What's going on in MooTools...
Tom Occhino
Many of you think we discarded the old MooTools site in exchange for a bland boring alternative. The reason we've upgraded the site to the new beautiful, simple, not-flashy-at-all site is because we want people to understand what MooTools is before they attempt to use it. We love the new site, and it's exactly what we want it to be. The old site did not convey the right image for the framework. MooTools was never meant to be a script that you drop in and paste some code from an example to add some crazy effects to your site, even though you know nothing about JavaScript. It is a framework for javascript developers. If that makes us sound eliteist, well then so be it, but understand that's not our goal. That being said, we also understand that no matter what we tell anyone, we cant force them to learn anything, and many people will use the tools we develop the wrong way... that's fine, they are open source for a reason.
We like the mailing list format a lot better, as it's what all developers around the world use, and we can view it from our own mail clients at our leisure. Please stop asking us to bring the forum back, or feel free to switch to another framework that provides their users with an official bulletin-board like forum software... (keep in mind, all other frameworks, including jQuery use a mailing list. None have an official forum, and none of their users complain about it)
That being said, there are other solutions. If you've never heard of Nabble, check it out. http://n2.nabble.com/MooTools-Users-f660466.html It's basically a forum interface for the mailing list. Also, the guys over at mooforum.net are doing a great job, better than we could ever have done with the mootools forum, so sign up there and use it instead of the mailing list if you wish.
To the developers and moderators at mooforum.net, if you ever need anything, or think there is an important post any of the MooTools developers should check out, please let me know via email, and i will get right back to you. Thanks for all your hard work over there, we all appreciate it.
Valerio and I have spent this entire week since Fronteers 2008 (more on that in a minute) working on the new MooTools blog. Mephisto has given us tons of problems, and cannot be styled properly like the rest of the site so we had to ditch it. This was no easy task, but as soon as it is done, (by the end of this week) I myself and the other developers will be posting to it regularly with more updates / useful information. We are actually ditching all the subdomains for simpler alternatives, and a faster, less problematic site. Check for updates at mootools.net later this week.
Last week I spoke at a conference in Amsterdam called Fronteers about Object Oriented Design in JavaScript, and how we use some principles in MooTools. Valerio attended the conference with me, and while we were there, we talked about MooTools... a lot.
As the other speakers / developers at Fronteers and i chatted about, we are all on the same team! We love the other frameworks, and the contributions they make to the JavaScript community, and we want all of you to also. We are not competing with any of them. If you think jQuery is better suited for your current project, by all means, use it! It is a well tested, well rounded framework. I also want the framework wars to stop. If the developers are all cool with each other, then so should the users be. No more bashing other frameworks, okay everyone?
We are working to release 1.2.1 very very soon. The biggest issues that need to be addressed lie in Class.js, but for anyone who has looked at and understood the code, it's not exactly trivial stuff. I have been working on rewriting Class.js to work again in Safari2, and work in Opera without an ugly hack. I'll let you know when we are finished and everything is tested. 1.2.1 will also contain many other bug fixes, and at this point, will be a drop in replacement for 1.2. There is one Reqeust issue which im looking into that might require us to make a minor change to the API. If this does happen, I will let you know how to address the minor change when we release.
After 1.2.1, we will be developing MooTools 1.3. If there are any other changes we decide must be released, we may release one or two more minor releases, but we will decide if they are necessary as we develop. 1.3 will include a few new features, though we havent decided on them definitely yet. I will make some blog posts about new stuff as it's finished, and when you can expect to start using it.
Tom Occhino
On Sep 17, 2008, at 2:16 AM, Tom Occhino wrote:
> a ton of crap...
CroNiX
free work hours they put in. I use mootools in just about all of my
projects and my clients are stunned at what it can do. It is truly a
professional product. While I do miss the official forum, mainly
because everything was in 1 place (the mootools.net site) and it was
awesome as far as entering/viewing code (tab key worked!), I do
understand your decision. It would be nice if a link could be added
to the 'Community' section for the unofficial forum (mooforum.net). I
have nothing to do with the site other than I view it occasionally.
Again, thank you guys.
-CroNiX
daKmoR
blog... (when it's live again.. :))
Just to stay informed what's going and to see the progress that's
being made.
thx for the mooforum.net part, we will come back to it if needed.
Also if anyone has any suggestions for mooforum.net feel free to ask
(we are normally open minded...)
On Sep 17, 3:18 am, CroNiX <cronix...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It would be nice if a link could be added
> to the 'Community' section for the unofficial forum (mooforum.net).
Thomas Aylott
links to:
Attention: The forum is now read-only. Please see the MooTools
Development Wiki for current support options.
http://github.com/mootools/mootools-core/wikis/support
> What about Forums?
> There are no official MooTools forums.
>
> There are a number of unofficial places where you can discuss
> MooTools and ask for support.
>
> Unofficial MooForum
> Why no official forum?
>
"Unofficial MooForum" links to "mooforum.net"
All support options are listed on that page. All links to support
options to link to this wiki page.
—Thomas Aylott / subtleGradient
Tom Occhino
week (along with a link to Aaron's book...) Hopefully that will drive
a bit more traffic your way. :)
daKmoR
front page...
Community
* MooTools Users Group
* IRC Channel
* unofficial mooforum
it's my wish... just let me dream... :)
Guillermo Rauch
Tom Occhino
rpflo
chris...@gmail.com
agree that they work good. I think the main issue was the removal of
the forum completely and feeling a loss of all that information. Now
that its back at least in a read-only manner still provides useful
information and solutions that otherwise might have been lost in the
void. Its been helpful in trying to point out examples to my
developers and superiors as I made the push for my company to move to
Mootools. Which we have btw. After the first of the year you will have
another big company to put on your homepage that uses Mootools (think
Seattle and Gates).
