Reconsidering ditching the menu in Firefox 4
Peter Lairo
menu from it's flagship office product:
From the insightful (and fun-to-read) David Pogue regarding the
upcoming Office 2010:
"To find Backstage, you click the File menu. (Yes, it actually says File
again; Microsoft ditched the baffling, unlabeled upper-left orb of the
previous version. Microsoft always brags about its exhaustive
focus-group sessions — how could they have missed that one?)"
Full article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/technology/personaltech/03pogue.html?nl=technology&emc=cta2
I hope Firefox can avoid making the same mistake...
Perhaps the planned "Firefox" button could make the current menu
appear/hide (instead of creating a new - and likely worse - menu system).
--
Regards,
Peter Lairo
Bugs I think are important:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=250539
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=391057
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=436259
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=446444
Islam: http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam101/
Israel: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/
Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster: http://www.venganza.org/
Anthropogenic Global Warming skepsis: http://tinyurl.com/AGW-Skepsis
Rob Arnold
> It seems Microsoft might have realized it made a mistake in removing the
> menu from it's flagship office product:
>
> From the insightful (and fun-to-read) David Pogue regarding the upcoming
> Office 2010:
>
> "To find Backstage, you click the File menu. (Yes, it actually says File
> again; Microsoft ditched the baffling, unlabeled upper-left orb of the
> previous version. Microsoft always brags about its exhaustive focus-group
> sessions — how could they have missed that one?)"
>
> Full article:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/technology/personaltech/03pogue.html?nl=technology&emc=cta2
>
>
I am only running the 2010 beta so this may have changed in a newer update.
It's not a menu, at least not the traditional popup menu. There is a sidebar
with the traditional basic file menu options but it also switches away from
the document to a tabbed view not unlike the mockups for the new preferences
dialog. It reminds me quite a bit of the home tab concept but the actual UI
element behaves as a checkbox rather than a tab (click once to switch, again
to switch back to the document).
> I hope Firefox can avoid making the same mistake...
>
> Perhaps the planned "Firefox" button could make the current menu
> appear/hide (instead of creating a new - and likely worse - menu system).
>
Perhaps the Firefox menu can trigger the home tab? I don't think it showing
the menu bar is natural (at least when I play through it in my head, it
doesn't seem that way). The Firefox menu at least has the word "Firefox" on
it which is at least a step above Microsoft's Orb (which I did not realize
was a menu until I saw someone use it).
I also have to say that traditional menus require more dexterity and motor
control than the ribbon found in 2010 so I would not be so quick to predict
that a new system would be worse (it will probably be worse in some aspects
but certainly not all - that would be a huge failure). In terms of the
"Grandmother test," Office 2010's interface does quite well for this metric.
-Rob
David McRitchie
> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Peter Lairo <Pe...@lairo.com> wrote:
>
>> It seems Microsoft might have realized it made a mistake in removing the
>> menu from it's flagship office product:
>>
>> From the insightful (and fun-to-read) David Pogue regarding the upcoming
>> Office 2010:
>>
>> "To find Backstage, you click the File menu. (Yes, it actually says File
>> again; Microsoft ditched the baffling, unlabeled upper-left orb of the
>> previous version. Microsoft always brags about its exhaustive focus-group
>>
>> Full article:
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/technology/personaltech/03pogue.html?nl=technology&emc=cta2
>>
>>
> I am only running the 2010 beta so this may have changed in a newer update.
> It's not a menu, at least not the traditional popup menu. There is a sidebar
> with the traditional basic file menu options but it also switches away from
> the document to a tabbed view not unlike the mockups for the new preferences
> dialog. It reminds me quite a bit of the home tab concept but the actual UI
> element behaves as a checkbox rather than a tab (click once to switch, again
> to switch back to the document).
>
>
>> I hope Firefox can avoid making the same mistake...
>>
>> Perhaps the planned "Firefox" button could make the current menu
>> appear/hide (instead of creating a new - and likely worse - menu system).
>>
>
> Perhaps the Firefox menu can trigger the home tab? I don't think it showing
> the menu bar is natural (at least when I play through it in my head, it
> doesn't seem that way). The Firefox menu at least has the word "Firefox" on
> it which is at least a step above Microsoft's Orb (which I did not realize
> was a menu until I saw someone use it).
>
> I also have to say that traditional menus require more dexterity and motor
> control than the ribbon found in 2010 so I would not be so quick to predict
> that a new system would be worse (it will probably be worse in some aspects
> but certainly not all - that would be a huge failure). In terms of the
> "Grandmother test," Office 2010's interface does quite well for this metric.
