I would like to propose a move to the Tango [1] icon style for the Linux version of Firefox 3.
The Tango project exists to help create a consistent graphical user interface experience for free and Open Source software."
Many people think of the Tango project (http://tango.freedesktop.org/) as an icon set. However, Tango is much broader than this. Rather than a single icons set, Tango is a set of visual guidelines to help anyone create a set of icons that can work well together.
Projects that have recently adopted the Tango style include the Gimp (upcoming version 2.4), Pidgin (aka Gaim), and Scribus. Work is under way for Inkscape, OpenOffice.org, Blender, and plenty of other projects.
Perhaps most significantly, the Gnome desktop, including the significant Gtk-stock icon set has recently moved to the Tango style. Here's a sample: http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=45
Keep in mind, though, that we are not limited to that exact icon set. We could develop a new set of icons that match the metaphors of the Winstripe/Pinstripe themes, but redrawn to better tie in with the Tango style (and hence the rest of the Linux desktop).
While most of the integration work I have seen for Firefox on the Linux desktop has focused on Gnome, it is worth noting that the visual style of Tango was also designed to fit in relatively well in the KDE environment.
Andreas Nilssen, one of the primary icon designers/illustrators with the Tango project has expressed a keen interest in helping out with Tango in Firefox 3. He's willing to redraw icons, and offer them in whatever license is necessary for inclusion upstream in Firefox.
Also note that everything I have said here also applies to Thunderbird.
I'm looking for some direction on who in particular I should speak to about this - who is driving the visual style of the UI for Firefox 3, and who is driving the Linux aspect in particular.
Steven Garrity wrote: > I would like to propose a move to the Tango [1] icon style for the Linux > version of Firefox 3.
> The Tango project exists to help create a consistent graphical user > interface experience for free and Open Source software."
[...] rest of advertisement stripped
I believe it's more important to have a uniform look among Firefox for Mac, Firefox for Linux and Firefox for Windows, than among Firefox for Linux and Gnome for Linux, especially if kde for Linux is not included.
I say, let's keep the Tango theme a separate addon, and keep the default styles of Fx & Tb as-is.
Best regards, Tony. -- "I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this." -- Emo Phillips
> Steven Garrity wrote: > > I would like to propose a move to the Tango [1] icon style for the Linux > > version of Firefox 3.
> > The Tango project exists to help create a consistent graphical user > > interface experience for free and Open Source software."
> [...] rest of advertisement stripped
> I believe it's more important to have a uniform look among Firefox for Mac, > Firefox for Linux and Firefox for Windows, than among Firefox for Linux and > Gnome for Linux, especially if kde for Linux is not included.
> I say, let's keep the Tango theme a separate addon, and keep the default > styles of Fx & Tb as-is.
> Best regards, > Tony. > -- > "I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my > body. Then I realized who was telling me this." > -- Emo Phillips
I disagree. Native looking applications have a much better feel. Any Mac user knows how out of place a poorly themed application looks on OSX. On Linux, it's not so obvious as interface guidelines are less strict. However, the Tango project is really taking off, and the applications Steven mentioned look really good.
The idea of Firefox looking the same across Windows, Linux and Mac is not as important, although consistency is needed for the branding.
Here is a quick first preview on how the icons would look http://andreasn.se/diverse/temp/firefox3.png Same colors and metaphors as on the windows platform, but matching the look of gnu/linux better.
Remember, this is only ~1 hour of work to try stuff out, so the final icons would get much more love. :)
Adam Guthrie wrote: > So, is there a bug open on this? I think opening a bug and CCing some of > the Firefox 3 drivers would be the best way to get moving on this.
Good idea, Adam. I have opened a bug and CC'ed beltzner and mconnor. Anyone know who else should be CC'ed?
On 18-May-07, at 11:07 AM, andreasn.pi...@gmail.com wrote:
> Here is a quick first preview on how the icons would look > http://andreasn.se/diverse/temp/firefox3.png > Same colors and metaphors as on the windows platform, but matching the > look of gnu/linux better.
