Talent vs. Skill
Belle Harper
going on here, largely between Robert Mc. and himself. I've noticed
something interesting during the course of teaching English Lit. this year,
namely that a number of the great English poets were self-educated beyond
their formal schooling, reading the classics and then working at their
poetry skills until they refined them. Examples include Keats, Chaucer,
Pope.
Yesterday I taught about Tennyson, who was another poet who worked hard to
refine his skills. From early drafts of his poems, it's clear that he
probably wasn't born with what Auden called "the finest ear [...] of any
English poet." Rather, he developed it over time through practice and by
studying his predecessors.
Keats designed a 10-year plan for himself that involved reading all the
great writers and practicing his own work in preparation for writing
professionally. I asked my students what skill they'd like to master in ten
years. Now I'll ask you whether you think it takes as many as ten years to
master writing skills, and if you've undertaken any sort of self teaching by
reading the classics or engaging in other learning that you think will help
you as a writer (or, if you had such a plan, what was it, and how did it
work out for you?).
Belle
Hugh Watkins
"Belle Harper" <belle...@mmcable.com> wrote in message news:fJlu7.45050$1c1.8...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
> OK, I'm opening up a new thread on the talent vs. skill debate that's been
> going on here, largely between Robert Mc. and himself. I've noticed
> something interesting during the course of teaching English Lit. this year,
One learns by teaching
> namely that a number of the great English poets were self-educated beyond
> their formal schooling, reading the classics and then working at their
> poetry skills until they refined them. Examples include Keats, Chaucer,
> Pope.
>
> Yesterday I taught about Tennyson, who was another poet who worked hard to
> refine his skills. From early drafts of his poems, it's clear that he
> probably wasn't born with what Auden called "the finest ear [...] of any
> English poet." Rather, he developed it over time through practice and by
> studying his predecessors.
>
> Keats designed a 10-year plan for himself that involved reading all the
> great writers and practicing his own work in preparation for writing
> professionally. I asked my students what skill they'd like to master in ten
> years. Now I'll ask you whether you think it takes as many as ten years to
> master writing skills, and if you've undertaken any sort of self teaching by
> reading the classics or engaging in other learning that you think will help
> you as a writer (or, if you had such a plan, what was it, and how did it
> work out for you?).
as a musician it takes 10years to learn the instrument and ten more years to becomean experienced performer.
When aged 21 decided to become a professional musician I also planned to educate my artistic intelligence
Musicians have travel time and waiting time so I was able to starte reading philosophy and psychology (low numbers in the Dewey
Decimal system and took every chance to go to theatre and concerts - I had a source of free tickets forthe London theatres. Attended
art galleries.
Lisiened to as much music and poetry by living writers.
I broadened my studies to equip myself as a bassoonist, conductor and teacher which occupations ihavebeen paid for.
My writing started as freelance writing about music records and performance and sheet music.
I was never a careerist but more as sort of existentialist day by day experimenter. Got paid to practice too.
A love of novels led to a wish to write.
The first Mac SE was purchased for that purpose.
But I joined a BBS in order to learn about the internet
so that became a serious hobby.
Performing on a musical instrument is an athletic accompishment so.the way goes downhill after 45 to 55 years muscle tone can
nevercompete with a 21 year old.
So I read English literature at Copenhagen University and learnt some of the canon and of Cambridge and other schools of criticism.
I planned to write full time on my retirement
I had a visiting philospher from Oxford U in the taxi and had such fun chatting - so decided totake that subject at a professional
level.
Quite ridiculous . . .like being a taxi driver with a bad memory. . . mine is creative rather than academic - to synthesis rather
than rote. . . .and it is a course requirement to be trilingual in English Danish and German.. . . . you really need Latin and
ancient Greek too.
So that is where I am now - I write a few little pieces and read them at the writers groups nothing that I care to fine polish for
publication.
My viking studies . . I had an idea of entering a competition for historical novels at least one got read. . .so I have been to
many of the sites and museums around the North Sea.
I know of a film producer who has expressed interest in reading a script . . . . I said to one professor who was showing me some
archeology that if I succeed it will be a cult novel (comparable to the Hobit for example) she jumped ;-0)
Otherwise why bother . . there is also the pull of a family history ther is much knowledge that will die with me
So I am falling between stools I also have a flat in a serious state of chaos to get sorted. And a family tree to tidy up
Hugh W
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/w/a/t/Hugh-B-Watkins/index.html?Welcome=1002058443
ActiveVerb
Most successful writers are omnivorous readers. I probably read 70-100 books a
year, but it isn't with a goal of self-education. The education is a byproduct.
However, I don't know if you need to read "the classics." You can probably
learn as much reading Stephen King or John Grisham as you can reading Dickens.
ilan pillemer
Learn as much of what?
I know that the classic works of literature exist at much
rarefied level of reality than popular writings.
Crawling into the encircling words of Proust or being subjugated by
the might of Shakespeare is not comparable to the cheap thrills
of John Grisham or the fast scribblings of Stephen King.
