Personally I don't think we should directly integrate security UI and bookmarking UI into the same drop down. But I think it would make sense for them to each have a button in primary UI. Mike Beltzner suggested that larry in the security button could be looking at the favicon, which is used for bookmarking. Of course, similar to using a lock favicon, this could lead to two larrys pointing at each other, each trying to convince you that they are the real larry :)
> On May 26, 12:21 am, Alex Faaborg <faab...@mozilla.com> wrote: >> I've been neglecting the places thread with all the content handling >> discussion going on. Here is a fresh mockup for bookmarking and >> tagging, based on previous discussions. This mockup also introduces >> one click bookmarking (also sometimes called starring, quickmarks).
> I like a lot of the things that Alex is proposing in these mockups, > but if there's going to be a "dropdown" associated with the page icon, > I think there's an opportunity to clarify the source of the page and > the security information.
> My own mockups, heavily influenced by Alex's, are at:
> Alex: did you want these just added directly to the mockups page?
Yeah, this way people can view all of the mockups without having to read the entire discussion thread, and we have a faster way of getting back to them.
> * One-click bookmarking
I like the Flock star, although I think it has a few usability issues (beyond the accessibility issues you raised)
-It isn't at all clear that a second click will produce additional options. A lot of users will expect the second click to clear the star back to the original state. Additionally, a lot of novice users double click everything since they are not sure what targets on their screen are supposed to receive single clicks or double clicks, and double clicking always seems to work. For these people, they will always get the heavy weight interface.
-The interface it produces on the second click is a little more complicated than it needs to be (in particular, I think both the address and description don't need to be there).
Also, I'm not entirely sure if we should switch to using stars for bookmarking. This would be consistent with IE and the Google toolbar, but traditionally Netscape and Firefox have literally had "bookmarks" both in terminology and icon design. For consistency, we may want to keep bookmarks bookmarks. Also, if we visually represent bookmarks as stars (like the Google toolbar) we start mixing metaphors.
> * Bookmark sidebar enhancements
I think we should minimize access to the advanced search functionality in primary UI, but still have some way of getting to it from the sidebar so that the user is able to create saved searches.
I like showing if pages are bookmarked or not when searching history. I'm not sure what specific use cases the "files downloaded from this site" icon enables.
> * Bookmark toolbar enhancements
I like adding a button to the far left of the bookmarks toolbar. Although instead of opening a menu, I think it should display the bookmarks sidebar (similar to IE7 and Safari). I think things like "newest bookmarks", "recently visited bookmarks" and "most visited bookmarks" would make more sense as pre-populated Smart Folders in the bookmarks sidebar. This will both demonstrate what types of things the user can do with smart folders, and put them in control of moving or deleting them if they don't need them (like the pre- populated getting started bookmarks).
Alex Faaborg wrote: > Additionally, a lot of novice users double > click everything since they are not sure what targets on their screen > are supposed to receive single clicks or double clicks, and double > clicking always seems to work. For these people, they will always get > the heavy weight interface.
I keep hearing this argument presented, but I continue to think it's a false one. If the user's underlying OS makes a distinction between single and double clicks (and I believe they all do) then we do no-one any favours by pretending there isn't one in our UI - we are just adding to their confusion. All we do is reduce our UI options. Users who think there isn't one need to be told otherwise, or they'll just end up not being able to work their computers properly.
Obligatory car analogy: a road designer wants to make signs visible and clear, junctions easy to understand, etc. etc. But if the driver doesn't know the difference between left and right, it's not a good idea to make every road completely straight just so they don't have to use the steering wheel.
> I like adding a button to the far left of the bookmarks toolbar. > Although instead of opening a menu, I think it should display the > bookmarks sidebar (similar to IE7 and Safari).
I continue to think the sidebars should appear on the right rather than the left. Much less disruption to the content, and no disconnect between Forward/Back and the content it refers to.
> If the user's underlying OS makes a distinction between > single and double clicks
Right, we could detect a double click to turn the star on, instead of turning the star on and then turning it off again (which wouldn't help anyone). But in this particular case a single click turns the star on, and a double click turns the star on and also produces a dialog box, which is just weird.
-Alex
On Jun 6, 2007, at 2:46 AM, Gervase Markham wrote:
> Alex Faaborg wrote: >> Additionally, a lot of novice users double >> click everything since they are not sure what targets on their screen >> are supposed to receive single clicks or double clicks, and double >> clicking always seems to work. For these people, they will always >> get >> the heavy weight interface.
