Writing and/or education?
March Hare
So here's a question:
What's the average education here on misc.writing? How important is
formal education to writing?
And to start off, I'm a third-year college student. More and more I'm
getting the distinctly uncomfortable feeling that every class I take is
only calcifying my mind a little more. Of course, I may just feel that
way because the first round of exams is upon me. Whatever.
-Will
Jerry Kindall
In article
<Pine.OSF.3.96.970922...@surfer2.surf.scs.unr.edu>, March
Hare <will...@scs.unr.edu> wrote:
This is quite possible. Anything worth knowing -- excepting certain
specialized trades such as medicine -- you can teach yourself, and you'll
learn it better when you seek it out because you're interested in it than
when it's crammed down your throat because you're on some kind of a
schedule and NOW is the time to read Plato.
I make my living writing computer manuals and other such stuff. I have an
associate degree in computer science (which basically means I know how to
program mainframes in COBOL -- I've never used these skills in a job) and
no formal training in writing. I was writing professionally before I
graduated. This is what I wanted to do and I'm very happy to be able to
make a living at it now, after putting in my time on the corporate
treadmill. You may have more literary ambitions, but the important thing
to keep in mind is that what you do in college may or may not end up
having anything to do with your career as a writer, if you have one.
The main thing a college education will do for you is allow you to get a
job you can tolerate so you won't starve while you're writing. Thus it is
not a bad idea to have one. You may even learn something about writing in
college, but it will generally be what they wanted you to know rather than
what you wanted to know.
> -Will
--
Jerry Kindall <kin...@manual.com>
Manual Labor <http://www.manual.com/>
Please excuse the inevitable typos. I'm learning Dvorak.
Alma Hromic
On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:08:49 -0700, Towse <to...@null.net> wrote:
>March Hare wrote:
>>
>> So here's a question:
>>
>> What's the average education here on misc.writing? How important is
>> formal education to writing?
>
>Four year degree: Biology with a Chemistry minor.
>
MSc (microbiology major)
i did a molecular biology and genetics component in that, and latterly
it's come in useful while figurring out the genetics of a bunch of
aliens in a tale-in-progress <G> other than that, in answer to your
second question, not very - unless you happen to write professionally
in the field of your postgraduate degree....
*****************************************************************************
If life had a second edition, how I would correct the proofs!
(John Clare)
*****************************************************************************
Towse
March Hare wrote:
>
> So here's a question:
>
> What's the average education here on misc.writing? How important is
> formal education to writing?
Hope you get enough feedback to do the stats yourself.
Four year degree: Biology with a Chemistry minor.
Formal education is worth zip as a writer unless you want to write for
someone in need of letters after the name. If you want to write
non-fiction in a specialty, those letters after your name can mean quite
a lot to the bloke buying your bit and writing the check.
Why else all the idiotic diet books written by MDs.
Sal
Sara Zarr
On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:58:23 -0400, kin...@mail.manual.com (Jerry
Kindall) wrote:
(among other things)
>The main thing a college education will do for you is allow you to get a
>job you can tolerate so you won't starve while you're writing.
Not necessarily. But it can't hurt.
-Sara
Jack Mingo
March Hare wrote:
>
> So here's a question:
>
> What's the average education here on misc.writing? How important is
> formal education to writing?
My college years helped my writing a great deal, but I had the good
sense not to take too many writing courses, perhaps a half-dozen total.
The best ones I took were evening ones in which a number of adults of
all ages were members, people who already had had lives worth writing
about. The worst were filled with people my age all trying to top each
other in sounding like William Burroughs and such.
Psychology, sociology, philosophy, history were all especially valuable.
Jack (My most memorable time in school was the night I decided to take a
drum major with a coal minor) Mingo
Sara Zarr
On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:12:41 -0700, March Hare <will...@scs.unr.edu>
wrote:
>What's the average education here on misc.writing?
Well, I've got a BA in Speech Com, with an emphasis on Organizational
Communication. The degree itself hasn't done me a bit of good, but
then I've never really tried to use it. I'm not the career-path type.
> How important is
>formal education to writing?