I love the new site. Its simplistic and to the point. Everything
Mootools is about.
Thanks for all the hard work.
Thomas Aylott
The goal was just to make it readonly and move new discussion over to
the groups.
We'd been having some server issues which is what prompted the need to
move off our box for the most part.
—Thomas Aylott / subtleGradient
daKmoR
> I think there's room for improvement in Mooforum before it's linked in the
> frontpage. I would like to contribute to the project, why not create a
> mailing list, like mooforum-dev?
to use the forum itself to discuss about it.
There could be a separate section or an even hidden section only seen
by those who are in a certain group...
And the best part you don't have to check any other page...
if you want to get emails every time somethings new gets posted you
can even subscript to a section or to
a specific thread...
but if you don't want to the use the forum - yeah then I would create
a mailing list...
just let me know.. :p
Rey Bango
> As the other speakers / developers at Fronteers and i chatted about,
> we are all on the same team! We love the other frameworks, and the
> contributions they make to the JavaScript community, and we want all
> of you to also. We are not competing with any of them. If you think
> jQuery is better suited for your current project, by all means, use
> it! It is a well tested, well rounded framework. I also want the
> framework wars to stop. If the developers are all cool with each
> other, then so should the users be. No more bashing other frameworks,
> okay everyone?
know that you know that the feeling is mutual and I have the utmost
respect for your work.
Rey...
jQuery Project
MX3Design
yourselves. Users and developers have been alienated, information is
difficult to find and help is not forthcoming. If you're happy writing
code for yourself that's fine but until you start viewing your users
with a degree of respect instead of an obvious contempt your
'framework' will go nowhere.
(I use 'framework' loosely as the core alters radically without
backward compatibility).
In my opinion many of Mootools decisions appear to be incredibly
naive
Iván N Paz
>
> The trouble is Tom all you're really achieving now is development for
> yourselves. Users and developers have been alienated, information is
Will this ever stop? :-P
AwesomeSauce
The elitism prevalent among some of the developers is dragging down my
opinion of Mootools. Mootools like all open source projects is only
as strong as its user base. By helping to educate your users you
potentially gain more developers in the future, by disregarding their
questions and comments you lose users and ensure the stagnation of the
project.
If people are complaining about the design of the site... listen.
If they are complaining about the removal of the forums... listen.
If they want more demos... listen.
If there are undocumented methods... document them.
http://mootools.lighthouseapp.com/projects/2706/tickets/238-unlink-undocumented
(Open for over two months!)
One bad impression with an emerging developer is enough to make them
decide to use a less elegant javascript framework (ahem... Prototype).
*jumps in his soap box and sails away to the golden shores of jQuery*
MX3Design
between versions... LISTEN
How many design businesses do you seriously think will waste time
rewriting hundreds of scripts with each version release? The MT team
need to work in the real world instead of providing a totally
ridiculous, impractical and stupid model.
I haven't used MT since the 1.2 release, nor have any of my team. It's
unlikely we'll use it again unless a backward compatibility assurance
is both given and provided.
reinhard
happen? The last time when I looked for the license, Mootools was open
source and I'm sure that contributions are welcome.
--
Reinhard
Iván N Paz
guys, remember, this list is not the right place for this, redirect
all your complaints to mootools...@googlegroups.com
MX3Design
If you look through the old forums you'll find I posted solutions and
code snippets, admittedly not much but you'll find some. You'll find
that if people are helped they are far more likely in turn to help,
that's human nature. As an example of how to care for, and how to
create a real community take a look through these forums:
http://expressionengine.com/forums/ there is very little bickering or
unpleasantness, everyone just concentrates on answering questions and
sharing solutions.
@Ivan
That's a typical Mootools response. Arrogant, unfriendly and unhelpful
and that about sums up my experience of the Mootools community.
You guys go and play with your toy. There's nothing I've seen Mootools
do that can't be realised in a different framework just ask yourselves
this:
1. What is the point in developing a product that few people use?
2. Why are few people using it?
Tom Occhino
Again... for our own personal use
> 2. Why are few people using it?
Because it doesn't fit their needs.
We develop MooTools for ourselves... if others find it useful,
awesome, we encourage them to use it as well. Why is it so hard for
you to understand this.
MX3Design, I hate to have to say this, but please, refrain from
posting to the mailing list anymore. Stop calling our users arrogant
and unfriendly, and stop picking fights for no reason. If you are not
happy here, no one is forcing you to stay. Your comments have been
neither constructive, nor helpful. We all have full time jobs, and a
ton of other things going on, and don't have time to cater to your
every whim.
That being said, to the MooTools users out there who do find the
framework useful... I promise I'll always work my hardest to
incorporate the best code and all of my knowledge into the framework
as I possibly can. Even though I'm not getting paid to put 30+ hours
a week into this, I do it because I love it, and I am committed to
providing the best possible toolkit for myself, and those who find it
useful.
Seriously... we are not at war with each other, or with any other
framework. How come all the framework authors understand this, but
seemingly, none of the users get it?
Iván N Paz
comments.... go on, keep coding and nevermind this...
