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Time to take a step back

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JoeS

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Aug 2, 2009, 9:27:05 PM8/2/09
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I have no way of knowing how recent changes have been accepted by "new users"
We do have some sources for that:
Well, I could enumerate the objections but, I think they are understood.
Hendrix shows mostly negative on the new header UI and icons.

I think it's important to generate "energy" within the user community, but when that energy is devoted to changing the
current trend, that should be a wake up call.

The 2 main areas of contention:

*New message reader UI*

Here's one from Hendrix

> The toolbar on the message pane is sooo big, and there doesn't seem to
> be a way to reduce the size. With Thunderbird 2 I could collapse it to
> a single line that only showed the from: and subject: ; this was
> perfect, it looked good, didn't distract the eye and I could expand it
> if I needed to.

*New icon set*

http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1371685

Ya-know if the anticipated "new user base" finds these changes good, then so be it.
Veteran users can always customize.

BTW What happened to the stated objective when Mozilla messaging was born.
"Hire a c++ programmer capable of addressing some of the problems in LibeMime."


--
JoeS Using TB3
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Thunderbird_3.0_-_New_Features_and_Changes
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Thunderbird/Thunderbird_Binaries

Alan Lord (News)

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Aug 3, 2009, 3:51:52 AM8/3/09
to
On 03/08/09 02:27, JoeS wrote:
<snip />

> *New message reader UI*
>
> Here's one from Hendrix
>
>> The toolbar on the message pane is sooo big, and there doesn't seem to
>> be a way to reduce the size. With Thunderbird 2 I could collapse it to
>> a single line that only showed the from: and subject: ; this was
>> perfect, it looked good, didn't distract the eye and I could expand it
>> if I needed to.

I have to agree.

Just try running Shredder on any netbook with a 1024x600 resolution. You
can barely see any of the actual *content* of the message. There seems
to be a great deal of wasted screen estate for these low res yet
increasingly popular netbook pcs.

I have stuck a screenshot in imagebin:

http://imagebin.ca/view/Wzq44Tj.html

HTH

Al

Peter Lairo

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Aug 3, 2009, 1:07:25 PM8/3/09
to
On 03.08.2009 3:27, JoeS wrote:
> Hendrix shows mostly negative on the new header UI

That shouldn't come as a surprise:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=474523#c8
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=474523#c23
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=474523#c28
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=474523#c29
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=474523#c32
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=474523#c33

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Compact_Message_Header:Use_Cases

> and icons.

This too was expected and warned about:

news://news.mozilla.com:119/zPudnabQ47fdsLrX...@mozilla.org

> that should be a wake up call.

I hope it is heard.

> Veteran users can always customize.

No, because some "veteran" users are not expert users. And I'm tired of
"fixing" poor default settings on all my users' installations (adding
the "Size" column being another).
--
Regards,

Peter Lairo

The browser you can trust: www.Firefox.com
Reclaim Your Inbox: www.GetThunderbird.com

Islam: http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam101/
Israel: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/
Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster: http://www.venganza.org/

"So, why don't we ever talk about the sun's contribution to global
warming? Well, because we can't regulate it, tax it, or make it feel
guilty for what it's doing" (www.WhatYouOughtToKnow.com)

Andrew Sutherland

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Aug 3, 2009, 6:14:24 PM8/3/09
to
On 08/02/2009 06:27 PM, JoeS wrote:
> I think it's important to generate "energy" within the user community,
> but when that energy is devoted to changing the
> current trend, that should be a wake up call.

What kind of energy do you think you are generating right now?

Andrew

JoeS

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Aug 3, 2009, 7:57:08 PM8/3/09
to

Constructive criticism is not negative.
My guess is that we lost that Hendrix poster as a TB user.
Without alternate message views (like F11, or the compact header solution),
and with the proliferation of small screen netbooks, I'm suggesting we may loose more.

Dan

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Aug 3, 2009, 10:40:42 PM8/3/09
to
All of these comments are valid. I'm very worried that all of the
unannounced and (mostly) unwanted UI changes are going to totally kill
TB. I'm at a loss as to why some of these things were done, and there
is a general perception that user feedback is not wanted and ignored.
I completely understand the need for progress etc, but it seems some
decisions have been made that are completely arbitrary and do not take
into account that users work very many different ways.

And I'm especially disturbed by some of the recent suggestions to take
away many of the main toolbar icons by default, thus forcing us to use
the new "lovely" header pane. That's great if you open every message
in a new tab/window or go into the body, but many us use the 3-pane
view and it's so much move convenient to use the toolbar. And yes, it
can be customized back, but why should we have to do that? And new
users are going to be at a loss, because almost every single mail app
has basic functions in the toolbar.

