I'm writing this post to the mailing list to inform the MooTools community about what the developers have been doing these days, and what is to come for the framework. We are all getting tired of answering the same questions over and over again, so I hope this clears some things up and we can stop seeing the same thing, over and over and over again in the mailing list.
1. What's up with the site?
Many of you think we discarded the old MooTools site in exchange for a bland boring alternative. The reason we've upgraded the site to the new beautiful, simple, not-flashy-at-all site is because we want people to understand what MooTools is before they attempt to use it. We love the new site, and it's exactly what we want it to be. The old site did not convey the right image for the framework. MooTools was never meant to be a script that you drop in and paste some code from an example to add some crazy effects to your site, even though you know nothing about JavaScript. It is a framework for javascript developers. If that makes us sound eliteist, well then so be it, but understand that's not our goal. That being said, we also understand that no matter what we tell anyone, we cant force them to learn anything, and many people will use the tools we develop the wrong way... that's fine, they are open source for a reason.
3. What's up with the forum?
We like the mailing list format a lot better, as it's what all developers around the world use, and we can view it from our own mail clients at our leisure. Please stop asking us to bring the forum back, or feel free to switch to another framework that provides their users with an official bulletin-board like forum software... (keep in mind, all other frameworks, including jQuery use a mailing list. None have an official forum, and none of their users complain about it)
That being said, there are other solutions. If you've never heard of Nabble, check it out. http://n2.nabble.com/MooTools-Users- f660466.html It's basically a forum interface for the mailing list. Also, the guys over at mooforum.net are doing a great job, better than we could ever have done with the mootools forum, so sign up there and use it instead of the mailing list if you wish.
To the developers and moderators at mooforum.net, if you ever need anything, or think there is an important post any of the MooTools developers should check out, please let me know via email, and i will get right back to you. Thanks for all your hard work over there, we all appreciate it.
2. What's up with the blog?
Valerio and I have spent this entire week since Fronteers 2008 (more on that in a minute) working on the new MooTools blog. Mephisto has given us tons of problems, and cannot be styled properly like the rest of the site so we had to ditch it. This was no easy task, but as soon as it is done, (by the end of this week) I myself and the other developers will be posting to it regularly with more updates / useful information. We are actually ditching all the subdomains for simpler alternatives, and a faster, less problematic site. Check for updates at mootools.net later this week.
3. Fronteers what?
Last week I spoke at a conference in Amsterdam called Fronteers about Object Oriented Design in JavaScript, and how we use some principles in MooTools. Valerio attended the conference with me, and while we were there, we talked about MooTools... a lot.
4. What about other frameworks?
As the other speakers / developers at Fronteers and i chatted about, we are all on the same team! We love the other frameworks, and the contributions they make to the JavaScript community, and we want all of you to also. We are not competing with any of them. If you think jQuery is better suited for your current project, by all means, use it! It is a well tested, well rounded framework. I also want the framework wars to stop. If the developers are all cool with each other, then so should the users be. No more bashing other frameworks, okay everyone?
5. What's next?
We are working to release 1.2.1 very very soon. The biggest issues that need to be addressed lie in Class.js, but for anyone who has looked at and understood the code, it's not exactly trivial stuff. I have been working on rewriting Class.js to work again in Safari2, and work in Opera without an ugly hack. I'll let you know when we are finished and everything is tested. 1.2.1 will also contain many other bug fixes, and at this point, will be a drop in replacement for 1.2. There is one Reqeust issue which im looking into that might require us to make a minor change to the API. If this does happen, I will let you know how to address the minor change when we release.
After 1.2.1, we will be developing MooTools 1.3. If there are any other changes we decide must be released, we may release one or two more minor releases, but we will decide if they are necessary as we develop. 1.3 will include a few new features, though we havent decided on them definitely yet. I will make some blog posts about new stuff as it's finished, and when you can expect to start using it.
If the blog was live, i would have made this a post, but i figure this is good enough to give the MooTools users a little official insight into what's been going on, and what's happening. If there are any other questions that i didnt answer here, let me know and i'll address those too.
