Key combination to open the developer tools toolbox

[Mike Ratcliffe]

I have used accel,alt + D but the feature is important enough to use 2 keys. We also want to avoid using function keys for Mac friendliness.

[Mike Ratcliffe]

If you don't know what the toolbox is then see:
http://paulrouget.com/e/devtools-toolbox/

[Dao]

What's going to be the difference between the Developer Toolbar
(Shift+F2) and the Developer Tools Toolbox?

[Paul Rouget]

In the Firefox DevTools, we use to have one keybinding per tool.

Now, we are introducing a way to start a DevTool panel that includes all the
tools (see http://paulrouget.com/e/devtools-toolbox/)

We want to be able to open this panel easily from a keybinding, and as Mike
pointed out, we don't want to have a 3-keys binding.

Any recommendation?

Mike Ratcliffe wrote:
> I have used accel,alt + D but the feature is important enough to use 2 keys. We also want to avoid using function keys for Mac friendliness.

-- Paul

[Girish Sharma]

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:44:43 PM UTC+5:30, Mike Ratcliffe wrote:
> I have used accel,alt + D but the feature is important enough to use 2 keys. We also want to avoid using function keys for Mac friendliness.

What about 'Alt + X' ?

[Dao]

On 16.10.2012 13:21, Paul Rouget wrote:
> In the Firefox DevTools, we use to have one keybinding per tool.
>
> Now, we are introducing a way to start a DevTool panel that includes all the
> tools (see http://paulrouget.com/e/devtools-toolbox/)
>
> We want to be able to open this panel easily from a keybinding, and as Mike
> pointed out, we don't want to have a 3-keys binding.
>
> Any recommendation?

Shift+F2?

What key combination does Firebug use?

[Dao]

Alt is for access keys.

[Paul Rouget]

Dao wrote:
> What's going to be the difference between the Developer Toolbar
> (Shift+F2) and the Developer Tools Toolbox?

The toolbox is our tools all grouped in one box (with tabs).
The toolbar is a toolbar that includes the command line + a button to start the toolbox.
Starting the toolbox starts the latest-used tool.
See the screenshots in my post: http://paulrouget.com/e/devtools-toolbox/

-- Paul

[Girish Sharma]

This is already used by Developer Toolbar

>
>
> What key combination does Firebug use?

F12

[Paul Rouget]

This is used by the developer toolbar (by I'm not against changing/merging the
key bindings).

What about just F2 to start the tools and Shift-F2 for the toolbar? (maybe a
direct key is too much).

> What key combination does Firebug use?

ctrl or cmd + F12

-- Paul

[Paul Rouget]

Paul Rouget wrote:

> This is used by the developer toolbar (by I'm not against changing/merging the
> key bindings).
>
> What about just F2 to start the tools and Shift-F2 for the toolbar? (maybe a
> direct key is too much).
>

> > What key combination does Firebug use?
>

> ctrl or cmd + F12

No. Just F12.

-- Paul

[Anton Kovalyov]

Does it makes sense to take shortcut from Chrome Developer Tools? The
reason is to make it easier for people developing/debugging in Chrome to do
the same in Firefox.

Anton

On 16 October 2012 04:46, Paul Rouget <pa...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> Paul Rouget wrote:
> > Dao wrote:

> > This is used by the developer toolbar (by I'm not against
> changing/merging the
> > key bindings).
> >
> > What about just F2 to start the tools and Shift-F2 for the toolbar?
> (maybe a
> > direct key is too much).
> >

> > > What key combination does Firebug use?
> >

> > ctrl or cmd + F12
>
> No. Just F12.
>
> -- Paul

> _______________________________________________
> dev-apps-firefox mailing list
> dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-firefox
>

[Paul Rouget]

Anton Kovalyov wrote:
> Does it makes sense to take shortcut from Chrome Developer Tools? The
> reason is to make it easier for people developing/debugging in Chrome to do
> the same in Firefox.

I think that makes a lot of sense.

iirc, Chrome DevTools shortcut is ctrl-shift-I, which is the binding for the
Inspector.

