It is your family too
Don May
experience I can expect an automatic response from a few
folks here that I enjoy being a victim based on the
assumption that it is an attempt to gain attention and
personal sympathy.
Most of us have known folks whose life is one great tragedy
and they seem to love reminding you of that. I suspect this
wallowing in their misfortune brings them a reward, most
likely gaining attention which makes them feel loved in a
strange sort of way, attention and love they are missing
from other sources in their lives. I know people like that.
They call up to tell you about how horrible there last
operation was. The tenor of their voice is one of pride that
their operation was as bad as it could get. Makes me feel
like they think I have a gold star to award them and they
are calling to collect it.
There are other reasons to share past injustices than to
gain sympathy and attention. One is a reminder of past
mistakes with the hope we can learn from them and in some
small measure prevent future generations from the same
indignities.
I have a good life now. A fine mate for the past 22 years. A
home, great neighbors all living in a peaceful environment.
We do have rare minor disagreements, none which has anything
to do with our very diverse race, ethnicity and sexual
orientation mix. Bill and I are seen as "just another
couple." My day is not consumed with the past nor "being
gay" it's more about fixing the old faucet on the sink,
grocery shopping, and keeping a hundred year old wood house
from becoming part of my compost pile.
However, as I age I see some of the same injustices I faced
in the past still living on. I hear of, read of, and have
met parents whose children have died by their own hand,
children who were going through many of the same conflicts
I faced as a gay youth. I thought about taking my own life
on many occasions as a teen but somehow I found the strength
to go on, but far too many children do not.
You would think in this age of increased awareness and
tolerance that gay teen suicide would have gone down. It has
not. It is still about three times higher than heterosexual
teens.
Intolerance of diversity down at the high school level is
still a major problem. Most attempts to teach teens
tolerance for their gay peers is loudly opposed, labeled as
"promoting a gay lifestyle" based on the wrong assumption
anyone can be recruited to change their sexual orientation.
The message sent out to gay teens struggling with the
discovery of their feelings is that gay is wrong, they are
wrong, biological mistakes. Unable to cope with the constant
fear of rejection of friends, family, and religion they take
their own lives. And that is truly sad.
All teen suicide regardless of sexual orientation is tragic.
These are our children, they are the future. I happen to
think that in a sense all children are our children
regardless of who gave birth to them and whether we are,
married, single, of any particular race, ethnicity, or
sexual orientation parents have the responsibility and
society has the responsibility to nourish them and protect
them.
When you scoff, make fun, attempt to invalidate my
experience I can handle that, I'm a big boy now. But when
you stand in my way of trying the best I know how to prevent
future deaths by writing of my childhood experiences with
the hope of bringing about a small amount of understanding
and tolerance that may save a life you are just another pot
hole on the path to that goal. Think about that for about
five minutes . . . during that time another teenager will
have committed suicide.
Don
Dr Zen
Don May <donb...@home.com> wrote:
> Seems that most times I relate a past adverse life
> experience I can expect an automatic response from a few
> folks here that I enjoy being a victim based on the
> assumption that it is an attempt to gain attention and
> personal sympathy.
I think the impression is that you're a one-trick pony, Don.
> Most of us have known folks whose life is one great tragedy
> and they seem to love reminding you of that. I suspect this
> wallowing in their misfortune brings them a reward, most
> likely gaining attention which makes them feel loved in a
> strange sort of way, attention and love they are missing
> from other sources in their lives. I know people like that.
> They call up to tell you about how horrible there last
> operation was. The tenor of their voice is one of pride that
> their operation was as bad as it could get. Makes me feel
> like they think I have a gold star to award them and they
> are calling to collect it.
Or guys who got gay-bashed and think that makes them "special", you
mean? You cannot expect people to love you more for it, Don. It seems
to me, on reasonably short acquaintance with you, that the tenor of
your posts is "I am gay and I have suffered for it, and you should be
nice and love me for that". Well, hello! There's plenty of suffering in
the world, you haven't the monopoly on it.
> There are other reasons to share past injustices than to
> gain sympathy and attention.
But none of them really apply in your case.
> One is a reminder of past
> mistakes with the hope we can learn from them and in some
> small measure prevent future generations from the same
> indignities.
Give it a break. Tell it to the marines, not a Usenet newsgroup.
> I have a good life now. A fine mate for the past 22 years. A
> home, great neighbors all living in a peaceful environment.
Great. That's wonderful.
> We do have rare minor disagreements, none which has anything
> to do with our very diverse race, ethnicity and sexual
> orientation mix.
Sounds fantastic. My neighbours are all white, Aussies or Kiwis of
English extraction. Fucking boring actually. I miss my Somali neighbour
I had in Shepherd's Bush. Now, he really had had a shitty life. Most
positive guy you ever met though.
> Bill and I are seen as "just another
> couple." My day is not consumed with the past nor "being
> gay" it's more about fixing the old faucet on the sink,
> grocery shopping, and keeping a hundred year old wood house
> from becoming part of my compost pile.
But you feel the need to whinge about it here. Fine. Whatever. But
don't complain when people accuse you of being a bore, Don.
> However, as I age I see some of the same injustices I faced
> in the past still living on. I hear of, read of, and have
> met parents whose children have died by their own hand,
> children who were going through many of the same conflicts
> I faced as a gay youth. I thought about taking my own life
> on many occasions as a teen but somehow I found the strength
> to go on, but far too many children do not.
Yes, it's a tragedy. Can we move on now? This is not a fucking gay teen
support group.
> You would think in this age of increased awareness and
> tolerance that gay teen suicide would have gone down. It has
> not. It is still about three times higher than heterosexual
> teens.
Teen suicide is higher in Queensland than it is in the UK. About three
times higher, in fact. Nightmare, eh?
> Intolerance of diversity down at the high school level is
> still a major problem.
What do you think of Israel, Don? Shocking, eh? And did you know that
amphetamine use is up, what did that guy say, 70 pc in the last year in
Queensland? Idiot kids, eh? What do they think they're doing with
amphetamines? They should try smack. In my day, at least the teens
steered clear of whizz.
> Most attempts to teach teens
> tolerance for their gay peers is loudly opposed, labeled as
> "promoting a gay lifestyle" based on the wrong assumption
> anyone can be recruited to change their sexual orientation.
Do you think that whole discussion changed nancy's mind one iota? Or
Wayne's? This is a playground, Don, not a pulpit.
> The message sent out to gay teens struggling with the
> discovery of their feelings is that gay is wrong, they are
> wrong, biological mistakes. Unable to cope with the constant
> fear of rejection of friends, family, and religion they take
> their own lives. And that is truly sad.
Yes.
> All teen suicide regardless of sexual orientation is tragic.
All suicide is a hundred percent a tragedy for the suicide.
> These are our children, they are the future.
Oh gawd, Don, you'll have me reaching for the lacey. I can't believe
you said that. The idea that a teenager's death is any more tragic than
the death of someone, say, in their twenties is utterly ridiculous. A
death is a death. Don't give me this "they are the future" shit.
Someone you don't know is someone you don't know, period. Deaths are
tragic for the people involved and those that know them, no matter what
the age or circumstances.
> I happen to
> think that in a sense all children are our children
> regardless of who gave birth to them and whether we are,
> married, single, of any particular race, ethnicity, or
> sexual orientation parents have the responsibility and
> society has the responsibility to nourish them and protect
> them.
How lovely. You couldn't see your way clear to sending me a couple of
hundred dollars, could you? Ever since we had the sprog, money's been
really tight. You could call it child maintenance if you like.
> When you scoff, make fun, attempt to invalidate my
> experience I can handle that, I'm a big boy now.
I think those who scoff are horrid little pricks, Don. Don't get me
wrong, I think it's terrible that you've had hard times. The first time
I heard it, I thought, poor guy. The fifteenth time I had got to
thinking something different.
> But when
> you stand in my way of trying the best I know how to prevent
> future deaths by writing of my childhood experiences with
> the hope of bringing about a small amount of understanding
> and tolerance that may save a life you are just another pot
> hole on the path to that goal.
The best you could do that was posting to misc.writing?
> Think about that for about
> five minutes . . . during that time another teenager will
> have committed suicide.
Gawd, you're low. Most people here don't like an argument, they accuse
their correspondents of all kinds. I've been called a few things
myself. But you're saying that your detractors are responsible for the
deaths of teenagers? You're a bad man, Don, to lay that shit on people.
Here's what it is, though, Don. You like sex with men. Big fucking
deal. I like blondes (my wife's one). End of fucking story. That's all
there is. Let's move on.
Zen
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
The Last Real Marlboro Man
>Seems that most times I relate a past adverse life
>experience I can expect an automatic response from a few
>folks here that I enjoy being a victim based on the
>assumption that it is an attempt to gain attention and
>personal sympathy.
Personally I don't think it is an attempt to gain attention. I think
it's just the way you are. A victim, because it pleases you to be
one.
>You would think in this age of increased awareness and
>tolerance that gay teen suicide would have gone down. It has
>not. It is still about three times higher than heterosexual
>teens.
Cite, please.
- Wayne
-----------------------------------------------------
The Tocquevillian
http://www.waynelutz.net/conservativevoice
neural_...@my-deja.com
Dr Zen <dr_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> Or guys who got gay-bashed and think that makes them "special", you
> mean? You cannot expect people to love you more for it, Don. It seems
> to me, on reasonably short acquaintance with you, that the tenor of
> your posts is "I am gay and I have suffered for it, and you should be
> nice and love me for that". Well, hello! There's plenty of suffering
in
> the world, you haven't the monopoly on it.
I'll snip the rest; more of the same. My acquaintance with both of you
is about two posts long (one each) but it sounds, Dr. Zen, like you're
happily ignoring the tenor of the post you're responding to. Don I
thought put his biography into proper perspective and I get no
impression he's "whinging" about anything (how do you pronounce that,
by the way? I've always wondered). Just pointing out that there is a
legit reason or two to relate his story.
Seems to me, if you live such that you might provide a little hope to
those who need it, and thus reduce the suicide rate a wee bit, you're
doing something a lot more than playing victim.
BTW your comment that teen suicide is 3x in Queensland as in the UK
leads me to wonder if that has anything to do with Oz being so
notoriously homophobic; a place where even more of those who don't fit
in would just rather die. I was in the train station in Cairns once
and there was queer graffiti all over the men's room walls. Even I was
shocked (and I'm from the San Francisco region). Queensland must have
an untold story or two, what?
Don May
<dr_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <js88atkdd73lu0f2s...@4ax.com>,
> Don May <donb...@home.com> wrote:
>> Seems that most times I relate a past adverse life
>> experience I can expect an automatic response from a few
>> folks here that I enjoy being a victim based on the
>> assumption that it is an attempt to gain attention and
>> personal sympathy.
>
>I think the impression is that you're a one-trick pony, Don.
>
Well, I have lived with the same person for 22 years.
I think I was on a sabbatical from mw when you came on
board. I like to think some of the folks here who have known
me longer know I have a few other tricks up my sleeve.
However I admit I have been fairly narrow focused since you
showed up and can understand how you could see me that way.
Stick around I have a few other tricks in my bag of tricks.
>> Most of us have known folks whose life is one great tragedy
>> and they seem to love reminding you of that. I suspect this
>> wallowing in their misfortune brings them a reward, most
>> likely gaining attention which makes them feel loved in a
>> strange sort of way, attention and love they are missing
>> from other sources in their lives. I know people like that.
>> They call up to tell you about how horrible there last
>> operation was. The tenor of their voice is one of pride that
>> their operation was as bad as it could get. Makes me feel
>> like they think I have a gold star to award them and they
>> are calling to collect it.
>
>Or guys who got gay-bashed and think that makes them "special", you
>mean?
Nope. Reading between the lines again are you. It simply
means someone beat the shit out of them because they didn't
like who they were.
You cannot expect people to love you more for it, Don. It
seems
>to me, on reasonably short acquaintance with you, that the tenor of
>your posts is "I am gay and I have suffered for it, and you should be
>nice and love me for that".
Come on Zen, don't buy into that tired old line. It's kind
of a one trick pony too if you look at it. What part of "I'm
not looking for sympathy" do you not understand. Last thing
I want in this stage of my life is to be surrounded by " I
love you because I feel sorry for you." That's not love.
Well, hello! There's plenty of suffering in
>the world, you haven't the monopoly on it.
>
Where did you see that in-between the lines? Those darn
white spaces again.
You think I am so shallow I think I have a monopoly on it? I
see suffering in this world every day. I have a bloody
perspective on that. See you have defined me according to
your conditioned attitudes. Got news for you. I didn't state
I have a monopoly on it and I sure as hell don't think I do.
>> There are other reasons to share past injustices than to
>> gain sympathy and attention.
>
>But none of them really apply in your case.
>
Explain . . . don't throw out blank statements.
>> One is a reminder of past
>> mistakes with the hope we can learn from them and in some
>> small measure prevent future generations from the same
>> indignities.
>
>Give it a break. Tell it to the marines, not a Usenet newsgroup.
>
You underestimate the forum.
>> I have a good life now. A fine mate for the past 22 years. A
>> home, great neighbors all living in a peaceful environment.
>
>Great. That's wonderful.
>
Thanks I do too.
>> We do have rare minor disagreements, none which has anything
>> to do with our very diverse race, ethnicity and sexual
>> orientation mix.
>
>Sounds fantastic. My neighbours are all white, Aussies or Kiwis of
>English extraction. Fucking boring actually. I miss my Somali neighbour
>I had in Shepherd's Bush. Now, he really had had a shitty life. Most
>positive guy you ever met though.
>
Zen. . . you only see a part of me here addressing a narrow
range of subjects. People who live next door to me think I
am very positive and I am most of the time. Serious is just
one part of my personality.
>> Bill and I are seen as "just another
>> couple." My day is not consumed with the past nor "being
>> gay" it's more about fixing the old faucet on the sink,
>> grocery shopping, and keeping a hundred year old wood house
>> from becoming part of my compost pile.
>
>But you feel the need to whinge about it here. Fine. Whatever. But
>don't complain when people accuse you of being a bore, Don.
>
Did you call that last paragraph whinging? Oh, I see
complaining about a broken kitchen faucet and an old house
that needs constant repair. <g>
>> However, as I age I see some of the same injustices I faced
>> in the past still living on. I hear of, read of, and have
>> met parents whose children have died by their own hand,
>> children who were going through many of the same conflicts
>> I faced as a gay youth. I thought about taking my own life
>> on many occasions as a teen but somehow I found the strength
>> to go on, but far too many children do not.
>
>Yes, it's a tragedy. Can we move on now? This is not a fucking gay teen
>support group.
>
This is misc.writing it has a history of covering about
every subject under the sun and a few so far out that only
the poster seems to know where he is coming from.
>> You would think in this age of increased awareness and
>> tolerance that gay teen suicide would have gone down. It has
>> not. It is still about three times higher than heterosexual
>> teens.
>
>Teen suicide is higher in Queensland than it is in the UK. About three
>times higher, in fact. Nightmare, eh?
>
yep, it is. I've only visited you part of the country once.
>> Intolerance of diversity down at the high school level is
>> still a major problem.
>
>What do you think of Israel, Don? Shocking, eh? And did you know that
>amphetamine use is up, what did that guy say, 70 pc in the last year in
>Queensland? Idiot kids, eh? What do they think they're doing with
>amphetamines? They should try smack. In my day, at least the teens
>steered clear of whizz.
>
I've wondered what is happening over there that drug use is
so on the increase. If some of the movies coming out of
Australia are any indication of reality . . . big problem.