I want to thank all of the dev team for what they do and all of the
free work hours they put in. I use mootools in just about all of my
projects and my clients are stunned at what it can do. It is truly a
professional product. While I do miss the official forum, mainly
because everything was in 1 place (the mootools.net site) and it was
awesome as far as entering/viewing code (tab key worked!), I do
understand your decision. It would be nice if a link could be added
to the 'Community' section for the unofficial forum (mooforum.net). I
have nothing to do with the site other than I view it occasionally.
Again, thank you guys.
These are exactly the post we want to see on a regular basis on the
blog... (when it's live again.. :))
Just to stay informed what's going and to see the progress that's
being made.
thx for the mooforum.net part, we will come back to it if needed.
Also if anyone has any suggestions for mooforum.net feel free to ask
(we are normally open minded...)
On Sep 17, 3:18 am, CroNiX <cronix...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It would be nice if a link could be added
> to the 'Community' section for the unofficial forum (mooforum.net).
dakMoR, I'll see what I can do to get you a link on the frontpage this week (along with a link to Aaron's book...) Hopefully that will drive a bit more traffic your way. :)
I think there's room for improvement in Mooforum before it's linked in the frontpage. I would like to contribute to the project, why not create a mailing list, like mooforum-dev?
On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 9:29 AM, daKmoR <daK...@lesspixel.com> wrote:
> yeah that's great... but I thought something more like a link on the > front page...
> Community > * MooTools Users Group > * IRC Channel > * unofficial mooforum
> I think there's room for improvement in Mooforum before it's linked > in the frontpage. I would like to contribute to the project, why not > create a mailing list, like mooforum-dev?
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 9:29 AM, daKmoR <daK...@lesspixel.com> wrote:
> yeah that's great... but I thought something more like a link on the > front page...
> Community > * MooTools Users Group > * IRC Channel > * unofficial mooforum
> daKmoR, that's exactly what I was talking about adding... ;)
> As Guillermo said, maybe it could use a few improvements... like a
> smaller header with less (or no) pictures of cows in it? :P hehe
> On Sep 17, 2008, at 2:32 PM, Guillermo Rauch wrote:
> > I think there's room for improvement in Mooforum before it's linked
> > in the frontpage. I would like to contribute to the project, why not
> > create a mailing list, like mooforum-dev?
> > On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 9:29 AM, daKmoR <daK...@lesspixel.com> wrote:
> > yeah that's great... but I thought something more like a link on the
> > front page...
> > Community
> > * MooTools Users Group
> > * IRC Channel
> > * unofficial mooforum
I don't think there was much issue with the move to google groups. I
agree that they work good. I think the main issue was the removal of
the forum completely and feeling a loss of all that information. Now
that its back at least in a read-only manner still provides useful
information and solutions that otherwise might have been lost in the
void. Its been helpful in trying to point out examples to my
developers and superiors as I made the push for my company to move to
Mootools. Which we have btw. After the first of the year you will have
another big company to put on your homepage that uses Mootools (think
Seattle and Gates).
I love the new site. Its simplistic and to the point. Everything
Mootools is about.
Thanks for all the hard work.
On Sep 17, 8:48 am, rpflo <rpflore...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 17, 7:02 am, Tom Occhino <tomocch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > daKmoR, that's exactly what I was talking about adding... ;)
> > As Guillermo said, maybe it could use a few improvements... like a
> > smaller header with less (or no) pictures of cows in it? :P hehe
> > On Sep 17, 2008, at 2:32 PM, Guillermo Rauch wrote:
> > > I think there's room for improvement in Mooforum before it's linked
> > > in the frontpage. I would like to contribute to the project, why not
> > > create a mailing list, like mooforum-dev?
> > > On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 9:29 AM, daKmoR <daK...@lesspixel.com> wrote:
> > > yeah that's great... but I thought something more like a link on the
> > > front page...