> On 16 October 2012 04:46, Paul Rouget <pa...@mozilla.com> wrote:
>
> > Paul Rouget wrote:
> > > Dao wrote:

> > > This is used by the developer toolbar (by I'm not against
> > changing/merging the
> > > key bindings).
> > >
> > > What about just F2 to start the tools and Shift-F2 for the toolbar?
> > (maybe a
> > > direct key is too much).
> > >

> > > > What key combination does Firebug use?
> > >

> > > ctrl or cmd + F12
> >
> > No. Just F12.
> >
> > -- Paul
> > _______________________________________________
> > dev-apps-firefox mailing list
> > dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org
> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-firefox
> >
> _______________________________________________
> dev-apps-firefox mailing list
> dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-firefox

-- Paul

[Mike Ratcliffe]

We will use:
ctrl+shift+i Open Toolbox
ctrl+shift+d Inspect

On Wed 17 Oct 2012 09:30:28 BST, Paul Rouget wrote:
> Anton Kovalyov wrote:
>> Does it makes sense to take shortcut from Chrome Developer Tools? The
>> reason is to make it easier for people developing/debugging in Chrome to do
>> the same in Firefox.
>
> I think that makes a lot of sense.
>
> iirc, Chrome DevTools shortcut is ctrl-shift-I, which is the binding for the
> Inspector.
>
>> On 16 October 2012 04:46, Paul Rouget <pa...@mozilla.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Paul Rouget wrote:
>>>> Dao wrote:

>>>> This is used by the developer toolbar (by I'm not against
>>> changing/merging the
>>>> key bindings).
>>>>
>>>> What about just F2 to start the tools and Shift-F2 for the toolbar?
>>> (maybe a
>>>> direct key is too much).
>>>>

>>>>> What key combination does Firebug use?
>>>>

[Rob Campbell]

Isn't that the Debugger key combination on Windows?

Is the plan to change all of the keyboard shortcuts? I think the individual tools should still be keyboard accessible if at all possible.

On 2012-10-17, at 05:40 , Mike Ratcliffe <mratc...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> We will use:
> ctrl+shift+i Open Toolbox
> ctrl+shift+d Inspect
>
> On Wed 17 Oct 2012 09:30:28 BST, Paul Rouget wrote:
>> Anton Kovalyov wrote:
>>> Does it makes sense to take shortcut from Chrome Developer Tools? The
>>> reason is to make it easier for people developing/debugging in Chrome to do
>>> the same in Firefox.
>>
>> I think that makes a lot of sense.
>>
>> iirc, Chrome DevTools shortcut is ctrl-shift-I, which is the binding for the
>> Inspector.
>>
>>> On 16 October 2012 04:46, Paul Rouget <pa...@mozilla.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Paul Rouget wrote:
>>>>> Dao wrote:

>>>>> This is used by the developer toolbar (by I'm not against
>>>> changing/merging the
>>>>> key bindings).
>>>>>
>>>>> What about just F2 to start the tools and Shift-F2 for the toolbar?
>>>> (maybe a
>>>>> direct key is too much).
>>>>>

>>>>>> What key combination does Firebug use?
>>>>>

[Rob Campbell]

Now I'm replying to myself like a crazy person -- because keyboard shortcuts.

What's wrong with Ctrl-shift (or Cmd-alt) I to open the Toolbox with the Inspector active? It's probably what most people will want.

On 2012-10-17, at 08:26 , Rob Campbell <rcam...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> Isn't that the Debugger key combination on Windows?
>
> Is the plan to change all of the keyboard shortcuts? I think the individual tools should still be keyboard accessible if at all possible.
>
> On 2012-10-17, at 05:40 , Mike Ratcliffe <mratc...@mozilla.com> wrote:
>
>> We will use:
>> ctrl+shift+i Open Toolbox
>> ctrl+shift+d Inspect
>>
>> On Wed 17 Oct 2012 09:30:28 BST, Paul Rouget wrote:
>>> Anton Kovalyov wrote:
>>>> Does it makes sense to take shortcut from Chrome Developer Tools? The
>>>> reason is to make it easier for people developing/debugging in Chrome to do
>>>> the same in Firefox.
>>>
>>> I think that makes a lot of sense.
>>>
>>> iirc, Chrome DevTools shortcut is ctrl-shift-I, which is the binding for the
>>> Inspector.
>>>
>>>> On 16 October 2012 04:46, Paul Rouget <pa...@mozilla.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Paul Rouget wrote:
>>>>>> Dao wrote:

>>>>>> This is used by the developer toolbar (by I'm not against
>>>>> changing/merging the
>>>>>> key bindings).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about just F2 to start the tools and Shift-F2 for the toolbar?
>>>>> (maybe a
>>>>>> direct key is too much).
>>>>>>

>>>>>>> What key combination does Firebug use?
>>>>>>

[Paul Rouget]

We want one keybinding per tool. And we also want a generic keybinding to start the toolbox.
Starting the toolbox start the tool that last tool used.