>> Most attempts to teach teens
>> tolerance for their gay peers is loudly opposed, labeled as
>> "promoting a gay lifestyle" based on the wrong assumption
>> anyone can be recruited to change their sexual orientation.
>
>Do you think that whole discussion changed nancy's mind one iota? Or
>Wayne's?
I don't believed in miracles. <g> What . . . Geno isn't on
the list.
>This is a playground, Don, not a pulpit.
>
Hey, fellow that is your definition of MW . first and
foremost it is a play pen. But damned near every one here
has taken their turn on the soap box down in the town
square.
>> The message sent out to gay teens struggling with the
>> discovery of their feelings is that gay is wrong, they are
>> wrong, biological mistakes. Unable to cope with the constant
>> fear of rejection of friends, family, and religion they take
>> their own lives. And that is truly sad.
>
>Yes.
Yes.
>
>> All teen suicide regardless of sexual orientation is tragic.
>
>All suicide is a hundred percent a tragedy for the suicide.
>
True.
>> These are our children, they are the future.
>
>Oh gawd, Don, you'll have me reaching for the lacey. I can't believe
>you said that. The idea that a teenager's death is any more tragic than
>the death of someone, say, in their twenties is utterly ridiculous. A
>death is a death. Don't give me this "they are the future" shit.
>Someone you don't know is someone you don't know, period. Deaths are
>tragic for the people involved and those that know them, no matter what
>the age or circumstances.
>
Slow down . . . Just because I said teen suicide is a
tragedy does not exclude any other deaths as not being
equally tragic. Think !!! Read my words. You are projecting
your thoughts. Look again . . . Where did I say or insinuate
that a suicide in any other age group was any the less
important to those who know them? I was focusing on teen
suicide. Not excluding all others as unimportant.
>> I happen to
>> think that in a sense all children are our children
>> regardless of who gave birth to them and whether we are,
>> married, single, of any particular race, ethnicity, or
>> sexual orientation parents have the responsibility and
>> society has the responsibility to nourish them and protect
>> them.
>
>How lovely. You couldn't see your way clear to sending me a couple of
>hundred dollars, could you? Ever since we had the sprog, money's been
>really tight. You could call it child maintenance if you like.
>
Tisk, Tisk . . . do not resort to sarcasm. Duh . . . what is
sprog? And you failed the qualifications . . . I think you
are more than just a wee past your teens.
>> When you scoff, make fun, attempt to invalidate my
>> experience I can handle that, I'm a big boy now.
>
>I think those who scoff are horrid little pricks, Don. Don't get me
>wrong, I think it's terrible that you've had hard times. The first time
>I heard it, I thought, poor guy. The fifteenth time I had got to
>thinking something different.
>
Although it has not been fifty times. You have answered a
concern I have had.
I was concerned I was reaching the point of turning some
people off.
>> But when
>> you stand in my way of trying the best I know how to prevent
>> future deaths by writing of my childhood experiences with
>> the hope of bringing about a small amount of understanding
>> and tolerance that may save a life you are just another pot
>> hole on the path to that goal.
>
>The best you could do that was posting to misc.writing?
>
Again, do not underestimate this forum. I use think too big.
Now if feel if you truly touch one person in a life time you
have done something worthwhile.
>> Think about that for about
>> five minutes . . . during that time another teenager will
>> have committed suicide.
>
>Gawd, you're low. Most people here don't like an argument, they accuse
>their correspondents of all kinds. I've been called a few things
>myself. But you're saying that your detractors are responsible for the
>deaths of teenagers? You're a bad man, Don, to lay that shit on people.
I will take responsibility for a poor way of putting it. It
is not "my" detractors as if anyone who stands in my way is
responsible for the deaths of teenagers.
How would you say it if you have seen the results of a lack
of education in tolerance bring about the conditions that
contribute to a teen taking their life? That is a sincere
question.
>
>Here's what it is, though, Don. You like sex with men. Big fucking
>deal. I like blondes (my wife's one). End of fucking story. That's all
>there is. Let's move on.
>
I suppose I could take that as a dismissal.
And . . . thanks for not falling into the trap some do of
thinking they have to be nice to poor little queer Don, or
it might be seen as "not PC." I respect people who can stand
up to me. I am a very strong headed, ask my mate but he is
equally strong headed . . . suppose that is why we have
lasted so long.
Don
Sara
professional victim ever *met* the man? I'm afraid you'd be terribly
disappointed at how off the mark that assessment of him is. As for
his posts in m.w., the cause for this whole "Don is a victim" thing
has just gone completely over my little head because I don't see it.
I guess I'm just a victim of own my own inability to know a victim
when I see one. I embrace that victimhood.
I guess in the same way certain people can't let any substantive post
from Geno go by without accusing him of bigotry, neither can other
certain people let any substantive post from Don go by without
accusing him of being a victim. It's all just part of the game, huh?
Boy, it sure is fun.
Sara (I think I'd rather go clean the bird poop off the deck)
Don May
<wl...@home.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 00:42:42 GMT, Don May <donb...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>Seems that most times I relate a past adverse life
>>experience I can expect an automatic response from a few
>>folks here that I enjoy being a victim based on the
>>assumption that it is an attempt to gain attention and
>>personal sympathy.
>
>Personally I don't think it is an attempt to gain attention. I think
>it's just the way you are. A victim, because it pleases you to be
>one.
I know of no way to bring you to any other conclusion than
the one you came to some time back. However, I suspect if
you met me and I you personally our attitudes toward each
other would change.
>
>>You would think in this age of increased awareness and
>>tolerance that gay teen suicide would have gone down. It has
>>not. It is still about three times higher than heterosexual
>>teens.
>
>Cite, please.
First I want to make it clear I do not in any way think a
gay teen suicide is any more or less tragic than that in the
general teenage population. From best I can determine teen
suicide is on the rise in all categories. In some areas of
the states and the world on an alarming rise.
The most often quoted source for gay male and lesbian youth,
I wish there were more recent government reports on the
national level, is:
U. S. Department of Health and Human Services, "Gay Male and
Lesbian Youth Suicide," by Paul Gibson, in Report of the
Secretary's Task Force on Youth Suicide, ed. Marcia R.
Feinleib, Washington, DC, January 1989
Individual states also have done more recent studies and a
search on the web will come up with those studies. I try and
look at the overall teen figures as well as those focused on
gay teen because from my stand point they are all equally
tragic to the families involved.
It is very difficult to come up with exact figures on gay
teen suicide for obvious reasons. It is a bit difficult to
determine if it was teen suicide for gay reasons unless it
was know they were gay, or there was evidence that was found
in their belongings, known harassment at school. or an
admission in a suicide note. Many do not leave notes as they
have killed themselves because they can not find the
strength or support to come out so obviously often do not
leave any explanation in a note.
The exact percentage is not really the issue. I used what is
generally used in most reports I have read. I suspect I
would be better off not giving any percentages, to avoid
accusations of distorting the facts in order to raise alarm.
One percent would still be too many. I will do some more
research.
The Last Real Marlboro Man
>Have any of you folks who are convinced that the Good Fairy is a
>professional victim ever *met* the man? I'm afraid you'd be terribly
>disappointed at how off the mark that assessment of him is.
Funny, the above is the same thing I always say about Royer - not that
he needs my defense or anyone else's.
Don invoked the question, Sara. Don't go off on me for answering it
as I see it. If one posts here, one is subject to response. No one
is off limits - not Don, not me, not you. In fact, in responding to
me and mentioning Gene, you are mentioning two people who have been
the recipients of more unfounded abuse in this forum than most. We
don't whine about it.
Don has always been treated with kid gloves around here, for whatever
reason. I, however, have valid questions for him when he posts like
this - I don't accept what he says at face value. So far he's been a
big boy and held his own in answering them.
Alma Hromic
>Have any of you folks who are convinced that the Good Fairy is a
>professional victim ever *met* the man? I'm afraid you'd be terribly
>disappointed at how off the mark that assessment of him is. As for
>his posts in m.w., the cause for this whole "Don is a victim" thing
>has just gone completely over my little head because I don't see it.
>I guess I'm just a victim of own my own inability to know a victim
>when I see one. I embrace that victimhood.
i've never met him, but i've never seen him as a victim.
>
>Sara (I think I'd rather go clean the bird poop off the deck)
hey, what has that deck been up to? i thought he was sick in bed with
a cold and he's been chasing BIRDS???
A.
***************************
"If you want a happy ending that depends, of course, on where you stop your story."
Orson Welles
Deck Deckert
> Don has always been treated with kid gloves around here
Hardly. You and Gene call him a 'victim', for example, and put him down
because of who he is, who God made him.
You and Gene are slammed for your posts, for your expressed opinions, not
for who you are. Nobody derides you because you are white heterosexual
males.
Deck
Marcus Winberg
"The Last Real Marlboro Man" <wl...@home.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:jntm7t4di56tq5jua...@4ax.com...
[ snip ]
> >You would think in this age of increased awareness and
> >tolerance that gay teen suicide would have gone down. It has
> >not. It is still about three times higher than heterosexual
> >teens.
>
> Cite, please.
But would you believe it, or give it credit? Knowing your previously
expressed views on this subject, I don't think you would. I can point you to
the NOVA report in Norway, a Norwegian government report, that said that 25
percent of the people who identified themselves as gay had tried to committ
or thought about committing suicide.
Cheers,
Marcus
gekko
>Wayne Lutz wrote:
>> Don has always been treated with kid gloves around here
>
>Hardly. You and Gene call him a 'victim', for example, and put
>him down because of who he is, who God made him.
>
I disagree that Don is being treated with kid gloves, but I also
(surprise!) disagree with the above.
Don is being called a "victim" because his posts are full of
victimhood stories. I'm with Sara, in believing that a person
may writer, here, about his or her suffering and not *be*
someone who is caught up in victimhood. It takes a lot more
than a handful of posts to a newsgroup to define a person.
However, if, as people say concerning geno or wayne, all
one has to go on of a person is their posts here, then it's
easy to assign the characterization of "victimhood" to
Don. He writes beautifully, heart-fully and evocatively about
the things that happened in his life or how he feels. But
they are nearly ALL about what it was like to grow up knowing
you loved men, or being in the service and having to hide
that, or other (valid, certainly) signs of being a victim.
I love to read Don's posts. I don't consider myself as
treating him with kid gloves, because if he says something
with which I disagree I will certainly let him know it. But
I love reading his perspective and the things he underwent
as he grew up. It's *one* of the reasons I'm here.
But I can see where someone is deriving "victimhood" from
his posts, and not at all from who he is.
Deck, you're making the assumption that Wayne assigns that
label to all homosexual people, and not just Don. That's
fairly narrowsighted. You don't have any way of knowing
how Wayne treats homosexuals, nor even what his views on
homosexuality are. He's addressing Don's posts only, same
as what you and others claim to do with Geno.
--
gekko, formerly known as nancy
No, I'm not really here. This is just a drive-by post, as I'm
incredibly busy busy busy these days and just absolutely LIVE at my
desk doing all kinds of important work and I can't be bothered with
newsgroups; you know how it is, but hugs and happy waves to all you
who know who you are!
Marcus Winberg
news:jntm7t4di56tq5jua...@4ax.com...
[ snip ]
> >You would think in this age of increased awareness and
> >tolerance that gay teen suicide would have gone down. It has
> >not. It is still about three times higher than heterosexual
> >teens.
>
> Cite, please.
But would you believe it, or give it credit? It's easy to do a net search
and find dozens of instances of studies about it.
But, knowing your previously expressed views on this subject, I fear you
wouldn't believe them anyway. I can point you to the NOVA report in Norway,
a Norwegian government report, that said that 25 percent of the people who
identified themselves as gay had tried to committ or thought about
committing suicide.
Would you ask battered women to cite reports showing the prevalence of
violence against them before admitting that something ought to be done about
men beating their spouses, rather than look at the bruises and disregard the
story that they fell down the stairs at home and just happened to loose
their teeth whilst falling on their bottoms?
Cheers,
Marcus
Stan (the Man)
Marcus Winberg wrote:
>
> "The Last Real Marlboro Man" <wl...@home.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:jntm7t4di56tq5jua...@4ax.com...
>
> [ snip ]
>
> > >You would think in this age of increased awareness and
> > >tolerance that gay teen suicide would have gone down. It has
> > >not. It is still about three times higher than heterosexual
> > >teens.
> >
> > Cite, please.
>
> But would you believe it, or give it credit? It's easy to do a net search
> and find dozens of instances of studies about it.
Then it should be easy to post a cite.
> But, knowing your previously expressed views on this subject, I fear you
> wouldn't believe them anyway.
I'm curious as to what views that Wayne has previously expressed that
would lead you to think he wouldn't believe the results of a valid
study.
I can point you to the NOVA report in Norway,
> a Norwegian government report, that said that 25 percent of the people who
> identified themselves as gay had tried to committ or thought about
> committing suicide.
How does that address the issue for which Wayne was asking Don to cite.
He was asking for a cite for Don's claim that the suicide rate among gay
teens is 3 times higher than that of heterosexual teens. Your comment
above does not relate to that in any way.
> Would you ask battered women to cite reports showing the prevalence of
> violence against them before admitting that something ought to be done about
> men beating their spouses, rather than look at the bruises and disregard the
> story that they fell down the stairs at home and just happened to loose
> their teeth whilst falling on their bottoms?
This is a non-sequitur. I don't believe Wayne addressed the issue of
doing something about suicide, gay or otherwise. He simply asked for a
cite on the claim that 3 times more gay teens commit suicide than
heterosexual teens. You've chosen to take a great deal more from that
simple question.
I'd be interested in the cite, as well. And, fwiw, I think something
should be done to address all teen suicide, whether gay or not.
Stan
Geno
"Sara" <sara...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:3q4n7t028f8tko2e5...@4ax.com...
Sara nailed it. Don is a bigot and I am a victim.
--Geno<glad somebody finally figured it out>Royer
Frank Raymond Michaels
(Alma Hromic) wrote:
>On Fri, 02 Feb 2001 22:23:03 -0700, Sara <sara...@uswest.net> wrote:
>
>>Have any of you folks who are convinced that the Good Fairy is a
>>professional victim ever *met* the man? I'm afraid you'd be terribly
>>disappointed at how off the mark that assessment of him is. As for
>>his posts in m.w., the cause for this whole "Don is a victim" thing
>>has just gone completely over my little head because I don't see it.
>>I guess I'm just a victim of own my own inability to know a victim
>>when I see one. I embrace that victimhood.
>
>i've never met him, but i've never seen him as a victim.
That's the difference between you and I, Alma...
I see everyone as a *potential* victim...
Mwahahahahaahahahahaaha!
======================
Frank Raymond Michaels ("Maybe I should write NICE stories
once in a while....?")
The Horror Fiction Page: http://i2.i-2000.com/~frankmi
Geno
"Deck Deckert" <de...@dakota.gate.net> wrote in message
news:95h4ai$1h4i$2...@news.gate.net...
Being a white, heterosexual male is perfectly normal. Don always decries
his bad treatment in life--treatment which he implies is abnormal. Of
course! The abnormal are always treated abnormally in general society. It
is only in small pockets of society that adoration of selected abnormalities
exists, not in the general society. Mw is one of those pockets. You people
are sick.
--Geno<normal in every way>Royer
Don May
Raymond Michaels) wrote:
>On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 14:11:05 GMT, ang...@earthlink.net
>(Alma Hromic) wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 02 Feb 2001 22:23:03 -0700, Sara <sara...@uswest.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Have any of you folks who are convinced that the Good Fairy is a
>>>professional victim ever *met* the man? I'm afraid you'd be terribly
>>>disappointed at how off the mark that assessment of him is. As for
>>>his posts in m.w., the cause for this whole "Don is a victim" thing
>>>has just gone completely over my little head because I don't see it.