> I don't think there was much issue with the move to google groups. I > agree that they work good. I think the main issue was the removal of > the forum completely and feeling a loss of all that information. Now > that its back at least in a read-only manner still provides useful > information and solutions that otherwise might have been lost in the > void. Its been helpful in trying to point out examples to my > developers and superiors as I made the push for my company to move to > Mootools. Which we have btw. After the first of the year you will have > another big company to put on your homepage that uses Mootools (think > Seattle and Gates).
> I love the new site. Its simplistic and to the point. Everything > Mootools is about.
On Sep 17, 2:32 pm, "Guillermo Rauch" <rau...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think there's room for improvement in Mooforum before it's linked in the
> frontpage. I would like to contribute to the project, why not create a
> mailing list, like mooforum-dev?
that would be great, but I would suggest as it's all about the forum
to use the forum itself to discuss about it.
There could be a separate section or an even hidden section only seen
by those who are in a certain group...
And the best part you don't have to check any other page...
if you want to get emails every time somethings new gets posted you
can even subscript to a section or to
a specific thread...
but if you don't want to the use the forum - yeah then I would create
a mailing list...
just let me know.. :p
> As the other speakers / developers at Fronteers and i chatted about,
> we are all on the same team! We love the other frameworks, and the
> contributions they make to the JavaScript community, and we want all
> of you to also. We are not competing with any of them. If you think
> jQuery is better suited for your current project, by all means, use
> it! It is a well tested, well rounded framework. I also want the
> framework wars to stop. If the developers are all cool with each
> other, then so should the users be. No more bashing other frameworks,
> okay everyone?
Thanks for the kind words Tom. The same to you Valerio. I hope you
know that you know that the feeling is mutual and I have the utmost
respect for your work.
The trouble is Tom all you're really achieving now is development for
yourselves. Users and developers have been alienated, information is
difficult to find and help is not forthcoming. If you're happy writing
code for yourself that's fine but until you start viewing your users
with a degree of respect instead of an obvious contempt your
'framework' will go nowhere.
(I use 'framework' loosely as the core alters radically without
backward compatibility).
In my opinion many of Mootools decisions appear to be incredibly
naive
On Sep 17, 1:16 am, Tom Occhino <tomocch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm writing this post to the mailing list to inform the MooTools
> community about what the developers have been doing these days, and
> what is to come for the framework. We are all getting tired of
> answering the same questions over and over again, so I hope this
> clears some things up and we can stop seeing the same thing, over and
> over and over again in the mailing list.
> 1. What's up with the site?
> Many of you think we discarded the old MooTools site in exchange for a
> bland boring alternative. The reason we've upgraded the site to the
> new beautiful, simple, not-flashy-at-all site is because we want
> people to understand what MooTools is before they attempt to use it.
> We love the new site, and it's exactly what we want it to be. The old
> site did not convey the right image for the framework. MooTools was
> never meant to be a script that you drop in and paste some code from
> an example to add some crazy effects to your site, even though you
> know nothing about JavaScript. It is a framework for javascript
> developers. If that makes us sound eliteist, well then so be it, but
> understand that's not our goal. That being said, we also understand
> that no matter what we tell anyone, we cant force them to learn
> anything, and many people will use the tools we develop the wrong
> way... that's fine, they are open source for a reason.
> 3. What's up with the forum?
> We like the mailing list format a lot better, as it's what all
> developers around the world use, and we can view it from our own mail
> clients at our leisure. Please stop asking us to bring the forum
> back, or feel free to switch to another framework that provides their
> users with an official bulletin-board like forum software... (keep in
> mind, all other frameworks, including jQuery use a mailing list. None
> have an official forum, and none of their users complain about it)
> That being said, there are other solutions. If you've never heard of
> Nabble, check it out. http://n2.nabble.com/MooTools-Users- > f660466.html It's basically a forum interface for the mailing list.
> Also, the guys over at mooforum.net are doing a great job, better than
> we could ever have done with the mootools forum, so sign up there and
> use it instead of the mailing list if you wish.
> To the developers and moderators at mooforum.net, if you ever need
> anything, or think there is an important post any of the MooTools
> developers should check out, please let me know via email, and i will
> get right back to you. Thanks for all your hard work over there, we
> all appreciate it.
> 2. What's up with the blog?