I think it depends what you want to write. It is my opinion that the
primary function of higher education these days (unless you're going
for something specific...med school, teaching credential, etc) is to
spend time as an adult in an (hopefully) intellectual, educational
environment. When you are all done with school, you will soon find
out that there are very few places where the open exchange of ideas is
valued. Enjoy it while you can. And of course, the longer you live
and spend time around other education-minded folks, the more "general
stuff" (that's the technical term) you will absorb, and this will help
your writing.
> More and more I'm
>getting the distinctly uncomfortable feeling that every class I take is
>only calcifying my mind a little more.
Yes, it does feel that way, doesn't it? Hang in there, you're almost
done.
-Sara
twi...@worldnet.att.net
March Hare <will...@scs.unr.edu> wrote:
>So here's a question:
>
>What's the average education here on misc.writing? How important is
>formal education to writing?
>
>And to start off, I'm a third-year college student. More and more I'm
>getting the distinctly uncomfortable feeling that every class I take is
>only calcifying my mind a little more. Of course, I may just feel that
>way because the first round of exams is upon me. Whatever.
>
>-Will
>
Fourteen schools, twenty-two years. Undergraduate
majors/minors: History, English, Physics. Graduate School:
History, Journalism. Fields of interest: Medieval English
and Islamic History. And just about anything else that
isn't tied down. Languages read: Latin, Anglo Saxon,
French, Italian, Spanish, German. And remember, I said
*read*. These days I need a dictionary, too.
Writing: Tech manuals, mil-spec. Copy for advertising,
public relations, speeches. Published in Historical
Romance, Nineteenth Century, naturally, because it was
outside my field in college.
Sharon AKA Sarah Edwards
PS The other half of the Sarah Edwards pen name majored in
Physics with a geophysics option and Mathematics. Minored
in History and Music. Graduate work in Atmospheric Physics
and Systems Engineering. What can I say. He's a polymath.
twi...@worldnet.att.net
kin...@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote:
>In article
><Pine.OSF.3.96.970922...@surfer2.surf.scs.unr.edu>, March
>Hare <will...@scs.unr.edu> wrote:
>
>> So here's a question:
>>
>> What's the average education here on misc.writing? How important is
>> formal education to writing?
>>
>> And to start off, I'm a third-year college student. More and more I'm
>> getting the distinctly uncomfortable feeling that every class I take is
>> only calcifying my mind a little more. Of course, I may just feel that
>> way because the first round of exams is upon me. Whatever.
>
>This is quite possible. Anything worth knowing -- excepting certain
>specialized trades such as medicine -- you can teach yourself, and you'll
>learn it better when you seek it out because you're interested in it than
>when it's crammed down your throat because you're on some kind of a
>schedule and NOW is the time to read Plato.
>
>I make my living writing computer manuals and other such stuff. I have an
>associate degree in computer science (which basically means I know how to
>program mainframes in COBOL -- I've never used these skills in a job) and
>no formal training in writing. I was writing professionally before I
>graduated. This is what I wanted to do and I'm very happy to be able to
>make a living at it now, after putting in my time on the corporate
>treadmill. You may have more literary ambitions, but the important thing
>to keep in mind is that what you do in college may or may not end up
>having anything to do with your career as a writer, if you have one.
>
>The main thing a college education will do for you is allow you to get a
>job you can tolerate so you won't starve while you're writing. Thus it is
>not a bad idea to have one. You may even learn something about writing in
>college, but it will generally be what they wanted you to know rather than
>what you wanted to know.
>
>> -Will
>
>--
>Jerry Kindall <kin...@manual.com>
>Manual Labor <http://www.manual.com/>
>
>Please excuse the inevitable typos. I'm learning Dvorak.
Two of the most important things to remember about a college
education:
1. With a bachelor's degree and a buck you can buy a cup of
coffee. You can also do it without the degree.
2. A bachelor's degree is a strong indicator of your
capacity to withstand boredom.
Sharon AKA Sarah Edwards
PDNetzley
In discussing courses helpful to writers,
Jack Mingo <mi...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>Psychology, sociology, philosophy, history
>were all especially valuable.
Definitely.
Also, I believe it's important for writers to *keep
taking courses like that -- to learn new info, to
get new ideas, etc. etc. -- even after they've
graduated. I still take a couple of weekend or
night classes a year.