> Remember, this is only ~1 hour of work to try stuff out, so the final > icons would get much more love. :)
That actually looks pretty reasonable. I think we want to be recognizably Firefox, while feeling native. Not a trivial goal, at that.
The main questions I have are:
Do we want to just use stock icons (the support is there) here?
Is Tango becoming the default icon set for GNOME/GTK in any distros?
Who is going to commit to doing the nuts and bolts work to support this (CSS fixes, packaging/build changes, etc)? Icons are the easy part, its the off by one stuff that's hard (though in theory we're in good shape on Linux (ignoring the native vs. non-native tabs war for a moment).
> On 18-May-07, at 11:07 AM, andreasn.pi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Here is a quick first preview on how the icons would look > >http://andreasn.se/diverse/temp/firefox3.png > > Same colors and metaphors as on the windows platform, but matching the > > look of gnu/linux better.
> > Remember, this is only ~1 hour of work to try stuff out, so the final > > icons would get much more love. :)
> That actually looks pretty reasonable. I think we want to be > recognizably Firefox, while feeling native. Not a trivial goal, at > that.
> The main questions I have are:
> Do we want to just use stock icons (the support is there) here?
Hi Mike!
If we can do that, it would be great as apart from making people happy for picking up their selected theme, it would use the HighContrast theme for people with reduced eye vision and suddenly make it usable for them as well.
> Is Tango becoming the default icon set for GNOME/GTK in any distros?
gnome-icon-theme, the default set for GNOME are following the style guidelines. Suse ships tango-icon-theme and Ubuntu, although it have some special icons for folders and such, falls back on tango as well.
> Who is going to commit to doing the nuts and bolts work to support > this (CSS fixes, packaging/build changes, etc)? Icons are the easy > part, its the off by one stuff that's hard (though in theory we're in > good shape on Linux (ignoring the native vs. non-native tabs war for > a moment).
Garrett LeSage at Novell have done a great job fixing spacing and stuff in his specialized firefox theme so it feels more like a native application. I think we can reuse his work for this. I hope we can find some volunteers for the other task pretty quick as well.
> gnome-icon-theme, the default set for GNOME are following the style > guidelines. Suse ships tango-icon-theme and Ubuntu, although it have > some special icons for folders and such, falls back on tango as well.
Forgot to add that tango-icon-theme is the default in Foresight Linux, and that gnome-icon-theme is used by default in both Mandriva and Debian as well. Sorry for the noise, just came to think of it before I hit bed yesterday. :)
Mike Connor wrote: > Is Tango becoming the default icon set for GNOME/GTK in any distros?
While the Tango default icon set isn't the default icon set for many distros, that's not the goal. The icon set created by the tango project is really a reference implementation.
The goal of the tango project is not to have one universal set of icons used everywhere, but rather to have a consistent set of visual styles that are (hopefully) used everywhere.
So, you can draw a custom icon theme for your distro if you want a unique visual style, but if you follow the visual design guidelines of the Tango project, other tango-style apps can still fit in nicely with your new theme.
Fedora 7 (as of Test4, not sure about Final) is using the Mist icon theme [1], which is now using the Tango visual style. The the Gtk Stock icons have been redrawn in to the Tango style recently.
OpenSuse also seems to use a Tango variation [2]. Ubuntu seems to ship with Tangerine, which is an orange Tango variation, though the default icon theme they ship is Human.
> On 18-May-07, at 11:07 AM, andreasn.pi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Here is a quick first preview on how the icons would look > > http://andreasn.se/diverse/temp/firefox3.png > > Same colors and metaphors as on the windows platform, but matching the > > look of gnu/linux better.
> > Remember, this is only ~1 hour of work to try stuff out, so the final > > icons would get much more love. :)
> That actually looks pretty reasonable. I think we want to be > recognizably Firefox, while feeling native. Not a trivial goal, at > that.
> The main questions I have are:
> Do we want to just use stock icons (the support is there) here?
> Is Tango becoming the default icon set for GNOME/GTK in any distros?
