the press has again "released" before us

[Benoit Jacob]

Hi,

Once again, the intertubes are full of press about a Firefox release
that hasn't happened yet. My understanding is that this happens as we
put the files on FTP a couple days ahead of the release to help
mirrors. In the future, could we do it in a way that doesn't lend
itself so easily to misinterpretation? Maybe something with a big
warning in the URL itself, like
ftp://mozilla.org/OMG_NOT_RELEASED_YET/firefox-9.0 ?

http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/9.0/ has
been updated to show an error message,

Thanks for your interest in Firefox 9
We aren't quite finished qualifying Firefox 9 yet.
When we're all done with Firefox 9 it will show up on Firefox.com.

The problems is 1) it's too late as the press has already happened, 2)
the above message can also be misinterpreted as e.g. technical issues
on our side, it doesn't make it clear that the release never was
scheduled to happen until later today.

Cheers,
Benoit

[JarrE]

Maybe (I don't think it would help, but use the opportunity to rant) it
would help if you started announce new releases, so that users didn't
have to check ftp to see which is newest?

mozilla.announce could be used for this...
Newest (announced) Firefox at the moment is (I believe) 6.0.1...

Regards/
JarrE

[Benoit Jacob]

2011/12/20 Benoit Jacob <jacob.b...@gmail.com>:

Apparently, other mozilla.org URLs allowing to download Firefox 9
still exist, like
http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/products/download.html?product=firefox-9.0&os=win&lang=en-US
so we are sending self-contradicting messages.

Benoit

[Christian Legnitto]

Your understanding is a bit off fwiw. We already wait until the last minute for most things and we're working on new ways to prevent this.

Trust me, we're all over it.

> _______________________________________________
> dev-apps-firefox mailing list
> dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-firefox

[Christian Legnitto]

I intend to write a longer reply with more details once the the source migration and release today are out the door btw.

[Asa Dotzler]

mozilla.announce has a readership of near zero. we do announce our
releases here http://blog.mozilla.com/

- A

[David H. Lipman]

From: "Asa Dotzler" <a...@mozilla.org>

That's bull. I read that news group often.

There is a LACK OF POSTING announcements that ius the problem!

For example, there were no announcements about Firefox versions; 3.6.24 and 3.6.25


--
Dave
Multi-AV Scanning Tool - http://multi-av.thespykiller.co.uk
http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp

[Christian Legnitto]

On Dec 20, 2011, at 3:29 PM, David H. Lipman wrote:

> From: "Asa Dotzler" <a...@mozilla.org>
>
>> On 12/20/2011 5:20 AM, JarrE wrote:
>>>
>>> Maybe (I don't think it would help, but use the opportunity to rant) it
>>> would help if you started announce new releases, so that users didn't
>>> have to check ftp to see which is newest?
>>>
>>> mozilla.announce could be used for this...
>>> Newest (announced) Firefox at the moment is (I believe) 6.0.1...
>>>
>>> Regards/
>>> JarrE
>>
>> mozilla.announce has a readership of near zero. we do announce our releases here http://blog.mozilla.com/
>>
>> - A
>
> That's bull. I read that news group often.
>
> There is a LACK OF POSTING announcements that ius the problem!
>
> For example, there were no announcements about Firefox versions; 3.6.24 and 3.6.25

I usually post releases. I did a bad hand off to Alex (my backup) while I was in Berlin and it didn't get posted.

[Asa Dotzler]

On 12/20/2011 3:29 PM, David H. Lipman wrote:
> From: "Asa Dotzler"<a...@mozilla.org>
>
>> On 12/20/2011 5:20 AM, JarrE wrote:
>>>
>>> Maybe (I don't think it would help, but use the opportunity to rant) it
>>> would help if you started announce new releases, so that users didn't
>>> have to check ftp to see which is newest?
>>>
>>> mozilla.announce could be used for this...
>>> Newest (announced) Firefox at the moment is (I believe) 6.0.1...
>>>
>>> Regards/
>>> JarrE
>>
>> mozilla.announce has a readership of near zero. we do announce our releases here http://blog.mozilla.com/
>>
>> - A
>
> That's bull. I read that news group often.

That you read it does not mean it's well read. Our newsgroups are
project resources, not consumer resources. "Users" are not and should
not be expected to read newsgroups.