> Valerio and I have spent this entire week since Fronteers 2008 (more
> on that in a minute) working on the new MooTools blog. Mephisto has
> given us tons of problems, and cannot be styled properly like the rest
> of the site so we had to ditch it. This was no easy task, but as soon
> as it is done, (by the end of this week) I myself and the other
> developers will be posting to it regularly with more updates / useful
> information. We are actually ditching all the subdomains for simpler
> alternatives, and a faster, less problematic site. Check for updates
> at mootools.net later this week.
> 3. Fronteers what?
> Last week I spoke at a conference in Amsterdam called Fronteers about
> Object Oriented Design in JavaScript, and how we use some principles
> in MooTools. Valerio attended the conference with me, and while we
> were there, we talked about MooTools... a lot.
> 4. What about other frameworks?
> As the other speakers / developers at Fronteers and i chatted about,
> we are all on the same team! We love the other frameworks, and the
> contributions they make to the JavaScript community, and we want all
> of you to also. We are not competing with any of them. If you think
> jQuery is better suited for your current project, by all means, use
> it! It is a well tested, well rounded framework. I also want the
> framework wars to stop. If the developers are all cool with each
> other, then so should the users be. No more bashing other frameworks,
> okay everyone?
> 5. What's next?
> We are working to release 1.2.1 very very soon. The biggest issues
> that need to be addressed lie in Class.js, but for anyone who has
> looked at and understood the code, it's not exactly trivial stuff. I
> have been working on rewriting Class.js to work again in Safari2, and
> work in Opera without an ugly hack. I'll let you know when we are
> finished and everything is tested. 1.2.1 will also contain many other
> bug fixes, and at this point, will be a drop in replacement for 1.2.
> There is one Reqeust issue which im looking into that might require us
> to make a minor change to the API. If this does happen, I will let
> you know how to address the minor change when we release.
> After 1.2.1, we will be developing MooTools 1.3. If there are any
> other changes we decide must be released, we may release one or two
> more minor releases, but we will decide if they are necessary as we
> develop. 1.3 will include a few new features, though we havent
> decided on them definitely yet. I will make some blog posts about new
> stuff as it's finished, and when you can expect to start using it.
> If the blog was live, i would have made this a post, but i figure this
> is good enough to give the MooTools users a little official insight
> into what's been going on, and what's happening. If there are any
> other questions that i didnt answer here, let me know and i'll address
> those too.
The elitism prevalent among some of the developers is dragging down my
opinion of Mootools. Mootools like all open source projects is only
as strong as its user base. By helping to educate your users you
potentially gain more developers in the future, by disregarding their
questions and comments you lose users and ensure the stagnation of the
project.
If people are complaining about the design of the site... listen.
If they are complaining about the removal of the forums... listen.
If they want more demos... listen.
If there are undocumented methods... document them.
http://mootools.lighthouseapp.com/projects/2706/tickets/238-unlink-un... (Open for over two months!)
One bad impression with an emerging developer is enough to make them
decide to use a less elegant javascript framework (ahem... Prototype).
*jumps in his soap box and sails away to the golden shores of jQuery*
On Oct 1, 2:30 am, MX3Design <mx3des...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The trouble is Tom all you're really achieving now is development for
> yourselves. Users and developers have been alienated, information is
> difficult to find and help is not forthcoming. If you're happy writing
> code for yourself that's fine but until you start viewing your users
> with a degree of respect instead of an obvious contempt your
> 'framework' will go nowhere.
> (I use 'framework' loosely as the core alters radically without
> backward compatibility).
> In my opinion many of Mootools decisions appear to be incredibly
> naive
> On Sep 17, 1:16 am, Tom Occhino <tomocch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm writing this post to the mailing list to inform the MooTools
> > community about what the developers have been doing these days, and
> > what is to come for the framework. We are all getting tired of
> > answering the same questions over and over again, so I hope this
> > clears some things up and we can stop seeing the same thing, over and
> > over and over again in the mailing list.
> > 1. What's up with the site?
