Fantasy ~ not a 'real' genre??.... why?....and hi Lee
Placebo7
Anyway, I am a young writer, and addicted reader, but I have noticed, much to
my dismay that no one seems to take the Fantasy - adventure genre seriously.
This is epecially annoying as it is one of, if not my favourite genre for
reading, and it is the genre which I write in.
Does anyone have any thoughts/opinions/reasons/anyhting to say about this?
Thanks,
C.S.
PS Hey to Lee, if you see this!!!!
David M. Harris
Placebo7 wrote:
>
> Hi, this is my 1st time posting here, so please be kind...
>
> Anyway, I am a young writer, and addicted reader, but I have noticed, much to
> my dismay that no one seems to take the Fantasy - adventure genre seriously.
> This is epecially annoying as it is one of, if not my favourite genre for
> reading, and it is the genre which I write in.
> Does anyone have any thoughts/opinions/reasons/anyhting to say about this?
Who doesn't take it seriously? I'm teaching Major Literary Types next
semester, and one of the types is fantasy (although not adventure; I'm
using Peter Beagle's A FINE AND PRIVATE PLACE). And while I had to get
the reading list approved, the only question about that title was
whether it was too long to get through in the allotted three weeks (it
isn't).
dmh
--
Ibi este aut quadratus este.
BCham...@erols.com
If anyone tells you that, it's bullshit. The main reason that MOST
people don't take this type of writing seriously is becasue MOST of it
is shit. Of course there is a lot of mainstream fiction out there
that blows the proverbial tuna, but the majority of fantasy just
stinks. Don't listen to other people unless the person in front of
you is your agent and or publisher. In that case listen. Otherwise
raise your middle finger and let that speak for you. Fantasy can be
taken seriously. There are a lot of writers out there that make good
money at writring these kinds of books. I hope to be one of them
someday.
J. B. Chamberlin
On 11 Jan 1999 22:25:08 GMT, plac...@aol.com (Placebo7) wrote:
>Hi, this is my 1st time posting here, so please be kind...
>
>Anyway, I am a young writer, and addicted reader, but I have noticed, much to
>my dismay that no one seems to take the Fantasy - adventure genre seriously.
>This is epecially annoying as it is one of, if not my favourite genre for
>reading, and it is the genre which I write in.
>Does anyone have any thoughts/opinions/reasons/anyhting to say about this?
>
Glenn Williams
<coldspri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>Placebo7 wrote:
>>
>> Hi, this is my 1st time posting here, so please be kind...
>>
>> Anyway, I am a young writer, and addicted reader, but I have noticed, much to
>> my dismay that no one seems to take the Fantasy - adventure genre seriously.
>> This is epecially annoying as it is one of, if not my favourite genre for
>> reading, and it is the genre which I write in.
>> Does anyone have any thoughts/opinions/reasons/anyhting to say about this?
>
>Who doesn't take it seriously? I'm teaching Major Literary Types next
>semester, and one of the types is fantasy (although not adventure; I'm
>using Peter Beagle's A FINE AND PRIVATE PLACE). And while I had to get
>the reading list approved, the only question about that title was
>whether it was too long to get through in the allotted three weeks (it
>isn't).
>
>dmh
>
>
>--
>Ibi este aut quadratus este.
>
Beagle's book is one of the greats, but I'll bet the genre is tarred
by Placebo7's complainers because (1) it tends toward lighter fluff
(yes, even Tolkien), (2) is aimed more toward a mass audience (ie, one
doesn't need to register for a graduate level english course to read
it), and (3) those godawful covers, as lurid as the more trashy
romances.
Judging from the discussions in my wife's department (english), the
professors don't like it (but they read romances under the covers with
a flashlight). In short, nittering nabobs of negativism don't like
the genres. TS.
Adventure and fantasy are among the older (oldest if you include
Gilgamesh) genres. We've been entertained, sustained and challenged
by them for milenia. So, for the looking down the nosers, you know
what Bette Midler says?
Glenn Williams
Licensed Bureaucrat, Retired
"Have paper, will travel."
Steve Pritchard
Placebo7 wrote in message <19990111172508...@ng07.aol.com>...
>Hi, this is my 1st time posting here, so please be kind...
Most of us are <g>. Welcome.
>Anyway, I am a young writer, and addicted reader, but I have noticed,
much to
>my dismay that no one seems to take the Fantasy - adventure genre
seriously.
Wrong. Many people here do so. Many publishers do so. I do so.
Dorothy J Heydt
Placebo7 <plac...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>...I have noticed, much to
>my dismay that no one seems to take the Fantasy - adventure genre seriously.
>reading, and it is the genre which I write in.