Doggedly reading each syllable, teeth clenched, mind focused, pushing
through the Gibbon's work on the rise and fall of the Roman Empire
- or -
mind expanded,
heart double-beating,
... following David's erotic failures with Batsheba - so naked and
beautiful when showering, glistening with life - on the a rooftop
of the golden city of God.
... terrified by the kind of pain finally crystallised in
the screams of "Absalom! Absalom!"; collapsin g g iinnnnn
to ee cummings' I's that are some
where be
yond
------ engenders a far more telling
education
in the student
than Stephen's
evil cars and
clowns.
-----
love
ilAn
Belle Harper
news:m3eloki...@localhost.localdomain...
> -----
> love
> ilAn
Oh, how sweet!
Belle
Archer070
>their formal schooling, reading the classics and then working at their
>poetry skills until they refined them. Examples include Keats, Chaucer,
>Pope.
Geez, Belle, were there any classics around for Chaucer to read?
I once had a recording (should have stolen it) of GBS himself giving what
Americans would call a 'commencement address" to a bunch of "sixth-formers" (as
he referred to them). I listened to it so much I still recall most of it,
including his inflections.
"By the time I was eleven years old, I could read end to end all of the plays
of Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, and Shakespeare. But I could! not! read!
schoolbooks! Because they are written by people who don't know how to write."
Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little
>
> Now I'll ask you whether you think it takes as many as ten years to
> master writing skills, and if you've undertaken any sort of self teaching by
> reading the classics or engaging in other learning that you think will help
> you as a writer (or, if you had such a plan, what was it, and how did it
> work out for you?).
I have a plan. I haven't pursued it yet. I'm gonna.
Make a reading list of all works mentioned by my favorite author-heros.
For instance. I just read Neil Gaiman's latest novel. In its afterword,
and in his on-line journal, he mentions many writiings he's read that
led to this or that inspiration. I'm compiling a mental list of such
things, and mean to read them sometime.
Will that make me as good a writer? Maybe, maybe not. But we take
recommendations from many folks on what to read. In school the reading
list is in the curriculum, put together by professors or by
school-boards. Why not take a favorite author's reading recommendations
instead?
'Course this means I will have to read something by Chesterton. This
worries me. The one time I started, it was as thick and hard to get into
as some of the lengthier E. A. Poe bits. Maybe I'm just a wuss.
--
Niki
Steve Pritchard
"ilan pillemer" <il...@localhost.localdomain> wrote in message
news:m3eloki...@localhost.localdomain...
People who do that "poetic" spaced layout thingy frighten me.
ilan pillemer
> >a number of the great English poets were self-educated beyond
> >their formal schooling, reading the classics and then working at their
> >poetry skills until they refined them. Examples include Keats, Chaucer,
> >Pope.
>
> Geez, Belle, were there any classics around for Chaucer to read?
Yes.
-----
love
ilAn
ilan pillemer
> People who do that "poetic" spaced layout thingy frighten me.
What do you mean by '"poetic" spaced layout thingy'?
I am sure you know exactly what you are referring to when
you use the word 'thingy'. But; unfortunately - not being
particularly psychic or very good at guessing - I am a tiny
bit lost at what this 'thingy' is that frightens you so
much...
I hope its not too scary for you.
Are you coping?
-----
love
ilAn
Steve Pritchard
> "Steve Pritchard" <S_Pri...@shef.rage.co.uk> writes:
> > People who do that "poetic" spaced layout thingy frighten me.
>
> What do you mean by '"poetic" spaced layout thingy'?
>
> I am sure you know exactly what you are referring to when
> you use the word 'thingy'. But; unfortunately - not being
> particularly psychic or very good at guessing - I am a tiny
> bit lost at what this 'thingy' is that frightens you so
> much...
I'll try to be a little more specific.
When people believe that adding spaces and tabs to their text, leaving
artisitically composed whitespace, somehow empowers their writing with
more potency and meaning. When you see thing like;
The butterfly, upon gossamer pinions,
alighted the dew crowned, goddess breath of dawn
and
flew.
That sort of thing.
Drives me nuts.
> I hope its not too scary for you.
Almost.
> Are you coping?
The pills help. Thanks.
Belle Harper
news:20011003191958...@mb-da.aol.com...
> Geez, Belle, were there any classics around for Chaucer to read?
Well, duh. Try Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, and Shakespeare.
Archer:
> I once had a recording (should have stolen it) of GBS himself giving what
> Americans would call a 'commencement address" to a bunch of
"sixth-formers" (as
> he referred to them). I listened to it so much I still recall most of it,
> including his inflections.
>
> "By the time I was eleven years old, I could read end to end all of the
plays
> of Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, and Shakespeare. But I could! not!
read!
> schoolbooks! Because they are written by people who don't know how to
write."
See?
Belle
Belle Harper
news:3BBB93CC...@littlebull.com...
> I have a plan. I haven't pursued it yet. I'm gonna.
> Make a reading list of all works mentioned by my favorite author-heros.
> For instance. I just read Neil Gaiman's latest novel. In its afterword,
> and in his on-line journal, he mentions many writiings he's read that
> led to this or that inspiration. I'm compiling a mental list of such
> things, and mean to read them sometime.
