First of all, let me assure you one thing your various blog postings
provoked: An outcry by many Thunderbird users, about a program they love
and use! When subtracting the "Google Factor" in all the comments posted
I could clearly see the level of surprise (including me) and the
question about "what's wrong with Thunderbird"? Maybe that adoption is
slow, even so it works so well for me? Or that the community surrounding
it is small? Or that online web apps are the future? The majority went
to look for reasons elsewhere (Google), since....well, Thunderbird does
what it's supposed to do!?
Mitchell's and Scott's postings were perhaps misunderstood, but it was
clear that nobody wants to miss Thunderbird! Most wanted the current
commitment to Thunderbird remain as it is. I suspect this reflects about
a certain level of satisfaction about this application and what it
offers for most current users! This is certainly how I feel about it and
my personal wish list is small! Take this as a compliment for your work!
Mitchell answered
(http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/mitchell/archives/2007/07/thunderbird_and_the_mozilla_mi.html)
my questions (https://blog.startcom.org/?p=28), which I also posted in
comments to her blog. She explained the "Call for Action" and raised a
few questions herself about which she expects to get answers from the
community. That's the first reason why I'm here, the second trying to
understand more about it by myself.
Looking for clues, I found the road map
(http://www.mozilla.org/projects/thunderbird/roadmap.html) pretty
outdated, lacking vision...The same is true about the postings on the
blogs. No real plan, no vision and no defined goals, but the need to
make changes. This was also reflected in Mitchell's reply titled
"Thunderbird and the Mozilla Mission" somewhat. Questions like on what
to focus, how to gain a bigger community, creating excitement...and so
I'm asking, what is that Mozilla (the organization), Mitchell, Scott,
David and most important the many users want?
What made Scott and David propose organizational changes? Do you have a
vision and goals which you can't achieve in its current form? What is
your agenda? What is the goal of Mozilla? Reduce costs, create revenue,
create a higher market share? None of your posts really explain that,
except that there seems to be a problem and you want Thunderbird to grow
and flourish...(in contradiction to Mitchell's statement "We are
convinced that our current focus - delivering the web, mostly through
browsing and related services - is the correct priority.")
If there is a plan, then perhaps explain it to us. If there isn't one,
than I'll be glad to help and work on one, being it by analyzing,
researching and discussing current problems, suggestions and by finding
ideas and new focus. I'd be able to help create the recommendations and
reports needed to move forward. I apologize upfront if this is the field
of somebody else or isn't welcome, but judging from the lack of
(published) goals and clear road map, this is perhaps what's needed now!
So even my field of interest is usually elsewhere, I'll be glad to
contribute some of my time for this. Please advice...
--
Regards
Signer: Eddy Nigg, StartCom Ltd.
Jabber: star...@startcom.org
Phone: +1.213.341.0390
> If there is a plan, then perhaps explain it to us. If there isn't one,
> than I'll be glad to help and work on one, being it by analyzing,
> researching and discussing current problems, suggestions and by finding
> ideas and new focus. I'd be able to help create the recommendations and
> reports needed to move forward.
This is almost exactly my own position on the topic. I'd be glad to
join!
So far there have been many ideas/suggestions regarding the new
vision.
Including
The two wikis (
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Talk:Thunderbird:Future_of_Thunderbird
http://wiki.mozilla.org/MailNews_Talk:Future_of_Mail )
The posts on Scott MacGregor's blog (like http://scott-macgregor.org/blog/?p=4#comment-123
)
and the ongoing d...@openoffice.org discussion.
Basically they summarize to specific "big ideas":
- Integrating multiple forms of online & offline communication,
including IM, retroshare and others. Making Thunderbird the interface
to disparate services.
- Adding more improved addresses and calendering.
- Better support for corporate needs to compete with the Outlook
+Exchange duo.
