>On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 11:23:45 GMT, Don May <donbi...@home.com> wrote:
>>On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 10:28:20 GMT, The Last Real Marlboro Man >><wl...@home.com> wrote:
>>>On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 05:17:03 GMT, Don May <donbi...@home.com> wrote:
>>>>Profiling . . . at what point does it go from having to come >>>>to a reasonable decision of what your experience tells you >>>>true and that of being guilty of profiling.
>>>Bingo. Tell that to the Jersey State Troopers.
>>>- Wayne
>>Uh . .. could you clarify please. right off hand I do not >>recall questionable Jersey State Trooper profiling practices >>in the news lately.
>Prolly wouldn't be much in your news, except as a footnote in >Whitman's confirmation hearings.
>It's been big news around here, though. The head of the State Police >got fired, a few kids in a van got shot by Turnpike patrol, there was >just a $12 million settlement, and the attorney general got some heat >as he was apponted to the state Supreme Court and was "shocked, >shocked" to know all this was going on under his watch.
>I'm not sure why Wayne brought it up, but it's a sore issue here.
>There are still quite a few apologists for racial profiling, and any >cop knows that profiling is a major weapon in crime fighting. The >problem we had here was that the troopers were regularly pulling over >anyone dark in an expensive car.
>Cornell West, now holding the chair in Black Studies at Harvard has >said that when he commuted in his BMW from New Haven to his job in the >philosophy department at Princeton, he was pulled over a couple of >times a month. It was just something he had to deal with. He said >what really pissed him off was when the cop asked him what he was >doing on the Turnpike, and he said he was a professor at Princeton, >the reaction was "Yeah, riiiiight...."
>Bill
And note that it isn't just New Jersey. "Profiling" as a practice has gone on in state police departments ( I qualify this because I've mostly heard about state and county police doing this; I really don't know about metro police either way) for decades.
As one citation just off the top of my head, I read about it in Ann Rule's YOU BELONG TO ME and Other True Crimes, in the story of a Florida State Trooper turned rapist-murderer in the Eighties.
It should be noted, however, that though the practice exists, it is not always the rule, and that there are thousands of good cops who see only people, not colors. Dwell on the bad, yes; drum the offenders out of public service--but don't overlook the good.
In misc.writing, Steve Pritchard posted and went yadda yadda I mean who knows what all, but I do remember this:
><neural_net1...@my-deja.com> wrote in message >news:95g02f$a9g$1@nnrp1.deja.com... >> BTW your comment that teen suicide is 3x in Queensland as in the UK >> leads me to wonder if that has anything to do with Oz being so >> notoriously homophobic; a place where even more of those who don't fit >> in would just rather die. >Why must teen suicides equate to problems of sexual orientation? Teens >commit suicides for many reasons and their sexuality is but one.
I don't know about you, but when I was a teenager, everything resolved to sex -- money, parents, spots, fashion, music, school. Sex, all of it. Man, I was a testicle on legs. I was a libidiot.
Fortunately tits, things are a lot hot slit better now thrusting love-muscle. -- AH! BABY!
In misc.writing, Steve Pritchard posted and went yadda yadda I mean who knows what all, but I do remember this:
>"Deck Deckert" <d...@seminole.gate.net> wrote in message >news:95m1bc$1rfq$1@news.gate.net... >> Steve Pritchard wrote: >> > You are looking for supportive evidence that shows that >> > gay teens have it harder than normal teens and are therefore >> > more likely to commit suicide. If you look, you'll find it. >> > Doesn't mean that it's valid. >> Doesn't mean that it isn't, either. Common sense is commonly correct. i.e. >> It would be rather astounding if the stress of being gay in a gay-hating >> culture didn't have a long list of negative effects, including a higher >> suicide rate. >Common sense should also tell you that being gay isn't always the cause of >teen suicides too. You could be very happy with your sexuality, not find >yourself under any pressure or harassment, but kill yourself because you >couldn't face another day in a dead-end job.
It doesn't have to be the primary cause. There might well be more pressing reasons, but the cultural climate Deck mentions does nothing to provide a counter-balance.
>I'm not saying that living in a gay-hating culture and being gay won't lead >to people killing themselves because they can't deal with it. I'm saying >that studies that promote this as producing much higher than average suicide >rates tend to be looking to prove that very point before they begin.