>>>I guess I'm just a victim of own my own inability to know a victim
>>>when I see one. I embrace that victimhood.
>>
>>i've never met him, but i've never seen him as a victim.
>
>That's the difference between you and I, Alma...
>I see everyone as a *potential* victim...
>Mwahahahahaahahahahaaha!
Look fella . . . don't forget I am the one holding the rapid
fire, fully automatic wand
The Good Fairy (nice twist . . . the horror writer becomes
the victim) Mwahahahahaahahahahaaha!
>======================
>Frank Raymond Michaels ("Maybe I should write NICE stories
>once in a while....?")
>
>The Horror Fiction Page: http://i2.i-2000.com/~frankmi
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one's definition of your life, but define yourself."
- Harvey Fierstein
Alma Hromic
Michaels) wrote:
frank, *i* am the one that a certain young fella who frequents this
very newsgroup once asked in an aggrieved tone of voice whether i had
ever heard of happy endings...
Don May
Are you saying your posts are a figment of our imagination?
Don't give me that normal in every way . . . I saw the
photos. PU-leese get a new hair color before you go talking
about abnormal folks. If it is your real hair and your real
color I apologize and my condolences mother nature was so
cruel.
I gave a fellow here some advice on writing, told him to
write about what he knew best . . . won't find me making up
lines about what it feels like to have fingers running
through my hair.
Don (need to shave the sides of my head this morning)
acdouglas
> [snipped - original post is below]
------------------------------------------------------
From what I've observed, Wayne and Geno both have it wrong. It's not so much
that Don is playing victim as it is that he's establishing himself as a
professional homo: someone who -- ad infinitum and ad nauseam -- defines who
he is and what he does, and what the rest of the world is and does,
exclusively in terms of his own homosexuality.
Gets to be real annoying after a bit.
--
ACD
http://www.monmouth.com/~acdouglas
v---------------------- [original post] ----------------------v
"gekko" <na...@gekkografx.com> wrote in message
news:Xns903D50CED...@24.1.240.74...
Don May
<sire...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>"Sara" <sara...@uswest.net> wrote in message
>news:3q4n7t028f8tko2e5...@4ax.com...
<...>
>>
>> I guess in the same way certain people can't let any substantive post
>> from Geno go by without accusing him of bigotry, neither can other
>> certain people let any substantive post from Don go by without
>> accusing him of being a victim. It's all just part of the game, huh?
>> Boy, it sure is fun.
>>
>> Sara (I think I'd rather go clean the bird poop off the deck)
>
>
>Sara nailed it. Don is a bigot and I am a victim.
>
>--Geno<glad somebody finally figured it out>Royer
>
Poor guy. Those leftist bleeding heart liberals kicking sand
in your face again? Hate crime!
Lost six pounds, can see my willy without sucking in my
stomach. A few more weeks at the gym and I can really kick
some bad ass sand your way.
Don (at the YMCA singing in the showers "Macho Macho Man,
I'm Going to be a Macho Man.")
Sara
<wl...@home.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 02 Feb 2001 22:23:03 -0700, Sara <sara...@uswest.net> wrote:
>
>>Have any of you folks who are convinced that the Good Fairy is a
>>professional victim ever *met* the man? I'm afraid you'd be terribly
>>disappointed at how off the mark that assessment of him is.
>
>Funny, the above is the same thing I always say about Royer - not that
>he needs my defense or anyone else's.
>
>Don invoked the question, Sara. Don't go off on me for answering it
>as I see it.
Wow - touchy! That was hardly "going off" - and I sure as hell wasn't
singling you out, Wayne. If you'll notice, there are numerous other
parties involved in the thread.
>If one posts here, one is subject to response.
Exactly.
> No one
>is off limits - not Don, not me, not you. In fact, in responding to
>me and mentioning Gene, you are mentioning two people who have been
>the recipients of more unfounded abuse in this forum than most.
Thank you, that was part of my point. People don't listen to each
other. We read each other's words and make them fit into the
categories we already have for them. That's my perception of what
goes on, anyway. Gene is the perfect example - some are inflamed by
his posts before they even read them. Silly. That is why I mentioned
him, you see?
>We
>don't whine about it.
I guess whining is all in the eye of the beholder.
>Don has always been treated with kid gloves around here, for whatever
>reason.
He has? I hadn't noticed.
>I, however, have valid questions for him when he posts like
>this - I don't accept what he says at face value. So far he's been a
>big boy and held his own in answering them.
Of course he has. That's Don.
As you said, when one posts, one is subject to response. My response
was and is, "Victim? I don't see it."
Sara
Don May
<acdo...@monmouth.com> wrote:
>
>From what I've observed, Wayne and Geno both have it wrong. It's not so much
>that Don is playing victim as it is that he's establishing himself as a
>professional homo: someone who -- ad infinitum and ad nauseam -- defines who
>he is and what he does, and what the rest of the world is and does,
>exclusively in terms of his own homosexuality.
>
While I can understand the frequency of my posts with gay
subject matter in them would lead you to that conclusion I
regret to inform you I am not there yet. I would have to
redecorate my house, leave the YMCA and go to a pumped up
pretty boy gay gym. Stop hanging out here with all you
heteros and only post in exclusively gay news groups.
If you knew as many professional gays as I do you would know
just how bad I flunked my application to become one.
I suppose after spending a life time schooled to be a good
professional hetero the conditioning was simply too much to
overcome.
Tah, off to buy some more Bud and a big screen TV.
>Gets to be real annoying after a bit.
>
Lord, can you say that again.
Don
Frank Raymond Michaels
<donb...@home.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 16:18:22 GMT, fra...@i-2000.com (Frank
>Raymond Michaels) wrote:
>
>><snip>
>>That's the difference between you and I, Alma...
>>I see everyone as a *potential* victim...
>>Mwahahahahaahahahahaaha!
>
>Look fella . . . don't forget I am the one holding the rapid
>fire, fully automatic wand
Yeah, but the safety is on.
(made you look...)
>
>The Good Fairy (nice twist . . . the horror writer becomes
>the victim) Mwahahahahaahahahahaaha!
Arrgh! By Azathoth's Drool-Pail! Curse you, Good Fairy!!!!!
======================
Frank Raymond Michaels ("Hey, aren't you supposed to give me
a wish...?")
Towse
"Stan (the Man)" wrote:
>
> Marcus Winberg wrote:
> >
> > "The Last Real Marlboro Man" <wl...@home.com> skrev i meddelandet
> > news:jntm7t4di56tq5jua...@4ax.com...
> >
> > [ snip ]
> >
> > > >You would think in this age of increased awareness and
> > > >tolerance that gay teen suicide would have gone down. It has
> > > >not. It is still about three times higher than heterosexual
> > > >teens.
> > >
> > > Cite, please.
> >
> > But would you believe it, or give it credit? It's easy to do a net search
> > and find dozens of instances of studies about it.
>
> Then it should be easy to post a cite.
<http://www.pflag.org/schools/educators.htm>
Whoops. PFLAG, a notoriously skewed source, eh?
<http://www.educationworld.com/a_admin/admin087.shtml>
<http://www.youth.org/loco/PERSONProject/Alerts/Old/1997/risk.html>
<http://spunky.resnet.mtu.edu/articles/001.html>
<http://spunky.resnet.mtu.edu/articles/004.html>
<http://www.virtualcity.com/youthsuicide/gbsuicide.htm>
<http://www.anythingthatmoves.com/ish17/queer-teen-suicide.html>
<http://www.doe.mass.edu/lss/yrbs99/chapter8.html>
Others.
Note, though, especially this bit from the mass.edu cite:
"Sexual minority youth (i.e, adolescents who either identified
themselves as gay, lesbian, or bisexual and/or those who had any
same-sex sexual experience) reported higher rates than their peers of
considering suicide (49% vs. 20%), making a suicide plan (39% vs. 15%),
actually attempting suicide (29% vs. 7%), and of requiring medical
attention for a suicide attempt (18% vs. 3%). Differences were
statistically significant both for self-identified sexual orientation
and for same-sex behavior."
and for the arguments from the opposite side of the aisle, including
links to more sources
<http://www.traditionalvalues.org/tvcsr1100.html>
Seems to me Don's reaction to Wayne's commentary at
<http://www.waynelutz.net/conservativevoice/articles/0005.html> was due
in part to the similarity between Wayne's commentary and the arguments
in articles such as the above cited.
Sal
The Last Real Marlboro Man
>Hardly. You and Gene call him a 'victim', for example, and put him down
>because of who he is, who God made him.
Oh? I *defy* you to find *one* post where *I* put him down "because of
who he is". No, I *demand* that you either do so or retract your
statement publicly.
I am dead serious, Deck. I demand it.
.
>You and Gene are slammed for your posts, for your expressed opinions, not
>for who you are. Nobody derides you because you are white heterosexual
>males.
Would you care to explain to me how you differentiate my "posts" or
Don's or yours from "who we are"? You have just evidenced the height
of prejudice yourself, Deck, by assuming that you have me so well
pegged.
What you really mean is that our "expressed opinons" are offensive to
you while other "expressed opinions" get a pass because you agree with
one and not the other.
Victimhood has nothing on hypocrisy.
The Last Real Marlboro Man
<xhy...@nospam.tninet.se> wrote:
>But would you believe it, or give it credit? It's easy to do a net search
>and find dozens of instances of studies about it.
That's one hell of a leap. Don is the one who said he has the
statistics, so I asked him to name them.
Gene Royer
"Don May" <donb...@home.com> wrote in message
news:g34aat42kkkre7mvb...@4ax.com...
LOL! It's my hair, and I wish it were a better color. But it's *normal* for
a man my age to have mousy gray--just like it's normal for a man your age to
be bald as a baby's butt. I thought about shaving my head like the Net Ghod
did a few years ago. But then I figured, heck if I've got it why not flaunt
it. I've got hair in places some men don't even have places.
--Geno<nice try at changing the subject>Royer
Gene Royer
> On Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:14:40 -0600, "Geno"
> <sire...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Sara" <sara...@uswest.net> wrote in message
> >news:3q4n7t028f8tko2e5...@4ax.com...
>
> <...>
> >>
> >> I guess in the same way certain people can't let any substantive post
> >> from Geno go by without accusing him of bigotry, neither can other
> >> certain people let any substantive post from Don go by without
> >> accusing him of being a victim. It's all just part of the game, huh?
> >> Boy, it sure is fun.
> >>
> >> Sara (I think I'd rather go clean the bird poop off the deck)
> >
> >
> >Sara nailed it. Don is a bigot and I am a victim.
> >
> >--Geno<glad somebody finally figured it out>Royer
> >
>
> Poor guy. Those leftist bleeding heart liberals kicking sand
> in your face again? Hate crime!
>
> Lost six pounds, can see my willy without sucking in my
> stomach. A few more weeks at the gym and I can really kick
> some bad ass sand your way.
>
> Don (at the YMCA singing in the showers "Macho Macho Man,
> I'm Going to be a Macho Man.")
Bigot! How dare you refer to my pals as leftist bleeding heart liberals.
And now you threaten me with violence. I'm putting out a call to the
*Victim Police*.
--Geno<what's good for goose is good for the wedgie>Royer
Gene Royer
> On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 01:49:52 GMT, Dr Zen
> <dr_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >
> Well, I have lived with the same person for 22 years.
> I think I was on a sabbatical from mw when you came on
> board. I like to think some of the folks here who have known
> me longer know I have a few other tricks up my sleeve.
> However I admit I have been fairly narrow focused since you
> showed up and can understand how you could see me that way.
> Stick around I have a few other tricks in my bag of tricks.
>
>>
> I don't believed in miracles. <g> What . . . Geno isn't on
> the list.
>
> >This is a playground, Don, not a pulpit.
> >
> Hey, fellow that is your definition of MW . first and
> foremost it is a play pen. But damned near every one here
> has taken their turn on the soap box down in the town
> square.
>
> >> The message sent out to gay teens struggling with the
> >> discovery of their feelings is that gay is wrong, they are
> >> wrong, biological mistakes. Unable to cope with the constant
> >> fear of rejection of friends, family, and religion they take
> >> their own lives. And that is truly sad.
> >
> >Yes.
> Yes.
> >
> >> All teen suicide regardless of sexual orientation is tragic.
> >
> >All suicide is a hundred percent a tragedy for the suicide.
> >
> True.
>
> >> These are our children, they are the future.
> >
> >
> Slow down . . . Just because I said teen suicide is a
> tragedy does not exclude any other deaths as not being
> equally tragic. Think !!! Read my words. You are projecting
> your thoughts. Look again . . . Where did I say or insinuate
> that a suicide in any other age group was any the less
> important to those who know them? I was focusing on teen
> suicide. Not excluding all others as unimportant.
>> >
> Tisk, Tisk . . . do not resort to sarcasm. Duh . . . what is
> sprog? And you failed the qualifications . . . I think you
> are more than just a wee past your teens.
>
> >> When you scoff, make fun, attempt to invalidate my
> >> experience I can handle that, I'm a big boy now.
> >
> >I think those who scoff are horrid little pricks, Don. Don't get me
> >wrong, I think it's terrible that you've had hard times. The first time
> >I heard it, I thought, poor guy. The fifteenth time I had got to
> >thinking something different.
> >
> Although it has not been fifty times. You have answered a
> concern I have had.
> I was concerned I was reaching the point of turning some
> people off.
>
> >> But when
> >> you stand in my way of trying the best I know how to prevent
> >> future deaths by writing of my childhood experiences with
> >> the hope of bringing about a small amount of understanding
> >> and tolerance that may save a life you are just another pot
> >> hole on the path to that goal.
> >
> >The best you could do that was posting to misc.writing?
> >
> Again, do not underestimate this forum. I use think too big.
> Now if feel if you truly touch one person in a life time you
> have done something worthwhile.
>
> >> Think about that for about
> >> five minutes . . . during that time another teenager will
> >> have committed suicide.
> >
> >Gawd, you're low. Most people here don't like an argument, they accuse
> >their correspondents of all kinds. I've been called a few things
> >myself. But you're saying that your detractors are responsible for the
> >deaths of teenagers? You're a bad man, Don, to lay that shit on people.
> I will take responsibility for a poor way of putting it. It
> is not "my" detractors as if anyone who stands in my way is
> responsible for the deaths of teenagers.
>
> How would you say it if you have seen the results of a lack
> of education in tolerance bring about the conditions that
> contribute to a teen taking their life? That is a sincere
> question.
>
> >
> >Here's what it is, though, Don. You like sex with men. Big fucking
> >deal. I like blondes (my wife's one). End of fucking story. That's all
> >there is. Let's move on.
> >
> I suppose I could take that as a dismissal.
>
> And . . . thanks for not falling into the trap some do of
> thinking they have to be nice to poor little queer Don, or
> it might be seen as "not PC." I respect people who can stand
> up to me. I am a very strong headed, ask my mate but he is
> equally strong headed . . . suppose that is why we have
> lasted so long.
>
> Don
>
There you have it, folks: Don gives strong head.
--Geno<film at eleven>Royer
The Last Real Marlboro Man
of "at risk" teens with a higher likelihood of suicide. Two of the
most important factors seem to be bullying and a lack of family unity.
It would be interesting to learn if homosexuality is a "cause" of
increased risk, or just one factor in the overall makeup of a mind
that is at risk.
Homosexual youths do not have a monopoly on being victims of bullying.