It's a specialized genre. This particular group talks about all
forms of the writing craft, including (shudder) nonfiction. So
you won't find much fantasy per square foot.
If you read rec.arts.sf.written and rec.arts.sf.composition, you'll
find comments on both science fiction and fantasy.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
_A Point of Honor_ is out....
LawrenceT5
is the first example of a shared-universe fantasy novel.
LawrenceT5
"literary" writers who wish to try their hand at an 'easy' genre for some quick
bucks. I'm thinking of writers such as Salman Rushdie (fantasy: The Satanic
Verses) and Sidney Sheldon (SF: The Doomsday Conspiracy).
LeeAWeathe
Hi, CS :-)
Nice to see you here!
Well, *I* for one certainly take it seriously, since it's what
I most love to read (and write).
However, I have to say that most people I know don't know
a thing about it. They ask me what I write and I say
fantasy, and their brows wrinkle up and then they say,
"Oh. Like Terry Pratchett."
Nowt wrong with ol' Terry, of course, but puh-leeze. No, I
want to say, more like (in my dreams, gods) Sheri S. Tepper,
at whose shrine I kneel down and worship -- and oh please,
oh please oh please, writing gods, when I grow up I want to
have talent just like Sheri's...
But no one's heard of Sheri S. Tepper. So I just manage
a pained smile and say, "Sort of. Only not funny."
(sigh)
I could say loads more on the subject, such as how I think
Tolkein simultaneously created and ruined the genre (neat
trick), but I'll stop now.
Lee
LeeAWeathe
In article <19990111185303...@ng41.aol.com>, lawre...@aol.com
(LawrenceT5) writes:
And by way of contrast, look at Michael Moorcock, who also writes
pretty decent 'literary' fiction.
Could it be that fantasy writing is the harder craft to learn, and that
once you have that down, 'literary' writing is a doddle? (I like
this argument.)
Lee
Dorothy J Heydt
>
>....The main reason that MOST
>people don't take this type of writing seriously is becasue MOST of it
Possibly, since the original poster is new, s/he hasn't heard of
Sturgeon's Law?
More properly, Sturgeon's Revelation.
So I'll tell the tale.
Noted sf/f writer Theodore Sturgeon was at a cocktail party and
somebody came up to him and asked that basic American question,
"What do you do?"
"I write science fiction."
"Oh." (patronizing tone) "I used to read that stuff sometimes,
but you know, ninety percent of it is crud."
"Yes. Yes, ninety percent of science fiction is crud. But
ninety percent of EVERYTHING is crud!!"
And the moral of it all is to try and be good enough to get into
the other ten percent.
Aorel1
I know exactly what you mean. I enjoy well-written fantasy and I strive to
write well-written fantasy. However, when someone asks me what type of fiction
I write and I tell them, I can tell that suddenly I'm not being taken as
seriously as before. Oh, well. It's not something I worry about or anything.
Sunbeam the Deacon
>
> All fiction may be considered a subset of fantasy. I believe the New Testament
> is the first example of a shared-universe fantasy novel.
Christ, isn't it the truth.
But this brings up a kind of paradox about fantasy. Supposedly it isn't
limited by anything except the author's imagination and yet it turns out
to be so highly formulaic that it is as a rule pretty uninventive.
Maybe all that weight of tradition reaching back to the Gospels and
Gilgamesh really clogs the whole reading and writing process to the
point that even the New Testiment looks fairly interesting compared to
the next pair of youngsters discovering the secrets of that stinky old
wizard etc. etc.
Malodorously..............................................Pete
Ian Kinsey
LawrenceT5 wrote in message <19990111185303...@ng41.aol.com>...
>The very worst fantasy (and science fiction) is written by "mainstream" or
>"literary" writers who wish to try their hand at an 'easy' genre for some
quick
>bucks. I'm thinking of writers such as Salman Rushdie (fantasy: The
Satanic
>Verses) and Sidney Sheldon (SF: The Doomsday Conspiracy).
Fantasy and SF (some people have a problem differentiating the two) as well
as writing for children is (and no ego trips please) a gift.
Fantasy/SF writers I enjoy spending time with make it all believable.
Believability is also a requirement for mystery, romance writers or
techno-thriller writers, but the aforementioned genre have known
environments to draw from. The fantasy/SF writer needs that extra focus.
I've tried and the end result was horrific. I tip my hat to those who can
make the leap into "Middle Earth".
Ian K
Steve Pritchard
LeeAWeathe wrote in message
<19990111184651...@ngol07.aol.com>...
>However, I have to say that most people I know don't know
>a thing about it. They ask me what I write and I say
>fantasy, and their brows wrinkle up and then they say,
>
>"Oh. Like Terry Pratchett."
