tb-enterprise mailing list
Wayne Mery
mozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird]
tb-enterprise is a newly created mailing list for the purpose, as stated
on https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/tb-enterprise, "to discuss
issues related to deployment and configuration of Thunderbird in
enterprise environments."
It is hoped that this focused mailing list will spawn a _strong and
vibrant_ community that provides mutual support for everyday tasks based
on first-hand experience, and that it will be a venue that leads to
better tools, documentation, options, and functionality for Thunderbird
in the enterprise.
We've had good luck with the structure of participation used in the
tb-planning mailing lists, so we've chosen something similar but not
identical here. In particular it is expected that most discussion,
support and knowledge will be led by and come from practitioners in the
field. And in that spirit, for the list to be as productive and
supportive as possible for both newbies and experienced alike, it is
important that participants treat each other with the utmost respect and
courtesy. https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/tb-enterprise contains
the charter, the rules, and details of how to subscribe.
Interested community members are encouraged to join and to spread the
word to colleagues with similar needs and interests. Additional
references and information about Thunderbird in the enterprise can be
found at https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/Enterprise. You are
strongly encouraged to add to and improve that document, and the
documents linked from it.
Wayne
--
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Testing
http://www.spreadthunderbird.com/aff/165/
Jens Müller
> tb-enterprise is a newly created mailing list for the purpose, as stated
> on https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/tb-enterprise, "to discuss
> issues related to deployment and configuration of Thunderbird in
> enterprise environments."
"tb-enterprise is a newly created mailing list for the purpose, as
stated on https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/tb-enterprise, "to
discuss issues related to deployment and configuration of Thunderbird in
enterprise environments." "
And again this bullshit. You have your own NNTP server - why are news
lists not mirrored there by default?
Jens
Dan Mosedale
The reasoning here is the same as the reasoning used in the creation of
tb-planning, and has already been discussed to death on this list:
<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird/browse_thread/thread/c93279b983926636/dde8480c12f03d44?lnk=gst&q=planning#dde8480c12f03d44>.
Dan
Philip Chee
What is the name of the newsgroup?
Thanks.
Phil
--
Philip Chee <phi...@aleytys.pc.my>, <phili...@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Justin Wood (Callek)
Dan,
I really have to disagree that tb-enterprise belongs in mail ONLY vs a
newsgroup as well, given its wider target audience. The Mozilla STATS
that gerv did recently do suggest that the VAST majority of people who
participate in ANY mozilla discussions prefer to post via newsgroups.
[That is even after its stripped of SPAM]
That is not to say that e-mail lists are obsolete by his numbers either,
its just far more likely someone will use the newsgroups as their
primary source of communication with us.
For the tb-planning I disagreed as well, but can at least sympathize.
but for tb-enterprise I feel the target audience will be adversely
affected by a decision not to also mirror the discussions in the usual
means (Google Groups/News/Mail)
Please reconsider this choice for this group.
--
~Justin Wood (Callek)
Alan Lord (News)
>
> Dan,
>
> I really have to disagree that tb-enterprise belongs in mail ONLY vs a
> newsgroup as well, given its wider target audience. The Mozilla STATS
> that gerv did recently do suggest that the VAST majority of people who
> participate in ANY mozilla discussions prefer to post via newsgroups.
> [That is even after its stripped of SPAM]
>
> That is not to say that e-mail lists are obsolete by his numbers either,
> its just far more likely someone will use the newsgroups as their
> primary source of communication with us.
>
> For the tb-planning I disagreed as well, but can at least sympathize.
> but for tb-enterprise I feel the target audience will be adversely
> affected by a decision not to also mirror the discussions in the usual
> means (Google Groups/News/Mail)
>
> Please reconsider this choice for this group.
+1
I access almost every list I can via News - I *hate* my email account
getting filled with mailling list traffic. gmane and news.mozilla.org
work well.
I for one will not be subscribing to a list with no news feed.
Why try and fix something that isn't broken?
Al
JoeS
While I basically agree that we _should_ use mailnews tools (NNTP) to discuss mailnews issues, you can always dedicate
an "extra" gmail account to the list traffic.