> I keep hearing this argument presented, but I continue to think it's a > false one. If the user's underlying OS makes a distinction between > single and double clicks (and I believe they all do) then we do no-one > any favours by pretending there isn't one in our UI - we are just > adding > to their confusion. All we do is reduce our UI options. Users who > think > there isn't one need to be told otherwise, or they'll just end up not > being able to work their computers properly.
> Obligatory car analogy: a road designer wants to make signs visible > and > clear, junctions easy to understand, etc. etc. But if the driver > doesn't > know the difference between left and right, it's not a good idea to > make > every road completely straight just so they don't have to use the > steering wheel.
>> I like adding a button to the far left of the bookmarks toolbar. >> Although instead of opening a menu, I think it should display the >> bookmarks sidebar (similar to IE7 and Safari).
> I continue to think the sidebars should appear on the right rather > than > the left. Much less disruption to the content, and no disconnect > between > Forward/Back and the content it refers to.
I didn't mean to suggest that we adopt the Flock system exactly, just that I would very much like for us to have a single-click system for creating a bookmark that doesn't pop up any additional dialogs or buttons or anything (first time perhaps, like Flock does, but with the option to suppress that dialog in the future).
So, instead of popping up the "Page Bookmarked" mini-dialog as in the second part here...
...we would just change the appearance of whatever the bookmarking icon ended up being -- maybe a book changes to a book with a bookmark in it or somesuch. I hadn't really delved into the specifics at this point -- my mockups are meant to be more rough sketches than precisely detailed specs :)
As for metaphors, I've never been a huge fan of the "bookmark" thing since the web is in no way a "book". I understand wanting to maintain consistency so as to not confuse users overmuch, but I don't think we should be afraid of changing that metaphor due to simple tradition.
I also don't find the "one-click star, second-click open dialog" thing to be particularly weird. It did surprise me the first time I did it (as you suggested, I expected the second click to turn the star off), but after doing it once or twice I learned the new behaviour and it became entirely second-hand and comfortable. Are we unable to introduce new interactions like that to users?
> > If the user's underlying OS makes a distinction between > > single and double clicks
> Right, we could detect a double click to turn the star on, instead of
> turning the star on and then turning it off again (which wouldn't > help anyone). But in this particular case a single click turns the > star on, and a double click turns the star on and also produces a > dialog box, which is just weird.
> -Alex
> On Jun 6, 2007, at 2:46 AM, Gervase Markham wrote:
> > Alex Faaborg wrote: > >> Additionally, a lot of novice users double > >> click everything since they are not sure what targets on their > screen > >> are supposed to receive single clicks or double clicks, and double > >> clicking always seems to work. For these people, they will always
> >> get > >> the heavy weight interface.
> > I keep hearing this argument presented, but I continue to think it's > a > > false one. If the user's underlying OS makes a distinction between > > single and double clicks (and I believe they all do) then we do > no-one > > any favours by pretending there isn't one in our UI - we are just > > adding > > to their confusion. All we do is reduce our UI options. Users who > > think > > there isn't one need to be told otherwise, or they'll just end up > not > > being able to work their computers properly.
> > Obligatory car analogy: a road designer wants to make signs visible
> > and > > clear, junctions easy to understand, etc. etc. But if the driver > > doesn't > > know the difference between left and right, it's not a good idea to
> > make > > every road completely straight just so they don't have to use the > > steering wheel.
> >> I like adding a button to the far left of the bookmarks toolbar. > >> Although instead of opening a menu, I think it should display the > >> bookmarks sidebar (similar to IE7 and Safari).
> > I continue to think the sidebars should appear on the right rather
> > than > > the left. Much less disruption to the content, and no disconnect > > between > > Forward/Back and the content it refers to.
On Jun 6, 3:40 am, Alex Faaborg <faab...@mozilla.com> wrote:
> Personally I don't think we should directly integrate security UI and > bookmarking UI into the same drop down. But I think it would make > sense for them to each have a button in primary UI.
I don't see it as "security UI" so much as "useful information to help the user to make an informed decision". Carrying a summary of the security information about a page might help to inform a user as to whether or not they want to carry on with the bookmarking operation.