I address the serious issue of bullying and other abuses and
mistreatments of school-aged children in several places in my
magazine:
http://www.waynelutz.net/conservativevoice/data/pages/41.htm
http://www.waynelutz.net/conservativevoice/articles/0011.html
http://www.waynelutz.net/conservativevoice/data/pages/36.htm
http://www.waynelutz.net/conservativevoice/data/pages/32.htm
http://www.waynelutz.net/conservativevoice/data/pages/33.htm
http://www.waynelutz.net/conservativevoice/data/pages/37.htm
http://www.waynelutz.net/conservativevoice/data/pages/39.htm
and so does Gene Royer. It's a horrible thing that I take seriously
- and I have my own theories on it - not the least of which is the
setting into which school forces a child, an unnatural social
environment consisting of hundreds of equal-age kids - but that's
another topic.
gekko
misc.writing I see little "Geno" <sire...@mindspring.com> saying:
>--Geno<normal in every way>Royer
>
There is NOTHING normal about having toupee-like
dark hair and a white slug crawling beneath one's
nose. Ask Don. Ask Lutz. Ask that cop over
in Long Guyland.
Stan (the Man)
Towse wrote:
>
> "Stan (the Man)" wrote:
> >
> > Marcus Winberg wrote:
> > >
> > > "The Last Real Marlboro Man" <wl...@home.com> skrev i meddelandet
> > > news:jntm7t4di56tq5jua...@4ax.com...
> > >
> > > [ snip ]
> > >
> > > > >You would think in this age of increased awareness and
> > > > >tolerance that gay teen suicide would have gone down. It has
> > > > >not. It is still about three times higher than heterosexual
> > > > >teens.
> > > >
> > > > Cite, please.
> > >
> > > But would you believe it, or give it credit? It's easy to do a net search
> > > and find dozens of instances of studies about it.
> >
> > Then it should be easy to post a cite.
>
> <http://www.pflag.org/schools/educators.htm>
>
> Whoops. PFLAG, a notoriously skewed source, eh?
>
> <http://www.educationworld.com/a_admin/admin087.shtml>
> <http://www.youth.org/loco/PERSONProject/Alerts/Old/1997/risk.html>
> <http://spunky.resnet.mtu.edu/articles/001.html>
> <http://spunky.resnet.mtu.edu/articles/004.html>
> <http://www.virtualcity.com/youthsuicide/gbsuicide.htm>
> <http://www.anythingthatmoves.com/ish17/queer-teen-suicide.html>
>
> <http://www.doe.mass.edu/lss/yrbs99/chapter8.html>
Thank you.
Stan
Bill Funke
<...>
>
><http://www.doe.mass.edu/lss/yrbs99/chapter8.html>
>
>Others.
>
>Note, though, especially this bit from the mass.edu cite:
>"Sexual minority youth (i.e, adolescents who either identified
>themselves as gay, lesbian, or bisexual and/or those who had any
>same-sex sexual experience) reported higher rates than their peers of
>considering suicide (49% vs. 20%), making a suicide plan (39% vs. 15%),
>actually attempting suicide (29% vs. 7%), and of requiring medical
>attention for a suicide attempt (18% vs. 3%). Differences were
>statistically significant both for self-identified sexual orientation
>and for same-sex behavior."
>
Lot of interesting stuff on that page. Like so many things, though,
there is always more. The 1998 Report of The National Criminal
Justice Commission mentions that one out of six incarcerated
adolescents attempt suicide (curiously, about the same percentage as
the general adolescent population, according to doe site) and that
children from violent homes are six times more likely to attempt
suicide.
Undoubtedly, there are even more factors at play, but with all of the
teenage depression and suicidal tendencies around, I would imagine
that a kid who thought him or herself homosexual would have a much
harder time of it-- whether in or out of the closet. Adding that to
the teenage angst could be unbearable to many of them.
This is frightening stuff.
Bill
-------------------
"Da Joisey Page" (A Work in Progress)
http://wfnk.home.mindspring.com
Blanche Nonken
> I've got hair in places some men don't even have places.
Me too!
Keltic
<wl...@home.com> wrote:
>setting into which school forces a child, an unnatural social
>environment consisting of hundreds of equal-age kids - but that's
>another topic.
And an environment where every kid seems to want to be as much like
the others as possible, and any discernable difference is reason for
verbal and physical bullying. Me, I had big ears *and* glasses.
Cheers, Keltic
Check out my articles at:
http://www.themestream.com/authors/90411.htm
Check out my movie reviews at:
http://comments.imdb.com/CommentsAuthor?104469
The Last Real Marlboro Man
wrote:
>And an environment where every kid seems to want to be as much like
>the others as possible, and any discernable difference is reason for
>verbal and physical bullying. Me, I had big ears *and* glasses.
See? My point exactly. Big ears and glasses - or any number of other
situations, real or imagined, could be every bit as dangerous to a
child in school as a minority sexual preference.
-
wayne
Blanche Nonken
> On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 11:22:55 +1100, Keltic <kel...@SPAM.zip.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> >And an environment where every kid seems to want to be as much like
> >the others as possible, and any discernable difference is reason for
> >verbal and physical bullying. Me, I had big ears *and* glasses.
>
> See? My point exactly. Big ears and glasses - or any number of other
> situations, real or imagined, could be every bit as dangerous to a
> child in school as a minority sexual preference.
Doesn't even have to be that obvious. Just being the only kid in the
school with immigrant parents is enough.
Gene Royer
"Blanche Nonken" <mombl...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:3afda5c1....@news4.bellatlantic.net...
One of the things school boards should address is: what are the attitudes
and understandings we want our kids to obtain from the school because of its
existence and its involvement in their lives?
School boards draw a blank face when that question is put to them. They
cannot articulate that simple, but obvious, benefit which should be
constantly addressed in favor of children.
Of course, one of the attitudes which needs to be addressed is that of
bullying. One of the understandings is the *law of cause and effect*.
<that is> the effect bullying has on another human being. Some school
boards (namely the ones which have sustained a tragedy) have begun to
address that very important issue.
When I was a child I was quite skinny, and the bigger boys wanted to pick on
me. They changed their mind after I cracked one of them with a brick. He
grew up to be a policeman in that small town, and had difficulty speaking
clearly for years. I spent a week sitting in the principal's outer office
because of it, and a little girl named Mary Elizabeth came by every day and
blushed at me. One time she sent me a note saying she liked me. There were
three little x's at the bottom.
Isn't this an interesting posting?
--Geno
Don May
<wl...@home.com> wrote:
>According to Sal's links below, homosexual teens are only one sub-set
>of "at risk" teens with a higher likelihood of suicide. Two of the
>most important factors seem to be bullying and a lack of family unity.
>
>It would be interesting to learn if homosexuality is a "cause" of
>increased risk, or just one factor in the overall makeup of a mind
>that is at risk.
>
If I understand the question correctly. Off the top of my
head I do not think there is anything inherent in being
homosexual that would increase the risk of suicide. Take
away all the societal stigmas of being gay and you still
have a teenager, homosexual or heterosexual, who is dealing
with problems that they cannot cope with and they choose to
commit suicide.
However . . . when you add the additional mental turmoil
caused by having same gender attraction and are under great
pressure by family, peers, religion and societal prejudices
to reject your feelings and when you do find that you cannot
reject those feelings it increases the likely hood of not
being able to mentally cope and making the choice to commit
suicide.
Honestly when I relate my experience I am trying to shed
some understanding on the magnitude of the additional burden
a gay teen is carrying around. It is not saying other teens
do not have loads to bear that are just as much a concern
and need to be addressed.
Of course we are not all the same as teens, but in general
during the teen years there is a high level of wanting to be
accepted and by peers in particular. What compounds the
problem is it is often a period of rebellion against adult
rules and "wisdom" and teens focus toward peers for values
and acceptance. When they find little, no, and often hostile
feedback from their peers they are left alone trying to come
to a resolution. Add to that the fear of coming out to their
parents, the fear of rejection and you have a very ripe
environment for suicide.
Taking my personal experience, of studies, and statistics on
suicide it is not surprising that gay teens have a higher
instance of contemplating, attempting and a successful
suicide rate higher percentage wise than teens without the
additional burden of sexuality conflict.
If we can't somehow decrease foster tolerance of diversity
down at the peer level in high schools it is a loosing
battle.
Gay or straight bullying can send a teen over the edge. Gay
or straight a dysfunctional family life can send a teen over
the edge. When you add a climate of fear of rejection above
that experienced by most teens you end up with a
disproportionate suicide rate. That does not mean I think
one should focus only on the cause of the disproportionate
rate. The solution to teenage suicide regardless of sexual
orientation has to be addressed within all the parameters.
Don
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The most violent element in society is ignorance.
--Emma Goldman
gekko
<http://www.computerbits.com/search/cbo?stx=author&sapn=Nancy+Ahern
>, turned to misc.writing, and posted:
>Honestly when I relate my experience I am trying to shed
>some understanding on the magnitude of the additional burden
>a gay teen is carrying around. It is not saying other teens
>do not have loads to bear that are just as much a concern
>and need to be addressed.
>
i understand this, which is one reason i find and always
have found your posts on this subject to be valuable. i
have a son. he is now a teen. and i want to make sure that
if he does harbor same-sex feelings that he NOT feel any
undue pressures as a result of that ... at least coming
from me or anyone else in his family, nor coming from
our church. i have less control over his peers, but i
can hopefully help him find a way to cope with that.
in discussions with him, i've discovered he seems to be
attracted to girls, so my concern over this matter is
slightly lessened. i STILL have to deal with a son who
is smaller in size than most of his peers.
but he's good-looking, aggressive, and smart. he's also
found a terrific group of kids who're his friends, also
smart, and all of them exhibit a great deal of compassion.
well, as much compassion as 13 year olds can have.
Don May
out very convoluted.
If we can't somehow foster tolerance of diversity
down at the peer level in high schools it is a loosing
battle.
not this:
The Last Real Marlboro Man
<sire...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Isn't this an interesting posting?
Yes, as a matter of fact, it is.
- Wayne
The Last Real Marlboro Man
>Honestly when I relate my experience I am trying to shed
>some understanding on the magnitude of the additional burden
>a gay teen is carrying around.
But aren't you presuming to know that *every*, or even most,
homosexual teens carry this "additional burden?
Can't you see that there may very well be many who are perfectly
comfortable and confident with themselves? Aren't you guilty of
profiling?
The Last Real Marlboro Man
<wl...@home.com> wrote:
>I am dead serious, Deck. I demand it.
I'm still waiting. Is there something wrong with Deja's archives?
Don May
<wl...@home.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 02:01:09 GMT, Don May <donb...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>Honestly when I relate my experience I am trying to shed
>>some understanding on the magnitude of the additional burden
>>a gay teen is carrying around.
>
>But aren't you presuming to know that *every*, or even most,
>homosexual teens carry this "additional burden?
I am not presuming "every" homosexual teen does. I will
stick with most for this reason. When having to make a call
on it, I look at personal experience, my teen years I would
say from about 12 or 13 to when I first found sought out
other gays to associate with that was when I was about 20
years old. That is just my personal experience to draw on.
Then I have 43 years of experience living in the gay
community, 15 of those years not just in the broader gay
community but in the middle of a gay ghetto, Castro street
in San Francisco involved in some political groups. Involved
in some of the social concerns of the community such as
substance abuse.
Living in a marginalized group a sense of family develops
around shared experiences. The most common bond most gays
have is "coming out" the moment when you overcome your fear
of rejection and concern for personal safety, seek out other
gays and admit both to yourself and another human what you
really feel behind the mask you have been wearing. Part of
sharing that experience is the sharing of living under the
cloak of fear prior to it. There are some exceptions. And
the experience is not nearly as fearful as it was in my
youth where there was no visible gay community for support.
I don't know what else to say. You either accept that I
have enough exposure to enough people to come to a fair
conclusion or you don't. If you are the type who only trusts
official studies, by folks with educational credentials.
Well what can I say? I wasn't studying it ... I was there.
>
>Can't you see that there may very well be many who are perfectly
>comfortable and confident with themselves? Aren't you guilty of
>profiling?
I've know some teens that were and they are truly
exceptional kids. Bill is involved with a local scholarship
award group which yearly gives out scholarships to teens.
The purpose of the scholarship is to reward graduating high
school seniors who are instrumental in educating their peers
and teachers and administrators in GLBT sensitivity and
issues, are involved the community supporting the same, and
who have promoted tolerance and understanding in the High
Schools environment. It matters not if they are gay or
straight. We are always overwhelmed at the courage and sheer
humanity of these kids both the gay and straight applicants
and the final recipients. Not to mention how touching it is
when on occasion a parent will choose to introduce their son
or daughter at the reward ceremony.
The inward battle is often not based on whether inwardly you
accept your feelings and are confidant. What I am getting
at is regardless of whether a teen accepts their self
inwardly. Life can be rather unbearable because of the
constant fear of rejection, if unlucky and become suspect,
the bullying, and when I was young in the fifties a little
thing like the beating and killing of queers was as a mater
of routine overlooked by many local law enforcement
agencies.
Profiling . . . at what point does it go from having to come
to a reasonable decision of what your experience tells you
true and that of being guilty of profiling. If I had said
"all" then I would expect you, and rightfully so, to
question my action. I don't know what to say. Perhaps some
of the rest of the group will have some thoughts as to when
it crosses the line from an example based on the majority
known in a lifetime of experience, with an ear to the pulse
of the community, to outright profiling. Perhaps you could
say I am profiling. But I know there are exceptions and not
afraid to admit that. As long as I keep a sense of
perspective, check with people I trust to confront me, and
don't cross the line into believing only my conclusions are
the absolute right ones I feel comfortable coming to and
using some generalized statements.
Dr Zen
Don May <donb...@home.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 01:49:52 GMT, Dr Zen
> <dr_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
Okay. I'm always open to changing my opinion.
> >> Most of us have known folks whose life is one great tragedy
> >> and they seem to love reminding you of that. I suspect this
> >> wallowing in their misfortune brings them a reward, most
> >> likely gaining attention which makes them feel loved in a
> >> strange sort of way, attention and love they are missing
> >> from other sources in their lives. I know people like that.
> >> They call up to tell you about how horrible there last
> >> operation was. The tenor of their voice is one of pride that
> >> their operation was as bad as it could get. Makes me feel
> >> like they think I have a gold star to award them and they
> >> are calling to collect it.
> >
> >Or guys who got gay-bashed and think that makes them "special", you
> >mean?
>
> Nope. Reading between the lines again are you.
It's not exactly *hiding* between them, Don!
> It simply
> means someone beat the shit out of them because they didn't
> like who they were.
That happens for all sorts of reasons. I used to get beaten up because
I liked the wrong music and wore the wrong clothes. It's not the
totality of my experience though.
> You cannot expect people to love you more for it, Don. It
> seems
> >to me, on reasonably short acquaintance with you, that the tenor of
> >your posts is "I am gay and I have suffered for it, and you should be
> >nice and love me for that".
>
> Come on Zen, don't buy into that tired old line. It's kind
> of a one trick pony too if you look at it. What part of "I'm
> not looking for sympathy" do you not understand. Last thing
> I want in this stage of my life is to be surrounded by " I
> love you because I feel sorry for you." That's not love.
No, but it's how you've come across. If I'm wrong, fine. I've misread
you.
> Well, hello! There's plenty of suffering in
> >the world, you haven't the monopoly on it.
> >
> Where did you see that in-between the lines? Those darn
> white spaces again.
> You think I am so shallow I think I have a monopoly on it?
Yes, I do. There's a great deal of it around.