I think these could be fine starting points for a new plan. And I'd
like to add my own suggestion of integrating knowledge management
features (ex: automatic message filtering using Baysean
classification, better search and tagging...etc)
Also, I'd like to ask if this is the final place for discussing the
roadmap or if we should move to the dev@openoffice list as schmidtm524
suggested :)
regards,
Mohamed Samy
Mohamed Samy wrote:
> I think these could be fine starting points for a new plan. And I'd
> like to add my own suggestion of integrating knowledge management
> features (ex: automatic message filtering using Baysean
> classification, better search and tagging...etc)
>
I think that interesting information was posted on the various blogs,
wikis etc. My position is, that in my opinion TB lacks a clear vision,
road map and plan. How can one know what would be good for TB
(generally) if one doesn't know in which direction it should go? At
least it's been very unclear for me. Therefore decisions have to be
made, in which direction TB should go. Once this is clear, a decision
about which organizational changes should be performed will be much
easier...Currently it's more like shooting from the hip...
> Also, I'd like to ask if this is the final place for discussing the
> roadmap or if we should move to the dev@openoffice list as schmidtm524
> suggested :)
Anybody is free to fork Thunderbird or other Mozilla code. However I'm
here as a part of the Mozilla community and I guess that will stay that
way ;-)
> I think that interesting information was posted on the various blogs,
> wikis etc. My position is, that in my opinion TB lacks a clear vision,
> road map and plan. How can one know what would be good for TB
> (generally) if one doesn't know in which direction it should go? At
> least it's been very unclear for me. Therefore decisions have to be
> made, in which direction TB should go
I agree. Part of the criteria for picking direction is the type of
user thunderbird should best target.
Is it the corporate user or individual ? casual user or the mega
communicator? Blackberry addicts? A usage model that spans more than
one of those?
I believe thinking about this could be useful when selecting a
direction for the project.
My own needs are inclined towards the "professional communicator"
persona..the developer/manager/writer who uses mail to organize his/
her work and life. Of course, I don't insist on specifically
targeting that model, but it tends to influence my goals for TB.
> Anybody is free to fork Thunderbird or other Mozilla code. However I'm
> here as a part of the Mozilla community and I guess that will stay that
> way ;-)
>
This is what I think too, however at some time in the future I'd like
to have integration with lots of major software and tools, including
OOO & others.
Mohamed Samy wrote:
>> Therefore decisions have to be
>> made, in which direction TB should go
>>
>
> I agree. Part of the criteria for picking direction is the type of
> user thunderbird should best target.
> Is it the corporate user or individual ? casual user or the mega
> communicator? Blackberry addicts? A usage model that spans more than
> one of those?
>
Most likely...TB for mobiles aka minimo is just another one perhaps,
support for SMS including. But from judging from the many posts I read,
the corporate enterprise is on target...
> I believe thinking about this could be useful when selecting a
> direction for the project.
> My own needs are inclined towards the "professional communicator"
> persona..the developer/manager/writer who uses mail to organize his/
> her work and life.
Right! It's less the "Flock for Flickr" type and hype what we need
perhaps, but solid support to get some work done efficiently. That's
also where a market exists...
>> Anybody is free to fork Thunderbird or other Mozilla code. However I'm
>> here as a part of the Mozilla community and I guess that will stay that
>> way ;-)
>>
>>
> This is what I think too, however at some time in the future I'd like
> to have integration with lots of major software and tools, including
> OOO & others.
When thinking about it, I guess that's just by executing another
application. Personally I don't think it has to be tied into
openoffice.org but obviously if one uses openoffice than they just might
complete each other. That's about the only connection I see between the
two...
Afterwards I'll compile a report based on your and my findings which can
help all of Mozilla to come to a decision. I'd suggest to deliver this
report to the management of MoCo and MoFo. The report shouldn't be
biased and currently I want to see the actual results of such a report
before even thinking about any recommendation. Who knows, if in the end
we don't come to similar conclusions as Mitchell?
Anyone willing to help - step forward ;-)
I am going to jump in here with some comments from my perspective as a
"Personal User" who has been a volunteer tester and doing User-2-User
support for years. At the beginning of the Tb project it already was a
solid POP3 mail and basic NNTP reader application. We were told it was
an experiment to test development of an application with the new XUL
language. In that respect I think Tb is very successful. When Tb began
development it inherited a lot of bugs from the suite, some that
continue to plague user acceptance. To get some of the old problems
cleared up, Tb is going to need more freedom to declare its needs. The
seven year old simple composer has got to be modernized to be a CSS and
XML compliant "HTML" markup generator. This is very important if the
target market is determined to be Commercial users. At the same time it
will draw a lot of "Personal Users" who are firmly seated in the OE camp
because of it simple ease of generating stationary.