Good idea. You must be smart. My mental list would end after about three
entries, then fade to black.
I keep a journal and keep my "must reads" at the end of it.
Niki:
> Will that make me as good a writer? Maybe, maybe not. But we take
> recommendations from many folks on what to read. In school the reading
> list is in the curriculum, put together by professors or by
> school-boards. Why not take a favorite author's reading recommendations
> instead?
Right. I think this goes for music, too. Much of the best music I have I've
bought as a result of other people's recommendations.
Niki:
> 'Course this means I will have to read something by Chesterton. This
> worries me. The one time I started, it was as thick and hard to get into
> as some of the lengthier E. A. Poe bits. Maybe I'm just a wuss.
Now, see, I like Poe. But I've managed to avoid Chesterton so far. Maybe you
can let me know how Chesterton is coming along and I can point out the
benefits of Poe when we both get around to it.
Belle
Belle Harper
news:9ph4km$irsnj$1...@ID-56527.news.dfncis.de...
> People who do that "poetic" spaced layout thingy frighten me.
They frighten me, too
down to the very ends of my
follicles
dead though they may be,
they express the depth of
my terror
never claiming to be a poet,
I will end this now
and there go the
curlews to end
this
bit.
Belle
Dick Harper
> For instance. I just read Neil Gaiman's latest novel. In its afterword,
> and in his on-line journal, he mentions many writiings he's read that
> led to this or that inspiration. I'm compiling a mental list of such
> things, and mean to read them sometime.
>
> Will that make me as good a writer? Maybe, maybe not. But we take
> recommendations from many folks on what to read. In school the reading
> list is in the curriculum, put together by professors or by
> school-boards. Why not take a favorite author's reading recommendations
> instead?
Because your voice is not Neil Gaiman's and Gaiman's favorite
authors may not do for you what they did for Gaiman. Even
Gaiman's favorite authors may not do it for Gaiman every time.
We bring a lot of baggage to the reading room and it colors
everything we read. Some days, that passage in Merchant of Venice
may sing; others it's just a slog through iambic pentameter.
--Dick
Archer070
>
>Belle
>
Well, Uh, OK. 'cept for Shakespeare.
Lorrill Buyens
<il...@localhost.localdomain> ordered a misc.writing pizza with extra
cheese, but got this instead:
>activ...@aol.com (ActiveVerb) writes:
>
>> <<if you've undertaken any sort of self teaching by reading the classics>>
>>
>> Most successful writers are omnivorous readers. I probably read 70-100 books a
>> year, but it isn't with a goal of self-education. The education is a byproduct.
>> However, I don't know if you need to read "the classics." You can probably
>> learn as much reading Stephen King or John Grisham as you can reading Dickens.
>
>Learn as much of what?
How to write well.
>I know that the classic works of literature exist at much
>rarefied level of reality than popular writings.
Bullshit. Shakespeare, Dickens, etc. wrote for the masses. The only
reason their *popular* works have survived this long is because they
were among the best *popular* fiction written during their respective
eras. For every Jane Austen who became widely-read, there was a
Hall Caine who didn't.
>Crawling into the encircling words of Proust or being subjugated by
>the might of Shakespeare is not comparable to the cheap thrills
>of John Grisham or the fast scribblings of Stephen King.
For you, maybe, bubbie. For me, I'm jus' as happy curling up with
_The Tommyknockers_ or _Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone_
as I am snuggling down with _All Quiet on the Western Front_ or
_The Picture of Dorian Gray_.
>Doggedly reading each syllable, teeth clenched, mind focused, pushing
>through the Gibbon's work on the rise and fall of the Roman Empire
> - or -
>mind expanded,
>heart double-beating,
>
>... following David's erotic failures with Batsheba - so naked and
>beautiful when showering, glistening with life - on the a rooftop
>of the golden city of God.
>
>... terrified by the kind of pain finally crystallised in
>the screams of "Absalom! Absalom!"; collapsin g g iinnnnn
>to ee cummings' I's that are some
> where be
> yond
>
>------ engenders a far more telling
>education
>in the student
>than Stephen's
>
>evil cars and
>
>clowns.
If your goal is to learn to write within a genre you like, then it
makes sense to read things within that genre which you enjoy.
Forcing yourself to read _The Grapes of Wrath_ when ya
wanna write horror novels would be jus' as silly as slogging
through _The Shining_ when ya wanna write contemporary
realism. An' if you're reading for fun, then it doesn't matter
*what* ya choose.
Unless you're a pretentious git, of course.
--
Lorrill Buyens
"A load of steaming horse shit could indeed keep a human afloat, for
a tall enough and broad enough load of steaming horse shit."
- Timothy McDaniel, defining waste-product dynamics in AFU
Support the Jayne Hitchcock HELP Fund
http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/6172/helpjane.htm
Davida Chazan
during the misc.writing Community News Flash ilan pillemer
<il...@localhost.localdomain> reported:
>"Steve Pritchard" <S_Pri...@shef.rage.co.uk> writes:
>
>
>> People who do that "poetic" spaced layout thingy frighten me.