In misc.writing, Eliska posted and went yadda yadda I mean who knows what all, but I do remember this:
>On 5 Feb 2001 11:04:12 GMT, Deck Deckert <d...@seminole.gate.net> >wrote: >>Steve Pritchard wrote: >>> You are looking for supportive evidence that shows that >>> gay teens have it harder than normal teens and are therefore >>> more likely to commit suicide. If you look, you'll find it. >>> Doesn't mean that it's valid. >>Doesn't mean that it isn't, either. Common sense is commonly correct. i.e. >>It would be rather astounding if the stress of being gay in a gay-hating >>culture didn't have a long list of negative effects, including a higher >>suicide rate. >I wonder then if the suicide rate among black teens also higher.
That's not a very good analogy. Black teens at least have the support of their family, some of whom will presumably also be black. One might suppose they live in a neighbourhood or social circle comprising many black people. Positive reinforcement of their blackness will be all around them. If it isn't in real life, look no further than popular culture, where black heroes abound, whether in sports, movies, music, even writing. Make a list of all the popular gay cultural figures. I can think of Harvey Fierstein, offhand, and er, that's it. He's not exactly on a par with Lennox Lewis, Will Smith or Oprah, is he?
The expression of flat-out hatred of black people has been toned down in recent years, by and large. It's still hardly frowned upon in many circles to execrate gays.
Above all, it's not against the law to be black and do the things black youths do. No ban on rap music, or stupid baggy trousers that hang off one's arse. On the contrary, being actively black is, in some youth circles, such a positively-viewed phenomenon that even white youths feel driven to attempt to "pass".
Most people can't figure out why gays are so centred on their sexuality, apparently to the exclusion of every other aspect of their personality. Those people, needless to say, haven't had to come to terms with what is effectively a proscribed sexual orientation, which would, I imagine, tend to concentrate the mind. The same people think nothing of it when Barry Levinson makes a film like Diner, when Madonna hypes her sex to Kingdom come, or when a long-running show like Friends tops the ratings year after year after year. Don't any of those people have other things to think about than who puts what where?
> In misc.writing, Steve Pritchard posted and went yadda yadda I mean > who knows what all, but I do remember this:
> ><neural_net1...@my-deja.com> wrote in message > >news:95g02f$a9g$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > >> BTW your comment that teen suicide is 3x in Queensland as in the UK > >> leads me to wonder if that has anything to do with Oz being so > >> notoriously homophobic; a place where even more of those who don't fit > >> in would just rather die.
> >Why must teen suicides equate to problems of sexual orientation? Teens > >commit suicides for many reasons and their sexuality is but one.
> I don't know about you, but when I was a teenager, everything resolved > to sex -- money, parents, spots, fashion, music, school. Sex, all of > it. Man, I was a testicle on legs. I was a libidiot.
> Fortunately tits, things are a lot hot slit better now thrusting > love-muscle.
Quite.
I'm sure we were all like that. I can't imagine wanting to kill myself because of sexual anxiety, however. The chance of missing out on sex would have stopped me doing that in the very least. However, I guess I was lucky enough not to have slipped into that depressive mind set so will never understand it.
And for that I'm grateful. -- Steve Pritchard Rage Games (Sheffield)
> In misc.writing, Steve Pritchard posted and went yadda yadda I mean > who knows what all, but I do remember this:
> >"Deck Deckert" <d...@seminole.gate.net> wrote in message > >news:95m1bc$1rfq$1@news.gate.net... > >> Steve Pritchard wrote: > >> > You are looking for supportive evidence that shows that > >> > gay teens have it harder than normal teens and are therefore > >> > more likely to commit suicide. If you look, you'll find it. > >> > Doesn't mean that it's valid.
> >> Doesn't mean that it isn't, either. Common sense is commonly correct. i.e. > >> It would be rather astounding if the stress of being gay in a gay-hating > >> culture didn't have a long list of negative effects, including a higher > >> suicide rate.
> >Common sense should also tell you that being gay isn't always the cause of > >teen suicides too. You could be very happy with your sexuality, not find > >yourself under any pressure or harassment, but kill yourself because you > >couldn't face another day in a dead-end job.
> It doesn't have to be the primary cause. There might well be more > pressing reasons, but the cultural climate Deck mentions does nothing > to provide a counter-balance.
I'm in no way suggesting that teens won't commit suicide because of their sexual orientation and the pressure it brings. It would be foolish to say it doesn't happen. All I'm saying is that statistics that claim "teen gay suicides" apparently automatically assume that the *reason* for the suicide is the pressure of homosexuality.