Reinhard, Im no mootools developer, im just a regular mooUser....
arrogant??/ Why? Because Im not whining like you guys do??? stop it...
ask smth, you will get a response... hey.. I have found ALL MY ANSWERS
here.... Ive never cared if there is or isnt an "official forum" or
the like... just ask, you will get a response...
I Love mootools, im right now comparing it to other frameworks as
well... I guess I will stick to mootools mainly, and will
bring/transcode everything I find (and can) in other frameworks to
make it useful in mootools as well... I give a d... if theres a forum
or not.. this is as good as anything else to share ideas/questions or
anyting
STOP THE WHINING ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!
MX3Design
Mootools project has wasted a lot of my businesses time, hundreds of
hours of development. Why? You moved the goal posts, by not factoring
in backward compatibility you threw the principles of IoC out of the
window. Defining MT as a framework is a blatant misrepresentation.
Iván N Paz
MX3Design
Wolfe Stuff
http://digitarald.de/journal/38150523/mootools-1-1-to-1-2-compatibility-layer/
nutron
Just wanted to throw in the link for backwards compatibility layer that has been floating around since 1.2:
http://digitarald.de/journal/38150523/mootools-1-1-to-1-2-compatibility-layer/
View this message in context: Re: What's going on in MooTools...
Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
CroNiX
The following quote is from Derek Jones, the main developer of
CodeIgniter, regarding criticism of CI. Very similar to a lot of what
is going on with mootools....
--- start quote ---
The problem here is that some individuals think that we need to
share their priorities, and none other. And when we do not share their
priorities, they want to know what our priorities are so they can
argue with us about them. We will not be handing out wrenches and
hammers to people just because they stamp their feet and tell us what
great builders they are. We are not accountable, nor should be
expected to stop and look at everything you build, and comment in
detail on why it’s not something we want to use, or doesn’t fit with
our goals for the framework. We have the pleasant luxury of building
the community that we strive for, and not to try to pander to every
audience or person.
We are artists. Not corporate hounds. We do not operate with org
charts, deadlines, or investor pressure. All of the highly talented
individuals at EllisLab work organically, with a clear view of the
destination, and no streets or road signs to micro-manage our path
there. Like it or not, that’s who EllisLab is, and it’s how we make
terrific products. That’s not changing. Essentially, you need to
decide whether you like what EllisLab produces, how we work, and
hopefully enjoy what’s being freely given to you.
We each have lives, careers, and families. Spending our time away
from those important things to read and reply to every single post is
not a realistic expectation that anyone should have from any of us.
Yes, us. You only see Derek Allard around the forums, but it’s quite
presumptuous to think that that means that he or Rick are the only
people reading and giving attention to CI.
Thankfully, the majority of the members of this community are
mature, reasonable people who we enjoy collaborating with. However, we
will not be tolerant of hostile and unproductive bad-mouthing of the
framework, Rick, Derek, or anyone at EllisLab on our own forums. If
you do not like the way we work, skip the unproductive negativity and
go join a community that is more inline with your needs (perhaps this
is why RoR has no public forums).
-- end quote --
CroNiX
AwesomeSauce
Mootools community would echo his sentiments.
The way this conversation has been handled is enough for me to stop
using Mootools I'm embarrassed to have my work associated with this
kind of mentality.
On Oct 3, 10:09 am, "Iván N Paz" <ivann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> great!!! byeee!!!!!! ;-)
reinhard
> MX3Designs comments WERE constructive and I dare say a MAJORITY of the
> Mootools community would echo his sentiments.
really helpful. For my taste this style lacks of appreciation that
some folks have dedicated thousands of hours of their spare time to
make Mootools happen.
--
Reinhard
nutron
I'd just like to say that any community has its fair share of people who
cannot conduct themselves in a civil manner. Rather than get too bent out of
shape when this stuff happens, I suggest that you just move on. I don't like
to see any member of our community leave and use another framework because
they encountered someone in the forums that rub them the wrong way.
Aaron
"If you can't say something nice, go help someone else."
-----
The MooTools Tutorial: http://www.mootorial.com www.mootorial.com
CNET Clientside: http://clientside.cnet.com clientside.cnet.com
--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/What%27s-going-on-in-MooTools...-tp1094017p1213105.html
Iván N Paz
tool/framework in orther to use it... really sad... (though I still
understand part of it)
For me.. I dont give a heck if the people around here are snob (not
that I have found anyone but the whiners themself)...
Mootools Its a great framework, better, worse, whatever... I just
happen to like it... a lot...
Would I care if most posts here are about *oh, I miss the forums*,
*oh, I NEED the forums* , '*Oh, you mootoolers are snobs*"..
etc......???????
Answer: NO, I dont give a damn, this is a pretty good framework aside
from all its users comments...
So, if you ever decide to stop using a framework.. JUST because its
community is (add whatever despective adjective here), man...... you
are just as lost as you could ever be....
About this post of mine:
On Oct 3, 10:09 am, "Iván N Paz" <ivann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> great!!! byeee!!!!!! ;-)
I just regret it, and would love to take it back... I just cant... I
was brought into it :-(
ps. Actually I would love to take back all of my posts regarding this
issue altogether... this is nonsense, and should be happening....
ps2. Most of the whiners... what is their claim???? Have they asked
for smth and havent gotten their answer or what????
tombmedia
states I'd like to see if there is some sort of legal action we can
take towards mootools for fraudulently advertising mootools as a
product when it is clearly a hobby for a select few individuals. I am
a businessman and can prove losses directly related to the bait and
switch that the mootools elite did when they figured mootools as a
product was too much work. It was initially toted as a production
level framework and with that there are certain expectations of the
team behind the product, which has totally come to light as being
immature, naive (as you've stated), and downright intentionally
malicious. I am located in Canada, and if anyone lives in any of the
countries that the mootool developers live in please contact me so
that we can pool our resources to see what we can do. My losses are in
the 5 digits and would be willing to spend at least that to teach this
kids why hobbies and business don't mix.
