymization technologies, and has been front and center
> in the retention discussion across the industry. [4]
>
> If you have any questions, please just ask. As always, it's a pleasure
> working with you on this one.
>
i asked the interest of my community on last night via identi.ca, twitter
and FB..
all replies were negative
they don't care whether it localized or not but as a product they still
prefer Google Search
>
> All the best,
>
> Seth
>
> [1]
> https://blog.mozilla.com/blog/2010/10/06/refreshing-the-firefox-search-bar/
> [2] http://www.bing.com/worldwide.aspx
> [3] The bug will discuss removing Bloglines, which is going out of
> business, researching Bing, and looking at the removal of any search plugins
> like Answers or CC, depending on your locale's preference and research.
> [4]
> http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft_on_the_issues/archive/2010/01/19/microsoft-advances-search-privacy-with-bing.aspx
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> dev-...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>
--
Danishka Navin
http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/danishkanavin
http://identi.ca/danishka
Benoit
Can you remind us how many searchplugins we are allowed to ship? I can't
seem to find where this was explained.
As I understand it, the reason we can add Bing is that we also remove
Answers.com and Creative Commons. But in some locales, these two don't
exist because they were already replaced with something more
appropriate. That could make the choice more difficult.
Thanks!
Seth Bindernagel
Benoit wrote:
> Hi Seth,
>
> Can you remind us how many searchplugins we are allowed to ship? I can't
> seem to find where this was explained.
Typically, we ask Localizers to consider 6 plugins, 2 General Search, 2
eCommerce, 2 specific-interest. You can find the guidelines here:
https://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Firefox/Productization
> As I understand it, the reason we can add Bing is that we also remove
> Answers.com and Creative Commons. But in some locales, these two don't
> exist because they were already replaced with something more
> appropriate. That could make the choice more difficult.
That's true. In the en versions, the decision was clear the Bing was a
good solution to offer. But, as the Mozilla team noted in their
discussions with Bing as well as the public announcement, the localizers
really decide what is best for the local context. In many cases,
Answers and CC may have been removed long ago because they had no local
relevance.
My recommendation is to research Bing as an option. If it seems like a
better solution than a plugin you currently ship, nominate the change
as a response to the bug that the l10n-drivers are going to file in the
near future. If Answers and CC remain in your set of plugins, you may
consider replacing them with Bing, if that is a better option.
I hope that helps.
Seth
Benoit
> Typically, we ask Localizers to consider 6 plugins, 2 General Search, 2
> eCommerce, 2 specific-interest. You can find the guidelines here:
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Firefox/Productization
Thanks for the link!
Is that rule still accurate though? The addition of Bing would make
three "General Search" in en-US.
The point is, we already have six searchplugins in French, and Creative
Commons and Answers.com were dropped long ago (they didn't offer
localized content at the time).
This can only mean one thing: to add Bing we would have to remove either
an eCommerce (Amazon or eBay) or a specific interest search (we use
Wikipedia and an online dictionary). That's a very difficult tradeoff.
Do you think that the rule could be relaxed a little to allow for 7
searchplugins only if the 7st is Bing? That would be far easier to sell
to the community, I think. Note that we haven't tried yet, it's just
that I expect some resistance to this change.
--
Benoit
Seth Bindernagel
Those rules do still apply, yes. We'd like to keep the set of option to
6 if possible. I guess the point is, if you think Bing would be a
better option than your other general search option, then you should
nominate it. If you think Bing would be better than one of your
specific interest search options, then you should nominate it.
Since we like to keep 2 e-commerce option, I might recommend leaving
Amazon and eBay since those seem very relevant for French users. Do you
agree with that?
Robert Kaiser
> Typically, we ask Localizers to consider 6 plugins, 2 General Search, 2
> eCommerce, 2 specific-interest. You can find the guidelines here:
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Firefox/Productization
Still, en-US now has 3 General Search now, is that right? So are we
breaking our own rules there for the "main" locale? :P
Robert Kaiser
--
Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never
meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible
arguments that we as a community needs answers to. And most of the time,
I even appreciate irony and fun! :)
Seth Bindernagel
Robert Kaiser wrote:
> Seth Bindernagel wrote:
>> Typically, we ask Localizers to consider 6 plugins, 2 General Search, 2
>> eCommerce, 2 specific-interest. You can find the guidelines here:
>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Firefox/Productization
>
> Still, en-US now has 3 General Search now, is that right? So are we
> breaking our own rules there for the "main" locale? :P
>
Yes, Kairo. Thank you for pointing out something that I thought was
understood.
Axel Hecht
being a 3-2-1 now.
WRT to French, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=488031 added
cnrt-tlfi in 2009. Sadly the arguments in favor of it are not in the bug.
Here's how I'd paraphrase the discussion: If you want to wish to add
bing, and you're going beyond 6 plugins, we should re-evaluate why we
have which plugin, and if the reasons for that are still valid.
As a data point, we have a few locales with 7, 8, or even 9 plugins, too.
Axel
Tomer Cohen
> Right now, it works more like Yahoo! does, where the query has to
> explicitly state the locale (and a cookie will trump). We've asked about
> accept-language support, and I'm still waiting on a response. Bing uses
> bing.com for all locales, and optimizes by region on the back end, which
> means there has to be some way to set that region.
I think they already use accept-languages, at least for some locales.
Hebrew, for example, is not available on the site, but if you'll use a
browser with Hebrew UI, you'll get the option to use the Hebrew
website from the region selection on top of the page, which will
appear as 'International | Hebrew'.
Also, please keep in mind that their implementation is not complete;
Although I can choose to see the website in Hebrew, their preferences
screen doesn't have such option, so if typical user will get an Hebrew
website UI, and will change some some preferences, the site language
will be switched to Ukraine, which is the first value from the
language selection drop down.
Tomer.
Staś Małolepszy
Axel Hecht wrote:
> I guess we'll need to update that doc, I heard the punchline of that
> being a 3-2-1 now.
I still prefer the general rule to be 2-2-2, and the en-US case to be an
exception (like a couple of other locales). Exceptions are totally fine
as long as there's a good reason for them.
For the French case, if the current search engines are good, I wouldn't
like to see any of them being removed. If Bing offers good quality for
our French users, I would suggest that you consider adding it as a 7th
engine (3rd in the 'general' category), or replacing yahoo with it. It's
really all about what you think is good for the users.
The guidelines on the wiki are just that, *guidelines*. Well documented
exceptions are more than welcome. They add flavor to our localizations
and allow us to be more flexible about the needs of our local users.
-stas