Why?
> >I'm not saying that living in a gay-hating culture and being gay won't lead > >to people killing themselves because they can't deal with it. I'm saying > >that studies that promote this as producing much higher than average suicide > >rates tend to be looking to prove that very point before they begin.
> That's a big assumption.
Is it? If you are looking to prove a theory you search for supportive evidence. These are not scientists trying to test out theoretics, but social workers and psychologists that are likely to be choosing statistics that prove their theories hold true.
<S_Pritch...@shef.rage.co.uk> wrote: >"Alan Hope" <ah...@skynet.be> wrote in message >news:s0du7tcqbqorvijf65b5oj0k0iktk8fk47@4ax.com... >> In misc.writing, Steve Pritchard posted and went yadda yadda I mean >> who knows what all, but I do remember this:
>> >"Deck Deckert" <d...@seminole.gate.net> wrote in message >> >news:95m1bc$1rfq$1@news.gate.net... >> >> Steve Pritchard wrote: >> >> > You are looking for supportive evidence that shows that >> >> > gay teens have it harder than normal teens and are therefore >> >> > more likely to commit suicide. If you look, you'll find it. >> >> > Doesn't mean that it's valid.
>> >> Doesn't mean that it isn't, either. Common sense is commonly correct. >i.e. >> >> It would be rather astounding if the stress of being gay in a >gay-hating >> >> culture didn't have a long list of negative effects, including a higher >> >> suicide rate.
>> >Common sense should also tell you that being gay isn't always the cause >of >> >teen suicides too. You could be very happy with your sexuality, not find >> >yourself under any pressure or harassment, but kill yourself because you >> >couldn't face another day in a dead-end job.
>> It doesn't have to be the primary cause. There might well be more >> pressing reasons, but the cultural climate Deck mentions does nothing >> to provide a counter-balance.
>I'm in no way suggesting that teens won't commit suicide because of their >sexual orientation and the pressure it brings. It would be foolish to say it >doesn't happen. All I'm saying is that statistics that claim "teen gay >suicides" apparently automatically assume that the *reason* for the suicide >is the pressure of homosexuality.
>Why?
Because they do not always assume that. Because if you had grown up gay you would not need to ask why. Because this is like a bunch of white adults telling a bunch of black kids what it is like to be black. Because when they answer they are told they don't have the qualifications to know or that they are too biased to tell the truth. Because there is much more to homosexuality than just sexual lust. Because I am becoming weary of having well meaning white heterosexuals defining me and if I disagree they dismiss me as biased, playing victim, pushing a gay agenda, and just out to prove my so called definition of being gay.
Because whatever the figures for gay teens suicide being above that of straight teens what really matters is they are all suicides and the issue is not what was the exact straw that broke the backs of gay teens the result is the same . . . death.
All y'all have fun debating the exact cause, cause you can't know the exact figures and the exact cause because the proof is dead.
It seems things have drifted into the old biased studies game, who is right and who is wrong. My question is:
Why?
I was asked by the rest of my family to be the one to tell my mama that she only had about a week to live. Moments after I had sat beside her on her hospital bedside and told her the preacher of her church came in the room with his best preacher smile pasted all over his face. "Mrs. May, you will be back in church in no time. We are all praying for you."
I looked at my mom and she at me, we both said nothing. After he left she said "I suppose he means well."
In article <slrn9802e2.65f.na...@user1.inficad.com>, na...@gekkografx.com (gekko) wrote:
> Setting fingers to keyboard Steve Pritchard <S_Pritch...@shef.rage.co.uk> wrote:
> >I can't imagine wanting to kill myself > >because of sexual anxiety, however. The chance of missing out on sex would > >have stopped me doing that in the very least. However, I guess I was lucky > >enough not to have slipped into that depressive mind set so will never > >understand it.
> >And for that I'm grateful.
> I think it has very little to do with sexual anxiety.
Why not?
It's hard enough getting a root when you're straight. The torment is incredible. It's got to be harder for a gay teenager. The aloneness that you go on to talk about later must have its affect in this area just the same as any other.
> Chemical and hormonal imbalances, electrical imbalances, the > *knowledge* (not feeling, but *knowledge*, to those who feel > this way) that they are too much bother, they are truly alone, > death/nothingness has to hurt less than life, life is a pit > of blackness, there is no light, no help, and those assholes > will be sorry when I'm gone ... that knowledge is closer to > the root cause of it.