That was the part that was least changed in Office 2007 anyway, in that once
you realized it was a button and replaced the file menu and knew what was there
before in the file menu, you could at least find it (extra clicking though). It
made Office almost unusable for me, after 3 years and with modifications
to help me that most users would not find, I use it now once a week to
record some numbers into a spreadsheet, and less often to convert a table
to HTML coding. Before Office 2007, I spent several hours a day on Excel.
The only thing that really helps is keyboard shortcuts, and improved
context menus, and from what I've read something bad is going to happen
to the context menus.
changed.
.
belt...@mozilla.com
Also, comparisons between browsers and office software are a little spurrious. The point of office software is to edit and act on content, the point of a web browser is to help navigate to content which is then acted upon by the web application and its UI.
cheers,
mike
----- Reply message -----
From: "David McRitchie" <fire...@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, Jun 4, 2010 12:01 pm
Subject: Reconsidering ditching the menu in Firefox 4
To: <dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org>
"Rob Arnold" <tel...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:mailman.1828.1275658235...@lists.mozilla.org...
> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Peter Lairo <Pe...@lairo.com> wrote:
>
>> It seems Microsoft might have realized it made a mistake in removing the
>> menu from it's flagship office product:
>>
>> From the insightful (and fun-to-read) David Pogue regarding the upcoming
>> Office 2010:
>>
>> "To find Backstage, you click the File menu. (Yes, it actually says File
>> again; Microsoft ditched the baffling, unlabeled upper-left orb of the
>> previous version. Microsoft always brags about its exhaustive focus-group
>> sessions — how could they have missed that one?)"
.
_______________________________________________
dev-apps-firefox mailing list
dev-apps...@lists.mozilla.org
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-apps-firefox
EE
> It seems Microsoft might have realized it made a mistake in removing the
> menu from it's flagship office product:
>
> From the insightful (and fun-to-read) David Pogue regarding the
> upcoming Office 2010:
>
> "To find Backstage, you click the File menu. (Yes, it actually says File
> again; Microsoft ditched the baffling, unlabeled upper-left orb of the
> previous version. Microsoft always brags about its exhaustive
> focus-group sessions — how could they have missed that one?)"
>
> Full article:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/technology/personaltech/03pogue.html?nl=technology&emc=cta2
>
>
> I hope Firefox can avoid making the same mistake...
>
> Perhaps the planned "Firefox" button could make the current menu
> appear/hide (instead of creating a new - and likely worse - menu system).
I agree. I use my menu all the time. I would hate it if the menu were
simply gone. If some people want to hide it, let them do that, but let
me keep my menu available.
Alexander Limi
> On 2010/06/04 6:14, Peter Lairo wrote:
>
>> Perhaps the planned "Firefox" button could make the current menu
>> appear/hide (instead of creating a new - and likely worse - menu system).
>>
>
It's faster, cleaner and simpler. Unlikely to be "worse".
> I agree. I use my menu all the time. I would hate it if the menu were
> simply gone. If some people want to hide it, let them do that, but let me
> keep my menu available.
>
The old menu structure will be available — and indeed, the default on
systems that have strong menu conventions in their OS, like OS X and Windows
XP — and you can always turn it on if you want to use it on a system that
doesn't, e.g. Windows 7.
--
Alexander Limi · Firefox User Experience Team · http://limi.net
Omega X
> It seems Microsoft might have realized it made a mistake in removing the
> menu from it's flagship office product:
>
> From the insightful (and fun-to-read) David Pogue regarding the
> upcoming Office 2010:
>
> "To find Backstage, you click the File menu. (Yes, it actually says File
> again; Microsoft ditched the baffling, unlabeled upper-left orb of the
> previous version. Microsoft always brags about its exhaustive
> focus-group sessions — how could they have missed that one?)"
>
> Full article:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/technology/personaltech/03pogue.html?nl=technology&emc=cta2
>
>
> I hope Firefox can avoid making the same mistake...
>
> Perhaps the planned "Firefox" button could make the current menu
> appear/hide (instead of creating a new - and likely worse - menu system).
Sounds more like they just should have made it more obvious. But they
didn't. They automatically assumed that people would know that it was a
menu.
Labeling it better should avoid that issue.
--
------------------------------------------------------
~Omega X
MozillaZine Nightly Tester
Timo Pietilä
> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 2:46 PM, EE <nu...@bees.wax> wrote:
>
>> On 2010/06/04 6:14, Peter Lairo wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps the planned "Firefox" button could make the current menu
>>> appear/hide (instead of creating a new - and likely worse - menu system).
>>>
> It's faster, cleaner and simpler. Unlikely to be "worse".
I haven't seen that. Can you describe it to me? How is it faster,
cleaner or simpler than simple menu?