And then the new header pane. Again, why do we need to have a big
ugly space hogging header, when I don't recall anyone complaining
about the old one. Even the compact header restored with the
unofficial extension still takes up more space than the old one. For
some, the new buttons etc will be very nice, but for many it's
completely unwanted. If you use a 3-pane view, space is critical, so
why is yet another thing being taken away? Users should not be "told"
that a certain way of working is better for them. Allow choice.
That's what always made TB so great!

Next, I have to vent about the XP tango icons. Almost everyone (with
a few exceptions) think they look awful and out of place on Windows.
And even if you kind of like them, they simply do not match the types
of smooth slick icons windows users are used to. If you come from
Linux, you may like such things. But many of us do not, and although
an icon refresh would be nice, the new set is much worse than the old
one.

Finally, there is all of the energy being devoted to the new GLODA
search system. It seems to be the driver for many of the unwanted UI
changes, yet I'm not sure how useful or wanted this even is. I think
many of us do NOT have thousands of e-mails and need a super-duper
search system. This one feature is being touted as the best thing
since sliced bread, but I don't think I'll ever use it. And it's
causing so much pain.

I'd much rather see refinement of the tab options and lightning
integration. I would be so happy if after opening my calendar in a
tab, it was restored the next time I opened TB! But alas, it seems
this has been put aside for now.

You combine all of these things together, and I think less technically
inclined users will either stay on TB2 or use something else. And new
users...I don't think the changes so far will have them racing to
download TB3. Perhaps all of this is temporary and eventually there
will be a nice polished outcome, but I'm not so sure.

I've never gotten involved in TB so much before, but because I love
the app I'm commenting now all over the place (forums, bug reports
etc.). I went so far as to make a theme using the old TB2 icons.
That's insane! If existing (and probably) new users have to install
themes and extensions to make it work how they want, that's a big
problem. And for new users the "out of box" experience has to be
good. Perhaps I'm just a pessimist, but I don't think the current
builds are pleasant to use at all on XP, unless you go through the
hassle of the work-arounds.

I'm not trying to be too negative here, it's just the main problem
seems to be user input is being ignored, and there is no real sense of
how the changes are being received. If you check the latest TB3 Beta
3 feedback thread, you'll see much of it is negative:
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1371685

Many of us would just be happy if we had one place to make our voices
heard, and we knew the devs were listening and acknowledge they
understand our concerns, and work to find solutions that make everyone
happy. You need to have to accept negative feedback, especially if
valid, specific points are being made.

Okay, I'm done rambling for now, and have to stop wasting so much time
commenting on this. Hopefully all of the recent noise will lead to
something good for everyone involved.

John W. Moore III

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Aug 3, 2009, 11:28:52 PM8/3/09
to T-Bird 3.0 Dev
Dan wrote:

> And then the new header pane. Again, why do we need to have a big
> ugly space hogging header, when I don't recall anyone complaining
> about the old one.

This really is an obnoxious view. With Tb2 I could choose 'Normal',
'Extended Normal' or 'Full'. Now I am confronted with unnecessary
information for 95% of every Email I Open. :(

> Next, I have to vent about the XP tango icons. Almost everyone (with
> a few exceptions) think they look awful and out of place on Windows.
> And even if you kind of like them, they simply do not match the types
> of smooth slick icons windows users are used to. If you come from
> Linux, you may like such things. But many of us do not, and although
> an icon refresh would be nice, the new set is much worse than the old
> one.

I totally agree. While customization is/will be possible once
Theme/Extension Developers catch up; at present the default icon set
with Tb3 is visually disruptive on XP. <SIGH> Being 'different' does
not equate to automatically being 'better'.

> Finally, there is all of the energy being devoted to the new GLODA
> search system. It seems to be the driver for many of the unwanted UI
> changes, yet I'm not sure how useful or wanted this even is. I think
> many of us do NOT have thousands of e-mails and need a super-duper
> search system. This one feature is being touted as the best thing
> since sliced bread, but I don't think I'll ever use it. And it's
> causing so much pain.

Since 98% of all My Emails are encrypted [and stored that way] message
Search is useless to Me. The code required for this bloats Tb3,
particularly for those of Us who will never use it. The other
presumption that irks Me is that too much focus is being placed on using
Thunderbird as a News Reader. I'd wager that the vast majority of
T-Bird Users are simply looking for an efficient, fast MUA. Maybe
'Search' and 'Reader' functions could be optional installations using
the 'Custom' radio button during install? This way those of Us who have
no use for these 'features' could bypass them. :-\

> You combine all of these things together, and I think less technically
> inclined users will either stay on TB2 or use something else. And new
> users...I don't think the changes so far will have them racing to
> download TB3. Perhaps all of this is temporary and eventually there
> will be a nice polished outcome, but I'm not so sure.

Frankly, if I weren't an Extension Developer/Tester [Enigmail] I would
be inclined to remain with T-Bird 2.0.0.22. Another irritation is that
when an .eml attachment is received and 'Open' is used from the right
click context Menu there is no easy way to close the viewed attachment
without entirely closing Thunderbird and having to re-Open it.