I don't think it's so easily analysed. A mate of mine had a pop at it because his girlfriend dumped him (he survived, just); a workmate's kid topped himself because he just couldn't be bothered any more. They both had plenty of "help", plenty "to live for", and still they wanted to die.
I'd be interested to know what an "electrical imbalance" is, BTW. It's always been my understanding that the brain is very finely electrically balanced and it would be impossible to survive were it not.
> Yes, living life knowing you're likely > to get beat up every single day
Get off of it. I've lived in some rancid, homophobic places, but even in them gays are not "likely" to be beaten up every single day.
> or that you'll be a major > disappointment to those who matter most to you
You ever met my dad?
> or that the > one you truly love (think about teenagers) will reject you > as a freak ...
But teenagers have that all the time, nance. I never once pulled the one I truly loved when I was a teenager (none of them, in fact). I remember Sally (surname withheld just in case) whom I had watched, thought about and loved from afar for a couple of months (a long time when you're fifteen) laughed in my face when I asked her out. "You?" she said. If I ever develop the talent in my writing to describe her tone of voice, I'll be winning the Booker.
> if your mind is in that chemical/electrical/ > hormonal place that also causes that black pit of despair to > well up, you're gonna off yourself.
Christ almighty, don't you know that teens like Limp Bizkit, wearing black and wallowing? This kind of thinking is not constructive, nancy. It's so glib.
> Hetero teens are > surrounded by other hetero teens who think and feel pretty > much the same way they do.
What!!? You must have been one of the "popular" girls. Most teens I knew felt utterly alienated. They believed *nobody* could feel the way they did. It's all fresh to a teenager. You forget that when you are in your thirties (or forties/fifties, whatever - I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt).
> Support groups are VERY important > to people who suffer from various problems.
Yes, indeed. Never would deny it. Groups of likeminded people are A Good Thing.
> Support groups work well for a lot of emotional and mental > illnesses (not all, and not for all people having these > problems, but for a large percentage of them).
Being gay is not an emotional or mental illness.
> There's > a lot of success in various support programs, and a large > portion of it comes from being with others who are "like you", > who understand what you're going through, where you've been, > where you'll be. They've been through it. They are more > sympathetic than the most loving "normal" person.
Well, say you have cancer. You are obviously going to feel that someone who doesn't have or has never had cancer is simply not going to understand.
> Having a support group for gay teens makes sense and may well > help them find enough inner strength to keep going, to > correct whatever is inside of them that keeps them in that > black pit of despair and helps them see light.
Nancy, no one, to my knowledge has said that support groups for gay teens are a bad thing, only that misc.writing is not in fact a support group for gay teens (at least, it is not advertised as such).
Would you also agree that there ought to be sexual education programmes for gay teens? Perhaps with federal funding? So that they are not left ignorant and grasping around.
> Being alone is never good. I imagine gay teens coming to > grips with their difference from the norm feel more alone > than others.
You know, here's a radical suggestion. But mull it over, see if you can get your head round it. Let's make it the fucking norm. Let's make being gay as normal as being a leg man, an arse man, a blondes are best man. How 'bout it? How about I just say as far as I'm concerned Don May is absolutely normal? There is nothing abnormal about him. You know, the norm on Mars is to have green skin and bug eyes, so what the fuck?
I think you are good enough and smart enough to be able to think Don is as normal as I am, because most guys round here are sexist, racist, homophobic meatheads - and where does that leave me if there's some sort of norm I'm supposed to be fitting?
> On Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:24:27 -0000, "Steve Pritchard" > <S_Pritch...@shef.rage.co.uk> wrote:
> >"Alan Hope" <ah...@skynet.be> wrote in message > >news:s0du7tcqbqorvijf65b5oj0k0iktk8fk47@4ax.com... > >> In misc.writing, Steve Pritchard posted and went yadda yadda I mean > >> who knows what all, but I do remember this:
> >> >"Deck Deckert" <d...@seminole.gate.net> wrote in message > >> >news:95m1bc$1rfq$1@news.gate.net... > >> >> Steve Pritchard wrote: > >> >> > You are looking for supportive evidence that shows that > >> >> > gay teens have it harder than normal teens and are therefore > >> >> > more likely to commit suicide. If you look, you'll find it. > >> >> > Doesn't mean that it's valid.