> I
> see suffering in this world every day. I have a bloody
> perspective on that. See you have defined me according to
> your conditioned attitudes. Got news for you. I didn't state
> I have a monopoly on it and I sure as hell don't think I do.
I don't have any "conditioned attitudes". Quite the opposite. You'll
find me mostly refreshingly free of them.
>
> >> There are other reasons to share past injustices than to
> >> gain sympathy and attention.
> >
> >But none of them really apply in your case.
> >
> Explain . . . don't throw out blank statements.
I believe you are riding a pony, Don. You are, at least at the moment,
riding your sexuality for one purpose or another. Partly I believe
because it readily makes battlelines.
>
> >> One is a reminder of past
> >> mistakes with the hope we can learn from them and in some
> >> small measure prevent future generations from the same
> >> indignities.
> >
> >Give it a break. Tell it to the marines, not a Usenet newsgroup.
> >
> You underestimate the forum.
I don't think so. It's never risen much above the mediocre.
> >> I have a good life now. A fine mate for the past 22 years. A
> >> home, great neighbors all living in a peaceful environment.
> >
> >Great. That's wonderful.
> >
> Thanks I do too.
No, that's great, really. I meant that. I'm glad. I wish we could all
say that.
> >> We do have rare minor disagreements, none which has anything
> >> to do with our very diverse race, ethnicity and sexual
> >> orientation mix.
> >
> >Sounds fantastic. My neighbours are all white, Aussies or Kiwis of
> >English extraction. Fucking boring actually. I miss my Somali
neighbour
> >I had in Shepherd's Bush. Now, he really had had a shitty life. Most
> >positive guy you ever met though.
> >
> Zen. . . you only see a part of me here addressing a narrow
> range of subjects. People who live next door to me think I
> am very positive and I am most of the time. Serious is just
> one part of my personality.
Yes, but I am saying that you are addressing a narrow range of
subjects. That's what I'm saying. You could just say, fuck off, that's
all I want to talk about!
> >> Bill and I are seen as "just another
> >> couple." My day is not consumed with the past nor "being
> >> gay" it's more about fixing the old faucet on the sink,
> >> grocery shopping, and keeping a hundred year old wood house
> >> from becoming part of my compost pile.
> >
> >But you feel the need to whinge about it here. Fine. Whatever. But
> >don't complain when people accuse you of being a bore, Don.
> >
> Did you call that last paragraph whinging?
No. You know I didn't.
> >> However, as I age I see some of the same injustices I faced
> >> in the past still living on. I hear of, read of, and have
> >> met parents whose children have died by their own hand,
> >> children who were going through many of the same conflicts
> >> I faced as a gay youth. I thought about taking my own life
> >> on many occasions as a teen but somehow I found the strength
> >> to go on, but far too many children do not.
> >
> >Yes, it's a tragedy. Can we move on now? This is not a fucking gay
teen
> >support group.
> >
> This is misc.writing it has a history of covering about
> every subject under the sun and a few so far out that only
> the poster seems to know where he is coming from.
It still isn't a gay teen support group. Gay teens are not going to
come here to learn about the world, Don. You are suffering from a
complaint common to members of this group - an inflated sense of its
place in the world.
> >> You would think in this age of increased awareness and
> >> tolerance that gay teen suicide would have gone down. It has
> >> not. It is still about three times higher than heterosexual
> >> teens.
> >
> >Teen suicide is higher in Queensland than it is in the UK. About
three
> >times higher, in fact. Nightmare, eh?
> >
> yep, it is. I've only visited you part of the country once.
*whooosh* I'm afraid.
> >> Intolerance of diversity down at the high school level is
> >> still a major problem.
> >
> >What do you think of Israel, Don? Shocking, eh? And did you know that
> >amphetamine use is up, what did that guy say, 70 pc in the last year
in
> >Queensland? Idiot kids, eh? What do they think they're doing with
> >amphetamines? They should try smack. In my day, at least the teens
> >steered clear of whizz.
> >
> I've wondered what is happening over there that drug use is
> so on the increase. If some of the movies coming out of
> Australia are any indication of reality . . . big problem.
I have a theory. The suburbs are horrible, soulless places. There is no
sense of community. Australians, more than most people, feel rootless,
unwanted, unloved. They turn to drugs because, let's face it, drugs
love you. They desire you 24 hours a day. They never want to let you go.
> >> Most attempts to teach teens
> >> tolerance for their gay peers is loudly opposed, labeled as
> >> "promoting a gay lifestyle" based on the wrong assumption
> >> anyone can be recruited to change their sexual orientation.
> >
> >Do you think that whole discussion changed nancy's mind one iota? Or
> >Wayne's?
>
> I don't believed in miracles. <g> What . . . Geno isn't on
> the list.
You know, I think you underestimate Geno. He probably *is* gay.
> >This is a playground, Don, not a pulpit.
> >
> Hey, fellow that is your definition of MW . first and
> foremost it is a play pen. But damned near every one here
> has taken their turn on the soap box down in the town
> square.
You are not "damned near every one here". I am addressing you on that
basis. There is something about you more valuable than some of the
people who linger round here. Your posts are interesting, apart from
anything else, but wasted in talking with the likes of nancy and wayne
about things that mean too much to you and not much to them.
> >> These are our children, they are the future.
> >
> >Oh gawd, Don, you'll have me reaching for the lacey. I can't believe
> >you said that. The idea that a teenager's death is any more tragic
than
> >the death of someone, say, in their twenties is utterly ridiculous. A
> >death is a death. Don't give me this "they are the future" shit.
> >Someone you don't know is someone you don't know, period. Deaths are
> >tragic for the people involved and those that know them, no matter
what
> >the age or circumstances.
> >
> Slow down . . . Just because I said teen suicide is a
> tragedy does not exclude any other deaths as not being
> equally tragic. Think !!! Read my words. You are projecting
> your thoughts. Look again . . . Where did I say or insinuate
> that a suicide in any other age group was any the less
> important to those who know them? I was focusing on teen
> suicide. Not excluding all others as unimportant.
That is exactly your implication. The "children are our future" line
certainly heads that way.
> >> I happen to
> >> think that in a sense all children are our children
> >> regardless of who gave birth to them and whether we are,
> >> married, single, of any particular race, ethnicity, or
> >> sexual orientation parents have the responsibility and
> >> society has the responsibility to nourish them and protect
> >> them.
> >
> >How lovely. You couldn't see your way clear to sending me a couple of
> >hundred dollars, could you? Ever since we had the sprog, money's been
> >really tight. You could call it child maintenance if you like.
> >
> Tisk, Tisk . . . do not resort to sarcasm. Duh . . . what is
> sprog?
Child.
> And you failed the qualifications . . . I think you
> are more than just a wee past your teens.
You said in a sense all the children are your children. I'm saying how
about mine!
>
> >> When you scoff, make fun, attempt to invalidate my
> >> experience I can handle that, I'm a big boy now.
> >
> >I think those who scoff are horrid little pricks, Don. Don't get me
> >wrong, I think it's terrible that you've had hard times. The first
time
> >I heard it, I thought, poor guy. The fifteenth time I had got to
> >thinking something different.
> >
> Although it has not been fifty times. You have answered a
> concern I have had.
> I was concerned I was reaching the point of turning some
> people off.
That, in maybe a too subtle way for you, is exactly what I am
suggesting to you. You are reaching the point. Broaden out. Give a
bigger picture, play a concerto and not one note.
> >> But when
> >> you stand in my way of trying the best I know how to prevent
> >> future deaths by writing of my childhood experiences with
> >> the hope of bringing about a small amount of understanding
> >> and tolerance that may save a life you are just another pot
> >> hole on the path to that goal.
> >
> >The best you could do that was posting to misc.writing?
> >
> Again, do not underestimate this forum. I use think too big.
> Now if feel if you truly touch one person in a life time you
> have done something worthwhile.
Well, shit, Don, that's... lovely. You should do greetings cards.
> >> Think about that for about
> >> five minutes . . . during that time another teenager will
> >> have committed suicide.
> >
> >Gawd, you're low. Most people here don't like an argument, they
accuse
> >their correspondents of all kinds. I've been called a few things
> >myself. But you're saying that your detractors are responsible for
the
> >deaths of teenagers? You're a bad man, Don, to lay that shit on
people.
> I will take responsibility for a poor way of putting it. It
> is not "my" detractors as if anyone who stands in my way is
> responsible for the deaths of teenagers.
Sounded like it.
>
> How would you say it if you have seen the results of a lack
> of education in tolerance bring about the conditions that
> contribute to a teen taking their life? That is a sincere
> question.
In my own small way I work to bring about that tolerance, Don, and
believe you me, that's as hard a job in Brisbane as it was when I lived
in the west of England. I don't believe for one minute that it'll be
achieved through Usenet though.
> >Here's what it is, though, Don. You like sex with men. Big fucking
> >deal. I like blondes (my wife's one). End of fucking story. That's
all
> >there is. Let's move on.
> >
> I suppose I could take that as a dismissal.
No, a suggestion that we keep walking.
> And . . . thanks for not falling into the trap some do of
> thinking they have to be nice to poor little queer Don, or
> it might be seen as "not PC." I respect people who can stand
> up to me. I am a very strong headed, ask my mate but he is
> equally strong headed . . . suppose that is why we have
> lasted so long.
No. I'm saying you're not "poor little queer Don". I'm saying
you're "Don", why should I give a fuck who you like to sleep with? You
are a totality, you can't be summed up by one aspect of your person. Or
can you?
Zen
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Dr Zen
neural_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <95fo3u$49o$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Dr Zen <dr_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> > Or guys who got gay-bashed and think that makes them "special", you
seems
> > to me, on reasonably short acquaintance with you, that the tenor of
> > your posts is "I am gay and I have suffered for it, and you should
be
> in
> > the world, you haven't the monopoly on it.
>
you
> is about two posts long (one each) but it sounds, Dr. Zen, like you're
> happily ignoring the tenor of the post you're responding to.
Not at all, but you're welcome to your opinion.
> Don I
> thought put his biography into proper perspective and I get no
> impression he's "whinging" about anything (how do you pronounce that,
> by the way? I've always wondered).
Soft 'g'. I think it's your short acquaintance with Don, and me, that
has led you to say what you say, and nothing else.
> Just pointing out that there is a
> legit reason or two to relate his story.
Yes, I didn't say there wasn't. He's related it before, and before, and
before.
> Seems to me, if you live such that you might provide a little hope to
> those who need it, and thus reduce the suicide rate a wee bit, you're
> doing something a lot more than playing victim.
Okay. If you think that posting to misc.writing will achieve that aim,
then fine, I don't have any argument with you. I don't think you're
very smart to think it, though.
> BTW your comment that teen suicide is 3x in Queensland as in the UK
> leads me to wonder if that has anything to do with Oz being so
> notoriously homophobic
No, it has everything to do with Oz being a dead-end kind of place. It
certainly is homophobic, disgustingly so, but if you think that all
teen suicides here are gay, you're wrong.
> a place where even more of those who don't fit
> in would just rather die.
It's very easy not to fit in here. You don't have to be gay. Try
thinking, that will just about put you outside the norm.
> I was in the train station in Cairns once
> and there was queer graffiti all over the men's room walls. Even I
was
> shocked (and I'm from the San Francisco region).
Shocked that there was graffiti? Shocked at its nature? I don't
understand.
> Queensland must have
> an untold story or two, what?
I just live here. If you're trying to make some kind of point, it's
probably nothing I haven't thought myself.
Blanche Nonken
> Isn't this an interesting posting?
I have to go to work now.
The Last Real Marlboro Man
>Profiling . . . at what point does it go from having to come
>to a reasonable decision of what your experience tells you
>true and that of being guilty of profiling.
Bingo. Tell that to the Jersey State Troopers.
Don May
<wl...@home.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 05:17:03 GMT, Don May <donb...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>Profiling . . . at what point does it go from having to come
>>to a reasonable decision of what your experience tells you
>>true and that of being guilty of profiling.
>
>Bingo. Tell that to the Jersey State Troopers.
>
>- Wayne
Uh . .. could you clarify please. right off hand I do not
recall questionable Jersey State Trooper profiling practices
in the news lately.
Don
>-----------------------------------------------------
>The Tocquevillian
>http://www.waynelutz.net/conservativevoice
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Deck Deckert
> >Hardly. You and Gene call him a 'victim', for example, and put him down
> >because of who he is, who God made him.
Wayne Lutz wrote:
> Oh? I *defy* you to find *one* post where *I* put him down "because of
> who he is". No, I *demand* that you either do so or retract your
> statement publicly.
Demand away. I am talking about my perception of several years of your
posts on homosexuality. I don't play the deja wars game. I stand by my
perception that the sum total of your posts on the matter, including your
constant he's-playing-the-victim refrain, put him and all other gay people
down.
If that isn't what you mean your posts to say, you might wish to
re-examine how you word them.
Deck
Gene Royer
> On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 10:28:20 GMT, The Last Real Marlboro Man
> <wl...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 05:17:03 GMT, Don May <donb...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Profiling . . . at what point does it go from having to come
> >>to a reasonable decision of what your experience tells you
> >>true and that of being guilty of profiling.
> >
> >Bingo. Tell that to the Jersey State Troopers.
> >
> >- Wayne
>
> Uh . .. could you clarify please. right off hand I do not
> recall questionable Jersey State Trooper profiling practices
> in the news lately.
>
> Don
>
The very good point Wayne made has to do with going by *past experience* or
*track record* in order to predict or *profile* a particular group. As in
racial profiling or homosexual profiling. The court in NJ said when state
troopers did that in order to nab drug dealers and/or gun runners on the
turnpike, it was prejudice (discrimination). Even though 77 crooks were
caught, all of whom fit the profile (common-sense description) or a typical
drug/gun offender, the court threw out all the cases and returned the
offenders to society.
You can read about it on: http://www.waynelutz.net/conservativevoice It was
in all the papers.
Of course, liberals do it all the time, and you just did. Welcome to the
world of bigotry, good fairy.
--Geno<glad I could clear that up for you>Royer
The Last Real Marlboro Man
>Demand away. I am talking about my perception of several years of your
>posts on homosexuality.
You are talking shit. My posts on "homosexuality" are practically
non-existant. I, to this day, have *never* discussed my views on
homosexuality on this group. You don't know what I think. You only
know your own prejudice.
>I don't play the deja wars game.
Nice cop out. You lie about me and then present yourself as being
above having to prove your words. Slimy tactic, Deck, but it's all
you have, short of admitting that you are wrong.
>I stand by my
>perception that the sum total of your posts on the matter, including your
>constant he's-playing-the-victim refrain,
Constant? I've said it *twice*, Deck. Twice. The "sum total" of my
posts on this subject is miniscule.
Your "perceptions" are not based on my posts, because there are no
such posts upon which to base such a "perception". Your "perception",
Deck, is a "prejudice", based on nothing more than the fact that I am
a social and political conservative. In other words, you are a bigot
of the worst sort.
>If that isn't what you mean your posts to say, you might wish to
>re-examine how you word them.
You might wish to re-examine your prejudice, your bigotry, and your
intolerance.
I am deeply disappointed, Deck. This filthy post of yours marks a
turning point in our relationship.
- Wayne
Gene Royer
"The Last Real Marlboro Man" <wl...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3a7d85df....@news4.bellatlantic.net...
Wayne, does this mean you're not going to the wrevel with me? Whoa.
Scary.
--Geno
gekko
>On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 10:28:20 GMT, The Last Real Marlboro Man
><wl...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 05:17:03 GMT, Don May <donb...@home.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Profiling . . . at what point does it go from having to come
>>>to a reasonable decision of what your experience tells you
>>>true and that of being guilty of profiling.
