Feedback on L10n:Ownership draft
Ricardo Palomares Martinez
Sorry, Axel, I can't find in my local leafnode news archive your
message regarding this draft, so I start a new thread.
You asked us for feedback about:
http://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Ownership
I read it at that time, but I didn't have enough time nor interesting
remarks to pronounce myself. However, I've reread it a bit more in
depth and I have some suggestions:
- I would stress that the first thing to be an owner is to have
followed applicable steps at
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Create_a_new_localization.
- I would remark the differences (if any) between a product owner and
the team owner.
- In the Other obligations / CVS section, I propose a brief detail
list with links to real content:
- Getting CVS access with links to:
http://www.mozilla.org/hacking/getting-cvs-write-access.html and
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=mozilla.org&component=CVS%20Account%20Request&version=other&rep_platform=All&op_sys=All&priority=--&bug_severity=normal&target_milestone=---&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&assigned_to=registration%40localization.bugs&qa_contact=registration%40localization.bugs&short_desc=l10n%20CVS%20account%20for%20John%20Doe%20(ab-CD)
- Checking out files from CVS:
- The formal way (link to
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Create_a_new_localization)
- How to check out just browser, or just mail, or just toolkit, or
just <your_favourite_module_here> vs. checking out everything
- Translating, distributing among peers, merging work, reviewing
- Using plain UTF-8 editors
- Using tools (not specific instructions, just pointers to docs
for MT, Translate-Toolkit, etc.)
- Commiting changes to CVS
- Setting up the environment for authenticated CVS access
(pointers to docs, not actual docs)
- Previewing changes: cvs -z3 diff -u | less
- Commiting changes: cvs commit -m "Meaningful message"
- Rolling back?
- Updating en-US files for changes
- cvs update vs. cvs checkout? (I'll will be grateful myself for
info on this) :-)
Maybe most of above list second-level lists would go in separate
documents, in order to keep Other obligations / CVS section short.
- In the Other obligations / Following announcements:
- Remark that mozilla.* hierarchy is not available outside
news.mozilla.org for read-write.
- Explain that "watch firef...@hotmail.com" in BMO is done
through Edit Preferences -> Email Preferences
- In the Other obligations / Communication with the Mozilla Project:
- I would remark this: "This is extremly important in any case
related to trademarks use, promotion etc. Locale team should not
start new mozilla related webpage or campaign, without Mozilla
Foundation agreement".
- I would try to expand a little more in the Peers section:
- how far can a peer go while replacing an owner? Which tasks is an
owner supposed to be able to delegate to peers and which not?
- is it important to standardize on a single L10n tool (or none at
all) inside a locale team?
- if an owner quits without warning MLP, how can a peer being
promoted to owner? Is there any rule in case of conflict between
several peers?
And three more general comments:
- I still find a lot of details when it comes to Firefox but an
overwhelming lack of them for other products, even for Thunderbird.
What about some notes for a "2.4 Thunderbird and other products owners"?
- Docs like http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox2/L10n_Requirements seem
too version-specific for me. That doc has been very useful (at least
for me) while working for FX2, but I'm not sure right now if it would
be so useful for FX3, because it stressed some changes (like local URL
formats) that won't probably exist for FX3 and, anyway, will be
something locale teams are not prone to touch now.
- A minor one: I find that title styling in wiki is not clear enough
to see which titles are main sections (like Role, Other obligations
and Peers) and which are subsections. Sure, there are differently
styled, but which is more "important", the slightly bigger font of
"Peers" or the bolder style of "Communication within the Mozilla Project"?
That's all for a first review. :-)
Ricardo
--
If it's true that we are here to help others,
then what exactly are the OTHERS here for?
Axel Hecht
> Hi,
>
> Sorry, Axel, I can't find in my local leafnode news archive your
> message regarding this draft, so I start a new thread.
Thanks for that.
> You asked us for feedback about:
>
> http://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Ownership
>
> I read it at that time, but I didn't have enough time nor interesting
> remarks to pronounce myself. However, I've reread it a bit more in
> depth and I have some suggestions:
>
> - I would stress that the first thing to be an owner is to have
> followed applicable steps at
> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Create_a_new_localization.
I'd rather have the content of becoming an owner separate to being an
owner. It might be good to have an "interesting reads" section, though.
> - I would remark the differences (if any) between a product owner and
> the team owner.
If I only knew. Could some of the team owners chime in and give some
input on what they're doing?
The cut I heard of are that the product owners tend to be more
technically savvy, which the team owners tend to be more
administrational, perhaps longer-living, in project scope, not making
any claims on real life here. But that's really just my gut feeling from
the projects that layed that out to me.