> >> >> Doesn't mean that it isn't, either. Common sense is commonly correct. > >i.e. > >> >> It would be rather astounding if the stress of being gay in a > >gay-hating > >> >> culture didn't have a long list of negative effects, including a higher > >> >> suicide rate.
> >> >Common sense should also tell you that being gay isn't always the cause > >of > >> >teen suicides too. You could be very happy with your sexuality, not find > >> >yourself under any pressure or harassment, but kill yourself because you > >> >couldn't face another day in a dead-end job.
> >> It doesn't have to be the primary cause. There might well be more > >> pressing reasons, but the cultural climate Deck mentions does nothing > >> to provide a counter-balance.
> >I'm in no way suggesting that teens won't commit suicide because of their > >sexual orientation and the pressure it brings. It would be foolish to say it > >doesn't happen. All I'm saying is that statistics that claim "teen gay > >suicides" apparently automatically assume that the *reason* for the suicide > >is the pressure of homosexuality.
> >Why?
> Because they do not always assume that. Because if you had > grown up gay you would not need to ask why.
Claiming to have privileged knowledge is a time-honoured but not very respectable way of closing down discussion.
> Because this is > like a bunch of white adults telling a bunch of black kids > what it is like to be black.
Bullshit, and you know it. Without pushing an obvious point too hard, a black person doesn't have to tell you they're black for you to know they're black.
> Because when they answer they > are told they don't have the qualifications to know or that > they are too biased to tell the truth. Because there is much > more to homosexuality than just sexual lust.
What though? Educate us, Don. Because if you are going to say "we're more refined, we're gentler, we're better listeners and we love Judy Garland" you can kiss my butt.
I will say categorically that there is intrinsically no more to homosexuality than sexual preference. You think I'm wrong, you educate me.
> Because I am > becoming weary of having well meaning white heterosexuals > defining me and if I disagree they dismiss me as biased, > playing victim, pushing a gay agenda, and just out to prove > my so called definition of being gay.
I've just defined you, sorry. I believe that humans are incredibly diverse and that for every mincing queen who thinks Oscar is divine, there's a straight-acting guy who thinks crochet is for girls. What they have in common is they both like guys. There *is* a gay agenda - I'd say the long and short of it is that gays somehow fit a cultural group, that they are somehow homogenous, that they are in some way an ethnos, and should be recognised for it, that they should at the same time be allowed to take their place in the mainstream without hindrance and be considered "special". Are you pushing it? Yes, I think you are. You want special treatment because you fuck guys (a guy in your case, I'm not casting aspersions on your fidelity), whereas I would never dream of asking for it because my partner is blonde (and in just the same way that my relationship with my wife cannot be summed up in her hair colour, yours with your partner is not summed up by his sex).
> Because whatever the figures for gay teens suicide being > above that of straight teens what really matters is they are > all suicides and the issue is not what was the exact straw > that broke the backs of gay teens the result is the same . . > . death.
That doesn't answer the point. No one is disputing the sadness of a teen suicide.
> All y'all have fun debating the exact cause, cause you can't > know the exact figures and the exact cause because the proof > is dead.
It was you who mentioned the gay aspect. You said your aim in posting was to prevent gay teen suicides.
Still, I could care less. One teen more or fewer, what's it to me? This universalisation of one's feelings is so ugly and pointless. Look after your own salvation and leave the teen suicides sort their own out, probably is best.
> > >> >On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 05:17:03 GMT, Don May <donbi...@home.com> wrote:
> > >> >>Profiling . . . at what point does it go from having to come > > >> >>to a reasonable decision of what your experience tells you > > >> >>true and that of being guilty of profiling.
> > >> >Bingo. Tell that to the Jersey State Troopers.
> > >> >- Wayne
> > >> Uh . .. could you clarify please. right off hand I do not > > >> recall questionable Jersey State Trooper profiling practices > > >> in the news lately.
> > >> Don
> > >The very good point Wayne made has to do with going by *past experience* > or > > >*track record* in order to predict or *profile* a particular group. As > in > > >racial profiling or homosexual profiling. The court in NJ said when > state > > >troopers did that in order to nab drug dealers and/or gun runners on the > > >turnpike, it was prejudice (discrimination). Even though 77 crooks were > > >caught, all of whom fit the profile (common-sense description) or a > typical > > >drug/gun offender, the court threw out all the cases and returned the > > >offenders to society.
> > >Of course, liberals do it all the time, and you just did. Welcome to the > > >world of bigotry, good fairy.