>
>What do you mean by '"poetic" spaced layout thingy'?
I think Steve is referring to that e.e.cummings type of poetry where they put
the words all over the page for effect, 'spaced layout thingy'. Unless he made
a typo, and meant to say 'spaced out thingy', which would be totally in
character for Steve (even though he knows I'm only really spaced out at about
3am after having helped finish off several bottles of wine and mead).
>I am sure you know exactly what you are referring to when
>you use the word 'thingy'. But; unfortunately - not being
>particularly psychic or very good at guessing - I am a tiny
>bit lost at what this 'thingy' is that frightens you so
>much...
>I hope its not too scary for you.
There is little about poetry that doesn't frighten our Steve. But we still love
him, in spite of it all. This is because he is a big-powered Xbox game writer
and he has pictures of almost all of us, and we could end up plastered across
his next creation.
>ilAn
Your name is Ilan? Could it be that your real or at least your original
"localhost.localdomain" has an "il" ending?
(When a group of men named Ilan get together, we call them "forrest".)
The Chocolate Lady (Davida Chazan)
< davida @ jdc . org . il >
~*~*~*~*~*~
"Violence gnaws away at the very basis of Democracy...
peace truly doesn't only exist in prayers."
- Yitzhak Rabin z"l from his last speach just prior to his murder on November 5, 1995
~*~*~*~*~*~
Visit "Like Chocolate for Poetry"
http://pub58.ezboard.com/bdrchazan
~*~*~*~*~*~
Support the Jayne Hitchcock HELP Fund:
www.purpleducks.com/booksale/
Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little
>
> There is little about poetry that doesn't frighten our Steve. But we still love
> him, in spite of it all. This is because he is a big-powered Xbox game writer
> and he has pictures of almost all of us, and we could end up plastered across
> his next creation.
Just what we all need. Cameos as ... how was it someone put it? ... the
next batch of Doom.wads.
--
N
Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little
>
> For you, maybe, bubbie. For me, I'm jus' as happy curling up with
> _The Tommyknockers_ or _Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone_
> as I am snuggling down with _All Quiet on the Western Front_ or
> _The Picture of Dorian Gray_.
Given that a classic can only be defined fifty to a hundred or two years
after its publication, only time will tell whether Harry Potter does not
indeed become as much of a classic characters, say, Dorothy Gale or Lucy
Pevensie. After a century has passed, who's to say Rowlings won't still
be in print alongside Lewis and Carroll? Who's to say her popularity
won't have outlasted theirs?
(Wow, those two names really don't go together well. Yes, I intended to
mention two, not one, classic authors...)
By all means, one who wants to write in a certain genre should simply
immerse him/herself in that genre, and should seek out the classic AND
the popular AND the hopelessly obscure. 'S long as it's all stuff one
can learn from -- or learn against -- then the more the better.
--
Niki
Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little
>
> Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little <ro...@littlebull.com> wrote in message
> news:3BBB93CC...@littlebull.com...
> > things, and mean to read them sometime.
>
> Good idea. You must be smart. My mental list would end after about three
> entries, then fade to black.
> I keep a journal and keep my "must reads" at the end of it.
See, this is why I haven't followed through on this plan yet. After
Chesterton, I tend to forget who else Gaiman's lauded. But at least I
know where to find the list - go to the back of his latest novel, or to
the forward blurbs for each item in ANGELS AND VISITATIONS.
Actually, no, I think the reason I haven't followed through yet is
there's so much Tepper and McKinley and Gaiman and Pratchett and other
popular sci-fi/fantasy authors on my bookshelves that rereading is often
more attractive than going out and getting more books. At 10:30 at
night, the rereading books are already *there*. No need to leave the
house and spend money, see?
> Now, see, I like Poe. But I've managed to avoid Chesterton so far. Maybe you
> can let me know how Chesterton is coming along and I can point out the
> benefits of Poe when we both get around to it.
Sounds like a plan. Mind you, SOME Poe I have had an easy time of. I
loved "Hop-Frog" and "The Gold Bug". However, I keep trying to start
"MS. Found in a Bottle" or "Metzengerstein" (hey, it's got a horse in
it!) and after the first page I nod off. So dense with extraneous words!
Or at least I, a rankly unscholared reader who doesn't know better, find
them extraneous.
--
Niki
>
> Belle
Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little
>
> > Why not take a favorite author's reading recommendations
> > instead?
>
> Because your voice is not Neil Gaiman's and Gaiman's favorite
> authors may not do for you what they did for Gaiman. Even
> Gaiman's favorite authors may not do it for Gaiman every time.
This is true, but if I follow that logic to the extreme I'll never get
outside my self-created box. I'll stick to my current favorites, and
never expand my horizon.
Seems to me that if one admires someone's work, than that someone's
recommendations hold at least more weight than the demands of a school
teacher we barely tolerate.
Plus there's the idea of analyzing one's heros. If it's valid to closely
examine a favorite author's writing for what makes it work so well,
surely it's just as valid to make a reading list out of the things that
THEY thought worked so well?