> > Many of you think we discarded the old MooTools site in exchange for a
> > bland boring alternative. The reason we've upgraded the site to the
> > new beautiful, simple, not-flashy-at-all site is because we want
> > people to understand what MooTools is before they attempt to use it.
> > We love the new site, and it's exactly what we want it to be. The old
> > site did not convey the right image for the framework. MooTools was
> > never meant to be a script that you drop in and paste some code from
> > an example to add some crazy effects to your site, even though you
> > know nothing about JavaScript. It is a framework for javascript
> > developers. If that makes us sound eliteist, well then so be it, but
> > understand that's not our goal. That being said, we also understand
> > that no matter what we tell anyone, we cant force them to learn
> > anything, and many people will use the tools we develop the wrong
> > way... that's fine, they are open source for a reason.
> > 3. What's up with the forum?
> > We like the mailing list format a lot better, as it's what all
> > developers around the world use, and we can view it from our own mail
> > clients at our leisure. Please stop asking us to bring the forum
> > back, or feel free to switch to another framework that provides their
> > users with an official bulletin-board like forum software... (keep in
> > mind, all other frameworks, including jQuery use a mailing list. None
> > have an official forum, and none of their users complain about it)
> > That being said, there are other solutions. If you've never heard of
> > Nabble, check it out. http://n2.nabble.com/MooTools-Users- > > f660466.html It's basically a forum interface for the mailing list.
> > Also, the guys over at mooforum.net are doing a great job, better than
> > we could ever have done with the mootools forum, so sign up there and
> > use it instead of the mailing list if you wish.
> > To the developers and moderators at mooforum.net, if you ever need
> > anything, or think there is an important post any of the MooTools
> > developers should check out, please let me know via email, and i will
> > get right back to you. Thanks for all your hard work over there, we
> > all appreciate it.
> > 2. What's up with the blog?
> > Valerio and I have spent this entire week since Fronteers 2008 (more
> > on that in a minute) working on the new MooTools blog. Mephisto has
> > given us tons of problems, and cannot be styled properly like the rest
> > of the site so we had to ditch it. This was no easy task, but as soon
> > as it is done, (by the end of this week) I myself and the other
> > developers will be posting to it regularly with more updates / useful
> > information. We are actually ditching all the subdomains for simpler
> > alternatives, and a faster, less problematic site. Check for updates
> > at mootools.net later this week.
> > 3. Fronteers what?
> > Last week I spoke at a conference in Amsterdam called Fronteers about
> > Object Oriented Design in JavaScript, and how we use some principles
> > in MooTools. Valerio attended the conference with me, and while we
> > were there, we talked about MooTools... a lot.
> > 4. What about other frameworks?
> > As the other speakers / developers at Fronteers and i chatted about,
> > we are all on the same team! We love the other frameworks, and the
> > contributions they make to the JavaScript community, and we want all
> > of you to also. We are not competing with any of them. If you think
> > jQuery is better suited for your current project, by all means, use
> > it! It is a well tested, well rounded framework. I also want the
> > framework wars to stop. If the developers are all cool with each
> > other, then so should the users be. No more bashing other frameworks,
> > okay everyone?
> > 5. What's next?
> > We are working to release 1.2.1 very very soon. The biggest issues
> > that need to be addressed lie in Class.js, but for anyone who has
> > looked at and understood the code, it's not exactly trivial stuff. I
> > have been working on rewriting Class.js to work again in Safari2, and
> > work in Opera without an ugly hack. I'll let you know when we are
> > finished and everything is tested. 1.2.1 will also contain many other
> > bug fixes, and at this point, will be a drop in replacement for 1.2.
> > There is one Reqeust issue which im looking into that might require us
> > to make a minor change to the API. If this does happen, I will let
> > you know how to address the minor change when we release.
> > After 1.2.1, we will be developing MooTools 1.3. If there are any
> > other changes we decide must be released, we may release one or two
> > more minor releases, but we will decide if they are necessary as we
> > develop. 1.3 will include a few new features, though we havent
> > decided on them definitely yet. I will make some blog posts about new
> > stuff as it's finished, and when you can expect to start using it.