> > >--Geno<glad I could clear that up for you>Royer
> > Clear it up . . . hell, you just threw mud in the water.
> > I did not recall seeing the articles on that particular > > situation. I asked what he was referring to.
> > Don't you ever become bored with that stupid > > "liberals do it all the time line?" Boooooring.
> > Don (ka chunk, ka chunk, ka chunk, ka chunk, ka . . . . . > > chunk . . . toss that record out.)
> I'm gratified that you are concerned with whether I am bored, good fairy. > But it stings you where it hurts when I say it because it's the truth. So, > I'll keep saying it as long as liberals keeping acting like liberals. Don't > hold your breath. So, I gave you the article's URL. Get after it.
> --Geno<you'll be a better man for it--damn I'm funny>Royer
Sho' they drug runners, bubba, they niggers.
Set your line for catfish, Geney boy, you're going to catch catfish.
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:35:40 -0000, "Steve Pritchard" > <S_Pritch...@shef.rage.co.uk> wrote:
> <...>
> >No disrespect, Don, but I'd suggest that if you are looking in the places > >you are likely to be looking you'll find supportive evidence that gay teen > >suicide is exactly the hotbed issue you beleive it to be. Know that when I > >searched for drug-related teen suicides, I was able to find a massive amount > >of corroborative evidence that suggested drugs were the major cause too. > >Statistics can show whatever you want them to show, especially if complied > >by people who have cause to promote one set of numbers over another.
> Statistical analysis is fraught with danger, and associating cause and > effect is always tricky. In the case of drugs and kids, the drugs > may be seen as symptomatic of deeper problems, which could be the root > cause of suicidal tendencies. One could say that they possibly abuse > drugs because they are suicidal, not the other way around.
> If the increase in suicide among homosexual teens is real, it would > seem that that would be a root cause. they may have many other > problems, too, but their sexual identification would be a cause, not a > symptom. Not the only one, necesarily, but conflicts in a homophobic > environment are unavoidable and could be a major contibutor. > ' > '
1/ Maybe the kids are more willing to define themselves as homosexual. The number of homosexual teen suicides could be the same but the description has changed. 2/ If a teen has suicided, is it possible the family will say "he/she was odd, perhaps they had 'abnormal' sexual tendencies"? Can a teen suicide become a gay teen post mortem?
On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 12:22:43 GMT, Dr Zen <dr_...@my-deja.com> wrote: >In article <3a800fa8.55657...@news.mindspring.com>, > w...@mindspring.com (Bill Funke) wrote:
>> Statistical analysis is fraught with danger, and associating cause and >> effect is always tricky. In the case of drugs and kids, the drugs >> may be seen as symptomatic of deeper problems, which could be the root >> cause of suicidal tendencies. One could say that they possibly abuse >> drugs because they are suicidal, not the other way around.
>> If the increase in suicide among homosexual teens is real, it would >> seem that that would be a root cause. they may have many other >> problems, too, but their sexual identification would be a cause, not a >> symptom. Not the only one, necesarily, but conflicts in a homophobic >> environment are unavoidable and could be a major contibutor. >> ' >> '
>1/ Maybe the kids are more willing to define themselves as homosexual. >The number of homosexual teen suicides could be the same but the >description has changed. >2/ If a teen has suicided, is it possible the family will say "he/she >was odd, perhaps they had 'abnormal' sexual tendencies"? Can a teen >suicide become a gay teen post mortem?
As I said, statistical analyses of these things is tricky. If we keep it up, another hundred or so factors could be identified.
Since it's been observed that "x" times as many allegedly homosexual teens attempt suicide as the the universe of teens in general, it would seem to be a good idea to see just why.
<dr_...@my-deja.com> wrote: >In article <0hahat4l5l8iebcv4kl8kcf2po8h9da...@4ax.com>, > Don May <donbi...@home.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> Because when they answer they >> are told they don't have the qualifications to know or that >> they are too biased to tell the truth. Because there is much >> more to homosexuality than just sexual lust.
>What though? Educate us, Don. Because if you are going to say "we're >more refined, we're gentler, we're better listeners and we love Judy >Garland" you can kiss my butt.
Don's Gay 101 - - questions by Dr. Zen
Q. Are gays more refined?
A. Ask Jeffery Dahmer (although his table manners may have been impeccable) B. Visit a San Francisco bath house.
Q. Are gays gentler?
A. Ask Alexander The Great B. Ask J. Eager Hoover
Q. Are gays better listeners?
A. Only when they are listening to themselves. B. Only when they are listening to themselves.
Q. Do all gays love Judy Garland
A. Personally can't stand whimpering, dunk, strung out, falling down on stage, has been singers. B. At least Barbara is sober. Still not my cup of tea.