I already have my lawyer digging to see what kind of faults they may
have committed, I'm not to sure if anything can happen with the way
things are licensed, but I doubt these kids spent money on a lawyer
themselves.
Guillermo Rauch
Guillermo Rauch
nwhite
company I work for because it is production level. I was always
concerned about the level of support because there was no enterprise
package. However, I saw the ability of the community and the
robustness of the product and made the decision to use mootools. At no
time have I ever felt that there was a bait and switch by the
community. They core developers made it clear about the changes in
1.2, and as such a compatibility layer was written to make migration
easier. Tom spoke at Fronteer's in Amsterdam just recently about
mootools. Aaron just released a book. Mootools is not a company, not
yet at least and as such they have made no promises in supporting you
as an end user. The core team have made only one commitment that I am
aware of, that is that they are committed to the further improvement
of mootools. They have far exceeded my expectations on that promise.
I hear your frustration and desperation in your words. I hear that you
have suffered much loss. I have done some basic searches to find out
exactly what your problem is and I can't seem to find it. It seems to
come down to the lack of a community. If you have a specific issue, I
will personally see to it that we find a way minimize the "damages".
If its about the community I suggest that you leave in peace because
it will not change. Doesn't this mail list act similarly as a forum?
Have you not received responses to your questions and comments?
With regards to the lawsuit, you have nothing for a case. Goods were
supplied as-is. No contracts, no agreements. etc. This is open source,
if you don't like the model I highly recommend you find a vendor that
will take vast sums of your money. If you do proceed with the legal
issue, I will make sure that the Mootool developer have proper legal
representation.
Again if you have a specific problem with Mootools besides the
philosophy I would be happy to help you.
Thanks
tr0y
is responded to the same way, "We are focusing on developing the
framework and nothing else, we understand if that is not what you are
looking for, and we encourage to work with another if that is the
case."
As far as community, there is absolutely a core of dedicated
individuals beyond the devs who develop plugins, help people with
their problems and share solutions with each other.
I have found these people here in the groups, in the irc, and in the
forums. Most of my questions get answered between these sources and
searches. I think the idea of elitism is more real than the elitism
itself.
I don't have anything new to add, I suppose. I just want to echo what
I believe to be the most mature response from 'members' of the
community: keep up the good work devs, we are here for a top notch
library, and we don't expect anything else.
Thanks.
keif
thrown around a lot.
The problem is - jQuery is for designers. They tout that. They talk
about how easy it is to learn, and how friendly the community is.
MooTools never once made this claim. They set expectations very high -
we're not here to teach you javascript. They compiled tutorials on
javascript AND mootools (yay aaron's mootorial!). MooTools is a
framework for people who already have the basics under their belt, and
can read forum ruls, and understand that code snippets (and more so,
demo pages) get answers.
I point out jQuery, because it's the one I've seen most touted by
people who get fed up (as if it's a real threat? Is my virtual
mootools stock going down?) and "switch" only to sit on the board and
bitch about their scripts.
The problem is the treatment of "newbs" which still prevails. It would
behoove someone to start a "mootools-newbs" for the people who have no
idea what they're doing or asking - I'm looking at the script kiddies
that download a script and then say "why won't my site work with it"
and then expect everyone to pay attention to them.
Honestly, I think the CodeIgniter quote sinches it - the MooTools dev
team's priorities may not be yours. And they shouldn't be. You know
how long I've been bugging to get an alphaPNG fix added to MooTools?
They said no. Repeatedly. And I listened. I moved on. Sure, I cried
myself to bed that night because some one on the internet was brash
with me, but I realized something that night...
I'm a fucking grown up, shit doesn't always go my way, and I can make
it work for me, their decisions be damned. So I write my own classes
and effects. I write my own code. I make stuff that works in mootools
and jquery. (and, jquery pissed me off last night, so for today,
jquery sucks. Mootools will suck tomorrow when I have to rewrite the
alphapng fix).
This pissing and moaning befits prepubescent children. Tom, you want
to sue MooTools for being a free product that you choose to use? Do
you threaten lawsuits when your hamburger isn't like the picture, too?
Grow up, man up, and move along. There's a life lesson in there for
you.
This reminds me of when everyone chewed out ibolmo. Grow up and get
over it. Life goes on, we all still are artists. We take our lumps and
learn from it.
The end. :)
Rajeev J Sebastian
> in backward compatibility you threw the principles of IoC
IoC ... neither of the two expansions I know of fits this context ...
Inversion of Control ? design pattern applied to SCM ... GoF needs to
be notified ;)
International Olympic Committee ? ....oO
Regards
Rajeev J Sebastian
Rajeev J Sebastian
>
> I'm a fucking grown up, shit doesn't always go my way, and I can make
> it work for me, their decisions be damned. So I write my own classes
> and effects. I write my own code. I make stuff that works in mootools
> and jquery. (and, jquery pissed me off last night, so for today,
> jquery sucks. Mootools will suck tomorrow when I have to rewrite the
> alphapng fix).
By "alphapng" fix ... do you mean fixing transparency of PNG images on
IE ? CNET Javascript seems to have something for that ...