> Who is going to commit to doing the nuts and bolts work to support > this (CSS fixes, packaging/build changes, etc)? Icons are the easy > part, its the off by one stuff that's hard (though in theory we're in > good shape on Linux (ignoring the native vs. non-native tabs war for > a moment).
> -- Mike
Hi All I'm Andrea Cimitan, Gnome gtk-engines's developer
I'm talking now to show you a problem that is becoming an HUGE Problem for the users: The regression of the gtk2-integration since version 2 of Firefox.
As a developer and a well known guy in the community I'm in touch with a lot of users and I've seen a big amount of them switching to Opera or Epiphany, because of this. Tabs, forms, toolbars, menus, windows etc etc got a regression from 1.5 release, which looked not perfectly but at least better than this problematic 2.0.
Here we have the feeling that Firefox devs forgot the linux community in favour of the Windows's one. In windows firefox is a good browser, in linux it has a low speed, big RAM problems/consumption, crashes, mem leaks, and a bad integration with the native look. That's why linux users are no longer using firefox as in the past.
I don't want to see such a bad future of Firefox in Linux. But now the scenery is just that bad one. If the things doesn't change in firefox 3.0 I guess Firefox won't be the default choice for everyone.
I'm here to add my voice on that terms and to repeat my agreement on: 1) An icon theme based on tango guidelines is a lot better than a firefox ones 2) A gtk2 integration _At_least_ as Firefox 1.5 level is the FIRST MAIN GOAL that you should follow in the 3.0 development, otherwise "let's get lost"
I'm afraid of this, but this is not my opinion but the opinion of hundreds and hundreads of users i've talked to.
> > On 18-May-07, at 11:07 AM, andreasn.pi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Here is a quick first preview on how the icons would look > > >http://andreasn.se/diverse/temp/firefox3.png > > > Same colors and metaphors as on the windows platform, but matching the > > > look of gnu/linux better.
> > > Remember, this is only ~1 hour of work to try stuff out, so the final > > > icons would get much more love. :)
> > That actually looks pretty reasonable. I think we want to be > > recognizably Firefox, while feeling native. Not a trivial goal, at > > that.
> > The main questions I have are:
> > Do we want to just use stock icons (the support is there) here?
> > Is Tango becoming the default icon set for GNOME/GTK in any distros?
> > Who is going to commit to doing the nuts and bolts work to support > > this (CSS fixes, packaging/build changes, etc)? Icons are the easy > > part, its the off by one stuff that's hard (though in theory we're in > > good shape on Linux (ignoring the native vs. non-native tabs war for > > a moment).
> > -- Mike
It's so simple what I was saying. Simply in firefox the widgets are not using gtk to draw but they're drawn directly by firefox. This will result in a lack of integration and problems with different styles
> Hi All I'm Andrea Cimitan, Gnome gtk-engines's developer
> I'm talking now to show you a problem that is becoming an HUGE Problem > for the users: > The regression of the gtk2-integration since version 2 of Firefox.
> As a developer and a well known guy in the community I'm in touch with > a lot of users and I've seen a big amount of them switching to Opera > or Epiphany, because of this. > Tabs, forms, toolbars, menus, windows etc etc got a regression from > 1.5 release, which looked not perfectly but at least better than this > problematic 2.0.
> Here we have the feeling that Firefox devs forgot the linux community > in favour of the Windows's one. In windows firefox is a good browser, > in linux it has a low speed, big RAM problems/consumption, crashes, > mem leaks, and a bad integration with the native look. > That's why linux users are no longer using firefox as in the past.
> I don't want to see such a bad future of Firefox in Linux. But now the > scenery is just that bad one. > If the things doesn't change in firefox 3.0 I guess Firefox won't be > the default choice for everyone.
> I'm here to add my voice on that terms and to repeat my agreement on: > 1) An icon theme based on tango guidelines is a lot better than a > firefox ones > 2) A gtk2 integration _At_least_ as Firefox 1.5 level is the FIRST > MAIN GOAL that you should follow in the 3.0 development, otherwise > "let's get lost"
> I'm afraid of this, but this is not my opinion but the opinion of > hundreds and hundreads of users i've talked to.