>>
>>Bingo. Tell that to the Jersey State Troopers.
>>
>>- Wayne
>
>Uh . .. could you clarify please. right off hand I do not
>recall questionable Jersey State Trooper profiling practices
>in the news lately.
It's sort of like reading a thread, seeing someone making
fun of the way George Dubya Bush looks or talks, and then
applying the "profile" of "liberal" and slamming them.
Only with the Jersey State Troopers, they did it with drug
people.
Don May
Clear it up . . . hell, you just threw mud in the water.
I did not recall seeing the articles on that particular
situation. I asked what he was referring to.
Don't you ever become bored with that stupid
"liberals do it all the time line?" Boooooring.
Don (ka chunk, ka chunk, ka chunk, ka chunk, ka . . . . .
chunk . . . toss that record out.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Give credit where credit is due my dear.
He's only a hypocrite when he's awake.
-- The Good Fairy
gekko
>Don't you ever become bored with that stupid
>"liberals do it all the time line?" Boooooring.
>
liberals *do* do it all the time. geno's neglecting
to say that conservatives do it all the time, and
moderates do it all the time. he's just focusing
on his own particular prejudice. it's okay, right?
i mean, if deck can show off his prejudices, then
geno may too!
Gene Royer
I'm gratified that you are concerned with whether I am bored, good fairy.
But it stings you where it hurts when I say it because it's the truth. So,
I'll keep saying it as long as liberals keeping acting like liberals. Don't
hold your breath. So, I gave you the article's URL. Get after it.
--Geno<you'll be a better man for it--damn I'm funny>Royer
Gene Royer
"gekko" <na...@gekkografx.com> wrote in message
news:Xns903E72BC2...@24.1.240.74...
> Money talks. Don May <donb...@home.com> posts this:
>
> >Don't you ever become bored with that stupid
> >"liberals do it all the time line?" Boooooring.
> >
>
> liberals *do* do it all the time. geno's neglecting
> to say that conservatives do it all the time, and
> moderates do it all the time. he's just focusing
> on his own particular prejudice. it's okay, right?
> i mean, if deck can show off his prejudices, then
> geno may too!
>
> --
> gekko, formerly known as nancy
>
There was no reason for Geno to have to say *conservatives do it all the
time* because the liberals and the moderates keep that mantra going full
tilt. Prejudice is not against the law. But liberals don't like it when
somebody points out their own. They just can't stand the light of truth
being shone on them.
Moderates are the goody-goody referees who think they, and only they, have a
copy of the rule book. *Rules* that don't exist, BTW. They think they know
better than anyone what is best for everyone. Do this; do that; you can't
say that because it's not *fair*. Lordy lordyŽ. Give me a major break.
Whoop!
Towse
Someone said something like:
However, as I age I see some of the same injustices I faced in the past
still living on. I hear of, read of, and have met parents whose
children have died by their own hand, children who were going through
many of the same conflicts I faced as a kid with Christian parents. I
thought about taking my own life on many occasions as a teen but
somehow I found the strength to go on, but far too many children do not.
You would think in this age of increased awareness and tolerance that
Christian teen suicide would have gone down. It has not. It is still
about three times higher than non-Christian teens.
Intolerance of diversity down at the high school level is still a major
problem. Most attempts to teach teens tolerance for their Christian
peers is loudly opposed, labeled as "promoting a Christian lifestyle"
based on the wrong assumption anyone can be recruited to change their
religious orientation. The message sent out to Christian teens is that
being Christian is wrong, they are wrong, ideological mistakes. Unable
to cope with the constant fear of rejection of friends, family, and
society they take their own lives. And that is truly sad.
All teen suicide regardless of religious orientation is tragic. These
are our children, they are the future. I happen to think that in a sense
all children are our children regardless of who gave birth to them and
whether we are, married, single, of any particular race, ethnicity, or
sexual orientation parents have the responsibility and society has the
responsibility to nourish them and protect them.
Someone else answered something like:
According to Sal's links, Christian teens are only one sub-set of "at
risk" teens with a higher likelihood of suicide. Two of the most
important factors seem to be bullying and a lack of family unity.
It would be interesting to learn if Christianity is a "cause" of
increased risk, or just one factor in the overall makeup of a mind that
is at risk.
Christian youths do not have a monopoly on being victims of bullying.
Hm.
Sal
Bill Funke
>On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 10:28:20 GMT, The Last Real Marlboro Man
><wl...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 04 Feb 2001 05:17:03 GMT, Don May <donb...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Profiling . . . at what point does it go from having to come
>>>to a reasonable decision of what your experience tells you
>>>true and that of being guilty of profiling.
>>
>>Bingo. Tell that to the Jersey State Troopers.
>>
>>- Wayne
>
>Uh . .. could you clarify please. right off hand I do not
>recall questionable Jersey State Trooper profiling practices
>in the news lately.
Prolly wouldn't be much in your news, except as a footnote in
Whitman's confirmation hearings.
It's been big news around here, though. The head of the State Police
got fired, a few kids in a van got shot by Turnpike patrol, there was
just a $12 million settlement, and the attorney general got some heat
as he was apponted to the state Supreme Court and was "shocked,
shocked" to know all this was going on under his watch.
I'm not sure why Wayne brought it up, but it's a sore issue here.
There are still quite a few apologists for racial profiling, and any
cop knows that profiling is a major weapon in crime fighting. The
problem we had here was that the troopers were regularly pulling over
anyone dark in an expensive car.
Cornell West, now holding the chair in Black Studies at Harvard has
said that when he commuted in his BMW from New Haven to his job in the
philosophy department at Princeton, he was pulled over a couple of
times a month. It was just something he had to deal with. He said
what really pissed him off was when the cop asked him what he was
doing on the Turnpike, and he said he was a professor at Princeton,
the reaction was "Yeah, riiiiight...."
Bill
-------------------
"Da Joisey Page" (A Work in Progress)
http://wfnk.home.mindspring.com
Steve Pritchard
news:95g02f$a9g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> BTW your comment that teen suicide is 3x in Queensland as in the UK
> leads me to wonder if that has anything to do with Oz being so
> in would just rather die.
Why must teen suicides equate to problems of sexual orientation? Teens
commit suicides for many reasons and their sexuality is but one.
Steve Pritchard
news:bbon7tgtcppr4r7cr...@4ax.com...
> If one posts here, one is subject to response. No one
> is off limits - not Don, not me, not you. In fact, in responding to
> me and mentioning Gene, you are mentioning two people who have been
> the recipients of more unfounded abuse in this forum than most. We
> don't whine about it.
I don't think it's unfounded abuse, Wayne. You and Geno hold personal views
which you feel no shame in expounding at length sometimes. So does Don.
Anyone who put themselves up to be shot at like that WILL be shot at - it's
Usenet. The more "radical" your opinions sounds, the more the likelihood
that what is returned will be abusive.
Such is life.
Yes, you don't whine, but surely you expect the abuse when you put such
stuff up. I can't imagine you don't.
--
Steve Pritchard
Rage Games (Sheffield)
Steve Pritchard
> On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 03:15:41 GMT, The Last Real Marlboro Man
> <wl...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 00:42:42 GMT, Don May <donb...@home.com> wrote:
> >>You would think in this age of increased awareness and
> >>not. It is still about three times higher than heterosexual
> >>teens.
> >
> >Cite, please.
>
> First I want to make it clear I do not in any way think a
> gay teen suicide is any more or less tragic than that in the
> general teenage population. From best I can determine teen
> suicide is on the rise in all categories. In some areas of
> the states and the world on an alarming rise.
>
> The most often quoted source for gay male and lesbian youth,
> I wish there were more recent government reports on the
> national level, is:
>
> U. S. Department of Health and Human Services, "Gay Male and
> Lesbian Youth Suicide," by Paul Gibson, in Report of the
> Secretary's Task Force on Youth Suicide, ed. Marcia R.
> Feinleib, Washington, DC, January 1989
>
> Individual states also have done more recent studies and a
> search on the web will come up with those studies. I try and
> look at the overall teen figures as well as those focused on
> gay teen because from my stand point they are all equally
> tragic to the families involved.
Not just from your stand point, from everyones. Kids killing themselves is a
bad thing. People killing themselves is a bad thing. Age, sexuality,
reasons - none of these really affects the tragedy of a suicide.
> It is very difficult to come up with exact figures on gay
> teen suicide for obvious reasons. It is a bit difficult to
> determine if it was teen suicide for gay reasons unless it
> was know they were gay, or there was evidence that was found
> in their belongings, known harassment at school. or an
> admission in a suicide note. Many do not leave notes as they
> have killed themselves because they can not find the
> strength or support to come out so obviously often do not
> leave any explanation in a note.
And, just for the sake of argument, how do we know that someone who is gay
and commits suicide has done it *because* they are gay. They might be very
much at ease with their sexuality, have suffered absolutely no abuse or
victimisation because they are gay, but killed themselves because of some
unrequited love, or depression over money or drugs, or because they can't
find work; in fact, they may have killed themselves for any of the reasons
that teens kill themselves for and it not be connected *in any way* to the
fact that they are gay. The terms "gay teen suicide" is a self-contained,
neat and tidy term that suggest all people who are gay and commit suicide do
it because they are gay. That, I'm afraid, is not acceptable. Do all short
people that commit suicide do so because they are short? Of course they
don't and laying the blame on that single reason is both foolish and
misleading.
> The exact percentage is not really the issue. I used what is
> generally used in most reports I have read. I suspect I
> would be better off not giving any percentages, to avoid
> accusations of distorting the facts in order to raise alarm.
> One percent would still be too many. I will do some more
> research.
No disrespect, Don, but I'd suggest that if you are looking in the places
you are likely to be looking you'll find supportive evidence that gay teen
suicide is exactly the hotbed issue you beleive it to be. Know that when I
searched for drug-related teen suicides, I was able to find a massive amount
of corroborative evidence that suggested drugs were the major cause too.
Statistics can show whatever you want them to show, especially if complied
by people who have cause to promote one set of numbers over another.
Steve Pritchard
news:3afda5c1....@news4.bellatlantic.net...
> > wrote:
> >
> > >And an environment where every kid seems to want to be as much like
> > >the others as possible, and any discernable difference is reason for
> > >verbal and physical bullying. Me, I had big ears *and* glasses.
> >
> > See? My point exactly. Big ears and glasses - or any number of other
> > situations, real or imagined, could be every bit as dangerous to a
> > child in school as a minority sexual preference.
>
> Doesn't even have to be that obvious. Just being the only kid in the
> school with immigrant parents is enough.
Or a weedy kid that's no good at sports. Or a poor kid that isn't dressed in
the best labels. Or a kid with retainers/braces.
Kids can be picked on for anything. Kids are cruel.
Steve Pritchard
> Taking my personal experience, of studies, and statistics on
> suicide it is not surprising that gay teens have a higher
> instance of contemplating, attempting and a successful
> suicide rate higher percentage wise than teens without the
> additional burden of sexuality conflict.
I've seen studies that show that teen males who play computer games and
roleplaying games have a higher percentage chance of committing suicide than
those that don't. Those figures, though they looked well presented and
researched, were hogwash. They were massively inaccurate and misleading.
It will come as no surprise to learn that they were produced by a group
aimed at banning computer games and roleplaying games.
You are looking for supportive evidence that shows that gay teens have it
harder than normal teens and are therefore more likely to commit suicide. If
you look, you'll find it. Doesn't mean that it's valid.
Steve Pritchard
news:95h6oj$oak$1...@cubacola.tninet.se...
> "The Last Real Marlboro Man" <wl...@home.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:jntm7t4di56tq5jua...@4ax.com...
>
> [ snip ]
>
> > >You would think in this age of increased awareness and
> > >tolerance that gay teen suicide would have gone down. It has
> > >not. It is still about three times higher than heterosexual
> > >teens.
> >
> > Cite, please.
>
> and find dozens of instances of studies about it.
>
> But, knowing your previously expressed views on this subject, I fear you
> wouldn't believe them anyway. I can point you to the NOVA report in
Norway,
> a Norwegian government report, that said that 25 percent of the people who
> identified themselves as gay had tried to committ or thought about
> committing suicide.
But does this report suggest that these 25% who identified themselves as gay
and tried to commit suicide did it *because* of the pressures they felt
imposed upon them by their sexuality. Gay people can commit suicide because
they are in debt, can't they? How does that hold up again those statistics?
> Would you ask battered women to cite reports showing the prevalence of
> violence against them before admitting that something ought to be done
about
> men beating their spouses, rather than look at the bruises and disregard
the
> story that they fell down the stairs at home and just happened to loose
> their teeth whilst falling on their bottoms?
Not the same thing at all, and it is disingenuous to suggest it is. If
someone is suicidal because they are battered and beaten then the cause of
their depression is pretty evident. Gay people that commit suicide because
they are gay are the only ones that can add to those statistics
legitimately.
Deck Deckert
> You are looking for supportive evidence that shows that
> gay teens have it harder than normal teens and are therefore
> more likely to commit suicide. If you look, you'll find it.
> Doesn't mean that it's valid.
Doesn't mean that it isn't, either. Common sense is commonly correct. i.e.
It would be rather astounding if the stress of being gay in a gay-hating
culture didn't have a long list of negative effects, including a higher
suicide rate.
Deck
Steve Pritchard
news:95m1bc$1rfq$1...@news.gate.net...
Common sense should also tell you that being gay isn't always the cause of
teen suicides too. You could be very happy with your sexuality, not find
yourself under any pressure or harassment, but kill yourself because you
couldn't face another day in a dead-end job.
I'm not saying that living in a gay-hating culture and being gay won't lead
to people killing themselves because they can't deal with it. I'm saying
that studies that promote this as producing much higher than average suicide
rates tend to be looking to prove that very point before they begin.
Eliska
wrote:
I wonder then if the suicide rate among black teens also higher.
Liska
Blanche Nonken
> "Deck Deckert" <de...@seminole.gate.net> wrote in message
> > Doesn't mean that it isn't, either. Common sense is commonly correct. i.e.
> > It would be rather astounding if the stress of being gay in a gay-hating
> > culture didn't have a long list of negative effects, including a higher
> > suicide rate.
>
> Common sense should also tell you that being gay isn't always the cause of
> teen suicides too. You could be very happy with your sexuality, not find
> yourself under any pressure or harassment, but kill yourself because you
> couldn't face another day in a dead-end job.
Mm. When I was frighteningly depressed, suicidal and peer-rejected, I
was, oh, 'bout 10, 11 years old. I didn't even *have* a sexuality at
that point.
Don May
Seems to me any time you post a viewpoint particularly one
that is loaded with a message abuse will follow.
Doing the old go to the dictionary game to try and establish
common agreement of what constitutes abuse this one seems to
sum it up for me: "To assail with contemptuous, coarse, or
insulting words." At times that seems to be the norm around
here with a number of posters. They get their kicks that
way. Why? It would take a large library to hold all the
books about that. A little common sense will usually
suffice.
If I wanted to lessen my potential for abuse I could go to
one of the many gay Usenet groups and post. Preaching to the
choir. Yep, its a good way to protect yourself from abuse,
create an illusion of security, and compensate for a lack of
honest self-esteem. A lot of them mental circle jerks.
As a child I grew up in a house sandwiched between the
Methodist church and the preachers house. Lord! The battles
that went on in the name of Jesus. Just about the time I
would get to become good playmates with the preacher's kids
the durn church elders would explode in disagreement on
whether the new preacher was throwing out enough hell fire
and brimstone, If not he was voted out along with my
playmates.