-- patricia
rit...@bbs.cruzio.com
In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.970922...@surfer2.surf.scs.unr.edu>, March Hare <will...@scs.unr.edu> writes:
> So here's a question:
>
> What's the average education here on misc.writing? How important is
> formal education to writing?
>
> And to start off, I'm a third-year college student. More and more I'm
> getting the distinctly uncomfortable feeling that every class I take is
> only calcifying my mind a little more. Of course, I may just feel that
> way because the first round of exams is upon me. Whatever.
>
>
This is another thing nobody can tell you whether to do or not.
But I have to say that now I truly treasure my school years and the
things I got to hear and read and talk about. And the slack.
I am truly lucky that I was in school both times I had babies. So much more
flexible than working.
But I did leave college without graduating, the first couple times around, so
I could go work in factories.
Course, I would not tell anybody to model their careers on mine.
Lucy Kemnitzer
PDNetzley
Sal Towse <to...@null.net>
took me to task by writing:
>'Twas why I said "those letters after your
>name _CAN_ mean" rather than
>"those letters after your name mean," eh?
Sorry, Sal. I didn't even see the "can." (No --
that was NOT a set-up for a bathroom pun.)
I posted that message at 7 a.m., after staying up
until 3 a.m. reading "The Edible Woman" by
Margaret Atwood. And I've got 21 more social-protest
novels to read before the end of the week. So
(sob!) please (sob!) don't be too hard on me. . . .
-- patricia
PDNetzley
Regarding the education question and
Sal's response:
>If you want to write non-fiction in a
>specialty, those letters after your name can mean quite
>a lot to the bloke buying your bit and writing the check.
Sometimes, but not necessarily.
About six months ago, I was vying for a contract at
a company that uses either MAs or Ph.Ds to write its
nonfiction reference books. At first the publisher was
reluctant to deal with me, because I only have a B.A.
(in English, from UCLA) -- and then he read my writing
sample. "Wow!" he said. "You write so much more *clearly
than our other writers!" He hired me to do two books
for him, and is now discussing future projects.
-- patricia
Towse
'Twas why I said "those letters after your name _CAN_ mean" rather than
"those letters after your name mean," eh?
Sal
Ron Moskovitz
A good education will never hurt. But please note the word "good"
in that sentence.
I do not agree that you can learn anything worth knowing by yourself--
quite the contrary, I think you learn a lot when you're challanged on
your basic assumptions. When you say, "This is what I think," and
somebody tears you to shreds on it so you have to defend what you think,
rather than just say it.
A good education teaches you to think critically, which is a valuable
skill no matter what you chose to do, writing included. Literature
classes can expose you to books (and ways of looking at them) which you
would have picked up alone.
It is, of course, possible to get nothing from a college education except
a degree. You're not going to get much out of it if you don't put anything
into it.
-Ron
Pat Marcello
March Hare <will...@scs.unr.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.OSF.3.96.970922...@surfer2.surf.scs.unr.edu>...
> So here's a question:
>
> What's the average education here on misc.writing? How important is
> formal education to writing?
I have an almost worthless degree from the University of Pittsburgh in
sociology. The only way it helped me to become a writer was through all
the danged term papers I had to write.
--
Pat M. And write. And write.
Support the Jayne Hitchcock HELP Fund:
http://www.geocities.com/~hitchcockc/story.html#fund
Janet Peck
rit...@bbs.cruzio.com wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.970922...@surfer2.surf.scs.unr.edu>, March Hare <will...@scs.unr.edu> writes:
> >
> > What's the average education here on misc.writing? How important is
> > formal education to writing?
> >
> > getting the distinctly uncomfortable feeling that every class I take is
> > only calcifying my mind a little more. Of course, I may just feel that
> > way because the first round of exams is upon me. Whatever.
> >
> > -Will
> >
>
emphasis in human resources. I found college, both at the undergraduate
and the graduate level, to be invaluable, and if I had a choice of
whether or not to do it again, I would.