> For new users the "out of box" experience has to be


> good. Perhaps I'm just a pessimist, but I don't think the current
> builds are pleasant to use at all on XP, unless you go through the
> hassle of the work-arounds.

Even workarounds are Hit or Miss until One figures out just which
necessary Extension/Add-On can be successfully 'Force Install'.

> Many of us would just be happy if we had one place to make our voices
> heard, and we knew the devs were listening and acknowledge they
> understand our concerns, and work to find solutions that make everyone
> happy. You need to have to accept negative feedback, especially if
> valid, specific points are being made.

Excellent suggestion. Particularly if there was a Forum where Beta
Users could share Tips 'n Tricks regarding what Extensions, workarounds
and solutions work.

Thanks for making the time to read this. <fingers crossed>

JOHN ;)
Timestamp: Monday 03 Aug 2009, 23:28 --400 (Eastern Daylight Time)

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Marcel Berteler

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Aug 4, 2009, 4:58:56 AM8/4/09
to
Dan wrote the following on 2009/08/04 04:40:
> Finally, there is all of the energy being devoted to the new GLODA
> search system. It seems to be the driver for many of the unwanted UI
> changes, yet I'm not sure how useful or wanted this even is. I think
> many of us do NOT have thousands of e-mails and need a super-duper
> search system. This one feature is being touted as the best thing
> since sliced bread, but I don't think I'll ever use it. And it's
> causing so much pain.
I must say that when I was still using Eudora, I loved the search
function within Eudora. After moving to TB I found the search to be
limited. But than Google Desktop came along and I hardly use the
embedded search function in TB anymore, other than to find an email from
a specific person. (and I do have thousands of emails)

Searching is a great feature, but there are other tools that can already
do this good enough. Focus should be on delivering an Email client that
is user friendly and functional and reasonably on time. TB2.0 was
released half way 2008!!! its now August 2009 and still no stable version.

Please make sure feedback is used and understood for what it is.
Negative feedback still shows the person still cares enough to take out
time to write.

What should actually be looked at is the amount of people that no longer
comment / provide feedback because they feel it is not appreciated
and/or used. Has the amount of unique users using the forums gone down
or up?

Also interesting would be a simple count of the amount of messages in
the forums about this specific specific topic of 'user feedback'.

>
> I'd much rather see refinement of the tab options and lightning
> integration. I would be so happy if after opening my calendar in a
> tab, it was restored the next time I opened TB! But alas, it seems
> this has been put aside for now.
>

Although the Lightning and Thunderbird are separate, I share your
frustration. A good example of what could happen when user feedback is
not being used, is the recent 0.9.5 release of Lighting by Inverse.

There is a need for updates on Lighting for TB2, but since the
developers feel it is not worth their while and rather wait for TB3 a
3rd party decided to take over. I would say this can almost be seen as
'forking' which is a clear indication that there is big enough
difference of opinion between the community and the project 'owners'.

This risk exists for TB3 as well. If TB 3 is full of unwanted stuff,
there will be people out there that will create a more usable release.

Although it is good for the end user, I think it would be so much better
to prevent the need for a TB3 fork.

Marcel

Simon Paquet

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Aug 4, 2009, 6:08:06 AM8/4/09
to
Marcel Berteler wrote on 04. Aug 2009:

>> I'd much rather see refinement of the tab options and lightning
>> integration. I would be so happy if after opening my calendar in a
>> tab, it was restored the next time I opened TB! But alas, it seems
>> this has been put aside for now.
>
> Although the Lightning and Thunderbird are separate, I share your
> frustration. A good example of what could happen when user feedback
> is not being used, is the recent 0.9.5 release of Lighting by Inverse.
>
> There is a need for updates on Lighting for TB2, but since the
> developers feel it is not worth their while and rather wait for TB3
> a 3rd party decided to take over. I would say this can almost be seen
> as 'forking' which is a clear indication that there is big enough
> difference of opinion between the community and the project 'owners'.

Please do not rewrite history, Marcel.

The Lightning developers have clearly recognized the need for updates
to the 0.9 release, which is why they gave their blessing to Inverse
and have actively recognized and promoted them on their blog.

The reason for the decision to exclusively concentrate on the upcoming
Lightning release supporting TB3 was not any kind of malintent or the
disregard for user feedback, but the lack of resources to support 0.9
*and* work on a Lightning release for TB3.

Because once TB3 is out (and I'm sure it will be out this year) people
will upgrade their installations like hell, because TB3 in its current
state is already way better than TB2. And when they have upgraded they
want to have a Lightning extension as well and if the Lightning
developers can't deliver it in time this will both hurt the Lightning
project and Thunderbird, as Lightning is by far the most popular TB
extension around.