> > If the blog was live, i would have made this a post, but i figure this
> > is good enough to give the MooTools users a little official insight
> > into what's been going on, and what's happening. If there are any
> > other questions that i didnt answer here, let me know and i'll address
> > those too.
> > Thanks all, and happy moo-ing,
> > - Tom Occhino
..and if they want a framework which doesn't alter beyond recognition
between versions... LISTEN
How many design businesses do you seriously think will waste time
rewriting hundreds of scripts with each version release? The MT team
need to work in the real world instead of providing a totally
ridiculous, impractical and stupid model.
I haven't used MT since the 1.2 release, nor have any of my team. It's
unlikely we'll use it again unless a backward compatibility assurance
is both given and provided.
On Oct 3, 11:33 am, MX3Design <mx3des...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ..and if they want a framework which doesn't alter beyond recognition
> between versions... LISTEN
> How many design businesses do you seriously think will waste time
> rewriting hundreds of scripts with each version release? The MT team
> need to work in the real world instead of providing a totally
> ridiculous, impractical and stupid model.
> I haven't used MT since the 1.2 release, nor have any of my team. It's
> unlikely we'll use it again unless a backward compatibility assurance
> is both given and provided.
Just curious, what are your contributions to make all those things
happen? The last time when I looked for the license, Mootools was open
source and I'm sure that contributions are welcome.
@Reinhard
If you look through the old forums you'll find I posted solutions and
code snippets, admittedly not much but you'll find some. You'll find
that if people are helped they are far more likely in turn to help,
that's human nature. As an example of how to care for, and how to
create a real community take a look through these forums:
http://expressionengine.com/forums/ there is very little bickering or
unpleasantness, everyone just concentrates on answering questions and
sharing solutions.
@Ivan
That's a typical Mootools response. Arrogant, unfriendly and unhelpful
and that about sums up my experience of the Mootools community.
You guys go and play with your toy. There's nothing I've seen Mootools
do that can't be realised in a different framework just ask yourselves
this:
1. What is the point in developing a product that few people use?
2. Why are few people using it?
> 1. What is the point in developing a product that few people use?
Again... for our own personal use
> 2. Why are few people using it?
Because it doesn't fit their needs.
We develop MooTools for ourselves... if others find it useful, awesome, we encourage them to use it as well. Why is it so hard for you to understand this.
MX3Design, I hate to have to say this, but please, refrain from posting to the mailing list anymore. Stop calling our users arrogant and unfriendly, and stop picking fights for no reason. If you are not happy here, no one is forcing you to stay. Your comments have been neither constructive, nor helpful. We all have full time jobs, and a ton of other things going on, and don't have time to cater to your every whim.
That being said, to the MooTools users out there who do find the framework useful... I promise I'll always work my hardest to incorporate the best code and all of my knowledge into the framework as I possibly can. Even though I'm not getting paid to put 30+ hours a week into this, I do it because I love it, and I am committed to providing the best possible toolkit for myself, and those who find it useful.
Seriously... we are not at war with each other, or with any other framework. How come all the framework authors understand this, but seemingly, none of the users get it?
this is useless... please tom, refrain yourself with dealing with such comments.... go on, keep coding and nevermind this...
Reinhard, Im no mootools developer, im just a regular mooUser.... arrogant??/ Why? Because Im not whining like you guys do??? stop it... ask smth, you will get a response... hey.. I have found ALL MY ANSWERS here.... Ive never cared if there is or isnt an "official forum" or the like... just ask, you will get a response...
I Love mootools, im right now comparing it to other frameworks as well... I guess I will stick to mootools mainly, and will bring/transcode everything I find (and can) in other frameworks to make it useful in mootools as well... I give a d... if theres a forum or not.. this is as good as anything else to share ideas/questions or anyting
I will stop posting but I'm not picking a fight for no reason: The
Mootools project has wasted a lot of my businesses time, hundreds of
hours of development. Why? You moved the goal posts, by not factoring
in backward compatibility you threw the principles of IoC out of the
window. Defining MT as a framework is a blatant misrepresentation.
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