I believe Tb does have "Platform" potential drawn from the same source
as Fx. That is the Gecko backend which has shown great flexibility to
power applications. Currently there are two projects related to Tb that
need support because they fit with a Tb Platform model. The Sunbird
Calendar and the Tb/Lightning calendar integration projects have a
better fit with Tb than Fx as a platform. Calendar support would
improve usability for corporate environments.
However, Tb needs more to fulfill it's platform potential. While Tb has
an address book, it falls short of it's "Platform" potential by not
being integrated with Sunbird, or capable of being launched
independently from the desktop. Currently I use the CardFile applet
from Windows 3.1 as a free standing address book because of it's high
level of security. I have rejected the Windows Address Book application
that is inter operable with OE, Office, etc. because it has been
exploited too often in the past.
Some responders have declared that addition of server less messaging
such as AOL AIM, etc. as a fit with Tb. Netscape was doing just that
with Navigator 6 & 7, just as the old Netscape Corp. added AIM to
Communicator 4.x. I would endorse this as an add-on for those needing
the functionality.
Next action I favor is stripping the RSS function out. I believe that
fits far better with the Fx platform and reduces code management for Tb
thereby resourcing the features that fit the Tb "Platform" model.
--
Ron K.
Don't be a fonted, it's just type casting
> Next action I favor is stripping the RSS function out. I believe that
> fits far better with the Fx platform and reduces code management for Tb
> thereby resourcing the features that fit the Tb "Platform" model.
I agreed with everything you wrote except that. Apart from the
outstanding 'rss duplication' bug, I *love* the way thunderbird handles
RSS. Thunderbird is my "Push" client - anything that gets 'pushed' to
be, be it email, rss feeds or newsgroups, I view with it. A Browser is a
'pull' client, and RSS doesn't belong there (IMO).
When I gave the RSS feature a check out I found it to be very
inefficient compared to having a live bookmark on my Fx personal
toolbar. Now it is possible that the feed I set up, Gervase Markham's
blog, may have been a poor test choice. I disliked having to dig into
the folder pane to open the RSS folder to see what was available. At
the time I thought the available extensions filled the feature gap. I
did not see a need for it to be mainlined and shipped to every one.
Perhaps the tab concept proposed for Tb could deal with this by putting
the RSS into it's own tab.
If I only had one or two feeds I wanted to keep track of, then any feed
reader is irrelevant. I have about 50 feeds, organised into folders. I
use the 'Additional Folder View' extension to keep a list of unread
folders all the time - since I only want to view a site's feed when
there's new content this means I'm notified of new articles without
having to open any folders to see what's available. Having all new
unread 'push' items viewable in the one location (my unread folders
view) is the key why TB is my one-stop push client.
Hi David,
thanks for opening the discussion here too.
You and Scott and the contributing Community need to discuss, to get
TB moved on.
Personally I think this time relation was ok to get a quality approved
TB 2.0.0.5 out.
But for the actual situation and to fulfill the needs to get TB pushed
within the next few months under a watched environment by Mozialla, I
suggest to define this as a wrong percentage. You are paid to much, to
answer community questions on XUL.
Any new application gets someday interest and many wishes, many not
needed features and
bugs are found. But to find more users, new features need to be
added.. now: soon and quick and dirty done.
So please, you both need to code and not to discuss or manage the
community, mailinglists or financial things.
- coding for new features: 80%
- bug fixing: 15 %
- Non coding-activities: 5 %
If you both focus on that for the next 5 months, we get a nice
christmas present, TB 2.6 with instant messaging. 230 Million Skype
users... and we need that messenger market as well for TB. (not Skype
and AOl, as they are serverbased).
>> I'm looking forward to contributing to the Thunderbird project. :)
> That's great! Usually a good way to start is to find a bug or little
> feature you want to add and work on that.
Think it would be useful, if it is declared, how to enhance the GUI of
Thunderbird, to get new tabs and Im and so on into it and to invest on
the new interface.
Here giving coding help may be useful, especially how to relate the
retroshare core to Thunderbird.
Can we agree on the retroshare IM protocol to be added?
Would like to get a conclusion and commitment here as one point of the roadmap.
Sameplace.cc offers all the other and could be bundled to the
installer if wished.
See the mail towards the suggestion of a PGP Adressbook as a Friendslist.