Simon

--
Thunderbird/Calendar Localisation (L10n) Coordinator
Thunderbird l10n blog: http://thunderbird-l10n.blogspot.com
Calendar website maintainer: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar
Calendar developer blog: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/calendar

Marcel Berteler

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Aug 4, 2009, 6:45:08 AM8/4/09
to
Simon Paquet wrote the following on 2009/08/04 12:08:
> The Lightning developers have clearly recognized the need for updates
> to the 0.9 release, which is why they gave their blessing to Inverse
> and have actively recognized and promoted them on their blog.

Not sure what you imply by 'gave their blessing'.

Why where the Inverse developers not invited to contribute to a Mozilla
Lightning 0.9.5 release so all people using 0.9 where automatically
updated?

Are you sure this is not an indication of 'if you do not like what we
are doing, you are happy to do it differently somewhere else' where it
could have been 'you are happy to join us and make the changes
collectively'.

I am sure they could have benefited from all the development tools and
forums that are already in use by Mozilla.

Did the Inverse guys actually approach Mozilla for help or did they
decide to separate on their without consultation?

I would hate to see the Inverse guys (or anybody else) to start building
their own version of Thunderbird because the needs to the community are
not fully serviced by the current developers.

Marcel

John W. Moore III

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Aug 4, 2009, 7:08:53 AM8/4/09
to T-Bird 3.0 Dev
Simon Paquet wrote:

> The reason for the decision to exclusively concentrate on the upcoming
> Lightning release supporting TB3 was not any kind of malintent or the
> disregard for user feedback, but the lack of resources to support 0.9
> *and* work on a Lightning release for TB3.

It is important to note here that Lightning is _not_ the only Extension
to begin focusing primarily on Tb3. With the change of API in Tb3 it
takes twice the effort & time to develop for both Builds. In fact, this
API change may cause the 'loss' of many popular Extensions as their
Developers either struggle to adapt or give up updating.

> Because once TB3 is out (and I'm sure it will be out this year) people
> will upgrade their installations like hell, because TB3 in its current
> state is already way better than TB2.

Whoa! "Way better" may be a bit misleading. At this point Tb3 is
'coming along' but I don't feel it is quite time for grandiose
statements declaring Tb3 to be the greatest thing since sliced bread &
the pop-top can. :)

> Lightning is by far the most popular TB
> extension around.

Huh?!?? =-O Surely You jest; Enigmail claims this honor.
Calendaring/Scheduling Applications abound but only Enigmail seamlessly
incorporates GnuPG message encryption into Thunderbird. :-D

JOHN ;)
Timestamp: Tuesday 04 Aug 2009, 07:08 --400 (Eastern Daylight Time)

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John W. Moore III

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Aug 4, 2009, 7:11:45 AM8/4/09
to T-Bird 3.0 Dev
Marcel Berteler wrote:

> I would hate to see the Inverse guys (or anybody else) to start building
> their own version of Thunderbird because the needs to the community are
> not fully serviced by the current developers.

In case You aren't aware of it, Spicebird is already a 'competing' Project.

JOHN ;)
Timestamp: Tuesday 04 Aug 2009, 07:11 --400 (Eastern Daylight Time)

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Mark Banner

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Aug 4, 2009, 7:16:05 AM8/4/09
to
On 04/08/2009 12:08, John W. Moore III wrote:
> Simon Paquet wrote:
>
>> The reason for the decision to exclusively concentrate on the upcoming
>> Lightning release supporting TB3 was not any kind of malintent or the
>> disregard for user feedback, but the lack of resources to support 0.9
>> *and* work on a Lightning release for TB3.
>
> It is important to note here that Lightning is _not_ the only Extension
> to begin focusing primarily on Tb3. With the change of API in Tb3 it
> takes twice the effort& time to develop for both Builds. In fact, this

> API change may cause the 'loss' of many popular Extensions as their
> Developers either struggle to adapt or give up updating.

That is true, however we are also trying to help TB 3 extension
developers with increased documentation and improving extension "hooks"
to make an extension developer's life easier.

Standard8

Max Merbald

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Aug 4, 2009, 8:36:43 AM8/4/09
to dev-apps-t...@lists.mozilla.org
Hi there,

I read that long text about some of the allegedly superfluous functions
on TB 3.

About the search funktion - why does it have to be implemented right
away, wouldn't it be better to provide it as an add-on for people who
need it?

And the way you can chose how to see the header in TB2 is perfectly all
right. There are the rare occasions when you need to have a look at the
complete header but that doesn't happen very often.

With all this stuff something else that has long been proposed has slid
totally out of focus - the inclusion of Lightning into TB so that TB is
a full-fledged PIM. That's more important than far-fetched search
options which only a few users will need in the end.

Max


Robert Kaiser

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Aug 4, 2009, 9:00:44 AM8/4/09
to
JoeS wrote:
> Constructive criticism is not negative.
> My guess is that we lost that Hendrix poster as a TB user.
> Without alternate message views (like F11, or the compact header solution),
> and with the proliferation of small screen netbooks, I'm suggesting we
> may loose more.