> - In the Other obligations / CVS section, I propose a brief detail
> list with links to real content:
>
> - Getting CVS access with links to:
> http://www.mozilla.org/hacking/getting-cvs-write-access.html and
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=mozilla.org&component=CVS%20Account%20Request&version=other&rep_platform=All&op_sys=All&priority=--&bug_severity=normal&target_milestone=---&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&assigned_to=registration%40localization.bugs&qa_contact=registration%40localization.bugs&short_desc=l10n%20CVS%20account%20for%20John%20Doe%20(ab-CD)
>
>
> - Checking out files from CVS:
> - The formal way (link to
> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Create_a_new_localization)
> - How to check out just browser, or just mail, or just toolkit, or
> just <your_favourite_module_here> vs. checking out everything
>
> - Translating, distributing among peers, merging work, reviewing
> - Using plain UTF-8 editors
> - Using tools (not specific instructions, just pointers to docs
> for MT, Translate-Toolkit, etc.)
>
> - Commiting changes to CVS
> - Setting up the environment for authenticated CVS access
> (pointers to docs, not actual docs)
> - Previewing changes: cvs -z3 diff -u | less
> - Commiting changes: cvs commit -m "Meaningful message"
> - Rolling back?
>
> - Updating en-US files for changes
> - cvs update vs. cvs checkout? (I'll will be grateful myself for
> info on this) :-)
These are topics that sound like FAQ or best practices. Good to write
down, not necessarily part of the ownership doc, though.
Regarding update vs checkout, the main mozilla rep partially depends on
cvs modules, SeamonkeyAll in particular. That can only be checked out,
not updated. Thus, all "get my working copy up-to-date" targets work on
check-out. For the l10n rep, cvs update is usually good to go.
> Maybe most of above list second-level lists would go in separate
> documents, in order to keep Other obligations / CVS section short.
>
> - In the Other obligations / Following announcements:
>
> - Remark that mozilla.* hierarchy is not available outside
> news.mozilla.org for read-write.
I should probably make that a link to n.m.o, and add a link to
http://www.mozilla.org/community/developer-forums.html next to it?
> - Explain that "watch firef...@hotmail.com" in BMO is done
> through Edit Preferences -> Email Preferences
Yeah.
> - In the Other obligations / Communication with the Mozilla Project:
>
> - I would remark this: "This is extremly important in any case
> related to trademarks use, promotion etc. Locale team should not
> start new mozilla related webpage or campaign, without Mozilla
> Foundation agreement".
I should probably check with the mofo guys on how up-to-date the l10n
trademarks policy is, too.
> - I would try to expand a little more in the Peers section:
> - how far can a peer go while replacing an owner? Which tasks is an
> owner supposed to be able to delegate to peers and which not?
Yeah. How do I word "we'll chop off the owner's head, no matter who did it".
> - is it important to standardize on a single L10n tool (or none at
> all) inside a locale team?
I would think that this would be cool for a best-practices doc. I can
safely say that it's not important to me that the team agrees on one
tool, but that the tools chosen don't suck, in particular, that they
create good patches.
> - if an owner quits without warning MLP, how can a peer being
> promoted to owner? Is there any rule in case of conflict between
> several peers?
There is no such thing as an absence of a "iron fist in velvet glove".
If necessary, the module owner should step up, if necessary, I'll step
up, if necessary, drivers step up, if necessary, brendan or mitchell
step up. With the addition of me to some extent, this is the usual
Mozilla escalation path, which is likely undocumented itself. The
modification is rather slim, as I'm actually a driver myself, so
mentioning me explicitly is more or less just for reducing the noise on
that list. And on the drivers list, I'd be the one to answer anyway, so
that's really only useful if you need to escalate past me.
> And three more general comments:
>
> - I still find a lot of details when it comes to Firefox but an
> overwhelming lack of them for other products, even for Thunderbird.
> What about some notes for a "2.4 Thunderbird and other products owners"?
Can I just say "yep"? Please? Pretty please, even?
There are no other products but Thunderbird, and even that currently is
more of a publically announced project than anything else. Mozilla
internal discussion pending here.
> - Docs like http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox2/L10n_Requirements seem
> too version-specific for me. That doc has been very useful (at least
> for me) while working for FX2, but I'm not sure right now if it would
> be so useful for FX3, because it stressed some changes (like local URL
> formats) that won't probably exist for FX3 and, anyway, will be
> something locale teams are not prone to touch now.
Yes, there should be http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3/L10n_Requirements.
The bigger problem I have right now is, who should own that doc. Not
necessarily me, not necessarily mic, not necessarily schrep. I just
wrote a mail on that.
> - A minor one: I find that title styling in wiki is not clear enough
> to see which titles are main sections (like Role, Other obligations
> and Peers) and which are subsections. Sure, there are differently
> styled, but which is more "important", the slightly bigger font of
> "Peers" or the bolder style of "Communication within the Mozilla Project"?