When the new forge opens up, you should be able to Build your own
mootools with these (and other plugins) ... assuming that you do mean
the IE PNG thing of course.
Regards
Rajeev J Sebastian
Rajeev J Sebastian
Your message was idiotic, in bad taste, has bad timing, and absolutely
useless (also you forgot to insert a lot of smileys).
This attempt at legal threats is seriously pathetic, especially coming
from a businessman.
Moreover, you are still free to continue using Mootools 1.11 or
whatever version that fits for you ... that should avoid your "5
digit" losses. Heck, you could make a lot of money maintaining
mootools 1.11 :))
Regards
Rajeev J Sebastian
nutron
Honestly, I think the CodeIgniter quote sinches it - the MooTools dev
team's priorities may not be yours. And they shouldn't be. You know
how long I've been bugging to get an alphaPNG fix added to MooTools?
They said no. Repeatedly. And I listened. I moved on. Sure, I cried
myself to bed that night because some one on the internet was brash
with me, but I realized something that night...
View this message in context: Re: What's going on in MooTools...
SilverTab
destructed overnight when 1.2 was released!...
Tom: If your 5 digits losses were caused by porting your script to
1.2... first, let me tell you that your employees are either slacking
or greatly overpaid... I ported a BUNCH of scripts from 1.11 to 1.2
and, while the first one took a bit more time, once you know what to
look for, and what to change, it took only a few minutes per
script... not to mention that no one forced you to upgrade...
I'm still not sure if this message should be taken seriously LOL...
you'd think a "businessman" such as yourself would know better than to
try and sue a free, open source script, provided AS IS, under the MIT
license... Seriously... next time you chose a framework, take a couple
of minutes to read the license... it might save you from a 5 digits
loss later...
On Oct 6, 1:48 pm, "Rajeev J Sebastian" <rajeev.sebast...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Your message was idiotic, in bad taste, has bad timing, and absolutely
> useless (also you forgot to insert a lot of smileys).
>
> This attempt at legal threats is seriously pathetic, especially coming
> from a businessman.
>
> Moreover, you are still free to continue using Mootools 1.11 or
> whatever version that fits for you ... that should avoid your "5
> digit" losses. Heck, you could make a lot of money maintaining
> mootools 1.11 :))
>
> Regards
> Rajeev J Sebastian
>
Paul Spencer
Add this to a CSS file or style tag:
.png24{filter:expression(applyPNGFilter(this))}
Add this to your javascript:
function applyPNGFilter(img) {
var t="images/a_pixel.png";
if( img.src != t ) {
var s=img.src;
img.src = t;
img.runtimeStyle.filter =
"progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.AlphaImageLoader(src='"+s
+"',sizingMethod='scale')";
}
}
You need a_pixel.png, the ubiquitous single transparent pixel and you
need to point the code to it.
To use it, just add class="png24" to any 24 bit image. It can be a
static image in the page, content loaded asynchronously or
programmatically generated content. All browsers except IE will
ignore the filter:expression in CSS and if you really want, you can
use an <!--[if IE 6]>...<![endif]--> around the CSS or stylesheet.
Cheers
Paul
On 6-Oct-08, at 2:08 PM, nutron wrote:
> Honestly, I think the CodeIgniter quote sinches it - the MooTools dev
> team's priorities may not be yours. And they shouldn't be. You know
> how long I've been bugging to get an alphaPNG fix added to MooTools?
> They said no. Repeatedly. And I listened. I moved on. Sure, I cried
> myself to bed that night because some one on the internet was brash
> with me, but I realized something that night...
>
> Just FYI:
>
> http://clientside.cnet.com/wiki/cnet-libraries/02-browser/01-fixpng
> The MooTools Tutorial: www.mootorial.com CNET Clientside:
> clientside.cnet.com
>
keif
@Rajeev - I do mean the IE6 suck ass need for on the fly PNG replacement.
I haven't checked out CNET's but mine is based off of Tobius's from the old
forum.
It does anything with a src$=.png (so images and inputs), inline CSS,
external CSS (except I recently discovered if you do an external CSS with
@import it won't traverse to those style sheets).
It also does background positioning, but not repeatable bacgrounds, and I
don't know if that'd account for all cases.
When I've got a couple more bugs kinked out I'll do a demo page.
-keif
zalun wrote:
>
> Offtopic@Paul,
> Your solution does not work with background images
> zalun
>
>
> Paul Spencer wrote:
>>
>>
>> FWIW, I've been using the following code for a couple of years:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> On 6-Oct-08, at 2:08 PM, nutron wrote:
>>
>>> Honestly, I think the CodeIgniter quote sinches it - the MooTools dev
>>> team's priorities may not be yours. And they shouldn't be. You know
>>> how long I've been bugging to get an alphaPNG fix added to MooTools?
>>> They said no. Repeatedly. And I listened. I moved on. Sure, I cried
>>
>
>
--
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Iván N Paz
Really guys... IE6 support has to DIE right now... personally I'm
considering not implementing a single hack to support it any
longer....
We, the developers and designers, have to end that NOW.....
MX3 Design
September 2008 IE6 browser stats:
w3c = 22.3%
thecounter.com = 36%
it's still being used a lot.
2008/10/16 Iván N Paz <ivan...@gmail.com>:
Iván N Paz
not join the cause to stop its usage.... what Im doing here is making
a "call to arms", join the fight, and FORCE people to upgrade... when
we FORCE the final user to upgrade, they will force their admins to
let them do it... we can do it not only by encouraging them to switch
browser, but to al LEAST upgrade IE..... its worth the try...