Ad eddy has started to code
http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/thunderbird/nightly/latest-trunk/
maybe we can get soon the new gui (tabs) and added rs-core in?
Then discussing the individual features & Functions and the more
suggested roadmap containments how they interact...
Mike.
The licensing of retroshare is not acceptable for Mozilla code.
Mozilla shouldn't include any P2P functionality by default.
The second cent is really just my personal opinion, but across the
board, the legal implications of relaying other peoples data without
knowing that you do, and knowing which data that is, is large. I would
be highly suspicious about the implications in Germany, at least, other
legal systems may be better or worse, the German one is sure getting
worse, and directly and on purpose targets systems like retroshare.
I'm all good with having functionality like that in extensions, don't
get me wrong, but as default functionality, hell no.
Axel
PS: the percentages just made me giggle.
Axel Hecht wrote:
> My 2cts:
>
> The licensing of retroshare is not acceptable for Mozilla code.
>
> Mozilla shouldn't include any P2P functionality by default.
>
> The second cent is really just my personal opinion, but across the
> board, the legal implications of relaying other peoples data without
> knowing that you do, and knowing which data that is, is large. I would
> be highly suspicious about the implications in Germany, at least, other
> legal systems may be better or worse, the German one is sure getting
> worse, and directly and on purpose targets systems like retroshare.
>
> I'm all good with having functionality like that in extensions, don't
> get me wrong, but as default functionality, hell no.
>
> Axel
>
> PS: the percentages just made me giggle.
>
>
> Michael Schmidt wrote:
Retroshare is GPL, the XPGP is a modified Open SSL and causes maybe a
discussion.
The License of PGPME I dunno atm, is to proove. anyone?
> Mozilla shouldn't include any P2P functionality by default.
there is no P2P in. Only a DHT to discover the IP adress of the buddy
in the next online session. If you do not like this easy service, you
can disable it and "@"-email in every session your IP adress to all
your buddies. Or use a stable IP and Dyndns was in and could be
reactivated.
So there is no data forwarding or something, it is only the bootstrap
mechanism to get updated Ip adresses of the guid-number of your
friend.
So where is the problem? There is nothing about p2p in it, Email is
peer-to-peer as well (over a mailhost).
Mike.
> Right! Therefore I suggest we start working on the various information
> and ideas posted to the various blogs, wikis and here. Perhaps each of
> us take a segment, for example the blog of Mitchell, the blog of Scott,
> the Wiki etc...and compile a list of feature requests, ideas, possible
> targets and revenue models.
>
> Anyone willing to help - step forward ;-)
Have you, or anyone else started with this? I could take the wikis and
this discussion group and summarize the various ideas.
I'll do my best starting from today.
Speaking of ideas, there have been a lot of suggestions on what exacly
to add to the basic email capabilities of TB. Thinking about the
"platform" aspect of TB, we could possibly do a lot of stuff as add-
ins and focus on making TB a strong host for those add-ins.
Basically two types of add-ins would be created: user add-ins and
system add-ins. The system add-ins would provide support for whatever
protocols that interest the user, whether it's mail, chat,
RetroShare,RSS,iCalendar or whatever. The user add-ins would provide
ways the user does his/her work, it could provide search,
visualization, real time notifiers or anyting the user needs.
All this would be backed by a database (mozStorage?), XUL+Javascript
GUI,and strong API's. this would be "The platform".
just an idea I wanted to toss around.
Mohamed
Mohamed Samy wrote:
>
> Have you, or anyone else started with this? I could take the wikis and
> this discussion group and summarize the various ideas.
> I'll do my best starting from today.
>
Great! All the Mozilla wiki comments are for you. Can you sumarize in
short references and send it to me?
> Speaking of ideas, there have been a lot of suggestions on what exacly
> to add to the basic email capabilities of TB. Thinking about the
> "platform" aspect of TB, we could possibly do a lot of stuff as add-
> ins and focus on making TB a strong host for those add-ins.
>
Which doesn't require anything special even today. However integration
of certain features require perhaps special attention, specially what
the UI concerns.
> Basically two types of add-ins would be created: user add-ins and
> system add-ins. The system add-ins would provide support for whatever
> protocols that interest the user, whether it's mail, chat,
> RetroShare,RSS,iCalendar or whatever. The user add-ins would provide
> ways the user does his/her work, it could provide search,
> visualization, real time notifiers or anyting the user needs.