>
>Nowt wrong with ol' Terry, of course,
Your opinion, of course Lee.
(I think he stinks, and if you've ever met the guy, you'd probably think
so too - Gods, does he love himself)
My opinion, of course <g>
Victoria Strauss
> I know exactly what you mean. I enjoy well-written fantasy and I strive to
> write well-written fantasy. However, when someone asks me what type of fiction
> I write and I tell them, I can tell that suddenly I'm not being taken as
> seriously as before.
I had that conversation recently with someone I met at a Christmas
party. After a bit of awkwardness, I realized that he assumed that
"fantasy" meant erotic novels. He was very embarassed when I explained
(and much less interested in my writing...)
-Victoria
--
Victoria Strauss
THE ARM OF THE STONE (Avon Eos 1998)
Homepage: http://www.sff.net/people/victoriastrauss
Writer Beware: http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/Warnings.html
David M. Harris
Glenn Williams wrote:
>
> On Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:33:41 -0500, "David M. Harris"
> <coldspri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >Who doesn't take it seriously? I'm teaching Major Literary Types next
> >semester, and one of the types is fantasy (although not adventure; I'm
> >using Peter Beagle's A FINE AND PRIVATE PLACE). And while I had to get
> >the reading list approved, the only question about that title was
> >whether it was too long to get through in the allotted three weeks (it
> >isn't).
> >
> >dmh
> >
> Beagle's book is one of the greats, but I'll bet the genre is tarred
> by Placebo7's complainers because (1) it tends toward lighter fluff
> (yes, even Tolkien), (2) is aimed more toward a mass audience (ie, one
> doesn't need to register for a graduate level english course to read
> it), and (3) those godawful covers, as lurid as the more trashy
> romances.
This is just Sturgeon's Rule in action ("Ninety percent of everything is
crud.") My own limited experience in academia (I'm starting my second
semester as a teacher) indicates that it's a market situation -- if
there are people who want to take a course in time-travel romances,
someone will offer it. Just because a professor gets an idea for a
course in, say, "Freud, Dentistry, and the Modern Novel" doesn't mean
the course will happen.
Most contemporary novels are garbage. Most fantasy novels are garbage.
Okay, the percentage of fantasy adventure novels that are garbage is
higher than the percentage of midlist literary novels that are garbage
(I speak from knowledge: I was a trade editor of science fiction and
fantasy for many years, and have written both), but a lot does have to
do with the goals of the two categories.
Perhaps heroic fantasy gets less respect because its goals are, in
=more= cases than non-genre work, limited to entertainment. Good
fiction of any sort reveals something about ourselves and our
relationship with the universe, but fiction that deliberately sets out
to explore that has more resonance, and offers more meat for the
critical reader. Since the goal of a literature course is to hone the
skills of critical readers, it makes sense to offer more challenging
material.
But I don't know if that's really what Placebo7 had in mind.
David M. Harris
LeeAWeathe wrote:
>
>
> Could it be that fantasy writing is the harder craft to learn, and that
> once you have that down, 'literary' writing is a doddle? (I like
> this argument.)
No. Most fantasy writers don't =want= to write anything else. Moorcock
is a literary writer who blundered over into SF at a young age. Aldiss
is another example, although he's considered a literary figure (rather
than SF) in Britain.
Most fantasy writing is deliberately stripped of subtlety; most genre
writing of all sorts is similarly stripped. That's why the bulk of it
gets no respect outside the genre borders: it's a form of preaching to
the choir.
Spoonzilla
>Hi, this is my 1st time posting here, so please be kind...
Welcome :)
>Anyway, I am a young writer, and addicted reader, but I have noticed, much
to
>my dismay that no one seems to take the Fantasy - adventure genre
seriously.
I've found that most academicians are happy to discuss Fantasy and SF as
literature as long as the works are not labelled as Fantasy or SF. Evidence
of this is easy to spot. Novels such as 1984, Brave New World, Animal Farm,
Frankenstein, and the works of writers such as Homer, Kafka, Shakespeare
(The Tempest, A Midsummer Night's Dream), Morrison (Beloved), Voltaire,
Swift, Garcia Marquez, etc., etc., etc., are rarely, if ever, acknowledged
as Fantasy or SF. Instead, euphemisms are employed. 1984 and BNW are
examples of Distopian Literature. Kafka and Morrison dabble in the Surreal.
Voltaire and Swift? They are Satirists, and Garcia Marquez is a master of
Magical Realism. Homer, of course, wrote epic dramas sprinkled with
mythology. And Frankenstein... well, Frankenstein is credited as Horror,
but it's a cut above because its subtitle (The Modern Prometheus) signals
that it follows in the steps of classical mythology.