JT (moving to a new virtual location 9/29/97) Peck
Mark Roy Long
March Hare (will...@scs.unr.edu) wrote:
> What's the average education here on misc.writing?
ba in english, minor in linguistics from university of tx-austin (hated
the year-round humidity, otoh, loved the town so much it took me 8 years
to finish my degree) , ma creative writing u of north texas.
> How important is formal education to writing?
Oh, I have sort of mixed feelings about it. the experience of getting to
be in a community of creative writers in grad school was really nice (for
a while--most of those people i finally discovered i could only take in
small doses.) and i learned a few things about what makes up a story and
how to critique stories. i supposed the best thing about it was
discovering a few important things here and there so that even though i
c/would have learned them on my own, it kept me from having to re-invent
the wheel about 18 times. my linguistics background was helpful because i
took a few courses in ling and lit which force you look at the level of
the word as opposed to just making sweeping generalizations about theme
that were vague enough to be true. taking latin helped too. but some of
the most influential experiences i had in college that changed my writing
often had little to do with the act itself. i spent a summer at ut's
shakespeare at winedale prorgram (a kind of shakespeare concentration
camp--that may sound like a joke. it is not.) where we had to closely
examine the plays to build three productions from the ground up. that
taught me a lot about close reading. and also listening to one of henry
rollins (the ex-black flag singer) spoken word cd's--it was the *way* he
told the stories that made them interesting, not necessarily the subject
matter per se. however, getting my ma does mean that now i get to teach
comp at the college level as opposed to mowing yards for a living (i've
done both since getting my ma). some of the contacts i made at unt were
helpful too. but as far as writing goes? all you need are 2-3 good
readers who'll look at your early drafts and make the kind of helpful
comments that you can work with during the revision process (and learning
how to shape stories in revision is the big thing you need to learn).
mrl
(_lysistrata_ is now three days away)
Pastorio
In article
<Pine.OSF.3.96.970922...@surfer2.surf.scs.unr.edu>, March
Hare <will...@scs.unr.edu> writes:
>
>What's the average education here on misc.writing? How important is
>formal education to writing?
>
>And to start off, I'm a third-year college student. More and more I'm
>getting the distinctly uncomfortable feeling that every class I take is
>only calcifying my mind a little more. Of course, I may just feel that
>way because the first round of exams is upon me. Whatever.
A decade and a third at university level study from very impressive
schools in the northeast that keep asking me for money. Would that they
had prepared me to earn some. More degrees than Kelvin; not as cool.
I don't think classes make for stodginess or rigidity. Stodge and rigid
come from within and only need the right environment to reach the fullest
flowering.
Bob(degree - something that belongs in an oven so you can make
dinner)Pastorio
Kathie Meyer
In article <19970923173...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
I agree. I took a year's worth of women's art
history last year and loved it. Post-graduation
study is for taking the classes you wished you
were in when you had to take statistics in order
to graduate.
I finished my degree not because I thought it
would help me become what I am, but because
there is value in the exposure to all things
university and value in finishing what I
started.
Kathie Meyer
>
>-- patricia
Bill Oliver
In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.970922...@surfer2.surf.scs.unr.edu>,
>formal education to writing?
>
>And to start off, I'm a third-year college student. More and more I'm
>getting the distinctly uncomfortable feeling that every class I take is
>only calcifying my mind a little more. Of course, I may just feel that
>way because the first round of exams is upon me. Whatever.
>
>
The formal and informal educational levels probably vary all over the
place in this group.
In my personal opinion, I think that formal education of any sort
provides a wonderful *opportunity* for making one's writing better,
and like all opportunities, it can be exploited or missed. Look
at it in two ways.
First, look at the craft of writing. Of course, one can learn to be a
good writer without formal training, just as one can learn to be a
great musician or visual artist without formal training. However,
formal training is often a very efficient way of learning those basic
journeyman skills that everyone needs. In almost all crafts, young
folk often dislike doing basic skill-oriented tasks. Nobody
particularly likes spending hours and hours doing representational
drawing of boring objects. Nobody particularly likes spending hours and
hours playing scales and arpeggios. Nobody particularly likes spending
hours and hours doing those seemingly silly "describe the tree outside
the window" writing exercises.