In my experience people tend to be very trusting of their bookmarks. "I bookmarked it, therefore the site must be okay". If bookmarking is a simple process - perhaps down to one or two clicks - then there's more likelihood of rogue sites slipping into people's bookmarks by mistake and being trusted ever after.
A real-life example is Gmail. They have both an http and an https interface, and depending on what route you take to get to the site, it's possible to get switched away from the secure version without noticing. When adding a bookmark for Gmail I'd like a more obvious indication of which version of the site I'm on.
> Mike Beltzner > suggested that larry in the security button could be looking at the > favicon, which is used for bookmarking. Of course, similar to using > a lock favicon, this could lead to two larrys pointing at each other, > each trying to convince you that they are the real larry :)
After posting my mockups I considered that the favicon would probably be better associated with the bookmark controls than the security information for precisely this reason (though I haven't got round to editing the images yet).
By including the security information in a fixed and consistent location (e.g. at the top of the popup), users should hopefully become accustomed to seeing Larry or a lock icon in the same obvious place. Using an open lock, or a crossed out Larry to denote an absence of security information is also important - the best that an favicon spoofer could hope for then is to end up with two contrary icons, which in itself should raise some alarm bells. Ensuring that Larry, the lock, or any other security icons are significantly bigger than the favicon should also make it harder for that kind of spoofing to have any real effect.
Personally I'd prefer to see the popup not as "security UI" or "bookmarking UI", but as "things to do with the URL UI". Security information would be ever-present, but beyond that I don't see any reason why bookmarking should be more special than blogging, emailing a link, or any other operation that an extension author might want to perform with the URL. Taking it to the extreme means that you can either have lots of separate icons in primary UI, each with a single specific popup, or you keep the additional primary UI to a minimum by allowing the secondary UI to be extended instead.
Mark wrote: > I don't see it as "security UI" so much as "useful information to help > the user to make an informed decision". Carrying a summary of the > security information about a page might help to inform a user as to > whether or not they want to carry on with the bookmarking operation.
> In my experience people tend to be very trusting of their bookmarks. > "I bookmarked it, therefore the site must be okay". If bookmarking is > a simple process - perhaps down to one or two clicks - then there's > more likelihood of rogue sites slipping into people's bookmarks by > mistake and being trusted ever after.
That's possibly true. But how many people get phished on their second or subsequent visit to a site? Once you've been there and trusted it enough to even press the Bookmark button, you've probably lost already. So I don't think this is a worry.
On Jun 8, 10:19 am, Gervase Markham <g...@mozilla.org> wrote:
> Once you've been there and trusted it enough > to even press the Bookmark button, you've probably lost already.
I know what you mean, but it's not that clear cut. If you visit a phishing site and provide some credentials, then yes you've lost long before you reach the bookmark button. But what about if you bookmark the "login" page with the intention of going back later to enter your details? And whilst a malware site might prove to be innocuous when the user's anti-virus is up-to-date, that doesn't mean it's still safe in a month when they've let their subscription lapse.
We know things about the page and about the site, from a security/ authentication/encryption perspective. Things that might influence the user's decision to bookmark or not. I think that we should expose that information to the user before they make that decision.
(Apologies if there are two replies from me - Google seems to have lost my first one)
Note that this iteration includes a few changes to the theme, let's not spend too much time debating those right now, I primarily made the change so that the navigation toolbar didn't have 6 icons in the mockup, but I understand that a lot of people are going to have issues with that. But let's keep this thread about places, and discuss the browser chrome in a separate thread.
Both Flock and the Google toolbar have a star button for bookmarking pages that fills in on the first click, and they both produce a menu or dialog on the second click. I thought more about it, and I am pretty sure that if we did clear the star on the second click, people would regularly become angry because deleting a bookmark needs to be a slightly more involved action, especially if you have gone to a lot of work to organize the bookmark into a folder, and provide tags. So, here is the behavior that I think makes the most sense:
[if star is inactive] Single click or double click on the star: star activates
[if star is active] Single click or double click on the star: display bookmarking dialog with folder and tag options, and a button to delete the bookmark
So in this model a click->pause->click would produce the dialog, or you could just click once directly on the drop down arrow next to the star.
The feedback and alternative mockups people are posting are really helping to refine what we think the places UI is going to look like, great job everyone!
> I didn't mean to suggest that we adopt the Flock system exactly, > just that I would very much like for us to have a single-click > system for creating a bookmark that doesn't pop up any additional > dialogs or buttons or anything (first time perhaps, like Flock > does, but with the option to suppress that dialog in the future).