> Hi All I'm Andrea Cimitan, Gnome gtk-engines's developer
As an Open Source developer yourself, you probably know how development in such projects is working: File bugs, code a patch, get the patch included ;-)
And yes, there are many areas where Linux integration could be much better, functionally and visually. It would help quite a lot to get help (even better patches) from people who know the code we (as in: the Mozilla platform and products) should be integrating with.
Robert Kaiser wrote: > andrea.cimi...@gmail.com schrieb: >> Hi All I'm Andrea Cimitan, Gnome gtk-engines's developer
> As an Open Source developer yourself, you probably know how development > in such projects is working: File bugs, code a patch, get the patch > included ;-)
Come on Robert, this person is seriously doing hard work, but for a different project. Nobody should have to replace a factory engine, because the engineers who put it in there were too lazy!
> And yes, there are many areas where Linux integration could be much > better, functionally and visually. It would help quite a lot to get help > (even better patches) from people who know the code we (as in: the > Mozilla platform and products) should be integrating with.
<mv_van_rantw...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Robert Kaiser wrote: > > andrea.cimi...@gmail.com schrieb: > >> Hi All I'm Andrea Cimitan, Gnome gtk-engines's developer
> > As an Open Source developer yourself, you probably know how development > > in such projects is working: File bugs, code a patch, get the patch > > included ;-)
> Come on Robert, this person is seriously doing hard work, but for a > different project. Nobody should have to replace a factory engine, > because the engineers who put it in there were too lazy!
> > And yes, there are many areas where Linux integration could be much > > better, functionally and visually. It would help quite a lot to get help > > (even better patches) from people who know the code we (as in: the > > Mozilla platform and products) should be integrating with.
> > Robert Kaiser
Since with 1.5 we got a nice support, shouldn't be possible to get the previous code?
> On 2 Giu, 14:45, andrea.cimi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> That actually looks pretty reasonable. I think we want to be >>> recognizably Firefox, while feeling native. Not a trivial goal, at >>> that.
>>> The main questions I have are:
>>> Do we want to just use stock icons (the support is there) here?
>>> Is Tango becoming the default icon set for GNOME/GTK in any distros?
>>> Who is going to commit to doing the nuts and bolts work to support >>> this (CSS fixes, packaging/build changes, etc)? Icons are the easy >>> part, its the off by one stuff that's hard (though in theory >>> we're in >>> good shape on Linux (ignoring the native vs. non-native tabs war for >>> a moment).
>>> -- Mike
> It's so simple what I was saying. Simply in firefox the widgets are > not using gtk to draw but they're drawn directly by firefox. > This will result in a lack of integration and problems with different > styles
In general, using XUL vs. native widgets is a tradeoff we will continue to make (as we do for Mac and Windows). We need to continue to improve the nsITheme support to aid in tighter visual integration (though filing bugs is still helpful). Adopting the Epiphany (native GTK app wrapping Gecko) approach means we lose the cross-platform nature of development, and extensions aren't going to just work without porting to GTK, to name a couple of problems.
Hooking up native drawing to form controls is mentioned by roc at http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2007/06/ status_update.html as being on tap for alpha6, but beyond that, listing what you feel are the areas that we a) need to improve and b) that you feel regressed between Fx1.5 and Fx2 would be a better step than a general "You're doing it wrong" rant.
> On 3-Jun-07, at 11:30 AM, andrea.cimi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On 2 Giu, 14:45, andrea.cimi...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> That actually looks pretty reasonable. I think we want to be > >>> recognizably Firefox, while feeling native. Not a trivial goal, at > >>> that.
> >>> The main questions I have are:
> >>> Do we want to just use stock icons (the support is there) here?
> >>> Is Tango becoming the default icon set for GNOME/GTK in any distros?