Yeah, that's not too clear. devmo is even worse, it seems, 1.5 vs 1.6em
fontsize. :-)
> That's all for a first review. :-)
Thanks again.
Axel
Ricardo Palomares Martinez
> Ricardo Palomares Martinez wrote:
> >
> I'd rather have the content of becoming an owner separate to being an
> owner. It might be good to have an "interesting reads" section, though.
That's OK for me.
>> - I would remark the differences (if any) between a product owner and
>> the team owner.
>
> If I only knew. Could some of the team owners chime in and give some
> input on what they're doing?
> The cut I heard of are that the product owners tend to be more
> technically savvy, which the team owners tend to be more
> administrational, perhaps longer-living, in project scope, not making
> any claims on real life here. But that's really just my gut feeling from
> the projects that layed that out to me.
In our case (es-ES), Andrés is listed as team owner, but I'm not sure
we really have such a thing as a team owner.
>>
>> - In the Other obligations / Following announcements:
>>
>> - Remark that mozilla.* hierarchy is not available outside
>> news.mozilla.org for read-write.
>
> I should probably make that a link to n.m.o, and add a link to
> http://www.mozilla.org/community/developer-forums.html next to it?
A news: URL may not be needed, making clear the news server name will.
The link to Developer Forums looks good, but the reference to news
server name is not prominent, so I would keep it in ownership document.
>
>> - I would try to expand a little more in the Peers section:
>> - how far can a peer go while replacing an owner? Which tasks is an
>> owner supposed to be able to delegate to peers and which not?
>
> Yeah. How do I word "we'll chop off the owner's head, no matter who did
> it".
That's good spelling, I think. :-)
I've taken the freedom to slightly edit the document following your
reply. Please, correct anything doesn't suit you.
Ricardo.
Axel Hecht
Those edits were good, thanks.
Axel
Muguntharaj Subramanian
>
>
> > - I would try to expand a little more in the Peers section:
> > - how far can a peer go while replacing an owner? Which tasks is an
> > owner supposed to be able to delegate to peers and which not?
>
> Yeah. How do I word "we'll chop off the owner's head, no matter who did
> it".
>
> > - is it important to standardize on a single L10n tool (or none at
> > all) inside a locale team?
>
> I would think that this would be cool for a best-practices doc. I can
> safely say that it's not important to me that the team agrees on one
> tool, but that the tools chosen don't suck, in particular, that they
> create good patches.
>
> > - if an owner quits without warning MLP, how can a peer being
> > promoted to owner? Is there any rule in case of conflict between
> > several peers?
>
> There is no such thing as an absence of a "iron fist in velvet glove".
> If necessary, the module owner should step up, if necessary, I'll step
> up, if necessary, drivers step up, if necessary, brendan or mitchell
> step up. With the addition of me to some extent, this is the usual
> Mozilla escalation path, which is likely undocumented itself. The
> modification is rather slim, as I'm actually a driver myself, so
> mentioning me explicitly is more or less just for reducing the noise on
> that list. And on the drivers list, I'd be the one to answer anyway, so
> that's really only useful if you need to escalate past me.
>
>
I read the L10n Ownership draft and I feel we should clarify more on the
role of peer.
In case of tamil (ta-IN) localization. The owner(Veera) has not been in
touch(could not be contacted) with the peer(myself) for more than a year.
And I decided to step in and filed a bug for cvs account.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=359599
As of now I dont see any positive reply from Veera(owner) - he just given
some comment that he is back and no further emails from him and not able to
contact him.
And more to that Mozilla.org staff also dont seem to respond fast to the
bug: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=359599
And the end result is our tamil l10n effort is not moving forward.
We need to know clearly whats the role of Peer? If the owner is not
performing his role, there should be a way for the peer to step in and take
the localisation project forward. Else the l10n project will suffer (like
how tamil l10n project).
BTW, Alex, Please advice I(as peer of the project) can do for activating
tamil project given the present suituation ?
Regards,
Mugunth
http://mugunth.blogspot.com
http://thamizha.com
http://tamilblogs.com
--
http://webspace2host.com
"Your friendly hosting provider"
Axel Hecht
Hi Mugunth,
actually, I think that the role of a peer is more team-defined than
Mozilla-defined. In the Tamil case, I see more of a team-forming problem
than a peer-role problem. Rules don't seem to be the best way to fix that.
> And more to that Mozilla.org staff also dont seem to respond fast to the
> bug: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=359599
>
> And the end result is our tamil l10n effort is not moving forward.
> We need to know clearly whats the role of Peer? If the owner is not
> performing his role, there should be a way for the peer to step in and take
> the localisation project forward. Else the l10n project will suffer (like
> how tamil l10n project).
>
> BTW, Alex, Please advice I(as peer of the project) can do for activating
> tamil project given the present suituation ?
>
Hrm, I should try to remember to poke marcia again on the form.
I'll do an email reply here, too.
Axel