> So, instead of popping up the "Page Bookmarked" mini-dialog as in > the second part here...
> ...we would just change the appearance of whatever the bookmarking > icon ended up being -- maybe a book changes to a book with a > bookmark in it or somesuch. I hadn't really delved into the > specifics at this point -- my mockups are meant to be more rough > sketches than precisely detailed specs :)
> As for metaphors, I've never been a huge fan of the "bookmark" > thing since the web is in no way a "book". I understand wanting to > maintain consistency so as to not confuse users overmuch, but I > don't think we should be afraid of changing that metaphor due to > simple tradition.
> I also don't find the "one-click star, second-click open dialog" > thing to be particularly weird. It did surprise me the first time > I did it (as you suggested, I expected the second click to turn the > star off), but after doing it once or twice I learned the new > behaviour and it became entirely second-hand and comfortable. Are > we unable to introduce new interactions like that to users?
> ~ deb
> ----- "Alex Faaborg" <faab...@mozilla.com> wrote: >>> If the user's underlying OS makes a distinction between >>> single and double clicks
>> Right, we could detect a double click to turn the star on, instead of
>> turning the star on and then turning it off again (which wouldn't >> help anyone). But in this particular case a single click turns the >> star on, and a double click turns the star on and also produces a >> dialog box, which is just weird.
>> -Alex
>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 2:46 AM, Gervase Markham wrote:
>>> Alex Faaborg wrote: >>>> Additionally, a lot of novice users double >>>> click everything since they are not sure what targets on their >> screen >>>> are supposed to receive single clicks or double clicks, and double >>>> clicking always seems to work. For these people, they will always
>>>> get >>>> the heavy weight interface.
>>> I keep hearing this argument presented, but I continue to think it's >> a >>> false one. If the user's underlying OS makes a distinction between >>> single and double clicks (and I believe they all do) then we do >> no-one >>> any favours by pretending there isn't one in our UI - we are just >>> adding >>> to their confusion. All we do is reduce our UI options. Users who >>> think >>> there isn't one need to be told otherwise, or they'll just end up >> not >>> being able to work their computers properly.
>>> Obligatory car analogy: a road designer wants to make signs visible
>>> and >>> clear, junctions easy to understand, etc. etc. But if the driver >>> doesn't >>> know the difference between left and right, it's not a good idea to
>>> make >>> every road completely straight just so they don't have to use the >>> steering wheel.
>>>> I like adding a button to the far left of the bookmarks toolbar. >>>> Although instead of opening a menu, I think it should display the >>>> bookmarks sidebar (similar to IE7 and Safari).
>>> I continue to think the sidebars should appear on the right rather
>>> than >>> the left. Much less disruption to the content, and no disconnect >>> between >>> Forward/Back and the content it refers to.
> [if star is inactive] > Single click or double click on the star: star activates
Why not make only single-click do it that way and double-click directly going to the bookmarking dialog (just with "Cancel" instead of "Delete")?
I think it would be really good to have a fast option to add a bookmark with options, and click-pause-click is very unintuitive for that.
Still, for people mistakenly double-clicking instead of single-clicking, they would get the same result as with a single click by just clicking OK on the dialog, right?
Yeah, we could do that. Since the star has a drop down arrow you can still get to the dialog with a single click, although the target area is a little bit smaller than the star itself.
> Still, for people mistakenly double-clicking instead of single- > clicking, > they would get the same result as with a single click by just clicking > OK on the dialog, right?
Yeah, expanding the dialog and clicking OK is the same as just clicking the star.
> Alex Faaborg schrieb: >> [if star is inactive] >> Single click or double click on the star: star activates
> Why not make only single-click do it that way and double-click > directly > going to the bookmarking dialog (just with "Cancel" instead of > "Delete")?
> I think it would be really good to have a fast option to add a > bookmark > with options, and click-pause-click is very unintuitive for that.
> Still, for people mistakenly double-clicking instead of single- > clicking, > they would get the same result as with a single click by just clicking > OK on the dialog, right?
When I arrive at a page that is already bookmarked or tagged, does the star change in some way to show that I already have this page in bookmarks or tags?
(That has been one of my gripes - that there has been no way to find out if a page is already in my bookmarks - apart from going into the bookmarks organiser and looking theough them that is - so I just tend to add it again. Even when I add it, the UI does not say if its already there either)
> When I arrive at a page that is already bookmarked or tagged, does > the star > change in some way to show that I already have this page in > bookmarks or > tags?