That means:
- on keybinding per tool
- a keybinding to open the last tool

Does it make sense?

Rob Campbell wrote:
> Now I'm replying to myself like a crazy person -- because keyboard shortcuts.
>
> What's wrong with Ctrl-shift (or Cmd-alt) I to open the Toolbox with the Inspector active? It's probably what most people will want.
>
> On 2012-10-17, at 08:26 , Rob Campbell <rcam...@mozilla.com> wrote:
>
> > Isn't that the Debugger key combination on Windows?
> >
> > Is the plan to change all of the keyboard shortcuts? I think the individual tools should still be keyboard accessible if at all possible.
> >
> > On 2012-10-17, at 05:40 , Mike Ratcliffe <mratc...@mozilla.com> wrote:
> >
> >> We will use:
> >> ctrl+shift+i Open Toolbox
> >> ctrl+shift+d Inspect
> >>
> >> On Wed 17 Oct 2012 09:30:28 BST, Paul Rouget wrote:
> >>> Anton Kovalyov wrote:
> >>>> Does it makes sense to take shortcut from Chrome Developer Tools? The
> >>>> reason is to make it easier for people developing/debugging in Chrome to do
> >>>> the same in Firefox.
> >>>
> >>> I think that makes a lot of sense.
> >>>
> >>> iirc, Chrome DevTools shortcut is ctrl-shift-I, which is the binding for the
> >>> Inspector.
> >>>
> >>>> On 16 October 2012 04:46, Paul Rouget <pa...@mozilla.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Paul Rouget wrote:
> >>>>>> Dao wrote:

> >>>>>> This is used by the developer toolbar (by I'm not against
> >>>>> changing/merging the
> >>>>>> key bindings).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What about just F2 to start the tools and Shift-F2 for the toolbar?
> >>>>> (maybe a
> >>>>>> direct key is too much).
> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>> What key combination does Firebug use?
> >>>>>>

[Rob Campbell]

Debugger is on (Ctrl-shift|Cmd-alt)-s. I should know that.

Cmd-shift-D on Mac is Bookmark All Tabs. I assume Ctrl-shift-D is the same on Windows.

It does make sense, but given the shortage of keys and people's muscle memory, I'm not sure changing inspect to ctrl-shift-d is going to help. Why not just open the toolbox when people request a tool via the usual shortcut? Cmd/Ctrl…I is a key people are already familiar with and I think it'll do the right thing when it's inside the toolbox anyway.

Asked differently, why do we need a hotkey to open the most-recently-used tool at all?

>>>>>>>> This is used by the developer toolbar (by I'm not against
>>>>>>> changing/merging the
>>>>>>>> key bindings).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What about just F2 to start the tools and Shift-F2 for the toolbar?
>>>>>>> (maybe a
>>>>>>>> direct key is too much).
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> What key combination does Firebug use?
>>>>>>>>

[Dao]

On 17.10.2012 15:08, Rob Campbell wrote:
> Cmd-shift-D on Mac is Bookmark All Tabs. I assume Ctrl-shift-D is the same on Windows.

That's correct. This combo is taken.

[Paul Rouget]

Rob Campbell wrote:
> Asked differently, why do we need a hotkey to open the most-recently-used tool at all?

We want to have a "Start devtools" and a "Start devtoolbar" in the menu.
See http://i.imgur.com/qNdlI.png

Thinking about it… the user might just pick one his preferred tool as a way to
start the tools. So no key bindings.

We could also print the console or inspector key binding next to the "Start All
Tools" menuitem. That won't start the most-recently-used tool, but the console
(or the inspector).

Chrome does that (they always start the tools with the inspector).