> >>> Who is going to commit to doing the nuts and bolts work to support > >>> this (CSS fixes, packaging/build changes, etc)? Icons are the easy > >>> part, its the off by one stuff that's hard (though in theory > >>> we're in > >>> good shape on Linux (ignoring the native vs. non-native tabs war for > >>> a moment).
> >>> -- Mike
> > It's so simple what I was saying. Simply in firefox the widgets are > > not using gtk to draw but they're drawn directly by firefox. > > This will result in a lack of integration and problems with different > > styles
> In general, using XUL vs. native widgets is a tradeoff we will > continue to make (as we do for Mac and Windows). We need to continue > to improve the nsITheme support to aid in tighter visual integration > (though filing bugs is still helpful). Adopting the Epiphany (native > GTK app wrapping Gecko) approach means we lose the cross-platform > nature of development, and extensions aren't going to just work > without porting to GTK, to name a couple of problems.
I know what is xul and in fact I was talking about its integegration with the gtk look.
> Hooking up native drawing to form controls is mentioned by roc at http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2007/06/ > status_update.html as being on tap for alpha6, but beyond that, > listing what you feel are the areas that we a) need to improve and b) > that you feel regressed between Fx1.5 and Fx2 would be a better step > than a general "You're doing it wrong" rant.
I haven't made a rant for fun but to express the feeling we have using firefox. By the way i'm sad about this, and I'm sorry for being annoying to you. Sorry. On the other hand, going back in topic, what I've asked (between the rants ehehe :) ) is the request of supporting XUL as in firefox 1.5, so making a small summary: 1) gtk location bar/ entry widget on the toolbar 2) gtk tabs 3) better support on frames, some of them are not drawn, for example in the sidebar (bookmarks/history sidebars) 4) fix notebooks widgets (for example see preferences) 5) fix a strange behaviour with the menubar, on which the hovered buttons are seen as menuitems and not as menubaritems (but this is less important than point 1) and 2) )
I hope my intent is more appreciated now, and sorry for the irruence :D Andrea
On 6/4/07, andrea.cimi...@gmail.com <andrea.cimi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On the other hand, going back in topic, what I've asked (between the > rants ehehe :) ) is the request of supporting XUL as in firefox 1.5, > so making a small summary: > 1) gtk location bar/ entry widget on the toolbar > 2) gtk tabs
We did not use GTK-native widgets for the location bar _or_ for tabs, in Firefox 1.5.
On 4 Giu, 17:17, "Mike Shaver" <mike.sha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/4/07, andrea.cimi...@gmail.com <andrea.cimi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On the other hand, going back in topic, what I've asked (between the > > rants ehehe :) ) is the request of supporting XUL as in firefox 1.5, > > so making a small summary: > > 1) gtk location bar/ entry widget on the toolbar > > 2) gtk tabs
> We did not use GTK-native widgets for the location bar _or_ for tabs, > in Firefox 1.5.
> Mike
Who said this? Me not. I was saying that the previous behaviour was much better. This is a screenshot of previous look http://www.websitex5.com/accessibile/7580302.jpg now we have a squared location bar with drawn widgets (no buttons or something else, just drawn) and the tabs have an odd look too, independent from the gtk theme (you know the glossy tabs...) That drawing behaviour cause also problems with dark themes, for example, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=236559 (yes tabs were improved but they are still drawn a lot brighter than the background
On 4 Giu, 17:17, "Mike Shaver" <mike.sha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/4/07, andrea.cimi...@gmail.com <andrea.cimi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On the other hand, going back in topic, what I've asked (between the > > rants ehehe :) ) is the request of supporting XUL as in firefox 1.5, > > so making a small summary: > > 1) gtk location bar/ entry widget on the toolbar > > 2) gtk tabs
> We did not use GTK-native widgets for the location bar _or_ for tabs, > in Firefox 1.5.
> Mike
Ok i realised that getting a 1.5 similar feeling is possible, for example getting "winestripe" theme founded on addond.mozilla.org. Why don't do some work on firefox 3.0 linux default theme?
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