--
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Guillermo Rauch
A nice thought Ivan but...
September 2008 IE6 browser stats:
w3c = 22.3%
thecounter.com = 36%
it's still being used a lot.
Tom Occhino
nutron
Yes... its being used BECAUSE, we still support it... because we do
not join the cause to stop its usage.... what Im doing here is making
a "call to arms", join the fight, and FORCE people to upgrade... when
we FORCE the final user to upgrade, they will force their admins to
let them do it... we can do it not only by encouraging them to switch
browser, but to al LEAST upgrade IE..... its worth the try...
>
> A nice thought Ivan but...
> September 2008 IE6 browser stats:
>
> w3c = 22.3%
> thecounter.com = 36%
>
> it's still being used a lot.
>
>
> 2008/10/16 Iván N Paz <ivannpaz@...>:
>>
>> IE6 MUST DIE...
>>
>> Really guys... IE6 support has to DIE right now... personally I'm
>> considering not implementing a single hack to support it any
>> longer....
>>
>> We, the developers and designers, have to end that NOW.....
>>
>> >
>>
>
--
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www.ivanicus.com
View this message in context: Re: [OT] Re: What's going on in MooTools...
Iván N Paz
GOOD, thats the way to go!!! [<-- oh man,,, you really hate those
extra exclamations!, sorry about that]
@aaron:
My friend, I live in such country (Cuba, I think I'm the only cuban
here, which is pretty cool btw)... a very under-developed country...
trust me... internet explorer 6 is gone here 4EVER... ;-)
In general, IE6 is still used due to:
1. Ignorance (in the best sense): users that just dont know HOW to upgrade
2. Corp Rules: Enforced by corporations
Why are they still there? Because we still support it.. not just us,
the mootools community but the whole web[development && design] sector
as well.
Its time to STOP... there are over 100+ sites promoting it... what has
failed is the proposition to Switch (which is GOOD) but strikes fear
in a hell lotta people.... what about.... UPGRADE or SWITCH? Thats
less fearful, I guess...
I'm joining the parade on stopping IE6 usage... I'm just starting my
own personal site after 4 years owning my personal domain... (shame on
me!) I will do it from there in the meantime, so far, after reviewing
the logs and analytics reports.... do you know how many people used
IE6? NONE... I know my own mini-personal site is not reference for
this... I STILL have IE6 on my machine to test sites... and IE7 on
another... but its enough... I'm fed up with this...
Supporting IE6 is like supporting 800x600... its exactly the same...
how many NEW sites support 800x600? mmm.... about 1-3%??? How many of
you guys still build sites for 800x600??? [I know some still do it in
their personal sites, but really... do you still do it for the sites
you build for your clients?]
Maybe we cannot change the world, but we certainly can give it a small
push in the right direction...
</rant>
keif
I've had this argument MANY MANY times.
We say we can't upgrade IE6 because of this 20-30% of people who can't
won't/don't know.
But we *WILL* tell flash users they need to upgrade - and then wonder why
95% of Flash users are all using the most recent version.
We don't want to tell people "best viewed in" but people in IE6 should be
given a banner/message at the top of the site that basically explains
reasons why they should upgrade.
Or someone needs to write a global virus that targets IE6 and does nothing
but check if they can upgrade to IE7 and forwards them to the windows update
page.
Just sayin'
-keif
anutron wrote:
>
> Ivan, there are a LOT of reasons that IE6 is in use and why we, web
> developers can't do much about it. For starters, there are a lot of old
> computers out there, esp in developing countries. Go spend some time in
> S.E.
> Asia and walk into an internet cafe. Who's going to up grade that browser?
> There are a lot of schools running donated machinery and their main
> objective is to just keep them running, not add the latest bloatware from
> MSFT or install some 3rd party browser. The same goes for small libraries.
> You and I might wish IE6 a fast death, but the only people who can do
> anything about it are MSFT and users. If you aren't building a site for
> wide
> use, you can turn your back on it. But if you're working for a business
> that
> needs web traffic, you just can't afford to be picky.
>
> C'est la vie.
>
> -aaron
>
> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Iván N Paz <
> ml-user+576...@n2.nabble.com<ml-user%2B57637-...@n2.nabble.com>
>> wrote:
>
>> Yes... its being used BECAUSE, we still support it... because we do
>> not join the cause to stop its usage.... what Im doing here is making
>> a "call to arms", join the fight, and FORCE people to upgrade... when
>> we FORCE the final user to upgrade, they will force their admins to
>> let them do it... we can do it not only by encouraging them to switch
>> browser, but to al LEAST upgrade IE..... its worth the try...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 2:05 PM, MX3 Design
>> <mx3design@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=1342453&i=0>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > A nice thought Ivan but...
>> > September 2008 IE6 browser stats:
>> >
>> > w3c = 22.3%
>> > thecounter.com = 36%
>> >
>> > it's still being used a lot.
>> >
>> >
>> > 2008/10/16 Iván N Paz
>> <ivannpaz@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=1342453&i=1>>:
>>
>> >>
>> >> IE6 MUST DIE...
>> >>
>> >> Really guys... IE6 support has to DIE right now... personally I'm
>> >> considering not implementing a single hack to support it any
>> >> longer....
>> >>
>> >> We, the developers and designers, have to end that NOW.....