Yes, similar to Flock and the Google toolbar, the star lights up when you are on pages you have bookmarked. In this mockup, clicking on the down arrow would let you modify existing tags, move the bookmark to a different folder, or delete the bookmark.
> When I arrive at a page that is already bookmarked or tagged, does > the star > change in some way to show that I already have this page in > bookmarks or > tags?
> (That has been one of my gripes - that there has been no way to > find out if > a page is already in my bookmarks - apart from going into the > bookmarks > organiser and looking theough them that is - so I just tend to add > it again. > Even when I add it, the UI does not say if its already there either)
Deb Richardson wrote: > that I would very much like for us to have a single-click system for > creating a bookmark that doesn't pop up any additional dialogs or
Yup, though we need to provide some feedback to complete the action, such that users have answers to the very questions you asked mconnor earlier about "well, if these quickmarks don't actually appear in the menu structure, how do I get 'em back?" as well as the other logical question "hm, I meant to actually create an entry in the menu system for that, how do I do that?"
I think we're getting there, slowly but surely.
The action of "starring" something is becoming more familiar in web and client application UI as a shorthand for "mark as favourite/interesting/noteworthy" and I think we can build on that metaphor. It can be reinforced (as it was in some of your mockups) by always showing that history entry with the same star mark beside it, either in the Location Bar autocomplete, or the history search, or even (if we want to get fancy) when a user hovers over a link to that page in the content area.
> buttons or anything (first time perhaps, like Flock does, but with > the option to suppress that dialog in the future).
How about an overlay (which vanishes after 5s) which tells the user how they can find that thing again. Something like:
"Page marked! You can find it in "Recently marked pages" or by searching in your history."
(this assumes a "Recently marked pages" smartfolder as per your mockups, which I thought was a good idea)
> So, instead of popping up the "Page Bookmarked" mini-dialog as in the > second part here...
> ...we would just change the appearance of whatever the bookmarking > icon ended up being -- maybe a book changes to a book with a bookmark > in it or somesuch. I hadn't really delved into the specifics at this > point -- my mockups are meant to be more rough sketches than > precisely detailed specs :)
I'm not a fan of the button changing state, mostly because I don't think that creates a strong enough relationship to the actual thing that's being quickmarked (which is the site, not the button). Other starring interfaces (iTunes, email applications) always relate the star with the item, and I think that's important for us to do, as well.
> As for metaphors, I've never been a huge fan of the "bookmark" thing > since the web is in no way a "book". I understand wanting to > maintain consistency so as to not confuse users overmuch, but I don't > think we should be afraid of changing that metaphor due to simple > tradition.
FWIW, I don't think the majority of our users even notice that the icon we're using for a bookmark is supposed to look like a bookmark :) Despite being in a Mozilla-heavy crowd, though, and despite the fact that I agree that the web is nothing like a book, I hear that term used ubiquitously when talking about navigating the web with friends, family and strangers. I'm not married to it, though, and anyone who's listened to me rant about my ideas for this will know that I prefer the idea of using terms like "remember", "shortcut", "mark", etc.
> I also don't find the "one-click star, second-click open dialog" > thing to be particularly weird. It did surprise me the first time I > did it (as you suggested, I expected the second click to turn the > star off), but after doing it once or twice I learned the new > behaviour and it became entirely second-hand and comfortable. Are we > unable to introduce new interactions like that to users?
That's a bit of a straw-man there, Deb, since I don't think anyone suggested that we were unable to introduce new interactions. When presenting new primary UI for a common user function, we'll want to make sure that all interactions are as intuitive and discoverable as possible.
New interactions should be introduced when observation leads the designer to believe that someone would be expecting the proposed action to lead to the proposed result, or when care can be taken to illustrate to users how the new interaction works (either in a declarative or emergent fashion).
In this particular case, though, I think the strangeness Alex was describing was that it would be a single button on the toolbar which would act like no other button.
As mentioned, I'm not a fan of it being a toolbar button at all, and would rather see it as a button inside the Location Bar, at which point a singe/double click breakdown as proposed wouldn't feel as strange.
Mark wrote: > I know what you mean, but it's not that clear cut. If you visit a > phishing site and provide some credentials, then yes you've lost long > before you reach the bookmark button. But what about if you bookmark > the "login" page with the intention of going back later to enter your > details?