- A

[Jay Garcia]

On 20.12.2011 09:05, Christian Legnitto wrote:

Mine just upgraded from FF 8 via Help Check For Updates. Went smooth,
howerver a larger screen came up with:

"Your Firefox is out of date.For security reasons, we recommend
upgrading to the latest and greatest version."

But further down it says:

"Thanks for upgrading! You’re now ready to enjoy the very latest in
speed, flexibility and security."

Is this gonna confuse users and bombard me with questions? :-(


--
Jay Garcia - www.ufaq.org - Netscape - Firefox - SeaMonkey - Thunderbird
Mozilla Contribute Coordinator Team - www.mozilla.org/contribute/
Mozilla Mozillian Member - www.mozillians.org
Mozilla Contributor Member - www.mozilla.org/credits/

[Jay Garcia]

More ...

Clicked on the link "latest and greatest version" and it brought me to a
download for 8.0.1. So what's up with this?

[Christian Legnitto]

No, we're in the process of pushing. Web content hasn't cycled yet to remove that message. Congratulations on being an "early" adopter :-)

Let us know if you see any issues with Firefox 9!

Thanks,
Christian

[Christian Legnitto]

See previous email form me, same issue.

[David H. Lipman]

Are you joking ?
Are you for real ?

'Cause that is a load of horse manure. I can go to GMane and see numerous groups for THAT
VERY PURPOSE like; gmane.network.wireshark.announce

Otherwise - REMOVE the new group!

[Barry van Oudtshoorn]

On 21/12/11 08:33, David H. Lipman wrote:
> From: "Asa Dotzler"<a...@mozilla.org>
>
>> On 12/20/2011 3:29 PM, David H. Lipman wrote:
>>> From: "Asa Dotzler"<a...@mozilla.org>
>>>
>>>> On 12/20/2011 5:20 AM, JarrE wrote:
>>>>> Maybe (I don't think it would help, but use the opportunity to rant) it
>>>>> would help if you started announce new releases, so that users didn't
>>>>> have to check ftp to see which is newest?
>>>>>
>>>>> mozilla.announce could be used for this...
>>>>> Newest (announced) Firefox at the moment is (I believe) 6.0.1...
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards/
>>>>> JarrE
>>>> mozilla.announce has a readership of near zero. we do announce our releases here http://blog.mozilla.com/
>>>>
>>>> - A
>>> That's bull. I read that news group often.
>>
>> That you read it does not mean it's well read. Our newsgroups are project resources, not
>> consumer resources. "Users" are not and should not be expected to read newsgroups.
>>
> Are you joking ?
> Are you for real ?
>
> 'Cause that is a load of horse manure. I can go to GMane and see numerous groups for THAT
> VERY PURPOSE like; gmane.network.wireshark.announce
>
> Otherwise - REMOVE the new group!
>

Of course, wireshark is completely unrelated to Firefox, and so may use
their newsgroups for entirely different purposes and audiences. It's
probably worthwhile ensuring that mozilla.announce is either used or
removed, but bear in mind that Wireshark (for example) and Firefox have
(overlapping) but very different user bases. I think you'd find that the
vast majority of Firefox users would be more comfortable reading
announcements on a website (i.e. blog.mozilla.com) than in a newsgroup.

--
Barry van Oudtshoorn
www.barryvan.com.au

Not sent from my Apple ?Phone.

[David H. Lipman]

From: "Barry van Oudtshoorn" <bvanoud...@gmail.com>

I could come up with a whole bunch of examples. The concept is of a standard practice of
communication in support of a software product.

I just looked at "http://blog.mozilla.com/" and saw a lot of CRAP. That's nothing but a
marketing and hype page.

I expect to see product related "announcements" in a news group with "announce" in its
name.

[Asa Dotzler]