You can always point those people to SeaMonkey, which of course is not
just a mail client, but which is keeping the compact header and button
on the top toolbar.

just to make things clear, I don't suggest that SeaMonkey is "better"
than Thunderbird in any way, but as it's obvious that Thunderbird is
doing changes to seek out a different (and possibly larger) audience,
SeaMonkey may be an option for those who liked the older style better
and don't want to follow those changes but still keep a Mozilla-based
mail client.

Robert Kaiser

Simon Paquet

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Aug 4, 2009, 9:04:03 AM8/4/09
to
John W. Moore III wrote on 04. Aug 2009:

>> Lightning is by far the most popular TB extension around.
>
> Huh?!?? =-O Surely You jest; Enigmail claims this honor.

Last I looked we had roughly four times as many daily downloads and
roughly seven to eight times as many active daily users.

See https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/statistics/addon/71
and https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/statistics/addon/2313

Cya

Simon Paquet

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Aug 6, 2009, 4:56:53 AM8/6/09
to
Marcel Berteler wrote on 04. Aug 2009:

>> The Lightning developers have clearly recognized the need for
>> updates to the 0.9 release, which is why they gave their blessing
>> to Inverse and have actively recognized and promoted them on their
>> blog.
>
> Not sure what you imply by 'gave their blessing'.

Well, the Inverse folks asked us and we gave them our approval to
further maintain the 0.9 series.

> Why where the Inverse developers not invited to contribute to a
> Mozilla Lightning 0.9.5 release so all people using 0.9 where
> automatically updated?

Because every release has a significant cost in terms of effort and
time involvement. Our team is already very small and doing additional
releases of the 0.9 series would have meant abandoning work on the
upcoming 1.0 release.

This was a trade-off that we felt was not justified.

> Are you sure this is not an indication of 'if you do not like what
> we are doing, you are happy to do it differently somewhere else'
> where it could have been 'you are happy to join us and make the
> changes collectively'.

Yes, I'm sure. We are in regular contact with the Inverse folks and
they are happy with our current agreement. So happy in fact, that
they are actively contributing fixes to our next release.

> Did the Inverse guys actually approach Mozilla for help or did they
> decide to separate on their without consultation?

They decided to separate *with* consultation as outlined above.

Cya

Philip Chee

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Aug 6, 2009, 11:42:36 AM8/6/09
to
On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 10:56:53 +0200, Simon Paquet wrote:
> Marcel Berteler wrote on 04. Aug 2009:

>> Why where the Inverse developers not invited to contribute to a
>> Mozilla Lightning 0.9.5 release so all people using 0.9 where
>> automatically updated?
>
> Because every release has a significant cost in terms of effort and
> time involvement. Our team is already very small and doing additional
> releases of the 0.9 series would have meant abandoning work on the
> upcoming 1.0 release.
>
> This was a trade-off that we felt was not justified.

They are doing their own releases off the 0.9 branch. So why can't they
do the driving for in tree releases of 0.9.5+ using the current mozilla
{org|messaging} infrastructure? At the same time, the existing Calendar
team can continue to focus on the upcoming 1.0.

For example Mozilla Org|Com is doing the Thunderbird 2.0.x releases
without distracting the Mozilla Messaging team from working on
Thunderbird 3.0.

Phil

--
Philip Chee <phi...@aleytys.pc.my>, <phili...@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.

JoeS

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Aug 6, 2009, 9:21:34 PM8/6/09
to
On 8/2/2009 9:27 PM, JoeS wrote:
> *New message reader UI*

There is now an extension at mozdev. This works well for me.
http://compactheader.mozdev.org/index.html

Simon Paquet

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Aug 7, 2009, 5:08:21 AM8/7/09
to
Philip Chee wrote on 06. Aug 2009:

> They are doing their own releases off the 0.9 branch. So why can't
> they do the driving for in tree releases of 0.9.5+ using the current
> mozilla {org|messaging} infrastructure? At the same time, the
> existing Calendar team can continue to focus on the upcoming 1.0.

Because as I said, this would involve work from parties other than
Inverse.

Peter Lairo

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Aug 8, 2009, 1:47:45 PM8/8/09
to
On 07.08.2009 3:21, JoeS wrote:
> On 8/2/2009 9:27 PM, JoeS wrote:
>> *New message reader UI*
>
> There is now an extension at mozdev. This works well for me.
> http://compactheader.mozdev.org/index.html

Thank you! That extension removes the useless and annoying buttons from
the header and re-enables the compact header view (although I do wish
the Subject were on a separate row - for longer subjects; but at least
the sender's name is moved more to the right now).

:-) :-) :-D :-) :-)

<rant>

PS. Judging from the patronizing and unwavering rhetoric so far, I'm
pretty sure we will be stuck with the misplaced header buttons in
Thunderbird from now on. :-( I'm even willing to wager on it...