You can also watch the lists with the google rss feed.
http://groups.google.com/group/tb-enterprise/feed/rss_v2_0_msgs.xml
If it becomes pertinent, then subscribe.
Joe
--
JoeS Using TB3
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Thunderbird_3.0_-_New_Features_and_Changes
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Thunderbird/Thunderbird_Binaries
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Breakpad#Using_the_application_to_view_crash_reports
Michael Lefevre
> While I basically agree that we _should_ use mailnews tools (NNTP) to
> discuss mailnews issues, you can always dedicate
> an "extra" gmail account to the list traffic.
> You can also watch the lists with the google rss feed.
> http://groups.google.com/group/tb-enterprise/feed/rss_v2_0_msgs.xml
> If it becomes pertinent, then subscribe.
Having tried it previously, I really wouldn't recommend the RSS feed.
You get only the first half a dozen lines of each post, with no
threading, and the messages appear in delayed batches with no apparent
ordering (I think it's supposed to be by sending time, but it doesn't
always appear to be).
Creating an additional email address (or using an existing address with
some filters) is much better.
Michael
Philip Chee
Using a newsgroup is even better. Why this hatred for something that
works superbly well?
Phil
--
Philip Chee <phi...@aleytys.pc.my>, <phili...@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
[ ]Electric chairs are period furniture: they end a sentence
* TagZilla 0.066.6
Ben Bucksch
> On 08/05/10 04:03, Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:
>>
>> Dan,
>>
>> I really have to disagree that tb-enterprise belongs in mail ONLY vs a
>> newsgroup as well, given its wider target audience. The Mozilla STATS
>> that gerv did recently do suggest that the VAST majority of people who
>> participate in ANY mozilla discussions prefer to post via newsgroups.
>> [That is even after its stripped of SPAM]
>>
>> That is not to say that e-mail lists are obsolete by his numbers either,
>> its just far more likely someone will use the newsgroups as their
>> primary source of communication with us.
>>
>> For the tb-planning I disagreed as well, but can at least sympathize.
>> but for tb-enterprise I feel the target audience will be adversely
>> affected by a decision not to also mirror the discussions in the usual
>> means (Google Groups/News/Mail)
>>
>> Please reconsider this choice for this group.
>
> +1
>
> I access almost every list I can via News - I *hate* my email account
> getting filled with mailling list traffic.
Joshua Cranmer
> On 07/05/10 20:17, Jens Müller wrote:
>> And again this bullshit. You have your own NNTP server - why are news
>> lists not mirrored there by default?
>
> to contain participants who are happy to say that what other people is
> doing is "bullshit"?
I would like to point out that NNTP access is not equivalent with
"unmoderated". Even in Mozilla's setup, there are moderated
newsgroup/mailing list combinations (mozilla.test.multimedia, e.g.).
Dan Mosedale
> I really have to disagree that tb-enterprise belongs in mail ONLY vs a
> newsgroup as well, given its wider target audience. The Mozilla STATS
> that gerv did recently do suggest that the VAST majority of people who
> participate in ANY mozilla discussions prefer to post via newsgroups.
> [That is even after its stripped of SPAM]
>
> That is not to say that e-mail lists are obsolete by his numbers
> either, its just far more likely someone will use the newsgroups as
> their primary source of communication with us.
>
>
>
> For the tb-planning I disagreed as well, but can at least sympathize.
> but for tb-enterprise I feel the target audience will be adversely
> affected by a decision not to also mirror the discussions in the usual
> means (Google Groups/News/Mail)
>
> Please reconsider this choice for this group.
tb-enterprise are somewhat different. That said, it's my current belief
that most of the same reasoning still applies. I don't think it makes
sense to change course until and unless we actually get some operational
data that the problem you're considering is a real one of significant
magnitude.
Dan
Dan Mosedale
> I access almost every list I can via News - I *hate* my email account
> getting filled with mailling list traffic.
> gmane and news.mozilla.org work well.