Under what circumstances would that happen?
This site is supposed to be (e.g.) your bank, right? Now either you have your bank bookmarked already, or you don't. What are the chances that you receive a "Your account is about to be shut down!" email, visit the site in a panic, and then decide that actually, today is a good day to bookmark the site and come back and prevent your account being shut down later?
I really think that the risk of someone accidentally bookmarking a phishing site is low, and it's not a scenario we need to be concerned about.
Any chance of having the different screens as different images, one after the other? This very large, very wide graphic is hard to navigate on my laptop.
> Note that this iteration includes a few changes to the theme, let's not > spend too much time debating those right now, I primarily made the > change so that the navigation toolbar didn't have 6 icons in the mockup, > but I understand that a lot of people are going to have issues with > that. But let's keep this thread about places, and discuss the browser > chrome in a separate thread.
OK. As a meta point, we need to decide some method for making the "consistent across Firefoxes" vs. "consistent across platforms" decision.
When does this thread start?
> Both Flock and the Google toolbar have a star button for bookmarking > pages that fills in on the first click, and they both produce a menu or > dialog on the second click. I thought more about it, and I am pretty > sure that if we did clear the star on the second click, people would > regularly become angry because deleting a bookmark needs to be a > slightly more involved action, especially if you have gone to a lot of > work to organize the bookmark into a folder, and provide tags.
That's an easy one, though. When you remove a bookmark, it doesn't actually throw the associated information away until the end of the session. So if you accidentally click the star, click it again and all is as it was before. Instant undo.
My thoughts on the mockup:
If the user creates a new bookmark using click-pause-click (say), then clicks outside the window, does the bookmark remain? What's the default action? I'm not sure clicking outside the window should dismiss, because it's unambiguous as to what has happened.
We seem to be inventing these hybrid dialog-menu things here. What UI precedents are there for them, if any?
Why is using a star icon to represent bookmarks "mixing metaphors"?
You talk about "reducing data loss when the user meant to click the drop-down". If you think this is a problem, surely the fix is not to change the interaction model, but fix the theme to distinguish between what are actually two separate (albeit related) buttons? This trend for flat buttons which highlight when you mouse over them actually reduces the usability of the buttons IMO - and your note here demonstrates that you recognise that :-) So let's fix it.
> Note that this iteration includes a few changes to the theme, let's > not spend too much time debating those right now, I primarily made > the change so that the navigation toolbar didn't have 6 icons in the > mockup, but I understand that a lot of people are going to have > issues with that. But let's keep this thread about places, and > discuss the browser chrome in a separate thread.
I think that we're unlikely to radically reorganize the toolbars, say, this week, so we're even less likely to make significant experimental changes even later in the cycle. If the UI doesn't work with the existing layout (possibly with _minor_ tweaks) we're not going in the right direction to move forward quickly. I think that moving to consistency with IE7/Safari is overrated by some, I don't think they have better UI overall, so let's base decisions based on the best overall task organization and users' experience.
> Both Flock and the Google toolbar have a star button for bookmarking > pages that fills in on the first click, and they both produce a menu > or dialog on the second click. I thought more about it, and I am > pretty sure that if we did clear the star on the second click, people > would regularly become angry because deleting a bookmark needs to be > a slightly more involved action, especially if you have gone to a lot > of work to organize the bookmark into a folder, and provide tags. > So, here is the behavior that I think makes the most sense:
> [if star is inactive] > Single click or double click on the star: star activates
> [if star is active] > Single click or double click on the star: display bookmarking dialog > with folder and tag options, and a button to delete the bookmark
> So in this model a click->pause->click would produce the dialog, or > you could just click once directly on the drop down arrow next to the > star.
Overall this seems logical, but I don't know if we'd want another menubutton in the primary UI, it feels quite heavy and focused on users who actually care a lot about bookmarking, rather than being a low visual impact feature that's easier and more powerful than Firefox 2, which is why I liked the cascading favicon menu interaction better.
On Jun 11, 9:32 am, Gervase Markham <g...@mozilla.org> wrote:
> Mark wrote: > > I know what you mean, but it's not that clear cut. If you visit a > > phishing site and provide some credentials, then yes you've lost long > > before you reach the bookmark button. But what about if you bookmark > > the "login" page with the intention of going back later to enter your > > details?
> Under what circumstances would that happen?