However, folk who truly excel by moving beyond the traditional forms
often do so not because they were ignorant of them, but because they
had mastered them and used them as a point from which to move on. I
have seen many folk in the visual arts, and, unfortunately, quite a few
writers who had very good ideas, but simply didn't have a grasp of the
basics of simple representational skills in visual arts or, in writing,
even an adequate vocabulary or decent grasp of syntax and grammar.
There was an interview of Ray Charles on NPR this morning I heard as
I drove in to work. The interviewer asked Mr. Charles how much
he practiced. Mr. Charles answered that, while he didn't always have
as much time as he liked, he still tried to practice every day, and
often practiced at least an hour or two. The interviewer then asked
*what* he practiced. Mr. Charles replied that he practiced scales,
arpeggios, finger exercises, and such. The interviewer, surprised,
asked "You don't practice the music you are about to perform?"
Mr. Charles replied "No, I perform what I already *know.* I practice
so I can move on somewhere new."
Is formal training necessary to gain these abilities? No. However, it
provides a structured environment which may make such learning more
efficient, and it provides access to people with knowledge and
companions with enthusiasm. One of the things that I have noticed when
comparing areas of knowledge in which I am formally trained and in
which I am self-taught is that my knowledge in the self-taught areas is
often much more spotty. It is deep in areas in which I have a specific
interest or history, and very light in areas that I didn't have the
self-discipline to explore or, even worse, that I didn't know enough to
even know that I was was so woefully ignorant.
Let me give you an example of a course in which I learned much
that it would have been extremely difficult for me to gain
experience in on my own. This was a combined curriculum course
taught at the University of Oklahoma in which the social history of the
early industrial revolution Europe was taught through social novels
of the time. The course was taught by one history prof and one
English prof. In taking that course, I not only got a wonderful
sense of the time, but I was exposed to Hardy, Zola, Dickens, Fowles,
and others in a way that made them interesting and comprehensible in spite
of the fact that their writing styles were not immediately to my more
modern tastes. Those writeres, in turn, served as the starting points
for more exploration. Could I have done the same without the course?
Perhaps, but I had never heard of Zola or Hardy before that course,
and rarely hear of them in casual conversation. I consider it unlikely
that I would have bothered to have picked them up on my own, when
there are other things that so easily capture my interest.
Finally, people write about what they know, and writing well in some
areas is aided by knowledge in them. Could John Grisham write great
trial novels had he not been a lawyer? I doubt it. His first novel
is derived from his trial experience, and his works succeed in part
because he expresses what he has learned so well. Could Michael Chrichton
(sp?) have written the Andromeda Strain without having had formal
training in medicine and biology? Perhaps, but I doubt it. The
formal training he received in the sciences has served him well. Could
Patricia Cornwall have written as convincingly about forensics without
forensic training? Probably not. Could Agatha Christie written
about poisons so well without *her* training in the area?
Sure, there are writers who write well in spite of, or because of,
ignorance in some areas. I have heard that William Gibson knew next
to nothing about computers when he wrote Neuromancer. But that
is not an argument that such training is not helpful to many, and
it isn't even an argument that he might have written an even better
novel had he more knowledge of the subject.
Can formal training hurt? Sure, if you get a bad teacher or if
you are exposed to the wrong thing at the wrong time. It's an
opportunity, not a guarantee.
billo
LLThrasher
>
> >
> >What's the average education here on misc.writing? How important is
> >formal education to writing?
> >
> A decade and a third at university level study from very impressive
> schools in the northeast that keep asking me for money. Would that they
> had prepared me to earn some. [snipped]
Five years of college, lifetime teaching credential in a state I no
longer live in for a profession I gave up eighteen years ago in favor of
parenthood. Presently working as a low-paid part-time library employee.
One published novel, two forthcoming novels, but they haven't had much
impact on my income. Maybe someday. Actually, I have high hopes for
the book coming out in February. It would make a good movie and there's
nothing like selling movie rights to perk up book sales. All I need is
Brad Pitt for the leading man. He'd get to play four different roles.
Think he'd be interested?
Neil Blenkiron (remove NOSPAM to reply)
March Hare <will...@scs.unr.edu> wrote:
> So here's a question:
>
> What's the average education here on misc.writing? How important is
> formal education to writing?