>
> I for one will not be subscribing to a list with no news feed.
of the above add-on) you decide to reconsider.
> Why try and fix something that isn't broken?
somewhat less obvious (cross-posting lossage, operational costs,
periodic bursts of extra spam, pressure to give higher priority to NNTP
in Thunderbird than makes actual strategic sense, etc.).
Dan
Justin Wood (Callek)
Gerv [recently] conducted operational data among the newsgroups we have
today (which are mirrored in all the methods).
Is there a particular group you consider relevant to the audience we
wish to target here that I can ask him to run his stat script against?
Or is there some other operational data that *can* be gathered that
would assist in making a determination vs your personal preference you
cited elsewhere in this thread?
My feeling is that the newsgroup availability starkly outweighs its
downfalls, especially when having a mailing list as your interface is
FULLY supportable, and usable.
Just having a particular means to an end does not preclude you from
omitting that end from Priorities with regard to TB development.
--
~Justin Wood (Callek)
Wayne Mery
30 people are subscribed, and adding ~8 per day.
So activity on tb-enterprise is commencing.
Lots of potential topics and activities pending.
guanxi
I'm crazy, but I actually prefer using Thunderbird for messaging. :)
Dan Mosedale
> Gerv [recently] conducted operational data among the newsgroups we
> have today (which are mirrored in all the methods).
>
> Is there a particular group you consider relevant to the audience we
> wish to target here that I can ask him to run his stat script against?
>
> Or is there some other operational data that *can* be gathered that
> would assist in making a determination vs your personal preference you
> cited elsewhere in this thread?
>
> My feeling is that the newsgroup availability starkly outweighs its
> downfalls, especially when having a mailing list as your interface is
> FULLY supportable, and usable.
going to bias towards spending even more time collecting data and
tweaking the mental model of reality in the hopes of making a slightly
better decision. Rather, I'm going to bias towards gathering data by
testing the current proposal in reality. If truly necessary, we can
iterate and adjust as appropriate.
Dan
Justin Wood (Callek)
> On 5/10/10 7:32 PM, Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:
>> Gerv [recently] conducted operational data among the newsgroups we
>> have today (which are mirrored in all the methods).
>>
>> Is there a particular group you consider relevant to the audience we
>> wish to target here that I can ask him to run his stat script against?
>>
>> Or is there some other operational data that *can* be gathered that
>> would assist in making a determination vs your personal preference you
>> cited elsewhere in this thread?
>>
>> My feeling is that the newsgroup availability starkly outweighs its
>> downfalls, especially when having a mailing list as your interface is
>> FULLY supportable, and usable.
> I get that you disagree, and that's entirely valid. That said, I'm not
> going to bias towards spending even more time collecting data and
> tweaking the mental model of reality in the hopes of making a slightly
> better decision.
The script that gerv has takes mere moments to collect the data. And it
does represent reality in terms of the USE of the various methods in
relation to one another. [After spam is stripped]
> Rather, I'm going to bias towards gathering data by
> testing the current proposal in reality. If truly necessary, we can
> iterate and adjust as appropriate.
If we are omitting one data point entirely from this testing, what
criteria do you measure the success/failure of this model with? And in
what time frame do you expect to be able to have solid evidence one way
or another without falling back on "Its been like this for so long,
we're not changing" mentality?
--
~Justin Wood (Callek)
Dan Mosedale
>> Rather, I'm going to bias towards gathering data by
>> testing the current proposal in reality. If truly necessary, we can
>> iterate and adjust as appropriate.
>
> If we are omitting one data point entirely from this testing, what
> criteria do you measure the success/failure of this model with?
community and discussion. This is absolutely subjective, but I believe
it's the only one that matters.
What I was trying to communicate in my previous message is that I think
we in Thunderbird-land (and I very much include myself in this "we"),
often bias towards devoting enormous amounts of energy towards
discussing and analyzing rather than just trying things. I believe I've
already spent too much time on discussing and analyzing this decision
(and I get that you disagree with that). Nonetheless, this will be my
last post on this matter until we have significantly more real-life
experience with tb-enterprise.