Timo Pietilä
Alexander Limi
We redesigned the menu layout to be more in line with how browsers are used,
and did a Test Pilot study that showed the same usage in the wild, and made
some additional adjustments based on those numbers.
- (non-final) layout:
https://bug556174.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=448663
- Test Pilot data, visualized:
http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2010/03/23/visualizing-usage-of-the-firefox-menu-bar/
John Bird
three entries I use the most:
Recently closed tabs
Check for updates
I also sometimes use Bookmarks/Add a bookmark
That is usually only if I am on a page with Flash which often seems to
disable some hot keys (ie CTRL+D does not respond)
These also showed a lot of use in the labs
Are these menu entries going to appear somewhere obvious?
(By the way I haven't seen anyone else mention this - Flash on a page (eg
YouTube) will often disable keys such as
CTRL+PageUp or CTRL+D)
John Bird
> - (non-final) layout:
> https://bug556174.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=448663
> - Test Pilot data, visualized:
>
> http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2010/03/23/visualizing-usage-of-the-firefox-menu-bar/
>
>
> --
> Alexander Limi ? Firefox User Experience Team ? http://limi.net
>
>
Peter Lairo
> We redesigned the menu layout to be more in line with how browsers are used,
> and did a Test Pilot study that showed the same usage in the wild, and made
> some additional adjustments based on those numbers.
>
> - (non-final) layout:
> https://bug556174.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=448663
Thanks for the screen-shot.
A cursory study of the data seems to indicate that users strongly favor
the Bookmarks and Copy & Paste menu items. All the others: much less.
Have you considered making the Firefox button make the current menu
slide into view?
Why are the Extension menu items *below* the Exit item?
EE
> On Sat. 05.06.2010 10:56, Alexander Limi wrote:
>> We redesigned the menu layout to be more in line with how browsers are
>> used,
>> and did a Test Pilot study that showed the same usage in the wild, and
>> made
>> some additional adjustments based on those numbers.
>>
>> - (non-final) layout:
>> https://bug556174.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=448663
>
> Thanks for the screen-shot.
>
> A cursory study of the data seems to indicate that users strongly favor
> the Bookmarks and Copy & Paste menu items. All the others: much less.
>
> Have you considered making the Firefox button make the current menu
> slide into view?
>
> Why are the Extension menu items *below* the Exit item?
Would the release notes not fit better with the help items?
I do not see any item to show the status bar. I take it that that will
be permanent? That would be a good idea anyway. It is too useful not
to have it.
Alexander Limi
> I was bemused to notice that the new menu layout does not include the two
> or three entries I use the most:
>
> Recently closed tabs
>
The plan is to have it appear in the tab overflow menu.
> Check for updates
>
Appears in the About window that shows what your current version is. (of
course, FF checks for updates for you in the background too)
Blair McBride
>> Check for updates
>>
>
> Appears in the About window that shows what your current version is. (of
> course, FF checks for updates for you in the background too)
Does this include the "Apply downloaded update now" menu item? I find
having quick access to that is incredibly useful, being on nightlies and
only wanting to update when its convient (ie, not when the update dialog
pops up).
- Blair
Shawn Wilsher
> Does this include the "Apply downloaded update now" menu item? I find
> having quick access to that is incredibly useful, being on nightlies
> and only wanting to update when its convient (ie, not when the update
> dialog pops up).
for what it is worth. Most of our users aren't nightly users.
Cheers,
Shawn
Blair McBride
scenario. If you dismiss the software update dialog, there's no other
visual indication that there's an update waiting to be applied. You
either need to close and restart the browser, or remember that you
dismissed an update dialog some time in the past and didn't restart. Of
course, this only really applies to people who keep their browser open
for extended periods of time.
- Blair
chris hofmann
> On 6/9/2010 7:37 PM, Blair McBride wrote:
>> Does this include the "Apply downloaded update now" menu item? I find
>> having quick access to that is incredibly useful, being on nightlies
>> and only wanting to update when its convient (ie, not when the update
>> dialog pops up).
> I don't think we should be optimizing the UI for what nightly users
> want for what it is worth. Most of our users aren't nightly users.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Shawn
>
and espcially those that beleive they suffer from "update fatigue" and
the update offers always appearing at inopportune times. It just
happens to happen to nighly users more frequently.
-chofmann
Drew
better solution?
Drew
On 6/9/10 8:17 PM, Blair McBride wrote:
> Agreed - but I think its just a more extreme example of a "normal user"
> scenario. If you dismiss the software update dialog, there's no other
> visual indication that there's an update waiting to be applied. You
> either need to close and restart the browser, or remember that you
> dismissed an update dialog some time in the past and didn't restart. Of
> course, this only really applies to people who keep their browser open
> for extended periods of time.