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> www.ivanicus.com
>>
>>
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>> To start a new topic under MooTools Users, email
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>> To unsubscribe from MooTools Users, click here< (link removed) >.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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nutron
tr0y
On Oct 16, 3:24 pm, nutron <anut...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.pushuptheweb.com/
>
> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Iván N Paz <
> > View message @
> >http://n2.nabble.com/What%27s-going-on-in-MooTools...-tp1094017p13428...
>
> The MooTools Tutorial: http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com
> CNET Clientside: http://clientside.cnet.comclientside.cnet.com
> --
Iván N Paz
> But we *WILL* tell flash users they need to upgrade - and then wonder why
> 95% of Flash users are all using the most recent version.
EXACTLY the SAME....
Since I dont want to be just plain rude, I will certainly give my
portion of help to this. Provide a cute banner, info, reasons, etc...
Dont know how much coverture I can take on this, but I will certainly
feel happier if I do it, and dont just stand here putting up with
it...
Im TIRED of pngHacking, Double Margins, Float Errors, BorderCollapse,
/*weirdhackcommentrules*/, its ENOUGH!!!
Iván N Paz
batman42ca
isn't even possible for some people to upgrade to IE7 without also
upgrading their hardware/operating system. Older operating systems
that still work just fine, don't support IE7 (WIN2K for example)
Sure there is always Firefox, but IE7 is not even an option for some
which might explain the continued use of IE6.
Iván N Paz
To those that love win2k and hate winXP, they have a whole myriad of
Linuxes that will work much better [that was a just a joke, hehehe,
nevermind it! ;-)]
horseweapon
thank's to IE's gray filter (how ironic) and say if you want to view
that website with colors, go get another browser, with a link to
firefox. I think the "best viewed" takes its whole meaning :)
Then about IE7 - IE6, I generally get IE7 to work the same as other
browsers, or very close. It just takes some position:relative here and
there. For IE6 however, I just try my best with the time I have, but
that's it, I don't want to waste my time anymore. I just make sure the
website stays accessible, but if I can't display a fancy overlay or
effect correctly, screw it: if(!Browser.Engine.trident4). It's
important to me that the user can still view the website, but if it's
not as enjoyable,
Then, about IE8, it's another problem. Looks like I'm going to use a
lot that downgrading meta tag. I just can't get a site to display
correctly in both IE7 and IE8. Or when it does, then it looks wrong in
the other browsers. If standard compliant means "the other browser are
wrong, I'm right", then I don't want a standard compliant browser, I
want a browser that work just like the others, even if it's not 100%
compliant. Damn microsft, even when they try to do things right, they
piss me off. I know, it's still a beta, but I highly doubt the whole
page rendering is going to change in the final release.
MX3Design
you're designing commercially or not. I can't turn around to my
clients and tell them that 25% of visitors potentially won't see their
site because I no longer support IE6. I do add targeted notes to sites
though encouraging upgrades. IE6 will just die a natural death in the
same way 5.5 did, patience is required...
800*600: with the growing number of mobile / semi-mobile devices and
mini notebooks, small dimension figures are increasing. No one can
realistically afford to ignore this market sector.
Iván N Paz
Not that you can just bail out of it, and certainly you would need
your client's aproval to place a banner or notice on their sites in
orther promote upgrade... there are tons of ways to convince your
client to join this movement as well, to teach them, to educate them.
(though you can not force anyone to learn, you can always tell them
the difference)
800x600 is dead, its been dead since long time ago.... right now,
designing for "normal" web, and for mobile its a whole different
deal... there are other limitations in here already besides screen
resolution, that make you follow two different paths anyways...
keif
@MX3Design You *are* correct that you can't *tell* your clients what to do.
However, the figure is always different.
Some clients don't see a significant number of IE6 users to really justify
support or spending time accounting for the myriad of issues (PNG filtering,
rendering, etc. etc.)
It's a matter of metrics - if the client has a year's worth of data,
checking what percentage of their users are really IE6 users. The excuse of
"potentially, 25% of THE WORLD uses IE6" doesn't mean you should have to
deal with it because one day the world may visit your site and get a
downgraded experience. If you're talking small percentages, you have to
factor - is it worth the effort, or is it better to just tell people they
need a new option?
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Iván N Paz
You have the whole world, and its 25% IE6 users.... but what you
really need is the % of people that will *actually* visit that type of
site... WHAT are the odds!!! ;-)
This is almost the same as keif's point on flash upgrade.. :-P
MX3Design
calculated the stats precisely but the percentage must be around 20%
on average of users visiting those sites still use IE6. That's simply
too big a margin to ignore. It's a nuisance and in an ideal world it
would be nice not to have to do it but with a good browser sniffer and
a couple of tried and tested scripts it's not that much of a deal to
keep those users happy.
People don't like change, they feel comfortable with the interface
they're used to. If you owned a 10 year old car would you be happy if
suddenly no parts were manufactured for it just because a new model
was released?
Guillermo Rauch
People don't like change, they feel comfortable with the interface
they're used to. If you owned a 10 year old car would you be happy if
suddenly no parts were manufactured for it just because a new model
was released?
Iván N Paz
> calculated the stats precisely but the percentage must be around 20%
Yes, but you are merging data from 1000+ different sites... lets say
there are certain sites, that will definitely NOT be visited by IE6
users... would you still support it even of the % of that browser
access is less than 2% to a given site?
Besides, no one is talking about redirecting people away from your
site but alerting them of a *better* way to surf the net... educate
them.. show a pretty (pretty not as in cute or beatiful, but very
simple) downgraded page... no more pnghack, no more dblmarginfloats,
weird hacking that makes life s*ck, that makes us waste our time.. etc
etc etc...