PPS. I just lost an easy convert to Thunderbird (my sister) because
Thunderbird still cannot write to the Mac address book
(https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=391057). But I guess
global search and misplaced buttons is something most users want so much
more than integration into their OS. Who doesn't enjoy having to
maintain multiple address books for e-mail, labels printing, contacts
management, envelope printing, etc.?

</rant>

Wayne Mery

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Aug 8, 2009, 3:11:55 PM8/8/09
to
On 8/8/2009 1:47 PM, Peter Lairo wrote:
> On 07.08.2009 3:21, JoeS wrote:
>> On 8/2/2009 9:27 PM, JoeS wrote:
>>> *New message reader UI*
>>
>> There is now an extension at mozdev. This works well for me.
>> http://compactheader.mozdev.org/index.html
>
> Thank you! That extension removes the useless and annoying buttons from
> the header and re-enables the compact header view (although I do wish
> the Subject were on a separate row - for longer subjects; but at least
> the sender's name is moved more to the right now).
>
> :-) :-) :-D :-) :-)
>
> <rant>
>
> PS. Judging from the patronizing and unwavering rhetoric so far, I'm
> pretty sure we will be stuck with the misplaced header buttons in
> Thunderbird from now on. :-( I'm even willing to wager on it...
>
> PPS. I just lost an easy convert to Thunderbird (my sister) because
> Thunderbird still cannot write to the Mac address book
> (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=391057). But I guess
> global search and misplaced buttons is something most users want so much
> more than integration into their OS. Who doesn't enjoy having to
> maintain multiple address books for e-mail, labels printing, contacts
> management, envelope printing, etc.?
>
> </rant>

this rant is most unwelcome in a developer group. and, as a long time
watcher of thunderbird, I'm sure you are aware that thunderbird and it's
many predecessors have never claimed nor aspired to be a contact manager
- though a) some aspects of that may change in tb3.next and b) the
extension infrastructure improvements going into TB3 will certainly help
anyone wishing to build better contact management through extensions. I
would welcome such an extension.

Peter Lairo

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Aug 8, 2009, 3:31:24 PM8/8/09
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On 08.08.2009 21:11, Wayne Mery wrote:
> thunderbird and it's
> many predecessors have never claimed nor aspired to be a contact manager
> - though a) some aspects of that may change in tb3.next and b) the
> extension infrastructure improvements going into TB3 will certainly help
> anyone wishing to build better contact management through extensions. I
> would welcome such an extension.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=391057 is not about
"contact management" at all. It's about allowing users to have to manage
only *one* address book, and not being forced to maintain multiple
address books. Data redundancy is highly user un-friendly.

BTW: I do hope that Thunderbird does eventually add more "contact
management" features. Lightning integration per default, and decent
birthday & anniversary management being the most urgent.

Wayne Mery

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Aug 8, 2009, 7:43:00 PM8/8/09
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On 8/3/2009 11:28 PM, John W. Moore III wrote:
> Dan wrote:
>
>> And then the new header pane. Again, why do we need to have a big
>> ugly space hogging header, when I don't recall anyone complaining
>> about the old one.
>
> This really is an obnoxious view. With Tb2 I could choose 'Normal',
> 'Extended Normal' or 'Full'. Now I am confronted with unnecessary
> information for 95% of every Email I Open. :(

Use cases welcome at
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Compact_Message_Header:Use_Cases


>> Finally, there is all of the energy being devoted to the new GLODA
>> search system. It seems to be the driver for many of the unwanted UI
>> changes

iirc there were several factors. gloda was but one. (unsure it was even
the major factor)


> yet I'm not sure how useful or wanted this even is.

As is the case for many a new proposed/controversial feature - until one
tries it.


> Since 98% of all My Emails are encrypted [and stored that way] message
> Search is useless to Me. The code required for this bloats Tb3,
> particularly for those of Us who will never use it.

not a new issue (bug 188988 and bug 336628). But not a particularly
compelling argument to deprive others of good search capability.


> The other
> presumption that irks Me is that too much focus is being placed on using
> Thunderbird as a News Reader. I'd wager that the vast majority of
> T-Bird Users are simply looking for an efficient, fast MUA. Maybe
> 'Search' and 'Reader' functions could be optional installations using
> the 'Custom' radio button during install? This way those of Us who have
> no use for these 'features' could bypass them. :-\

If you actually look at the bugs being touched you will find your
concern is misplaced. My observation of following news (and gazillion
other) bugs in the past couple years is almost no manpower goes to news
bugs (not a complaint mind you). And I suspect zero work done by paid
mozillamessaging crew except reviews. But what news fixes have come are
most welcome.