> This site is supposed to be (e.g.) your bank, right? Now either you have > your bank bookmarked already, or you don't. What are the chances that > you receive a "Your account is about to be shut down!" email, visit the > site in a panic, and then decide that actually, today is a good day to > bookmark the site and come back and prevent your account being shut down > later?
I'm thinking of more subtle phishing schemes than trying to get your bank details directly. I know plenty of people who would quite happily click on a link that says "To celebrate our nth anniversary we're giving away 100 ipod Nanos - just click on this link and log into your Amazon account: www.amazon-competition.com".
> I really think that the risk of someone accidentally bookmarking a > phishing site is low, and it's not a scenario we need to be concerned about.
I agree that the risk is low. This wasn't my primary concern when suggesting the addition of security UI to the proposed bookmarking popup, it was just one possible scenario in which it might help.
More particularly, additional security information would help to draw attention to the fact that I'm absent-mindedly trying to bookmark http://gmail.com instead of https://gmail.com. It would also provide a lightweight UI to simply get an overview of the security information related to the page (as opposed to the heavyweight UI of Page Info, or the so-lightweight-people-miss-it UI of the lock icon).
Finally, as I mentioned, if there's going to be a new popup that is closely associated with the URL, then I don't see why bookmarking is any more deserving of that space than security information - or any of a number of URL-related tasks that extension authors might have in mind. I'd rather see a general "things to do with this URL" popup, with security and bookmarking as standard, but perhaps with the possibility of future expansion.
Of course the whole "Star" approach renders the point largely moot, as the primary means of using it to bookmark a site wouldn't bring up any additional UI anyway.
>> Note that this iteration includes a few changes to the theme, let's >> not spend too much time debating those right now, I primarily made >> the change so that the navigation toolbar didn't have 6 icons in the >> mockup, but I understand that a lot of people are going to have >> issues with that. But let's keep this thread about places, and >> discuss the browser chrome in a separate thread.
> I think that we're unlikely to radically reorganize the toolbars, say, > this week, so we're even less likely to make significant experimental > changes even later in the cycle. If the UI doesn't work with the > existing layout (possibly with _minor_ tweaks) we're not going in the > right direction to move forward quickly. I think that moving to > consistency with IE7/Safari is overrated by some, I don't think they > have better UI overall, so let's base decisions based on the best > overall task organization and users' experience.
I think keeping the Stop and Reload buttons as distinct buttons but moving them between the Location and Search bar would be a nice trade-off.
>>> Note that this iteration includes a few changes to the theme, let's >>> not spend too much time debating those right now, I primarily made >>> the change so that the navigation toolbar didn't have 6 icons in the >>> mockup, but I understand that a lot of people are going to have >>> issues with that. But let's keep this thread about places, and >>> discuss the browser chrome in a separate thread.
>> I think that we're unlikely to radically reorganize the toolbars, >> say, >> this week, so we're even less likely to make significant experimental >> changes even later in the cycle. If the UI doesn't work with the >> existing layout (possibly with _minor_ tweaks) we're not going in the >> right direction to move forward quickly. I think that moving to >> consistency with IE7/Safari is overrated by some, I don't think they >> have better UI overall, so let's base decisions based on the best >> overall task organization and users' experience.
> I think keeping the Stop and Reload buttons as distinct buttons but > moving them between the Location and Search bar would be a nice > trade-off.
Having only followed this on the wiki, and not this thread.
Star button on "right side of inside location bar" as shown in the I5 mockup would not allow it to be customized away, and thus no-pop-up window "feature".
/me is refraining from making other comments as I haven't yet read any of this thread, and don't want to re-state stuff already talked about and answered.
> -Security UI gets the favicon menu > -Star button moved to right side of location bar > -Starred pages moved to "Recently Starred Pages" smart folder
> -Alex
> On Jun 11, 2007, at 4:19 AM, Dão wrote:
>> Mike Connor schrieb:
>>> On 9-Jun-07, at 10:25 PM, Alex Faaborg wrote:
>>>> Note that this iteration includes a few changes to the theme, let's >>>> not spend too much time debating those right now, I primarily made >>>> the change so that the navigation toolbar didn't have 6 icons in the >>>> mockup, but I understand that a lot of people are going to have >>>> issues with that. But let's keep this thread about places, and >>>> discuss the browser chrome in a separate thread.