I guess that once we'll have a clear view on which direction TB should
go, this will be answered by itself. I suggest TBs road map is not about
extensions (since they exist today in that or other form) but what its
default capabilities should be and what it will offer to the
individual/corporation.
I am another proponent of the "Platform" model. I have already outlined
my views on LDAP as a method to share address data between Gecko based
applications and applets. The iCalendar idea is already in the works in
two forms. Sunbird a stand alone calendar application running on Gecko,
and the Thunderbird Lightning project that is integrating the Sunbird
core code into Thunderbird. Thunderbird does have RSS support built in
and it could use a fresh review for enhancements.
As for Chat, there is the Chatzilla IRC client that works with Firefox.
That would be a good candidate for the system add-in concept. It has a
solid code base built to run on Gecko in either a Fx tab or separate
window. Another area of possibility is protocol support for streaming
protocols for podcasts. This comes to mind from a couple of RSS feeds I
used to have in Fx on another system. The feed I remember was Mozilla
oriented and had a podcast option available.
Scott MacGregor floated an interesting idea to capitalize on the new Tag
feature. He described it as a Tag Cloud. If you have visited the
Flicker photo site you would have seen how they use a tag cloud. Only
here for Tb it could be a way to organize mail messages.
Right now Tb needs eyes reading comments where ever they get posted,
then feeding summaries back to this group.
I think that the concept of finding out the right APIs to create
extensions for 'insert your favorite' is exactly the way to go.
One thing that we have for Firefox now, and not for Thunderbird, too, is
FUEL. I'd call the Thunderbird part THULE, 'thunderbird utility library
for extension developers' or so. Or, with pictures, your safe place in
rough seas, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Air_Base. For those of us
crossing the Atlantic by plane on a regular basis :-).
I remember back in the days when we were setting up Mozilla Europe and I
was looking for a way to send out mails to the press. And ended up on
http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/mailnews/compose/public/nsIMsgSend.idl.
I'll open up a separate post on MDC.
Axel
> Great! All the Mozilla wiki comments are for you. Can you sumarize in
> short references and send it to me?
Will do! I'll try to send it by tomorrow or so if everything goes
well (I'm going to RSI therapy now and may have trouble typing in the
immediate future).
> I guess that once we'll have a clear view on which direction TB should
> go, this will be answered by itself. I suggest TBs road map is not about
> extensions (since they exist today in that or other form) but what its
> default capabilities should be and what it will offer to the
> individual/corporation.
I was thinking of going beyond the normal add-ins and change TB to
make it support not only mail-type capabilities but to be able to
support any type of communication oriented application, now or in the
future( and of course, the most important applications that fit with
TB's decided direction would be already built in).
True the current architecture is capable of much of that already, but
I wanted to suggest more strategic focus on this area, as a small
example by adding a real database instead of the current mailbox
format..etc
By the way, I'm happy that the ideas of tabs and "tag cloud" have been
put on the table. When I was thinking about the design of TB I wanted
them too :)
Tags in particular play a big role in my imagined "ideal Thunderbird"
concept, as part of an overall system that helps the user organize all
his/her messages and information.
regards,
Mohamed
- David
I hope we can get something useful together within the next few days.
You've missed the point. p2p is direct communication between computers,
email isn't. p2p runs a lot more risks than email does.
Standard8
Yes, I have an account at wiki.mozilla.org where Scott MacGregor has
opened some Wiki articles. I know one of them that I commented on is
relevant to our fact finding.
That topic is on improving the add-on installation method. Any other
guidance for when I begin digging in the Wiki?
Ron K. wrote:
>
> Yes, I have an account at wiki.mozilla.org where Scott MacGregor has
> opened some Wiki articles. I know one of them that I commented on is
> relevant to our fact finding.
> That topic is on improving the add-on installation method. Any other
> guidance for when I begin digging in the Wiki?
>
What we want as a first step is to gather all the information posted to
the various places in a summarized form. It will help us to analyze what
people had to say (minus the Google rants) and hopefully give us
direction for Thunderbird. Next we'll compile a report and hopefully
some recommendations, which might include organizational changes and
what else would be required for TB. As Mitchell said in her Call for
Action and successive postings, that there are funds, there might be
ways, we need a vision and please convince me! ;-)
Perhaps ping Mohamed about the wiki entries you found, since he took the
wikis already. Maybe you want to summarize postings made to Scott's
blog? There are other blogs as well which need attention?