>> For new users the "out of box" experience has to be
>> good. Perhaps I'm just a pessimist, but I don't think the current
>> builds are pleasant to use at all on XP, unless you go through the
>> hassle of the work-arounds.
>
> Even workarounds are Hit or Miss until One figures out just which
> necessary Extension/Add-On can be successfully 'Force Install'.

Hm, I've got only one workaround for my trunk builds - installed
CompactHeader extension today, even works with my littlebird theme.

I'm not sure what the general topic of extensions has to do with the
current topic, but I haven't hit an extension that I want to (and do)
run that doesn't work on trunk or the extension developer wasn't already
working on upgrading it after I pinged them. Unless you're an
extension-holic I don't foresee problems.


> a Forum where Beta
> Users could share Tips 'n Tricks regarding what Extensions, workarounds
> and solutions work.

http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewforum.php?f=29

Peter Lairo

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Aug 8, 2009, 9:26:17 PM8/8/09
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On 09.08.2009 1:43, Wayne Mery wrote:
> On 8/3/2009 11:28 PM, John W. Moore III wrote:
> Use cases welcome at
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Compact_Message_Header:Use_Cases

I've spent a lot of my limited time weeks ago to provide a large number
of the use-cases at that page. I have yet to hear any response on those
use-cases or any indication that those pushing the header buttons /
single (large) header are re-considering anything. I'd like to think the
use-cases are doing some good (and not just keeping opponents busy), but
have yet to see any evidence of it.

>>> Finally, there is all of the energy being devoted to the new GLODA
>>> search system. It seems to be the driver for many of the unwanted UI
>>> changes
>
> iirc there were several factors. gloda was but one. (unsure it was even
> the major factor)

The only other being having the UI closer to its "context". It sounds
good in theory, but, in reality, there are too many significant
drawbacks that outweigh the theoretical (and at best: minor) advantage.

> > yet I'm not sure how useful or wanted this even is.
>
> As is the case for many a new proposed/controversial feature - until one
> tries it.

Most of us are already aware of that (We're early adopters after all. We
love "new". I dread thinking about the normal users desperately
searching for the UI.). I hope you will consider that many new proposed
/ controversial features remain bad, even after trying them.

Gervase Markham

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Aug 10, 2009, 7:22:24 AM8/10/09
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On 03/08/09 08:51, Alan Lord (News) wrote:
> I have stuck a screenshot in imagebin:
>
> http://imagebin.ca/view/Wzq44Tj.html

My take-aways from that are that it needs to be possible to disable the
tab bar, and that the message header is still far too big and messy.

It would be great to turn off the toolbar entirely, but you can't
because the QuickSearch is on it, and that's very useful.

It would be nice if it were possible to crank the UI font size down a notch.

But also, that a "twin bar" layout for Ubuntu isn't the most appropriate
one for a netbook of that screen size.

Gerv

Wayne Mery

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Aug 10, 2009, 11:53:00 AM8/10/09
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On 8/10/2009 7:22 AM, Gervase Markham wrote:
> On 03/08/09 08:51, Alan Lord (News) wrote:
>> I have stuck a screenshot in imagebin:
>>
>> http://imagebin.ca/view/Wzq44Tj.html
>
> My take-aways from that are that it needs to be possible to disable the
> tab bar, and that the message header is still far too big and messy.
>
> It would be great to turn off the toolbar entirely, but you can't
> because the QuickSearch is on it, and that's very useful.

good observation. And you can - yahoo! I had forgotten this is possible,
as in firefox.

I literally never use the icons of the toolbar, I only use the search
and views. So I am glad to put stuff like search tools on the menu bar
i.e. bug 249985. Another 1/2 inch of screen real estate gained.

Michiel van Leeuwen

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Aug 10, 2009, 1:32:59 PM8/10/09
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On 8/3/09 9:51, Alan Lord (News) wrote:
> http://imagebin.ca/view/Wzq44Tj.html

When I look at it, my conclusion is not that steps back should be made.
The problem is lack of vertical space. Well, then move the thread pane
to the left of the message content, and make it more vertical (two lines
per email, etc). Screens are quite often widescreen (especially on
laptops and netbooks), so use that.
It does mean that there is no real space left for the calendar pane. I
don't think that's a huge problem. After all, it's a netbook with a
small screen. You can't expect everything to fit on it.

Michiel

Wayne Mery

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Aug 10, 2009, 2:34:29 PM8/10/09
to
On 8/10/2009 11:53 AM, Wayne Mery wrote:
> On 8/10/2009 7:22 AM, Gervase Markham wrote:
>> On 03/08/09 08:51, Alan Lord (News) wrote:
>>> I have stuck a screenshot in imagebin:
>>>
>>> http://imagebin.ca/view/Wzq44Tj.html
>>
>> My take-aways from that are that it needs to be possible to disable the
>> tab bar, and that the message header is still far too big and messy.
>>
>> It would be great to turn off the toolbar entirely, but you can't
>> because the QuickSearch is on it, and that's very useful.
>
> good observation. And you can - yahoo! I had forgotten this is possible

[in my excitement I forgot to say ...]

via customize just drag from the toolbar or customize box to the menu
bar. then uncheck view>toolbars>mail toolbar

Alan Lord (News)

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Aug 10, 2009, 3:48:05 PM8/10/09
to

I disagree :-)

If the header of the message wasn't taking up approx 120px (about 20% of
the entire height of the screen), and was instead more like the 30px or
so of the small header as it was able to be in earlier versions of TB3,
then it would be just fine.