Dan
Chris Ilias
> I get that you disagree, and that's entirely valid. That said, I'm not
> going to bias towards spending even more time collecting data and
> tweaking the mental model of reality in the hopes of making a slightly
> better decision. Rather, I'm going to bias towards gathering data by
> testing the current proposal in reality. If truly necessary, we can
> iterate and adjust as appropriate.
Could you explain what "tweaking the mental model of reality" means?
Justin Wood (Callek)
> On 5/12/10 10:08 AM, Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:
>>> Rather, I'm going to bias towards gathering data by
>>> testing the current proposal in reality. If truly necessary, we can
>>> iterate and adjust as appropriate.
>>
>> If we are omitting one data point entirely from this testing, what
>> criteria do you measure the success/failure of this model with?
> Whether we believe tb-enterprise has sufficiently useful ongoing
> community and discussion. This is absolutely subjective, but I believe
> it's the only one that matters.
And do you believe that this goal has a set time limit, or is
"sufficiently useful" endlessly waitable? Also do you feel that a
migration of the "then current" group members to the new format (mail +
news + web) will be a reasonable change, if we don't meet your target?
Or would it be a large barrier?
> What I was trying to communicate in my previous message is that I think
> we in Thunderbird-land (and I very much include myself in this "we"),
> often bias towards devoting enormous amounts of energy towards
> discussing and analyzing rather than just trying things. I believe I've
> already spent too much time on discussing and analyzing this decision
> (and I get that you disagree with that). Nonetheless, this will be my
> last post on this matter until we have significantly more real-life
> experience with tb-enterprise.
I am very sympathetic to the "just try it, don't bikeshed" aspects of
product development, less sympathetic to that method as it relates to
the issue we discuss here.
However I do recognize we are nearing [not AT yet imo] the end of the
back-and-forth discussion as far as relevant pertaining points. And that
the remaining aspects of my points likely won't change your mind (at
least in the short term).
While I respect the aspect of "It is already live, lets see how it goes"
I do feel that in this particular case we should/need to have a set goal
by which to measure the participation usefulness of this single-venue
forum. If "we" determine the usefulness to be ideal even before that set
date, then sure.
Lastly is it worth defining whom (group or individual) will make this
final decision?
--
~Justin Wood (Callek)
Justin Wood (Callek)
at 1:08PM EDT [about 5 hours ago]) sounded as if I was asserting that
the current groups on news.mozilla.org where we DO the 3-way access are
representative of the tb-enterprise target.
I never meant to assert or suggest that, and was initially (and implied
continuing) to ask if there _was_ a group that the TB team felt was
representative that the stat script could be run against, then it might
have presented non-subjective Numbers to rely on in terms of this
discussion.
From brief IRC chat, I do not necessarily believe there IS any current
group with a similar goal, so we could just as easily be in completely
untreaded water with regard to the target users/admins.
--
~Justin Wood (Callek)
Dan Mosedale
before we actually do things. Which is to say, we construct a mental
model of what it is that we're trying to effect, then we measure,
analyze, and speculate. Tweaking the mental model was my way of
referring to the act of spending extra time to gather more data in the
hopes of making the model better in order to increase the chances of
making a better decision. This is, generally speaking, fairly hard to
get right, because it's hard to construct a mental model that's complete
and correct enough to actually predict the future. Eventually, after
large amounts of discussion, we actually try something.
For some decisions (eg ones that have exceedingly high costs to try and
are hard to iterate on after the fact), this is a good way to move forward.
However, in software, it's often much much lower effort and much faster
to simply try something, see if it works well enough, and then iterate
if necessary.
Firefox and Thunderbird were started specifically with a bias away from
extended discussion in favor of trying and iterating, because, in
general, that mode of working produces better software. This was in
contrast to the way the old suite was developed. I think we've
(Thunderbird in particular) fallen away from that mode over time, and I
also believe it's significantly hurting us because it's a _very_ slow
mode of getting things done. I'm trying to bias decisions that I'm
responsible for towards the try-and-iterate methodology.
Dan