As for heroic fantasy, refer to the following: Beowulf, the works of Homer,
the Arthurian Legends, Classical Mythology, etc. In short, there's a lot of
it being read in post-graduate courses.
Gianfranco
~spoonzilla
Aorel1
>party. After a bit of awkwardness, I realized that he assumed that
>"fantasy" meant erotic novels. He was very embarassed when I explained
>(and much less interested in my writing...)
LOL!!!! Now I feel much better :)
LawrenceT5
>
>Most fantasy writing is deliberately stripped of subtlety; most genre
>writing of all sorts is similarly stripped. That's why the bulk of it
>gets no respect outside the genre borders: it's a form of preaching to
>the choir.
Similarly, it seems that most "literary" writing is stripped of
characterization, setting, and plot, leaving only the excesses of florid
descriptive writing to impress other practitioners of the genra.
LeeAWeathe
In article <19990113082931...@ng-fi1.aol.com>, lawre...@aol.com
(LawrenceT5) writes:
This is why I love juvenile fiction. There are some truly superb
writers in the genre, such as Cynthia Voigt and Katherine
Patterson... and it seems to me that, although both of their
writing styles are strong and beautifully lyric, their work
concentrates almost solely on characterisation and plot.
It's also why I love fantasy... that and the experience of being
taken to other worlds. Sheri S. Tepper is a goddess, have
I mentioned this? Gods, she's good.
Lee (forget the artsy-fartsy literary junk, just give me the STORY...)
Steve Pritchard
LeeAWeathe wrote in message
<19990113140212...@ngol08.aol.com>...
>It's also why I love fantasy... that and the experience of being
>taken to other worlds. Sheri S. Tepper is a goddess, have
>I mentioned this? Gods, she's good.
Do you know how long I've looked for a copy of "One True Game"? Oh, about
forever and a day.
BCham...@erols.com
I agree, but look at the works you refer to. Comparing those to
modern fantasy is like comparing Dickens to Jackie Collins. It can be
done, but of what relavance is it?
J. B. Chamberlin
Glenn Williams
[snipped]
>I agree, but look at the works you refer to.
[he referred to Voltaire, Swift, Shelley, et al.]
> Comparing those to
>modern fantasy is like comparing Dickens to Jackie Collins. It can be
>done, but of what relavance is it?
>
>J. B. Chamberlin
>
>
But the argument of Sturgeon's Law is not time bound. You can read
The Golden Ass or The Castle of Otranto (or Chretien de Troyes
Arthurian Romances which I just waded through), but not a second time.
Howsomever, as ole prof Howland Owl used to say: There is modern
fantasy which is good. Back in the 60s and 70s Ballantine ran a
series labelled Adult Fantasy, and sadwiched in with Dunsany and
George Meredith was the first Katherine Kurtz Deryni novel. L Sprague
de Camp wrote quite a bit of good modern fantasy (Lest Darkness Fall
is one of the few with a Byzantine background).
The first task of the fantasy writer is the same as the
"literary"writer: entertain the reader. A good story comes first.
Message, meaning, subtleties, all are secondary and subordinate.
Aorel1
>"literary"writer: entertain the reader. A good story comes first.
>Message, meaning, subtleties, all are secondary and subordinate.
>
>
I agree! So many writers I have known are too hung up on trying to be profound.
Their stories or poetry just drip with pretension--ugh!
Wolf Lahti
>
>In article <F5F5u...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>>"Yes. Yes, ninety percent of science fiction is crud. But
>>ninety percent of EVERYTHING is crud!!"
>>
>>And the moral of it all is to try and be good enough to get into
>>the other ten percent.
>>
>
>
>
>-- D.
>
Nope. It's commonly misquoted as 'crap', however.
=======================================================
"I hate quotations!" Wolf Lahti
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson Allen, Washington
-------------------------------------------------------
wd...@paccar.com wolf-...@usa.net
=======================================================
Dorothy J Heydt
J.R. Dean <jrd+u...@enclave.org> wrote:
>>>>ninety percent of EVERYTHING is crud!!"
>>>Wasn't that "crap," not crud?
>>Nope. It's commonly misquoted as 'crap', however.
>Are you sure? According to Harlan Ellison, among others,
>it's commonly misquoted as "shit."
It may be misquoted as all sorts of things, and the word used by
Mr. Sturgeon and the other guy at the cocktail party may have
originally been all sorts of things, but the term passed down
along SF fandom through several generations is "crud." I prefer
the term myself: it doesn't suggest excrement, or something
really disgusting, just the miscellaneous grime that builds up,
e.g., on the toaster and you have to scrape it off now and then.