I must have had four sets of my playmates kicked out of town
that way. Course some of them I was not to disappointed to
see leave, not for religious reasons just that it was hard
to play with the self-righteous. Happy to say most the
preachers kids never listened to their daddy's ranting.
One of my daddy's money making schemes was to raise chickens
for eggs. He never completed the new chicken house which was
fine with me cause it became my new club house. I strung up
old sheets inside it to form rooms and proceeded to rent
them out to the preachers kids for five cents a month. A
going enterprise until the preacher got it through his head
I was running a bordello. I didn't have a clue what the word
meant or why he was upset. But he saved his daughters from
my bad influence and supposed sin and made me pay back the
five cents I had collected from them and wouldn't let them
play with me anymore. I had to give his son back his five
cents but could still play with him.
Can't say when the congregation decided a little less fire
and brimstone would make their sins more platable voted him
out of town. Didn't mind that much but I was most unhappy
about losing my playmates who were more than willing to come
up with five cents a month to have a little corner of the
world away from their daddy's filthy mind.
Got a little sidetracked there, where was I . . .Something
about preaching to the choir or accepting the fact if you
don't some folks won't like it and say nasty things about
you. Course in the case of that one preacher he had it
coming. . . stupid preacher was protecting his daughters,
little did he know it was his son I thought was cute.
Don
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The very purpose of existence is to reconcile the glowing opinion
we have of ourselves with the appalling things that other people
think about us.-- Quentin Crisp
Alex Jay Berman
<sire...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>"Don May" <donb...@home.com> wrote in message
>news:g34aat42kkkre7mvb...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:21:54 -0600, "Geno"
>> <sire...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Deck Deckert" <de...@dakota.gate.net> wrote in message
>> >news:95h4ai$1h4i$2...@news.gate.net...
>> >> Wayne Lutz wrote:
>> >> > Don has always been treated with kid gloves around here
>> >>
>> >> Hardly. You and Gene call him a 'victim', for example, and put him down
>> >> because of who he is, who God made him.
>> >>
>> >> You and Gene are slammed for your posts, for your expressed opinions,
>not
>> >> for who you are. Nobody derides you because you are white heterosexual
>> >> males.
>> >>
>> >> Deck
>> >
>> >Being a white, heterosexual male is perfectly normal. Don always decries
>> >his bad treatment in life--treatment which he implies is abnormal. Of
>> >course! The abnormal are always treated abnormally in general society.
>It
>> >is only in small pockets of society that adoration of selected
>abnormalities
>> >exists, not in the general society. Mw is one of those pockets. You
>people
>> >are sick.
>> >
>> >--Geno<normal in every way>Royer
>> >
>> Are you saying your posts are a figment of our imagination?
>>
>> Don't give me that normal in every way . . . I saw the
>> photos. PU-leese get a new hair color before you go talking
>> about abnormal folks. If it is your real hair and your real
>> color I apologize and my condolences mother nature was so
>> cruel.
>>
>> I gave a fellow here some advice on writing, told him to
>> write about what he knew best . . . won't find me making up
>> lines about what it feels like to have fingers running
>> through my hair.
>>
>> Don (need to shave the sides of my head this morning)
>>
>
>
>LOL! It's my hair, and I wish it were a better color. But it's *normal* for
>a man my age to have mousy gray--just like it's normal for a man your age to
>be bald as a baby's butt. I thought about shaving my head like the Net Ghod
>did a few years ago. But then I figured, heck if I've got it why not flaunt
>it. I've got hair in places some men don't even have places.
You have man-breast moles, Geno?
Alex Jay Berman
Alex Jay Berman
wrote:
And note that it isn't just New Jersey.
"Profiling" as a practice has gone on in state police departments ( I
qualify this because I've mostly heard about state and county police
doing this; I really don't know about metro police either way) for
decades.
As one citation just off the top of my head, I read about it in Ann
Rule's YOU BELONG TO ME and Other True Crimes, in the story of a
Florida State Trooper turned rapist-murderer in the Eighties.
It should be noted, however, that though the practice exists, it is
not always the rule, and that there are thousands of good cops who see
only people, not colors. Dwell on the bad, yes; drum the offenders out
of public service--but don't overlook the good.
Alex Jay Berman
Alan Hope
who knows what all, but I do remember this:
I don't know about you, but when I was a teenager, everything resolved
to sex -- money, parents, spots, fashion, music, school. Sex, all of
it. Man, I was a testicle on legs. I was a libidiot.
Fortunately tits, things are a lot hot slit better now thrusting
love-muscle.
--
AH! BABY!
Alan Hope
who knows what all, but I do remember this:
>"Deck Deckert" <de...@seminole.gate.net> wrote in message
>news:95m1bc$1rfq$1...@news.gate.net...
>> Steve Pritchard wrote:
>> > You are looking for supportive evidence that shows that
>> > gay teens have it harder than normal teens and are therefore
>> > more likely to commit suicide. If you look, you'll find it.
>> > Doesn't mean that it's valid.
>> Doesn't mean that it isn't, either. Common sense is commonly correct. i.e.
>> It would be rather astounding if the stress of being gay in a gay-hating
>> culture didn't have a long list of negative effects, including a higher
>> suicide rate.
>Common sense should also tell you that being gay isn't always the cause of
>teen suicides too. You could be very happy with your sexuality, not find
>yourself under any pressure or harassment, but kill yourself because you
>couldn't face another day in a dead-end job.
It doesn't have to be the primary cause. There might well be more
pressing reasons, but the cultural climate Deck mentions does nothing
to provide a counter-balance.
>I'm not saying that living in a gay-hating culture and being gay won't lead
>to people killing themselves because they can't deal with it. I'm saying
>that studies that promote this as producing much higher than average suicide
>rates tend to be looking to prove that very point before they begin.
That's a big assumption.
--
AH
Alan Hope
what all, but I do remember this:
>On 5 Feb 2001 11:04:12 GMT, Deck Deckert <de...@seminole.gate.net>
>wrote:
>>Steve Pritchard wrote:
>>> You are looking for supportive evidence that shows that
>>> gay teens have it harder than normal teens and are therefore
>>> more likely to commit suicide. If you look, you'll find it.
>>> Doesn't mean that it's valid.
>>Doesn't mean that it isn't, either. Common sense is commonly correct. i.e.
>>It would be rather astounding if the stress of being gay in a gay-hating
>>culture didn't have a long list of negative effects, including a higher
>>suicide rate.
>I wonder then if the suicide rate among black teens also higher.
That's not a very good analogy. Black teens at least have the support
of their family, some of whom will presumably also be black. One might
suppose they live in a neighbourhood or social circle comprising many
black people. Positive reinforcement of their blackness will be all
around them. If it isn't in real life, look no further than popular
culture, where black heroes abound, whether in sports, movies, music,
even writing. Make a list of all the popular gay cultural figures. I
can think of Harvey Fierstein, offhand, and er, that's it. He's not
exactly on a par with Lennox Lewis, Will Smith or Oprah, is he?
The expression of flat-out hatred of black people has been toned down
in recent years, by and large. It's still hardly frowned upon in many
circles to execrate gays.
Above all, it's not against the law to be black and do the things
black youths do. No ban on rap music, or stupid baggy trousers that
hang off one's arse. On the contrary, being actively black is, in some
youth circles, such a positively-viewed phenomenon that even white
youths feel driven to attempt to "pass".
Most people can't figure out why gays are so centred on their
sexuality, apparently to the exclusion of every other aspect of their
personality. Those people, needless to say, haven't had to come to
terms with what is effectively a proscribed sexual orientation, which
would, I imagine, tend to concentrate the mind. The same people think
nothing of it when Barry Levinson makes a film like Diner, when
Madonna hypes her sex to Kingdom come, or when a long-running show
like Friends tops the ratings year after year after year. Don't any of
those people have other things to think about than who puts what
where?
--
AH
Steve Pritchard
news:jvcu7tc7b0pkono5a...@4ax.com...
Quite.
I'm sure we were all like that. I can't imagine wanting to kill myself
because of sexual anxiety, however. The chance of missing out on sex would
have stopped me doing that in the very least. However, I guess I was lucky
enough not to have slipped into that depressive mind set so will never
understand it.
And for that I'm grateful.
Steve Pritchard
> In misc.writing, Steve Pritchard posted and went yadda yadda I mean
> who knows what all, but I do remember this:
>
> >"Deck Deckert" <de...@seminole.gate.net> wrote in message
> >news:95m1bc$1rfq$1...@news.gate.net...
> >> Steve Pritchard wrote:
> >> > You are looking for supportive evidence that shows that
> >> > gay teens have it harder than normal teens and are therefore
> >> > more likely to commit suicide. If you look, you'll find it.
> >> > Doesn't mean that it's valid.
>
> >> Doesn't mean that it isn't, either. Common sense is commonly correct.
i.e.
> >> It would be rather astounding if the stress of being gay in a
gay-hating
> >> culture didn't have a long list of negative effects, including a higher
> >> suicide rate.
>
> >Common sense should also tell you that being gay isn't always the cause
of
> >teen suicides too. You could be very happy with your sexuality, not find
> >yourself under any pressure or harassment, but kill yourself because you
> >couldn't face another day in a dead-end job.
>
> It doesn't have to be the primary cause. There might well be more
> pressing reasons, but the cultural climate Deck mentions does nothing
> to provide a counter-balance.
I'm in no way suggesting that teens won't commit suicide because of their
sexual orientation and the pressure it brings. It would be foolish to say it
doesn't happen. All I'm saying is that statistics that claim "teen gay
suicides" apparently automatically assume that the *reason* for the suicide
is the pressure of homosexuality.
Why?
> >I'm not saying that living in a gay-hating culture and being gay won't
lead
> >to people killing themselves because they can't deal with it. I'm saying
> >that studies that promote this as producing much higher than average
suicide
> >rates tend to be looking to prove that very point before they begin.
>
> That's a big assumption.
Is it? If you are looking to prove a theory you search for supportive
evidence. These are not scientists trying to test out theoretics, but social
workers and psychologists that are likely to be choosing statistics that
prove their theories hold true.
--
Steve Pritchard
Rage Games (Sheffield)
>
> --
> AH
Don May
Because they do not always assume that. Because if you had
grown up gay you would not need to ask why. Because this is
like a bunch of white adults telling a bunch of black kids
what it is like to be black. Because when they answer they
are told they don't have the qualifications to know or that
they are too biased to tell the truth. Because there is much
more to homosexuality than just sexual lust. Because I am
becoming weary of having well meaning white heterosexuals
defining me and if I disagree they dismiss me as biased,
playing victim, pushing a gay agenda, and just out to prove
my so called definition of being gay.
Because whatever the figures for gay teens suicide being
above that of straight teens what really matters is they are
all suicides and the issue is not what was the exact straw
that broke the backs of gay teens the result is the same . .
. death.
All y'all have fun debating the exact cause, cause you can't
know the exact figures and the exact cause because the proof
is dead.
It seems things have drifted into the old biased studies
game, who is right and who is wrong. My question is:
Why?
I was asked by the rest of my family to be the one to tell
my mama that she only had about a week to live. Moments
after I had sat beside her on her hospital bedside and told
her the preacher of her church came in the room with his
best preacher smile pasted all over his face. "Mrs. May, you
will be back in church in no time. We are all praying for
you."
I looked at my mom and she at me, we both said nothing.
After he left she said "I suppose he means well."
And I know you do.
Don
Dr Zen
na...@gekkografx.com (gekko) wrote:
> Setting fingers to keyboard Steve Pritchard
<S_Pri...@shef.rage.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >I can't imagine wanting to kill myself
> >because of sexual anxiety, however. The chance of missing out on sex
would
> >have stopped me doing that in the very least. However, I guess I was
lucky
> >enough not to have slipped into that depressive mind set so will
never
> >understand it.
> >
> >And for that I'm grateful.
>
Why not?
It's hard enough getting a root when you're straight. The torment is
incredible. It's got to be harder for a gay teenager. The aloneness
that you go on to talk about later must have its affect in this area
just the same as any other.
> Chemical and hormonal imbalances, electrical imbalances, the
> *knowledge* (not feeling, but *knowledge*, to those who feel
> this way) that they are too much bother, they are truly alone,
> death/nothingness has to hurt less than life, life is a pit
> of blackness, there is no light, no help, and those assholes
> will be sorry when I'm gone ... that knowledge is closer to
> the root cause of it.
I don't think it's so easily analysed. A mate of mine had a pop at it
because his girlfriend dumped him (he survived, just); a workmate's kid
topped himself because he just couldn't be bothered any more. They both
had plenty of "help", plenty "to live for", and still they wanted to
die.
I'd be interested to know what an "electrical imbalance" is, BTW. It's
always been my understanding that the brain is very finely electrically
balanced and it would be impossible to survive were it not.
> Yes, living life knowing you're likely
> to get beat up every single day
Get off of it. I've lived in some rancid, homophobic places, but even
in them gays are not "likely" to be beaten up every single day.
> or that you'll be a major
> disappointment to those who matter most to you
You ever met my dad?
> or that the
> one you truly love (think about teenagers) will reject you
> as a freak ...
But teenagers have that all the time, nance. I never once pulled the
one I truly loved when I was a teenager (none of them, in fact). I
remember Sally (surname withheld just in case) whom I had watched,
thought about and loved from afar for a couple of months (a long time
when you're fifteen) laughed in my face when I asked her out. "You?"
she said. If I ever develop the talent in my writing to describe her
tone of voice, I'll be winning the Booker.
> if your mind is in that chemical/electrical/
> hormonal place that also causes that black pit of despair to
> well up, you're gonna off yourself.
Christ almighty, don't you know that teens like Limp Bizkit, wearing
black and wallowing? This kind of thinking is not constructive, nancy.
It's so glib.
> Hetero teens are
> surrounded by other hetero teens who think and feel pretty
> much the same way they do.
What!!? You must have been one of the "popular" girls. Most teens I
knew felt utterly alienated. They believed *nobody* could feel the way
they did. It's all fresh to a teenager. You forget that when you are in
your thirties (or forties/fifties, whatever - I'm giving you the
benefit of the doubt).
> Support groups are VERY important
> to people who suffer from various problems.
Yes, indeed. Never would deny it. Groups of likeminded people are A
Good Thing.
> Support groups work well for a lot of emotional and mental
> illnesses (not all, and not for all people having these
> problems, but for a large percentage of them).
Being gay is not an emotional or mental illness.
> There's
> a lot of success in various support programs, and a large
> portion of it comes from being with others who are "like you",
> who understand what you're going through, where you've been,
> where you'll be. They've been through it. They are more
> sympathetic than the most loving "normal" person.
Well, say you have cancer. You are obviously going to feel that someone
who doesn't have or has never had cancer is simply not going to
understand.
> Having a support group for gay teens makes sense and may well
> help them find enough inner strength to keep going, to
> correct whatever is inside of them that keeps them in that
> black pit of despair and helps them see light.
Nancy, no one, to my knowledge has said that support groups for gay
teens are a bad thing, only that misc.writing is not in fact a support
group for gay teens (at least, it is not advertised as such).
Would you also agree that there ought to be sexual education programmes
for gay teens? Perhaps with federal funding? So that they are not left
ignorant and grasping around.
> Being alone is never good. I imagine gay teens coming to
> grips with their difference from the norm feel more alone
> than others.
You know, here's a radical suggestion. But mull it over, see if you can
get your head round it. Let's make it the fucking norm. Let's make
being gay as normal as being a leg man, an arse man, a blondes are best
man. How 'bout it? How about I just say as far as I'm concerned Don May
is absolutely normal? There is nothing abnormal about him. You know,
the norm on Mars is to have green skin and bug eyes, so what the fuck?