On 12/20/2011 5:02 PM, David H. Lipman wrote:
> From: "Barry van Oudtshoorn"<bvanoud...@gmail.com>
>
>> On 21/12/11 08:33, David H. Lipman wrote:
>>> From: "Asa Dotzler"<a...@mozilla.org>
>>>
>>>> On 12/20/2011 3:29 PM, David H. Lipman wrote:
>>>>> From: "Asa Dotzler"<a...@mozilla.org>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/20/2011 5:20 AM, JarrE wrote:
>>>>>>> Maybe (I don't think it would help, but use the opportunity to rant) it
>>>>>>> would help if you started announce new releases, so that users didn't
>>>>>>> have to check ftp to see which is newest?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mozilla.announce could be used for this...
>>>>>>> Newest (announced) Firefox at the moment is (I believe) 6.0.1...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards/
>>>>>>> JarrE
>>>>>> mozilla.announce has a readership of near zero. we do announce our releases here http://blog.mozilla.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - A
>>>>> That's bull. I read that news group often.
>>>>
>>>> That you read it does not mean it's well read. Our newsgroups are project resources,
>>>> not
>>>> consumer resources. "Users" are not and should not be expected to read newsgroups.
>>>>
>>> Are you joking ?
>>> Are you for real ?
>>>
>>> 'Cause that is a load of horse manure. I can go to GMane and see numerous groups for

>>> THAT VERY PURPOSE é‚ke; gmane.netÜCrk.wireshark.aĹBounce

>>>
>>> Otherwise - REMOVE the new group!
>>>
>> Of course, wireshark is completely unrelated to Firefox, and so may use their newsgroups
>> for entirely different purposes and audiences. It's probably worthwhile ensuring that
>> mozilla.announce is either used or removed, but bear in mind that Wireshark (for
>> example) and Firefox have (overlapping) but very different user bases. I think you'd
>> find that the vast majority of Firefox users would be more comfortable reading
>> announcements on a website (i.e. blog.mozilla.com) than in a newsgroup.
>>
>
> I could come up with a whole bunch of examples. The concept is of a standard practice of
> communication in support of a software product.
>
> I just looked at "http://blog.mozilla.com/" and saw a lot of CRAP. That's nothing but a
> marketing and hype page.
>
> I expect to see product related "announcements" in a news group with "announce" in its
> name.
>
>

I understand that is what you expect. I am not challenging you on that.
I am saying that is not what most Firefox users expect. A newsgroup post
will make you and a few other people happy but it will do nothing to
substantially move the needle on letting most Firefox users learn
anything because fewer than 1% of Firefox users have ever used any
newsgroup, much less the mozilla.announce newsgroup.

Again, I'm not challenging you on what you expect. I'm just letting you
know that you are far from representative of Firefox users and your
expectations and their expectations have very little overlap.

- A

- A

[David H. Lipman]

From: "Asa Dotzler" <a...@mozilla.org>

> On 12/20/2011 5:02 PM, David H. Lipman wrote:
>> From: "Barry van Oudtshoorn"<bvanoud...@gmail.com>
>>
>>> On 21/12/11 08:33, David H. Lipman wrote:
>>>> From: "Asa Dotzler"<a...@mozilla.org>
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/20/2011 3:29 PM, David H. Lipman wrote:
>>>>>> From: "Asa Dotzler"<a...@mozilla.org>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/20/2011 5:20 AM, JarrE wrote:
>>>>>>>> Maybe (I don't think it would help, but use the opportunity to rant) it
>>>>>>>> would help if you started announce new releases, so that users didn't
>>>>>>>> have to check ftp to see which is newest?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> mozilla.announce could be used for this...
>>>>>>>> Newest (announced) Firefox at the moment is (I believe) 6.0.1...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards/
>>>>>>>> JarrE
>>>>>>> mozilla.announce has a readership of near zero. we do announce our releases here http://blog.mozilla.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - A
>>>>>> That's bull. I read that news group often.
>>>>>
>>>>> That you read it does not mean it's well read. Our newsgroups are project resources,
>>>>> not
>>>>> consumer resources. "Users" are not and should not be expected to read newsgroups.
>>>>>
>>>> Are you joking ?
>>>> Are you for real ?
>>>>
>>>> 'Cause that is a load of horse manure. I can go to GMane and see numerous groups for

>>>> THAT VERY PURPOSE é‚ke; gmane.netÜCrk.wireshark.aÅBounce

Who said there is only ONE place for such information ?

I letting you know that Mozilla is not following good product support conventions.

And if you believe " Firefox users have ever used any newsgroup, much less the
mozilla.announce " then you might as well remove NNTP support from Thunderbird.
Do you not see the forest through the trees ?

What planet are you on ?

There is a news group called "mozilla.announce" and guess what it is used for,
announcements. It is that simple.
Go ahead add product announcements with all that extraneous crap on
"http://blog.mozilla.com/" but put product announcements in "mozilla.announce" or remove
the group. It is THAT SIMPLE.