>
> - Blair
>
>
>
> On 10/06/2010 2:52 p.m., Shawn Wilsher wrote:
>> On 6/9/2010 7:37 PM, Blair McBride wrote:
>>> Does this include the "Apply downloaded update now" menu item? I find
>>> having quick access to that is incredibly useful, being on nightlies
>>> and only wanting to update when its convient (ie, not when the update
>>> dialog pops up).
>> I don't think we should be optimizing the UI for what nightly users want
>> for what it is worth. Most of our users aren't nightly users.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Shawn
>>
>>
>>
Robert Strong
On 6/9/2010 8:20 PM, Drew wrote:
> Aren't we planning on supporting promptless updates sometime soon --
> the better solution?
and above will only show a prompt for a major update or when there is a
version change and extensions that are currently enabled / compatible
aren't compatible with the new version and will be disabled... so, I
think the prompt has been removed from the process flow the vast
majority of the time. On trunk, Firefox and other applications can
define in their update snippet whether to show a prompt or not instead
of always showing one for a major update. There will still be Firefox /
application provided preferences where an they can specify defaults
whether to show a prompt for an update that will make enabled /
compatible extensions disabled due to the extension not being compatible
with the update.
The main thing that is still in the way to accomplishing silent updates
is the applying of the update on startup which doesn't involve the
prompt to update which is my current focus.
Robert
Alex Faaborg
To find Backstage, you click the File menu. (Yes, it actually says File
> again; Microsoft ditched the baffling, unlabeled upper-left orb of the
> previous version. Microsoft always brags about its exhaustive focus-group
> sessions — how could they have missed that one?)
>
The key word in there is "unlabeled." This statement however is in no
Microsoft going back on any of their other decisions, it is simply
acknowledging that having the main controls for the application placed under
a menu that is impossible to say or write (it was an image of the complex
Office logo [1]) made it impossible to communicate. It was kind of like
when Prince lost the rights to his own name and became "the artist formerly
known as prince" but was otherwise represented by this crazy symbol you
can't type or say [2]. Instead of "the menu formerly known as File" they
went with "the orb" in their own communications but no one really knew to
call it that.
This is not a problem for us, we have a "Firefox button" that displays a
"Firefox menu" (text, not icon). This contains all of the commands related
to controlling Firefox (and as such is an accurate name). Also even prior
to the Microsoft's changes in 2010, the UX team discussed the need to avoid
a prince menu (for instance, all of the similar application menu controls in
Windows 7 use an icon for their orbs [3]).
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Office2007toolbar.png
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prince_logo.svg
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Paint_7.png
Mike Beltzner
menu. I do think that if we do that, we need to find another place to
put it, such as the Options/Preferences pane about updating.
As mentioned, updates will move to being totally background, and the
majority of our users will enjoy that functionality. However, our data
shows that on days when we release new versions of Firefox, a
significant portion of users want to manually check for updates.
cheers,
mike
Nelson Bolyard
> It seems Microsoft might have realized it made a mistake in removing the
> menu from it's flagship office product:
> I hope Firefox can avoid making the same mistake...
And since Microsoft ditched it, Firefox must do the same,
and when Microsoft repented of its folly, Firefox must do the same. Right?
Lemming see, Lemming do.
Alexander Limi
…which they can still do via the About window/page that will show the
current version and offers a button to check manually for updates.
Peter Lairo
Wrong. Microsoft is not an ignorant organization; and they usually don't
do things without a lot of thought and research. The least we should do
is keep an eye on their decisions and take them seriously. We should not
blindly follow what they do - obviously.
> Lemming see, Lemming do.
There's no need for asinine insults.
PS. You might find this enlightening:
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/reflections-from-second-draft/cognitive-egocentrism/
Mike Beltzner
cheers,
mike
Asa Dotzler
> I don't think it's a problem to remove "Check for Updates" from the
> menu. I do think that if we do that, we need to find another place to
> put it, such as the Options/Preferences pane about updating.
How about putting it in the About dialog?
- A
Mike Beltzner
> How about putting it in the About dialog?
Keep reading!
cheers,
mike
Asa Dotzler
Yay!
- A
anaesthetica
Or you could ship nightly/beta releases with certain extra menu
options. They could then be hidden for stable releases. People who
want a "Check for Updates" menu option because they're nightly testers
would have it, while the general user would not be bothered by its
absence.
Alex Faaborg
> Or you could ship nightly/beta releases with certain extra menu
> options.
>
yeah I think that's reasonable. We are including a Feedback menu on the
navigational toolbar with a variety of tools for the beta program, so it's
not going to be totally unprecedented for betas and nightly builds to have
slightly different functionality from the final product.
-Alex