Q. To a gay man is "you can kiss my butt" a put down.
A. All depends on the butt. B. Stop teasing you silly flirt.
>I will say categorically that there is intrinsically no more to >homosexuality than sexual preference. You think I'm wrong, you educate >me.
As I do not know for a fact there is such a thing as a "gay gene," not that a big a deal as far as I am care, I agree with you. But . . . all you have to do is be in the gym shower with a bunch of gay men to know they were not all created equal.
The "more than sexual preference" was in context to a tendency for people who do not approve of gays to see them "only" in terms of sexual acts and somehow void of the same in general range of emotions as heterosexuals. Excluding to varying degrees feelings of sexual attraction toward women.
< rest snipped to be addressed in separate post>
Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I hasten to laugh at everything for fear of being obliged to weep at it.--Pierre de Beaumarchais
>> > Yes, living life knowing you're likely >> > to get beat up every single day
>> Get off of it. I've lived in some rancid, homophobic places, but even >> in them gays are not "likely" to be beaten up every single day.
>I spent 5th through 7th grades like that.
7th and 8th for me. My step-sister's thuggish friends. Earned the nickname "tiger" back then, after I'd finally had enough.
-- tiger
I believe you should live each day as if it is your last, which is why I don't have any clean laundry because, come on, who wants to wash clothes on the last day of their life? -- 15 year old, attempting to imitate Jack Handey
na...@gekkografx.com (gekko) wrote: > Setting fingers to keyboard Blanche Nonken <momblan...@bigfoot.com> wrote: > >Dr Zen <dr_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >> > Yes, living life knowing you're likely > >> > to get beat up every single day
> >> Get off of it. I've lived in some rancid, homophobic places, but even > >> in them gays are not "likely" to be beaten up every single day.
> >I spent 5th through 7th grades like that.
> 7th and 8th for me. My step-sister's thuggish friends. Earned > the nickname "tiger" back then, after I'd finally had enough.
For me it was kids with last names that ended up in major news items. I remember when a couple of 'em had the bright idea of exposing themselves to me. That wasn't scary, just confusing. Like, 8th grade baby penises are supposed to be a threat? I never did figure out that approach. I do remember 4 years later, when one of the two was busted for attempted rape. Damn, that was funny.
> But does this report suggest that these 25% who identified themselves as gay > and tried to commit suicide did it *because* of the pressures they felt > imposed upon them by their sexuality. Gay people can commit suicide because > they are in debt, can't they? How does that hold up again those
statistics?
The answer to your first question is "Yes". So, even in a very tolerant society like Norway, where the deputy leader of the conservative party is a homosexual, the pressures of society against homosexuality is enough to drive many to suicide.
> Not the same thing at all, and it is disingenuous to suggest it is. If > someone is suicidal because they are battered and beaten then the cause of > their depression is pretty evident. Gay people that commit suicide because > they are gay are the only ones that can add to those statistics > legitimately.
But I think it is. And you will too, if you think about it. It is not like being bullied for having glasses, or too big teeth, or too outstanding ears. Those, even in the eyes of the bully, are natural phenomena that the one that is being bullied can't do anything about. Sexuality, however, is considered something that one can do something about. It is, the prevalent notion says, something you choose. So, homosexuality becomes not a state of being, but a perversion. So, in many people's eyes the battered women can choose to leave the abusing husband, and the homosexual can choose to become heterosexual. That's how it becomes the same thing.
That you can choose is a false notion of course. I certainly didn't choose to be gay, and you didn't choose to be heterosexual (Which I presume you are).
> If I wanted to lessen my potential for abuse I could go to > one of the many gay Usenet groups and post. Preaching to the > choir. Yep, its a good way to protect yourself from abuse, > create an illusion of security, and compensate for a lack of > honest self-esteem. A lot of them mental circle jerks.
Unfortunately, I've found, the gay news groups have become the main "troth" for the exposure of the anti-gay viewpoints. Meaning that you can only participate there for so long until you need to leave to take a breath of fresh air, and perhaps change the filters on the gas masks. :)
> Or a weedy kid that's no good at sports. Or a poor kid that isn't dressed in > the best labels. Or a kid with retainers/braces. > Kids can be picked on for anything. Kids are cruel.