Eh, it's my plan. You don't have to follow it. Looks like *I* don't even
have to follow it, at the rate I'm going. :-)
> We bring a lot of baggage to the reading room and it colors
> everything we read. Some days, that passage in Merchant of Venice
> may sing; others it's just a slog through iambic pentameter.
Which is why this whole enterprise started with, "What authors do *I*
like?" It's not like I picked Neil Gaiman at random. Pretty much every
day I pick his stuff up, it sings. For me.
I'm just looking for ways to push myself out of the familiar rut I have
a tendency to get into. I trust the authors I enjoy, the authors whose
work "sings" to me more often than not, to push me out in good
directions.
--
Niki
Terje Johansen
"Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little" <0n53nc...@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:3BC275E0...@sneakemail.com...
Oh, but that would be terrific! Hey, Steve!? I want to be a Doom monster!
Spike me up, baby! Or put me in a mailman uniform and hand me a couple of
Uzi's!
- Terje
Blanche Nonken
Hey, my voice is already in the "Radio Sounds" pack for Weapons Factory.
(Jeff: "It's downloadable if anyone wants to hear it.") Was great fun
trying to sound frantic. <grin>
Steve Pritchard
news:WFww7.13046$tu6.3...@news1.oke.nextra.no...
Okay, embarrassing confessions time.
At the end of August, one of my artists was making a second pass at the
crowd graphics for our game. He lamented the fact that he didn't have
enough close up, head and shoulders reference material to work with. I
said, "Here's a few web sites with head and shoulders shots on them, use
these as reference."
One of them was the many pictures of folks I have on my old MW site.
However, it was the other sites that eventually caused the greater
embarrassment. One of these was www.fbi.gov where there are a lot of
mugshots to play with.
It wasn't until shortly after September 11th that it struck me what my
problem was. Osama Bin Laden was, in late August 2001, number 2 on the FBI
Most Wanted Top Ten.
There, in the front row of the crowd on my "Thunderbay Rumbledome" game
level, was a suspicious looking Arab gentleman. Yep, good 'ol Craig, my
artist, had slipped Osama into the crowd. Granted, he had no idea how well
known his face was about to become but, even after the disaster, it never
stuck him that this was the same person.
Oh dear.
Good job I got time to change it, eh?
Belle Harper
> It wasn't until shortly after September 11th that it struck me what my
> problem was. Osama Bin Laden was, in late August 2001, number 2 on the FBI
> Most Wanted Top Ten.
>
> There, in the front row of the crowd on my "Thunderbay Rumbledome" game
> level, was a suspicious looking Arab gentleman. Yep, good 'ol Craig, my
> artist, had slipped Osama into the crowd. Granted, he had no idea how well
> known his face was about to become but, even after the disaster, it never
> stuck him that this was the same person.
>
> Oh dear.
>
> Good job I got time to change it, eh?
Why change it? You'd think it'd increase sales rather than hurt them.
Belle
Steve Pritchard
> Steve Pritchard <S_Pri...@shef.rage.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:9pv1ng$klnib$1...@ID-56527.news.dfncis.de...
>
> Why change it? You'd think it'd increase sales rather than hurt them.
If you were allowed to drive out into the crowd and run him over, I'm sure
it'd be a winner.
Ilan Pillemer
> On 03 Oct 2001 21:07:32 +0200, ilan pillemer
> <il...@localhost.localdomain> ordered a misc.writing pizza with extra
> cheese, but got this instead:
> >Learn as much of what?
>
> How to write well.
Oh. I thought you were talking about
an education.
>
> >I know that the classic works of literature exist at much
> >rarefied level of reality than popular writings.
>
> Bullshit. Shakespeare, Dickens, etc. wrote for the masses. The only
> reason their *popular* works have survived this long is because they
> were among the best *popular* fiction written during their respective
> eras. For every Jane Austen who became widely-read, there was a
> Hall Caine who didn't.
If you are really trying to compare the writing
of Shakespeare with the likes of Sydney Sheldon -
then I would not ask your advice on what constitutes
quality writing.
>
> >Crawling into the encircling words of Proust or being subjugated by
> >the might of Shakespeare is not comparable to the cheap thrills
> >of John Grisham or the fast scribblings of Stephen King.
>
> For you, maybe, bubbie. For me, I'm jus' as happy curling up with
> _The Tommyknockers_ or _Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone_
> as I am snuggling down with _All Quiet on the Western Front_ or
> _The Picture of Dorian Gray_.
But that's alright, some writing was never intended
for the vulgar.
Its OK.
I don't mind.
>
> >Doggedly reading each syllable, teeth clenched, mind focused, pushing
> >through the Gibbon's work on the rise and fall of the Roman Empire
> > - or -
> >mind expanded,
> >heart double-beating,
> >
> >... following David's erotic failures with Batsheba - so naked and
> >beautiful when showering, glistening with life - on the a rooftop
> >of the golden city of God.
> >
> >... terrified by the kind of pain finally crystallised in
> >the screams of "Absalom! Absalom!"; collapsin g g iinnnnn
> >to ee cummings' I's that are some
> > where be
> > yond
> >
> >------ engenders a far more telling
> >education
> >in the student
> >than Stephen's
> >
> >evil cars and
> >
> >clowns.