[Justin Wood (Callek)]

>>>> THAT VERY PURPOSE é‚ke; gmane.netÜCrk.wireshark.aÅBounce

For what its worth Asa, there are also many who subscribe to that
NEWSGROUP via e-mail...

As well as metrics based on our support newsgroups/lists have time and
again proven heavily weighed in favor of newsgroup postings.

--
~Justin Wood (Callek)

[Alexander Skwar]

Am 21.12.2011 08:40, schrieb Justin Wood (Callek):

> For what its worth Asa, there are also many who subscribe to that
> NEWSGROUP via e-mail...
>
> As well as metrics based on our support newsgroups/lists have time and
> again proven heavily weighed in favor of newsgroup postings.

I actually don't quite get, what's the problem with a newsgroup posting.
I mean, someone has to write an announcement anyway. Would it then be so
hard to also post it in the newsgroup?

Alexander
--
↯ Lifestream (Twitter, Blog, …) ↣ http://sup.skwar.me/ ↯
↯ Chat (Jabber/Google Talk) ↣ a...@skwar.me ; Twitter: @alexs77 ↯

[Michael Lefevre]

On 20/12/2011 23:38, Asa Dotzler wrote:
> On 12/20/2011 3:29 PM, David H. Lipman wrote:
>> From: "Asa Dotzler"<a...@mozilla.org>
>>
>>> On 12/20/2011 5:20 AM, JarrE wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Maybe (I don't think it would help, but use the opportunity to rant) it
>>>> would help if you started announce new releases, so that users didn't
>>>> have to check ftp to see which is newest?
>>>>
>>>> mozilla.announce could be used for this...
>>>> Newest (announced) Firefox at the moment is (I believe) 6.0.1...
>>>>
>>>> Regards/
>>>> JarrE
>>>
>>> mozilla.announce has a readership of near zero. we do announce our
>>> releases here http://blog.mozilla.com/
>>

>> That's bull. I read that news group often.
>
> That you read it does not mean it's well read. Our newsgroups are
> project resources, not consumer resources. "Users" are not and should
> not be expected to read newsgroups.

You didn't say it wasn't well read, you said readership was near zero.
If the number of people working on Firefox is even nearer zero than
that, we might as well give up on it...

I understand you're thinking in terms of proportions of the user base,
but telling people that they are "near zero" was maybe not the best
choice of words.

Anyway, do you actually have any numbers for how many subscribers there
are to blog.mozilla.org versus the newsgroup/email list/google group for
mozilla.announce? I suspect the number for both is "near zero" as a
percentage of Firefox users, but that's not a useful comparison.

Michael

[Gervase Markham]

On 21/12/11 00:33, David H. Lipman wrote:
> Are you joking ?
> Are you for real ?
>
> 'Cause that is a load of horse manure.

David,

This sort of abuse is not acceptable in Mozilla groups; we would
appreciate it if you would change your tone.

As to your point: compared to the number of users we have, and the
number of people we want to know, mozilla.announce is certainly not a
_complete_ communications channel.

One could argue that it should be one of the channels used, and I'm sad
to see recent Firefox releases not announced there since September.
clegnitto seems to be on the case there.

Gerv

[WLS]

Maybe you should change the steps of your Release Checklist?

• Notify the world - Project lead
  • all -at- mozilla.com (so all staff knows)
  • m.dev.planning newsgroup
  • m.announce newsgroup (all product release announcements are expected here)
  • MDC Devnews
  • Post the Press Release

When you have completed these steps, rinse, repeat. Every month...

Release Checklist

-- 

 Daily | openSUSE 11.4(x86_64) | Gnome 2.32.1 | 1.8GHz CPU | 2GB RAM
 Get openSUSE: http://software.opensuse.org/121/en
 Firefox Support: http://support.mozilla.com
 Profile Manager: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Profile_Manager

[Justin Dolske]

On 12/21/11 5:51 AM, Gervase Markham wrote:
> On 21/12/11 00:33, David H. Lipman wrote:
>> Are you joking ?
>> Are you for real ?
>>
>> 'Cause that is a load of horse manure.
>
> David,
>
> This sort of abuse is not acceptable in Mozilla groups; we would
> appreciate it if you would change your tone.

What Gerv said. It's pretty disappointing that a thread on on an
innocuous topic like this so quickly devolved into angry insults. It's
neither helpful nor welcome.