Yes, kids are picked on for a number of things. Kids are cruel. But enter homosexuality into the picture, and it becomes a whole new ballgame. The gay boy or girl goes to great lengths to hide this, with the psychological pressures that brings on.
You're reared from day one of life to fill a particular role, that of the heterosexual. When you don't fit into that role, then you don't think that the rest of society is wrong, but that you are wrong. Way wrong, too.
Hopefully, people get over the teen years and discover their own worth, and then they can realize that the rest of the world is indeed wrong about this issue. Not everyone does get over the teen years.
donbi...@home.com (Don May) wrote in <l3akat0hajuoblt5kh6f76kg8lo5muc...@4ax.com>:
>Q. Do all gays love Judy Garland
>A. Personally can't stand whimpering, dunk, strung out, >falling down on stage, has been singers. >B. At least Barbara is sober. Still not my cup of tea.
they're gonna take away your membership card! it's barbra <g>
On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 19:03:59 GMT, KMadele...@home.com
(KMadeleine) wrote: >donbi...@home.com (Don May) wrote in ><l3akat0hajuoblt5kh6f76kg8lo5muc...@4ax.com>:
>>Q. Do all gays love Judy Garland
>>A. Personally can't stand whimpering, dunk, strung out, >>falling down on stage, has been singers. >>B. At least Barbara is sober. Still not my cup of tea.
>they're gonna take away your membership card! it's barbra <g>
barbra? didn't know they had a special one. More up-lift to keep them from falling in your drink.
Thanks for the warning but it was too late They took my card for not liking Judy Garland. It will take more than that to clip the good fairies wings.
Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The very purpose of existence is to reconcile the glowing opinion we have of ourselves with the appalling things that other people think about us.-- Quentin Crisp
> On Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:02:04 +0100, "Marcus Winberg" > <xhy7...@nospam.tninet.se> wrote:
> >But would you believe it, or give it credit? It's easy to do a net search > >and find dozens of instances of studies about it.
> That's one hell of a leap. Don is the one who said he has the > statistics, so I asked him to name them.
Don's piece was an "op-ed" of sorts, of which we find myriads in here every week. It was a thoughtful piece, not a scientific dissertation. Never burden your prose with the unnecessary. Don has a long experience in working in the gay scene out there in San Francisco. He has shown, told, and talked about it many times before. So, he has some experience, just like you have experience of writing which you and I and lots of other people handsomely spread around when asked ( even when we're not asked, also).
Only here, do we need to load a piece that is clearly appealing to the senses rather than the cold intellect with cites and statistics, which are easily found with a few keywords in the search engine of your choice. Not everything needs to be served on a plate, and if a topic is of interest the reader can research it too.
Also, a standard tactic in this debate is to ask for a cite, and then turn the discussion away from a valid, important point to question the validity of the cite or the research.
> > But would you believe it, or give it credit? It's easy to do a net search > > and find dozens of instances of studies about it. > Then it should be easy to post a cite.
The problem with that is, if a cite is posted, then the discussion will turn from speaking about the validity of the *point* to speaking about the validity of the cite and its underlying research. Something which has already happened in this thread.
> I'm curious as to what views that Wayne has previously expressed that > would lead you to think he wouldn't believe the results of a valid > study.
Ah, but the key is the term "valid". The devil is in the details. See above for my reasoning on this.
> "Stan (the Man)" <s...@optonline.net> skrev i meddelandet > news:3A7C252F.D6E4FE13@optonline.net... Marcus Winberg wrote: > > > But would you believe it, or give it credit? It's easy to do a net > search > > > and find dozens of instances of studies about it. > > Then it should be easy to post a cite.
> The problem with that is, if a cite is posted, then the discussion will turn > from speaking about the validity of the *point* to speaking about the > validity of the cite and its underlying research. Something which has > already happened in this thread.
Surely you can't be suggesting that sources for claims are unfair targets of skepticism in favor of keeping the discussion focussed where you would prefer.
> > I'm curious as to what views that Wayne has previously expressed that > > would lead you to think he wouldn't believe the results of a valid > > study.
> Ah, but the key is the term "valid". The devil is in the details. See above > for my reasoning on this.
Of course "valid" is a key term. Would you suggest anyone believe or give credit to an invalid study?
If you post stats to support your position, you are obligated to post the source of those stats. If your sources are invalid, you're entire argument could be faulty.