I think you are good enough and smart enough to be able to think Don is
as normal as I am, because most guys round here are sexist, racist,
homophobic meatheads - and where does that leave me if there's some
sort of norm I'm supposed to be fitting?
Zen
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Dr Zen
Claiming to have privileged knowledge is a time-honoured but not very
respectable way of closing down discussion.
> Because this is
> like a bunch of white adults telling a bunch of black kids
> what it is like to be black.
Bullshit, and you know it. Without pushing an obvious point too hard, a
black person doesn't have to tell you they're black for you to know
they're black.
> Because when they answer they
> are told they don't have the qualifications to know or that
> they are too biased to tell the truth. Because there is much
> more to homosexuality than just sexual lust.
What though? Educate us, Don. Because if you are going to say "we're
more refined, we're gentler, we're better listeners and we love Judy
Garland" you can kiss my butt.
I will say categorically that there is intrinsically no more to
homosexuality than sexual preference. You think I'm wrong, you educate
me.
> Because I am
> becoming weary of having well meaning white heterosexuals
> defining me and if I disagree they dismiss me as biased,
> playing victim, pushing a gay agenda, and just out to prove
> my so called definition of being gay.
I've just defined you, sorry. I believe that humans are incredibly
diverse and that for every mincing queen who thinks Oscar is divine,
there's a straight-acting guy who thinks crochet is for girls. What
they have in common is they both like guys. There *is* a gay agenda -
I'd say the long and short of it is that gays somehow fit a cultural
group, that they are somehow homogenous, that they are in some way an
ethnos, and should be recognised for it, that they should at the same
time be allowed to take their place in the mainstream without hindrance
and be considered "special". Are you pushing it? Yes, I think you are.
You want special treatment because you fuck guys (a guy in your case,
I'm not casting aspersions on your fidelity), whereas I would never
dream of asking for it because my partner is blonde (and in just the
same way that my relationship with my wife cannot be summed up in her
hair colour, yours with your partner is not summed up by his sex).
> Because whatever the figures for gay teens suicide being
> above that of straight teens what really matters is they are
> all suicides and the issue is not what was the exact straw
> that broke the backs of gay teens the result is the same . .
> . death.
That doesn't answer the point. No one is disputing the sadness of a
teen suicide.
> All y'all have fun debating the exact cause, cause you can't
> know the exact figures and the exact cause because the proof
> is dead.
It was you who mentioned the gay aspect. You said your aim in posting
was to prevent gay teen suicides.
Still, I could care less. One teen more or fewer, what's it to me? This
universalisation of one's feelings is so ugly and pointless. Look after
your own salvation and leave the teen suicides sort their own out,
probably is best.
Dr Zen
Sho' they drug runners, bubba, they niggers.
Set your line for catfish, Geney boy, you're going to catch catfish.
Dr Zen
wf...@mindspring.com (Bill Funke) wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:35:40 -0000, "Steve Pritchard"
> <S_Pri...@shef.rage.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <...>
> >
> >No disrespect, Don, but I'd suggest that if you are looking in the
places
> >you are likely to be looking you'll find supportive evidence that
gay teen
> >suicide is exactly the hotbed issue you beleive it to be. Know that
when I
> >searched for drug-related teen suicides, I was able to find a
massive amount
> >of corroborative evidence that suggested drugs were the major cause
too.
> >Statistics can show whatever you want them to show, especially if
complied
> >by people who have cause to promote one set of numbers over another.
>
> effect is always tricky. In the case of drugs and kids, the drugs
> may be seen as symptomatic of deeper problems, which could be the root
> cause of suicidal tendencies. One could say that they possibly abuse
> drugs because they are suicidal, not the other way around.
>
> If the increase in suicide among homosexual teens is real, it would
> seem that that would be a root cause. they may have many other
> problems, too, but their sexual identification would be a cause, not a
> symptom. Not the only one, necesarily, but conflicts in a homophobic
> environment are unavoidable and could be a major contibutor.
> '
> '
1/ Maybe the kids are more willing to define themselves as homosexual.
The number of homosexual teen suicides could be the same but the
description has changed.
2/ If a teen has suicided, is it possible the family will say "he/she
was odd, perhaps they had 'abnormal' sexual tendencies"? Can a teen
suicide become a gay teen post mortem?
Blanche Nonken
> > Yes, living life knowing you're likely
> > to get beat up every single day
>
> Get off of it. I've lived in some rancid, homophobic places, but even
> in them gays are not "likely" to be beaten up every single day.
I spent 5th through 7th grades like that.
Bill Funke
>In article <3a800fa8...@news.mindspring.com>,
> wf...@mindspring.com (Bill Funke) wrote:
<...>
>> Statistical analysis is fraught with danger, and associating cause and
>> effect is always tricky. In the case of drugs and kids, the drugs
>> may be seen as symptomatic of deeper problems, which could be the root
>> cause of suicidal tendencies. One could say that they possibly abuse
>> drugs because they are suicidal, not the other way around.
>>
>> If the increase in suicide among homosexual teens is real, it would
>> seem that that would be a root cause. they may have many other
>> problems, too, but their sexual identification would be a cause, not a
>> symptom. Not the only one, necesarily, but conflicts in a homophobic
>> environment are unavoidable and could be a major contibutor.
>> '
>> '
>
>1/ Maybe the kids are more willing to define themselves as homosexual.
>The number of homosexual teen suicides could be the same but the
>description has changed.
>2/ If a teen has suicided, is it possible the family will say "he/she
>was odd, perhaps they had 'abnormal' sexual tendencies"? Can a teen
>suicide become a gay teen post mortem?
As I said, statistical analyses of these things is tricky. If we keep
it up, another hundred or so factors could be identified.
Since it's been observed that "x" times as many allegedly homosexual
teens attempt suicide as the the universe of teens in general, it
would seem to be a good idea to see just why.
Don May
<dr_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <0hahat4l5l8iebcv4...@4ax.com>,
> Don May <donb...@home.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> Because when they answer they
>> are told they don't have the qualifications to know or that
>> they are too biased to tell the truth. Because there is much
>> more to homosexuality than just sexual lust.
>
>What though? Educate us, Don. Because if you are going to say "we're
>more refined, we're gentler, we're better listeners and we love Judy
>Garland" you can kiss my butt.
Don's Gay 101 - - questions by Dr. Zen
Q. Are gays more refined?
A. Ask Jeffery Dahmer (although his table manners may have
been impeccable)
B. Visit a San Francisco bath house.
Q. Are gays gentler?
A. Ask Alexander The Great
B. Ask J. Eager Hoover
Q. Are gays better listeners?
A. Only when they are listening to themselves.
B. Only when they are listening to themselves.
Q. Do all gays love Judy Garland
A. Personally can't stand whimpering, dunk, strung out,
falling down on stage, has been singers.
B. At least Barbara is sober. Still not my cup of tea.
Q. To a gay man is "you can kiss my butt" a put down.
A. All depends on the butt.
B. Stop teasing you silly flirt.
>
>I will say categorically that there is intrinsically no more to
>homosexuality than sexual preference. You think I'm wrong, you educate
>me.
As I do not know for a fact there is such a thing as a "gay
gene," not that a big a deal as far as I am care,
I agree with you. But . . . all you have to do is be in the
gym shower with a bunch of gay men to know they were not all
created equal.
The "more than sexual preference" was in context to a
tendency for people who do not approve of gays to see them
"only" in terms of sexual acts and somehow void of the same
in general range of emotions as heterosexuals. Excluding to
varying degrees feelings of sexual attraction toward women.
< rest snipped to be addressed in separate post>
Don
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I hasten to laugh at everything for fear of being
obliged to weep at it.--Pierre de Beaumarchais
gekko
7th and 8th for me. My step-sister's thuggish friends. Earned
the nickname "tiger" back then, after I'd finally had enough.
--
tiger
I believe you should live each day as if it is your last, which is why
I don't have any clean laundry because, come on, who wants to wash
clothes on the last day of their life? -- 15 year old, attempting to
imitate Jack Handey
Blanche Nonken
> Setting fingers to keyboard Blanche Nonken <mombl...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >Dr Zen <dr_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> >> > Yes, living life knowing you're likely
> >> > to get beat up every single day
> >>
> >> Get off of it. I've lived in some rancid, homophobic places, but even
> >> in them gays are not "likely" to be beaten up every single day.
> >
> >I spent 5th through 7th grades like that.
>
> 7th and 8th for me. My step-sister's thuggish friends. Earned
> the nickname "tiger" back then, after I'd finally had enough.
For me it was kids with last names that ended up in major news items. I
remember when a couple of 'em had the bright idea of exposing themselves
to me. That wasn't scary, just confusing. Like, 8th grade baby penises
are supposed to be a threat? I never did figure out that approach. I
do remember 4 years later, when one of the two was busted for attempted
rape. Damn, that was funny.
Marcus Winberg
"Steve Pritchard" <S_Pri...@shef.rage.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:95m0u2$h9j7g$1...@ID-56527.news.dfncis.de...
> But does this report suggest that these 25% who identified themselves as
gay
> and tried to commit suicide did it *because* of the pressures they felt
> imposed upon them by their sexuality. Gay people can commit suicide
because
> they are in debt, can't they? How does that hold up again those
statistics?
The answer to your first question is "Yes". So, even in a very tolerant
society like Norway, where the deputy leader of the conservative party is a
homosexual, the pressures of society against homosexuality is enough to
drive many to suicide.
> Not the same thing at all, and it is disingenuous to suggest it is. If
> someone is suicidal because they are battered and beaten then the cause of
> their depression is pretty evident. Gay people that commit suicide because
> they are gay are the only ones that can add to those statistics
> legitimately.
But I think it is. And you will too, if you think about it. It is not like
being bullied for having glasses, or too big teeth, or too outstanding ears.
Those, even in the eyes of the bully, are natural phenomena that the one
that is being bullied can't do anything about. Sexuality, however, is
considered something that one can do something about. It is, the prevalent
notion says, something you choose. So, homosexuality becomes not a state of
being, but a perversion. So, in many people's eyes the battered women can
choose to leave the abusing husband, and the homosexual can choose to become
heterosexual. That's how it becomes the same thing.
That you can choose is a false notion of course. I certainly didn't choose
to be gay, and you didn't choose to be heterosexual (Which I presume you
are).
Cheers,
Marcus
Marcus Winberg
"Don May" <donb...@home.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:lfteat07jk14pd0u9...@4ax.com...
> If I wanted to lessen my potential for abuse I could go to
> one of the many gay Usenet groups and post. Preaching to the
> choir. Yep, its a good way to protect yourself from abuse,
> create an illusion of security, and compensate for a lack of
> honest self-esteem. A lot of them mental circle jerks.
Unfortunately, I've found, the gay news groups have become the main "troth"
for the exposure of the anti-gay viewpoints. Meaning that you can only
participate there for so long until you need to leave to take a breath of
fresh air, and perhaps change the filters on the gas masks. :)
Cheers,
Marcus
Marcus Winberg
> Or a weedy kid that's no good at sports. Or a poor kid that isn't dressed
in
> the best labels. Or a kid with retainers/braces.
> Kids can be picked on for anything. Kids are cruel.
Yes, kids are picked on for a number of things. Kids are cruel. But enter
homosexuality into the picture, and it becomes a whole new ballgame. The gay
boy or girl goes to great lengths to hide this, with the psychological
pressures that brings on.
You're reared from day one of life to fill a particular role, that of the
heterosexual. When you don't fit into that role, then you don't think that
the rest of society is wrong, but that you are wrong. Way wrong, too.
Hopefully, people get over the teen years and discover their own worth, and
then they can realize that the rest of the world is indeed wrong about this
issue. Not everyone does get over the teen years.
Cheers,
Marcus
KMadeleine
<l3akat0hajuoblt5k...@4ax.com>:
>Q. Do all gays love Judy Garland
>
>A. Personally can't stand whimpering, dunk, strung out,
>falling down on stage, has been singers.
>B. At least Barbara is sober. Still not my cup of tea.
they're gonna take away your membership card! it's barbra <g>
--
KMadeleine
Don May
barbra? didn't know they had a special one. More up-lift to
keep them from falling in your drink.
Thanks for the warning but it was too late They took my card
for not liking Judy Garland. It will take more than that to
clip the good fairies wings.
Marcus Winberg
"The Last Real Marlboro Man" <wl...@home.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:4gvo7torf982jctd0...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:02:04 +0100, "Marcus Winberg"
> <xhy...@nospam.tninet.se> wrote:
>
> >But would you believe it, or give it credit? It's easy to do a net search
> >and find dozens of instances of studies about it.
>
> That's one hell of a leap. Don is the one who said he has the
> statistics, so I asked him to name them.
Don's piece was an "op-ed" of sorts, of which we find myriads in here every
week. It was a thoughtful piece, not a scientific dissertation. Never burden
your prose with the unnecessary. Don has a long experience in working in the
gay scene out there in San Francisco. He has shown, told, and talked about
it many times before. So, he has some experience, just like you have
experience of writing which you and I and lots of other people handsomely
spread around when asked ( even when we're not asked, also).
Only here, do we need to load a piece that is clearly appealing to the
senses rather than the cold intellect with cites and statistics, which are
easily found with a few keywords in the search engine of your choice. Not
everything needs to be served on a plate, and if a topic is of interest the
reader can research it too.
Also, a standard tactic in this debate is to ask for a cite, and then turn
the discussion away from a valid, important point to question the validity
of the cite or the research.
Cheers,
Marcus
Marcus Winberg
"Towse" <se...@towse.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:3A7C759D...@towse.com...
> <http://www.pflag.org/schools/educators.htm>
>
> Whoops. PFLAG, a notoriously skewed source, eh?
Thanks! :)
It makes for depressive reading.
Cheers,
Marcus
Marcus Winberg
"Stan (the Man)" <sk...@optonline.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:3A7C252F...@optonline.net...
> > But would you believe it, or give it credit? It's easy to do a net
search
> > and find dozens of instances of studies about it.
> Then it should be easy to post a cite.
The problem with that is, if a cite is posted, then the discussion will turn
from speaking about the validity of the *point* to speaking about the
validity of the cite and its underlying research. Something which has
already happened in this thread.
> I'm curious as to what views that Wayne has previously expressed that
> would lead you to think he wouldn't believe the results of a valid
> study.
Ah, but the key is the term "valid". The devil is in the details. See above
for my reasoning on this.
Cheers,
Marcus
Stan (the Man)
Marcus Winberg wrote:
>
> "Stan (the Man)" <sk...@optonline.net> skrev i meddelandet
> news:3A7C252F...@optonline.net...
Marcus Winberg wrote:
> > > But would you believe it, or give it credit? It's easy to do a net
> search
> > > and find dozens of instances of studies about it.
> > Then it should be easy to post a cite.
>
> The problem with that is, if a cite is posted, then the discussion will turn
> from speaking about the validity of the *point* to speaking about the
> validity of the cite and its underlying research. Something which has
> already happened in this thread.
Surely you can't be suggesting that sources for claims are unfair
targets of skepticism in favor of keeping the discussion focussed where
you would prefer.
> > I'm curious as to what views that Wayne has previously expressed that
> > would lead you to think he wouldn't believe the results of a valid
> > study.
>
> Ah, but the key is the term "valid". The devil is in the details. See above
> for my reasoning on this.
Of course "valid" is a key term. Would you suggest anyone believe or
give credit to an invalid study?
If you post stats to support your position, you are obligated to post
the source of those stats. If your sources are invalid, you're entire
argument could be faulty.
Stan