You said time will tell and IE6 will die.. have patience... do you
know since when we are dealing with such a beast? August 27, 2001!!!
> People don't like change, they feel comfortable with the interface
> they're used to. If you owned a 10 year old car would you be happy if
> suddenly no parts were manufactured for it just because a new model
> was released?
Bad example.... That REALLY happens in the real world!!! ;-)
Lets say.... Im pretty happy with my Pentium II.... I need to buy some
SDRAM for it... what would happen? [thats a very extreme example as
well, btw... ;-)]
And tha'ts why we fail sometime with the IE6 user... the first
reaction is always to promote the switch to Firefox, opera,
whatever.... cmon!! if we tell them to at least upgrade their
browsers... that's a big step ahead!
keif
Like's been said - are you looking at these sites as a whole, or as
individuals? By topic/keyword/demographic? I've got access to a number of
clients in different businesses, and they vary widely.
That's not a big margin if people aren't aware of something better - people
just assume "I know, so everyone knows" - I've got stats showing earlier
firefox browsers, opera browers, etc - It's highly possible that some people
just switched a browser because someone told them too, and they never
bothered to upgrade because NO ONE TOLD THEM.
As developers/designers - we make a LOT of assumptions. People are afraid of
change. People don't know how. People can't upgrade because of XYZ.
Really? I have yet to see any statistics/information that backs this up.
It's always been "I read somewhere" or some article from 2002 where someone
did an informal web survey on a web site that caters to developers.
I have my friends/family that aren't familiar with the web upgrade (I offer
to do it for them).
The problem is the movement is *HUGE* in the development/design community.
BUT non-tech people aren't reading this! They don't care! When they go to a
browser, they need to be told that their browser is updated, and how to
update it! Personally, I think telling people that IE6 is a cancer that
needs to be erased from the web is necessary. The time of holding everyone's
hand and "dealing it" is very obviously coming to a head.
I hate dealing with IE6. It's like the ex-girlfriend that won't let go. I'm
over you, bitch. Get over it.
> People don't like change, they feel comfortable with the interface
> they're used to. If you owned a 10 year old car would you be happy if
> suddenly no parts were manufactured for it just because a new model
> was released?
>
There is SO much wrong with that statement. We're talking about a browser.
The only thing that's changed ultimately matters to the developer - for the
most part the UI has stayed the same. We're not asking people to switch OS
or upgrade to the new Office (which *IS* a drastic change of UI) we're
asking them to make development easier, and help close loopholes and bugs.
That exist on a piece of software that isn't being developed anymore.
By that same logic, if IE5 for the Mac suddenly picked up because a bunch of
old macs came around, we should support them instead of saying "you need to
switch browsers" because of the numerous issues it would cause.
The excuse of "a lot of people still use it" is a moot one. A lot of people
use it because no one tells them to upgrade, no one tells them they have
options anymore.
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MX3Design
between 20 - 30% of internet users still use IE6. Yes. it varies
according to target market profiles but if you do some basic research
you'll find the average figure above to be correct.
If you're in business and trying to sell a product online for example
and you either start forcing your customers to change their behaviour
or don't provide them with a satisfactory experience how many goods
are you likely to sell?
There's a significant proportion of users who simply do not care about
'new technology' they're quite happy performing the same tasks in the
manner they're accustomed to. IE 5.5 only disappeared from main stream
use (and it is still being used) when the cycle of new hardware/OS
'completed'. In other words IE6 will only stop being used when pc's
are changed.
MX3Design
thread is all wrong. We're providing a service, we should be prepared
and happy to extend that service to as many users as possible.
keif
Following that same logic, you should support this list:
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0&qpmr=15&qpdt=1&qpct=3&qpcal=1&qptimeframe=Q&qpsp=38
Have fun with that, I'll stick to my targeted supported browser list that
depends on the clients needs and the determination that metrics provides. To
just blindly support everything "because someone could show up" is a fool's
errand.
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MX3Design
link
who's the fool?
keif
So you take *global* statistics and apply it to your site? I bet you waste a
lot of time testing browsers that don't show up.
Again I say, I use METRICS to determine what browsers to support. I don't
*NOT* support IE6 - I only support it if the evidence says I should. If you
support it and you have no visitors, who's the bigger fool?
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Guillermo Rauch
MX3Design
Example: A site gets featured on the news, suddenly your client's site
gets an unprecedented amount of traffic, what kind of traffic? Global,
mainstream traffic. You're going to look pretty silly and be unpopular
if you haven't anticipated the possibility in advance and developed
accordingly.
CroNiX
is extra work involved in supporting it. Extra work = extra $$$. 95%
don't go for it :)
On Oct 18, 1:24 am, keif <god.dre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So you take *global* statistics and apply it to your site? I bet you waste a
> lot of time testing browsers that don't show up.
>
> Again I say, I use METRICS to determine what browsers to support. I don't
> *NOT* support IE6 - I only support it if the evidence says I should. If you
> support it and you have no visitors, who's the bigger fool?
>
> MX3Design wrote:
>
> > "because someone could show up" = 25% of all users according to your
> > link
>
> > who's the fool?
>
> --
MX3Design
You may find this useful:
http://www.my-debugbar.com/wiki/IETester/HomePage
It's a really helpful app, renders all versions of IE and saves
checking on different pc's.
Iván N Paz
I just don't want to support IE6 any more, even if I can test IE4-IE10
con the same machine ;-)
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Ivanicus' Code Box
http://ivanicus.com/