So my suggestion is:

- no specific key binding for "most-recently-used tool"
- we display the inspector key binding next to "Start All Tools"

Benefits:

- no new keybinding
- same behavior as Chrome

-- Paul

[Kevin Dangoor]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 10:07 AM, Paul Rouget <pa...@mozilla.com> wrote:

> Chrome does that (they always start the tools with the inspector).
>
>

That is not true. cmd-opt-I on the Mac starts the most recently selected
tool. (Try it: select the Network tab, close the tools, press the shortcut
again, Network tab comes up again)

> So my suggestion is:
>
> - no specific key binding for "most-recently-used tool"
> - we display the inspector key binding next to "Start All Tools"
>
> Benefits:
>
> - no new keybinding
> - same behavior as Chrome
>

Though it's not the same behavior as Chrome, this seems like a reasonable
starting point to me.

Users all have their habits in terms of how they use the tools. I'm sure
that a lot of people are used to hitting F12 to start the tools (in fact,
IE's tools are even referred to as the "F12 Developer Tools" sometimes). A
couple of our user studies subjects used the Inspect Element menu item as
their normal path into developer tools. Anything that's different from what
people are used to is a bit jarring, but at the same time people have a
variety of habits for getting into the different tools.

What I like about your suggestion is that it's an incremental step from
where we are today and won't shock anyone. It'll give us a chance to see
what people think without raising their ire for changing their shortcuts.

Kevin

--
Kevin Dangoor

work: http://mozilla.com/
email: kdan...@mozilla.com <k...@blazingthings.com>
blog: http://www.BlueSkyOnMars.com

[Mike Ratcliffe]

Agreed, the same shortcut for Highlighter and Toolbox.

[Paul O’Shannessy]

It's not clear to me from this thread if we're going to lose the
keyboard shortcut that jumps straight to being able to select an
element on the page with the Inspector. If we're going to lose that
I'll complain loudly for a minute - it makes quick inspecting... easy
(no hunting for a button to press) and is honestly one of the handful
of things what stops me from using Chrome devtools entirely. If I was
wrong with my interpretation of this thread, then carry on and I look
forward to the toolbox (so so much)!

cheers,
Paul

[Rob Campbell]

It is my sincerest hope and belief that we will not regress existing functionality with any of this. I think the Inspect Element menu item is not going to go anywhere.

[Paul Rouget]

Paul O’Shannessy wrote:
> It's not clear to me from this thread if we're going to lose the
> keyboard shortcut that jumps straight to being able to select an
> element on the page with the Inspector. If we're going to lose that
> I'll complain loudly for a minute - it makes quick inspecting... easy
> (no hunting for a button to press) and is honestly one of the handful
> of things what stops me from using Chrome devtools entirely. If I was
> wrong with my interpretation of this thread, then carry on and I look
> forward to the toolbox (so so much)!
>
> cheers,
> Paul

We won't lose this keyboard shortcut.

cheers,
another Paul

[patric...@gmail.com]

Alright, I may be missing something very obvious here, but:
Shift + F2 opens the developer toolbar,
what closes it??

A command, a shortcut?

Thanks.

[Paul Rouget]

patric...@gmail.com wrote:
> Alright, I may be missing something very obvious here, but:
> Shift + F2 opens the developer toolbar,
> what closes it??

shift-F2 opens the toolbar if close, focus the toolbar if not focused, close the
toolbar if focused.

-- Paul

[Joe Walker]

As of Firefox version 17 (IIRC) shift+F2 closes the toolbar too.
Joe

[patric...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, November 1, 2012 10:56:59 AM UTC, Joe Walker wrote:
> As of Firefox version 17 (IIRC) shift+F2 closes the toolbar too.

Thanks for the quick replies.

I guess I'll have to install FF17 then (running 16.0.2 on Fedora here,
so yes, Shift+F2 opens, Shift+F2 focuses, but it doesn't close)

[patric...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, November 1, 2012 10:56:59 AM UTC, Joe Walker wrote:

> As of Firefox version 17 (IIRC) shift+F2 closes the toolbar too.

[WaltS]

Doesn't seem to be closing it here, but does in Firefox 18.0a2

--
Fedora 17 (64-bit) KDE 4.9.2
Thunderbird Beta (17.0) Install and test it.
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