>
> If your goal is to learn to write within a genre you like, then it
> makes sense to read things within that genre which you enjoy.
And if your goal is to become a more educated and
aware human being....
> Forcing yourself to read _The Grapes of Wrath_
I couldn't put _The Grapes of Wrath_ down, after
I started reading it, I couldn't stop until I read
the last line. And the I was depressed that the
book was finished.
> when ya
> wanna write horror novels would be jus' as silly as slogging
> through _The Shining_ when ya wanna write contemporary
> realism. An' if you're reading for fun, then it doesn't matter
> *what* ya choose.
And if you're reading to become more educated
and conscious?
I recommend _How to Read and Why_ by Harold Bloom.
>
> Unless you're a pretentious git, of course.
Nonsense, silly.
There is nothing pretentious about reading
good literature.
> --
> Lorrill Buyens
-----
love
ilAn
Terje Johansen
"Blanche Nonken" <bla...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:j4t5st05f74nunfog...@4ax.com...
Wow. Ok, now I have a new goal for my life - getting to be IN a game.
- terje
Steve Pritchard
> Wow. Ok, now I have a new goal for my life - getting to be IN a game.
You play Quake or something like that?
If so, what name do you use?
Terje Johansen
Heh, sorry - I'm not really into playing online games. Occasinally I enter a
mud, raise a few levels, then get something else to do for a few weeks and
forget all about that mud and account.
- Terje
Steve Pritchard
Ah, a shame. I'm just putting AI opponent names into the game this week,
so I'm using Quake nicknames of people I know.
Terje Johansen
Arrrgh. Oh well, one of my favorite mud names were Mauser. You realise I may
have to take up netquaking just to....?
- Terje
Steve Pritchard
Okay, it's in the list.
There you go - part of your ambition fulfilled.
Keltic
<ter...@online.no> wrote:
>Arrrgh. Oh well, one of my favorite mud names were Mauser. You realise I may
>have to take up netquaking just to....?
MMMM Mauser...
I have, for many years, lusted after a Swedish Mauser 6.5mm,
sporterised, low-power scope...
Perhaps when I enter the world of full time employ again.
Cheers, Keltic
Check out my movie reviews at:
http://comments.imdb.com/CommentsAuthor?104469
Lorrill Buyens
<0n53nc...@sneakemail.com> ordered a misc.writing pizza with extra
cheese, but got this instead:
>Belle Harper wrote:
>> Now, see, I like Poe. But I've managed to avoid Chesterton so far. Maybe you
>> can let me know how Chesterton is coming along and I can point out the
>> benefits of Poe when we both get around to it.
>
>Sounds like a plan. Mind you, SOME Poe I have had an easy time of. I
>loved "Hop-Frog" and "The Gold Bug". However, I keep trying to start
>"MS. Found in a Bottle" or "Metzengerstein" (hey, it's got a horse in
>it!) and after the first page I nod off. So dense with extraneous words!
>Or at least I, a rankly unscholared reader who doesn't know better, find
>them extraneous.
I don't really mind the classical refs in Poe or Conan Doyle or
whatever. What I *do* mind is the Greek I can't read! The only
non-English alphabet letters I know are a couple of Cyrillic ones
an' a Hebrew one.
--
Lorrill Buyens
"A load of steaming horse shit could indeed keep a human afloat, for
a tall enough and broad enough load of steaming horse shit."
- Timothy McDaniel, defining waste-product dynamics in AFU
Support the Jayne Hitchcock HELP Fund
http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/6172/helpjane.htm
Terje Johansen
Ok.....if they were all as easy to fulfill as that.
Now I'll do my best to redo the favor. Any of your nicks ready for a wild
ride?
- Terje
Steve Pritchard
> "Steve Pritchard" <S_Pri...@shef.rage.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:9q1k74$ljbd8$1...@ID-56527.news.dfncis.de...
> > "Terje Johansen" <ter...@online.no> wrote in message
> > news:3pYw7.14123$tu6.3...@news1.oke.nextra.no...
realise I
> > > may have to take up netquaking just to....?
> >
> > Okay, it's in the list.
> >
> > There you go - part of your ambition fulfilled.
> >
>
> Ok.....if they were all as easy to fulfill as that.
And it is now in the game and compiled into the code - simple, huh?
> Now I'll do my best to redo the favor. Any of your nicks ready for a
wild
> ride?
I only play arcade games by Marvin the Martian's name. He doesn't mind
because we share the same taste in laser guns.
Hound of Cullen
There *will* be a Mugwump, right?
Hound
Lorrill Buyens
ordered a misc.writing pizza with extra cheese, but got this instead:
>buy...@interlacken.com (Lorrill Buyens) writes:
>> On 03 Oct 2001 21:07:32 +0200, ilan pillemer
>> <il...@localhost.localdomain> ordered a misc.writing pizza with extra
>> cheese, but got this instead:
>> >Learn as much of what?
>>
>> How to write well.
>
>Oh. I thought you were talking about
>an education.
Learning how to write is *part* of an education, no?