Alan

Michiel van Leeuwen

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Aug 10, 2009, 4:33:21 PM8/10/09
to
On 8/10/09 21:48, Alan Lord (News) wrote:
> If the header of the message wasn't taking up approx 120px (about 20% of
> the entire height of the screen), and was instead more like the 30px or
> so of the small header as it was able to be in earlier versions of TB3,
> then it would be just fine.

The problem is not that the header is taking too much space, the problem
is that there is not enough room for the message content. I see two
solutions: 1: make the header smaller or 2: move the thread pane. I
think 2 is better, because it uses the widescreen nature of most
netbooks. Why do you think solution 1 is better?

Michiel

Russell East

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Aug 10, 2009, 5:14:20 PM8/10/09
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Would it be possible for Alan Lord to post screenshots of the other
layouts on his netbook? Might give an idea if option 1 makes sense.

Peter Lairo

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Aug 10, 2009, 5:23:26 PM8/10/09
to
On 10.08.2009 22:33, Michiel van Leeuwen wrote:
> 1: make the header smaller or 2: move the thread pane. I
> think 2 is better, because it uses the widescreen nature of most
> netbooks. Why do you think solution 1 is better?

Because in the messages list pane (the top pane) you cannot see hardly
any of the subject line, not to mention all the relevant columns, in the
"Vertical View" layout, which, quite frankly, sucks. And fixing the
"Vertical View" layout would presumably take much more effort than
reducing the header size and/or re-implementing the compact header view.

Ron K.

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Aug 10, 2009, 7:15:37 PM8/10/09
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Gervase Markham on 8/10/2009 7:22 AM, keyboarded a reply:

Suggest exploring the UI a bit and see if Waynes' use of the Menu Bar
ability to support small tool buttons and low height widgets optimizes the
chrome better for the way You use Tb.

--
Ron K.
Who is General Failure, and why is he searching my HDD?
Kernel Restore reported Major Error used BSOD to msg the enemy!

Alan Lord (News)

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Aug 11, 2009, 3:34:43 AM8/11/09
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On 10/08/09 22:14, Russell East wrote:
<snip />

>
> Would it be possible for Alan Lord to post screenshots of the other
> layouts on his netbook? Might give an idea if option 1 makes sense.
>

Good idea Russell.

I will try and get round to it today sometime.

Al


Gervase Markham

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Aug 11, 2009, 6:28:04 AM8/11/09
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On 10/08/09 19:04, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
> The Ubuntu Netbook Remix (and other netbook variants of Linux) does make
> use of vertical space in a smarter way.
> http://gadgets.boingboing.net/remixbrowse.png

That is smarter, until you have two text files open and can't tell the
difference. But I guess you get used to not using the button bar as a
window finding mechanism.

Gerv

Siddharth Agarwal

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Aug 11, 2009, 2:41:27 PM8/11/09
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I don't think that's going to be feasible until
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=441414 is fixed and we have
multiline rows.

Alan Lord (News)

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Aug 14, 2009, 6:28:26 AM8/14/09
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On 10/08/09 22:14, Russell East wrote:
<snip />
> Would it be possible for Alan Lord to post screenshots of the other
> layouts on his netbook? Might give an idea if option 1 makes sense.

Hi Russell (and the list).

I've taken a few various screenshots of the TB3 layouts running on my
netbook and made a blog post about it.

From the various layouts, the header really does look ridiculously
large. It is about 23% of the *total* height of a typical netbook display...

http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/08/14/thunderbird-3-on-a-netbook/

HTH

Al


Wayne Mery

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Aug 14, 2009, 7:58:15 AM8/14/09
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Nicely done.

Russell East

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Aug 14, 2009, 5:36:46 PM8/14/09
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Yep, nice work on that. I guess it comes down to whether or not the TB
team wish to support such smaller screen sizes - maybe as a lower limit
there should be TB on iPhone? :-) I would vote yes, because this
seems to be a growth area, and TB looks frustratingly close to being
good for netbooks.

Btw I don't use a netbook, and I can't contribute to open-source, but
I've been using SunOS mailtool / Netscape Communicator / SeaMonkey /
TBird on several platforms for quite some time. I see them all as a
logical progression, and the best part of that is, I don't have to
export my mail files into some other format - I keep them forever and
search them occasionally. The UIs have been pretty good by-and-large,
so keep at it - I'm a big fan!

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