Justin

[Justin Dolske]

On 12/21/11 6:31 AM, WLS wrote:

>> mozilla.announce has a readership of near zero. we do announce our
>> releases here http://blog.mozilla.com/
>>
>> - A
>
> Maybe you should change the steps of your Release Checklist?
>

> * Notify the world - Project lead

Notification of releases is a red herring.

Modern media is driven by advertising, and their motivation is to
attract readers. Even if it means bending the facts a little to create a
scoop or controversy. And why fact-check or research if doing so would
spoil a juicy article?

In any case, this has happened for every single release as far back as I
can remember. It's a small annoyance. Let's get back to working on the
things that matter.

Justin

[Asa Dotzler]

On 12/21/2011 4:01 AM, Michael Lefevre wrote:

> I understand you're thinking in terms of proportions of the user base,
> but telling people that they are "near zero" was maybe not the best
> choice of words.

I'm thinking about users and not Mozilla contributors.

> Anyway, do you actually have any numbers for how many subscribers there
> are to blog.mozilla.org versus the newsgroup/email list/google group for
> mozilla.announce? I suspect the number for both is "near zero" as a
> percentage of Firefox users, but that's not a useful comparison.

That would be the wrong measure. The measure would be "how many readers
does the entire tech press have (who consistently quote from our blog at
relase time and never quote from our announce newsgroup at release time.)"

I also happen to think it's a good thing that the press follow our blog
where we're actually thinking about crafting messages that regular users
will understand as opposed to our newsgroups which though they are open
to the world are filled with discussions that are easily misunderstood
or taken out of context.

Our newsgroups are for our community. They are the wrong place to
address our end user audience. We should work to keep end users out of
these groups by providing consumer focused information in more
accessible locations. Everyone will be better off.

And I'm not saying this as someone who hasn't been involved in this very
topic. I'm the guy that maintained release announcements in our announce
newsgroup for years and years. That was a long time ago though and we
have far better forums now. I believe that .announce should be used to
share important project-wide announcements and stop trying to be the
location for any end user announcements.

- A

[Justin Wood (Callek)]

Asa Dotzler wrote:
> On 12/21/2011 4:01 AM, Michael Lefevre wrote:
>
>> I understand you're thinking in terms of proportions of the user base,
>> but telling people that they are "near zero" was maybe not the best
>> choice of words.
>
> I'm thinking about users and not Mozilla contributors.
>
>> Anyway, do you actually have any numbers for how many subscribers there
>> are to blog.mozilla.org versus the newsgroup/email list/google group for
>> mozilla.announce? I suspect the number for both is "near zero" as a
>> percentage of Firefox users, but that's not a useful comparison.
>
> That would be the wrong measure. The measure would be "how many readers
> does the entire tech press have (who consistently quote from our blog at
> relase time and never quote from our announce newsgroup at release time.)"

Of course, you ignore the fact that it is really hard to cite urls to
newsgroups or e-mail message from lists, in general.

> I also happen to think it's a good thing that the press follow our blog
> where we're actually thinking about crafting messages that regular users
> will understand as opposed to our newsgroups which though they are open
> to the world are filled with discussions that are easily misunderstood
> or taken out of context.

Not opposed to the idea that press should follow our PR tracked announce
locations.

> Our newsgroups are for our community. They are the wrong place to
> address our end user audience. We should work to keep end users out of
> these groups by providing consumer focused information in more
> accessible locations. Everyone will be better off.

Our newsgroups are *also* available as e-mail lists, and for announce
specifically many do follow it that way. Even those not in our
"community" umbrella, as we usually define it.

> And I'm not saying this as someone who hasn't been involved in this very
> topic. I'm the guy that maintained release announcements in our announce
> newsgroup for years and years. That was a long time ago though and we
> have far better forums now. I believe that .announce should be used to
> share important project-wide announcements and stop trying to be the
> location for any end user announcements.

Of course, I am not opposed to changing the mandate of announce, BUT
until we do, and announce it THERE, we ought to continue sending release
announcements there. And not play "well no-one reads it" [paraphrased]
as an argument against doing that.

It is an important communication venue, we are not properly leveraging
right now. REMEMBER our "Community" is *also* our "USERS" and if they
are felt that they are second-rate. They will no longer be OUR
community, and instead move to devoting their time and energy to our
competitors.

That is something I for one do not want to see happen.

--
~Justin Wood (Callek)