>> >I know that the classic works of literature exist at much
>> >rarefied level of reality than popular writings.
>>
>> Bullshit. Shakespeare, Dickens, etc. wrote for the masses. The only
>> reason their *popular* works have survived this long is because they
>> were among the best *popular* fiction written during their respective
>> eras. For every Jane Austen who became widely-read, there was a
>> Hall Caine who didn't.
>
>If you are really trying to compare the writing
>of Shakespeare with the likes of Sydney Sheldon -
>then I would not ask your advice on what constitutes
>quality writing.
True, Shakespeare's plays are much better *popular fiction* than
anything Sheldon's ever written.
>> >Crawling into the encircling words of Proust or being subjugated by
>> >the might of Shakespeare is not comparable to the cheap thrills
>> >of John Grisham or the fast scribblings of Stephen King.
>>
>> For you, maybe, bubbie. For me, I'm jus' as happy curling up with
>> _The Tommyknockers_ or _Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone_
>> as I am snuggling down with _All Quiet on the Western Front_ or
>> _The Picture of Dorian Gray_.
>
>But that's alright, some writing was never intended
>for the vulgar.
>
>Its OK.
>
>I don't mind.
An' yer definition o' "vulgar" would be?
>I recommend _How to Read and Why_ by Harold Bloom.
After some thirty years of near-constant reading, I should
damn well know what to read how.
>> Unless you're a pretentious git, of course.
>
>Nonsense, silly.
>
>There is nothing pretentious about reading
>good literature.
There is if you believe that *only* good literature is worth
reading.
Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little
>
> I don't really mind the classical refs in Poe or Conan Doyle or
> whatever. What I *do* mind is the Greek I can't read! The only
> non-English alphabet letters I know are a couple of Cyrillic ones
> an' a Hebrew one.
Indeed. The very least today's publishers could do is put out an
Annotated Edition of The Works Of Poe, and while they're at it one of
Foucault's Pendulum -- Eco seems to expect his readers to be just as
multilingual as he. I'm sorry, I can't read French, I can pick out about
50% the Italian, and he didn't feel the need to delve into Spanish in
that book.
On the other hand, who said anything about classical refs? My problem
with Poe is just Really Dense Prose, regardless what *about*...
--
Niki
Terje Johansen
> "Terje Johansen" <ter...@online.no> wrote in message
> news:Hhex7.59$cE4....@news1.oke.nextra.no...
> > "Steve Pritchard" <S_Pri...@shef.rage.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:9q1k74$ljbd8$1...@ID-56527.news.dfncis.de...
> > > "Terje Johansen" <ter...@online.no> wrote in message
> > > news:3pYw7.14123$tu6.3...@news1.oke.nextra.no...
> > > > Arrrgh. Oh well, one of my favorite mud names were Mauser. You
> realise I
> > > > may have to take up netquaking just to....?
> > >
> > > Okay, it's in the list.
> > >
> > > There you go - part of your ambition fulfilled.
> > >
> >
> > Ok.....if they were all as easy to fulfill as that.
>
> And it is now in the game and compiled into the code - simple, huh?
>
Yihaa! You WILL tell me the name of the game, so that I can get hold of it
somehow. I want to kill myself! And after I've killed myself, i want to kick
the charred corpse and laugh manically, then shout: "Es kann ein nur geben.
Mauser ist tot. Leben Mauser!"
> > Now I'll do my best to redo the favor. Any of your nicks ready for a
> wild
> > ride?
>
> I only play arcade games by Marvin the Martian's name. He doesn't mind
> because we share the same taste in laser guns.
>
>
Is this the one that goes kabloom in letters sized Arial 1346, or the one
with the popout flag lettered 'zap'?
Marvin it is.
- Terje
Steve Pritchard
news:Xns91377EC175985pz...@209.155.56.99...
> There *will* be a Mugwump, right?
If there was, then the engine of the car he was driving would have to
whine like nothing on earth.
TaniO
(in message <9q6ct3$mc59u$1...@ID-56527.news.dfncis.de>):
Yeah, but he still gets better mileage with Velveeta than unleaded Cheese
Whiz.
TaniO
Steve Pritchard
> Yihaa! You WILL tell me the name of the game, so that I can get hold of
it
> somehow.
"Crash". On Xbox for the European launch and on PS2 six months later
(exclusivity deal).
> I want to kill myself! And after I've killed myself, i want to kick
> the charred corpse and laugh manically, then shout: "Es kann ein nur
geben.
> Mauser ist tot. Leben Mauser!"
Except Mauser might be a level 3 AI, which means he'll probably be kicking
your ass.
> > I only play arcade games by Marvin the Martian's name. He doesn't mind
> > because we share the same taste in laser guns.
>
> Is this the one that goes kabloom in letters sized Arial 1346, or the
one
> with the popout flag lettered 'zap'?
The popout flag. I love the popout flag.
Blanche Nonken
Jeff does. He's "katana" and he's in the BoA clan.
Davida Chazan
-0400, during the misc.writing Community News Flash Blanche Nonken
<bla...@newsguy.com> reported:
Whaaat? He's "katana"? With the feminine ending? Shouldn't that have been
"katan", Blanche?