--
For this change in focus to occur I submit TB needs a bigger, broader
formal volunteer/support structure (perhaps of the sort FF is getting)
to step in and do the things David has been doing. And more volunteers
of course. And someone to manage how we get there from here.
Until then, I don't disagree with David's focus thus far. Because if
volunteers, triagers, etc don't get the support, mentoring, etc that
David has been doing they will walk away. I know I would. I did that
with Firefox.
Wayne
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/User:Sheppy:Thunderbird_documentation_list
is one of the types of things needed to offload David and Scott.
Unfortunately, it has no updates since Oct 2006.
Wayne I jumped over to your link and gasped. The reaction was two
fold. First for the visible lack of content. Then for the stark
realization that most of the sections will need a subject matter
specialist (read - software writer). There are only two sections,
history and goals, that I would be competent to work on. I see I need
to make an assessment of what this old retired Army Sargent from an
administrative oriented occupation can contribute with the many hours of
time I have available.
From the licensing perspective, it would have to be tri licensed like
the rest of the code (http://www.mozilla.org/MPL/)
Without any connection to that, I think Michael made a few good
contributions for ideas and I still have some mails of him in my Inbox
which I intend to follow up at a later opportunity (because much of its
content is premature for now).
--
Regards
Signer: Eddy Nigg, StartCom Ltd.
Jabber: star...@startcom.org
Phone: +1.213.341.0390
I have read the post of Mitchell and some of the replies. I did not
really follow the discussion here,however skimming though it it seems to
me that a lot of focus is being plaid on features. It seems to me that
first one should establish a vision of what Thunderbird should do in the
market (while riding piggyback on Firefox).
1) emailing from home:
Users are more and more inclined to use online email clients and social
networking. However, some of these emails are also checked on clients
(such as Thunderbird). How to synchronize the mails (storage).
As far as news group reading goes: how many people use this feature if
they do not use an email client, or how many (average) users like to
read them in Firefox. I note this not as a feature discussion, but to
probe an outlook for the future. How important is this feature for
online users/social networkers (eg myspace, facebook, hyves etc...)
2) emailing from work:
Well email clients are more used a work, but what about licensing and
packages? Is Thunderbird up to snuff?
More importantly for the future of Thunderbird: The trend of emailing on
the work floor is to merge emails into work flow models. HP and IBM are
also working on applications for this. How can Thunderbird adapt to be
more integrated in project planning, evaluation, and archiving of
results. What about mobile phones?
Once again synchronizing of emails over sever workstations, home, and
mobile so to have access to all emails, newsgroups (read here internal
project groups of companies), todo lists and project archives seems to
be more important in the future than a P2P or VoiP stand alone email
client...
Anyway, sorry to lean into this topic, but I just wanted to generate
some discussion about the future of Thunderbird. If you know where you
want to go (in lets say 5 years), then maybe it is easier to figure out
were to house the beast ;o)
(oh btw I like thunderbird and use it everyday (but only at work!)
Kind regards,
marco (aka upnorth)
www.spreadfirefox.com
I agree with you specially on your last section, that a clear path must
be established in order to know where to go...Features and thoughts
about adoption (they are somewhat interrelated), potential revenue
models etc are important details too. Please view a report we
established based on the discussions here: https://blog.startcom.org/?p=32
--
Hello everyone,
coming back from vacation I tried to get track with the Thunderbird -
Discussion about Action
but it seems this is a dead end??????????
Can anyone help to find the latest status of the discussion? Are there
any further actions going on??
Günter
gNeandr wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> coming back from vacation I tried to get track with the Thunderbird -
> Discussion about Action
> but it seems this is a dead end??????????
>
> Can anyone help to find the latest status of the discussion? Are there
> any further actions going on??
--
Regards
Signer: Eddy Nigg, StartCom Ltd. <http://www.startcom.org>
Jabber: star...@startcom.org <xmpp:star...@startcom.org>
Blog: Join the Revolution! <http://blog.startcom.org>
Phone: +1.213.341.0390