>>> I think that we're unlikely to radically reorganize the toolbars, say, >>> this week, so we're even less likely to make significant experimental >>> changes even later in the cycle. If the UI doesn't work with the >>> existing layout (possibly with _minor_ tweaks) we're not going in the >>> right direction to move forward quickly. I think that moving to >>> consistency with IE7/Safari is overrated by some, I don't think they >>> have better UI overall, so let's base decisions based on the best >>> overall task organization and users' experience.
>> I think keeping the Stop and Reload buttons as distinct buttons but >> moving them between the Location and Search bar would be a nice >> trade-off.
I'd rather like Ctrl-D do the equivalent of single-clicking on the star. If we are trying to create a system where you just say "Keep track of this for me", and the browser DTRT, then the key combo should reflect that, rather than bringing up the dialog.
What happens when a page is no longer "Recently Starred"? Where does it go?
We are also mixing the "starred pages" and "bookmarks" metaphors at the moment. Starred pages, bookmarks and tags is 3 metaphors - that's at least one (and possibly two) too many.
Should the Delete button be labelled "Unstar" or "Unmark"?
I don't think it needs to be possible to remove the star (thereby avoiding the need to produce a dialog version of the, er, dialog). We don't allow people to customise away the feed icon, and I don't think we allow people to remove the Go button independent of the URL bar. Do we?
> -Security UI gets the favicon menu > -Star button moved to right side of location bar > -Starred pages moved to "Recently Starred Pages" smart folder
* It is not clear to me from this mockup what I would drag to put a page into my personal toolbar.
* Do we really expect that people will use the bookmarks sidebar? I have never used it in my entire life, and I don't see why I'd want to start now: I imagine that all an average user wants is two things:
- quick access to very common pages through quick-click UI; for me this is the bookmarks toolbar
- ability to recall interesting pages through a search interface: this should be the search bar and the browser homepage, which are our traditional and best search interface.
All this focus on the sidebar seems counter-productive... there isn't even a one-click way to open the sidebar, is there? And even if there were, for the common tasks above that's one click too many.
> What happens when a page is no longer "Recently Starred"? Where > does it go?
Firefox will never forget that you starred the page, but the only way to get to the page is to search for it, or click "all starred pages" (the last item in "Recently Starred Pages"), which loads the history sidebar with a filter set to only show starred pages.
> We are also mixing the "starred pages" and "bookmarks" metaphors at > the > moment. Starred pages, bookmarks and tags is 3 metaphors - that's at > least one (and possibly two) too many.
I agree, but if we make stars directly analogous to bookmarks (which we did in iteration 4), the bookmarks menu / sidebar will quickly become inundated with new pages. Or alternatively, users won't star pages because they don't want to make a mess of their menu, or have to go to the extra work of organizing it later.
If users know that starring a page records it in a lightweight way that doesn't clutter their current bookmarks, they are more likely to take advantage of the feature.
> Should the Delete button be labelled "Unstar" or "Unmark"?
If you change the location of the starred page, then you are essentially creating a bookmark. I think it would be better to keep it "delete" as opposed to having the name change depending on what folder the stored page is in.
> I don't think it needs to be possible to remove the star (thereby > avoiding the need to produce a dialog version of the, er, dialog). We > don't allow people to customise away the feed icon, and I don't > think we > allow people to remove the Go button independent of the URL bar. Do > we?
We don't currently allow these things, but I think in general we should enable users to customize as much as they want. If it is too difficult to implement, keeping these things static isn't a big deal.
-Alex
On Jun 12, 2007, at 2:07 AM, Gervase Markham wrote:
>> -Star button moved to right side of location bar
> I'd rather like Ctrl-D do the equivalent of single-clicking on the > star. > If we are trying to create a system where you just say "Keep > track of > this for me", and the browser DTRT, then the key combo should reflect > that, rather than bringing up the dialog.
> What happens when a page is no longer "Recently Starred"? Where > does it go?
> We are also mixing the "starred pages" and "bookmarks" metaphors at > the > moment. Starred pages, bookmarks and tags is 3 metaphors - that's at > least one (and possibly two) too many.
> Should the Delete button be labelled "Unstar" or "Unmark"?
> I don't think it needs to be possible to remove the star (thereby > avoiding the need to produce a dialog version of the, er, dialog). We > don't allow people to customise away the feed icon, and I don't > think we > allow people to remove the Go button independent of the URL bar. Do > we?
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