The Chocolate Lady (Davida Chazan)
< davida @ jdc . org . il >
~*~*~*~*~*~
"Violence gnaws away at the very basis of Democracy...
peace truly doesn't only exist in prayers."
- Yitzhak Rabin z"l from his last speach just prior to his murder on November 5, 1995
~*~*~*~*~*~
Visit "Like Chocolate for Poetry"
http://pub58.ezboard.com/bdrchazan
~*~*~*~*~*~
Support the Jayne Hitchcock HELP Fund:
www.purpleducks.com/booksale/
Steve Pritchard
Added to the list.
Blanche Nonken
> (Please NOTE preferred E-Mail address in sig) On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:20:51
> -0400, during the misc.writing Community News Flash Blanche Nonken
> <bla...@newsguy.com> reported:
>
> >"Steve Pritchard" <S_Pri...@shef.rage.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> "Terje Johansen" <ter...@online.no> wrote in message
> >> news:tVSw7.13955$tu6.3...@news1.oke.nextra.no...
> >> > Wow. Ok, now I have a new goal for my life - getting to be IN a game.
> >>
> >> You play Quake or something like that?
> >>
> >> If so, what name do you use?
> >>
> >
> >Jeff does. He's "katana" and he's in the BoA clan.
>
> Whaaat? He's "katana"? With the feminine ending? Shouldn't that have been
> "katan", Blanche?
Yah, I *told* him, but nooooo, he insists it's Japanese or somethng.
Blanche Nonken
Cool! Thanks. And I'll have to pick up a copy for him, sort of
surprise him.
Frank Raymond Michaels
Katana is a Japanese sword, used by samurai.
Although in actual combat, most samurai used a "yari" -- a long-bladed
spear which was much more effective from horseback.
---
FRM
Hound of Cullen
<3bc81ac...@groups.i-2000.com>:
> Although in actual combat, most samurai used a "yari" -- a long-bladed
> spear which was much more effective from horseback.
> ---
> FRM
Bringing to mind that Patsy Cline song that's such a hit at samurai
karaoke: "Who's yari now?"
Hound
Terje Johansen
Haven't seen this post before now. Level 3 AI, eh? I'm going to kill a lot
of players then - bwahahaha! Great!
Pity I don't own any of those platforms. Any chance there'll ever be a PC
version?
I like the popout flags too. Especially the ones who fire a shot through the
tube 3 seconds later.
- Terje
patricia
>Now I'll ask you whether you think it
>takes as many as ten years to master
>writing skills
Actually, I think it takes a lifetime -- and then some. Or, as Jack Hodgins
says in "A Passion for Narrative": "With every new story the writer is once
again a beginner, faced with the task of having to learn all over again how to
write." (And BTW, IMHO Hodgins' book, subtitled "A Guide for Writing Fiction,"
is terrific.)
Regarding the rest of your question:
>and if you've undertaken any sort of self
>teaching by reading the classics or
>engaging in other learning that you think
>will help you as a writer (or, if you had
>such a plan, what was it, and how did it
>work out for you?).
I have a B.A. in English from UCLA and have written books on literature, so
I've studied classics up the wazoo. Didn't make me a good writer, though,
anymore than I'd become a good musician just by listening to lots of Beethoven
and Brahms. As the old saw goes, it's practice, practice, practice that gets
you to Carnegie Hall.
-- patricia (still practicing)
Blanche Nonken
> (And BTW, IMHO Hodgins' book, subtitled "A Guide for Writing Fiction,"
> is terrific.)
<scribble>
gekko
Blanche Nonken <bla...@newsguy.com>, and the date, Thu, 18 Oct 2001
17:17:59 -0400, and even the newsgroup in which i read this,
misc.writing. There. You happy?
BLANCHIE! What did I tell you about scribbling
in gekko's books!
--
gekko
I never asked for proof of your insanity. I was content to merely
suspect it.
Blanche Nonken
> This is an attribution line. In this, I'm expected to cite the author,
> Blanche Nonken <bla...@newsguy.com>, and the date, Thu, 18 Oct 2001
> 17:17:59 -0400, and even the newsgroup in which i read this,
> misc.writing. There. You happy?
> >
> > sfd...@aol.comnojunk (patricia) wrote:
> >
> > > (And BTW, IMHO Hodgins' book, subtitled "A Guide for Writing Fiction,"
> > > is terrific.)
> >
> > <scribble>
>
> BLANCHIE! What did I tell you about scribbling
> in gekko's books!
Aw, mom, bite me.
Belle Harper
news:20011018161123...@mb-fw.aol.com...
This is a good point. Probably only writing and more writing can increase
one's ability, up to a point. I have the idea that being well-read makes a
person a better thinker (at least a better-informed one) and therefore
possibly a better writer. There's a type of literacy that helps a person
write (make) a more persuasive argument, or write a more interesting
article, or perhaps a character with more depth. I'm just thinking out loud
here, but it seems to me that being well read may improve a writer's depth
if not his ability.
Or something like that,
Belle