>
> And to start off, I'm a third-year college student. More and more I'm
> getting the distinctly uncomfortable feeling that every class I take is
> only calcifying my mind a little more. Of course, I may just feel that
> way because the first round of exams is upon me. Whatever.
>
> -Will
FWIW I have six and a half years of post secondary education but no
degree. I spent five of those years training as a Nurse (psych and
general). I no longer work as a nurse. I spent one of those years
training as a youth worker, I only occasionally do youth work. The rest
of the time I spent learning DTP and Small Business Practice, I use both
at least once a day.
Formal education in terms of the mechaniocs of writing can be usefull,
but to me the most usefull thing about education is the way it trains my
mind. Learning how to think, critique, analyse etc.
As an adult first learn a trade so that you can provide for yourself and
your family, then learn what you want to learn. If it's calcifying your
brain, change subjects. One day I may enroll in a Uni course, but only
when I'm ready and when I feel I would be usefull to me.
--
Neil Blenkiron
It is better to create than to be learned;
creating is the true essence of life. -- Reinhold Neibuhur
Andrea Newton
March Hare wrote:
>
> So here's a question:
>
> What's the average education here on misc.writing? How important is
> formal education to writing?
>
Well, I've got my BA in Creative Writing under my belt already, and plan
to go back to get my MFA after my SO finishes his MA/PhD (in history),
but I'd have to say from a writing standpoint I feel I pretty much
wasted $40,000. There wasn't much I learned in college that I couldn't
have gotten from attending workshops.
Of course, I do want to teach college, so I have to get my MFA.
Andi
Lorrill Buyens
rm...@netcom.com (Ron Moskovitz), while summoning a demon, chanted:
> I do not agree that you can learn anything worth knowing by yourself--
>quite the contrary, I think you learn a lot when you're challanged on
>your basic assumptions. When you say, "This is what I think," and
>somebody tears you to shreds on it so you have to defend what you think,
>rather than just say it.
Ah, but I can get that right here on Usenet... ;-)
> A good education teaches you to think critically, which is a valuable
>skill no matter what you chose to do, writing included. Literature
>classes can expose you to books (and ways of looking at them) which you
>would have picked up alone.
I've picked up precisely *two* books which I hadn't already read before
studying them/hearing them mentioned in class - one I liked *because
of* having read it; the other I liked *in spite of* having read it.
As for books I've picked up because of recommendations from family,
friends or acquaintances, the number is at *least* four times as many.
Lorrill (Attempt to force-feed a growing mind and it just might throw up on
you <g>) Buyens
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
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Support the Jayne Hitchcock HELP Fund
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Richard Guziewicz
Just out of curiosity:
Kathie Meyer <lou...@mail.wsu.edu> a écrit dans l'article
<60besp$gc2$3...@leopard.it.wsu.edu>...
SNIP
> I agree. I took a year's worth of women's art
> history last year and loved it. Post-graduation
Is women's art history to be understood as meaning: art history for women,
or art history about artists who are women?
Alison D.
March Hare wrote:
>
> So here's a question:
>
> What's the average education here on misc.writing? How important is
> formal education to writing?
I have a BS in Radio-TV-Film and 6 hours towards an MA in Humanities,
which I abandoned because I wasn't that interested in it, anyway. In
college, I was rebelling against my English-major parents, so I didn't
take any extra literature or writing classes, except for one
screenwriting class I was forced into when all the other classes I
wanted were full. I really regret that now--I think I would have
benefitted from some more study of literature and from regular deadlines
& critiques. I always wanted to be a writer, but thought I didn't need a
degree for that. But because I took so few classes geared towards
writing, I remained scared of writing for years & am just now (9 years
after getting my BS) starting to write in earnest. And I still don't
know what I'm doing!
There are probably other ways to learn these things than through
university education, though. Critique groups and outside writing
classes can be very helpful. Though I do agree with the others who
posted about the importance of learning all kinds of things throughout
your life.
--
Alison D.
a...@sprynet.com
Sunbeam the Deacon
This is the sort of thing that will not confuse anyone but one's
own Doppleganger (or so I prefer to think)....
Which brings up the question:
If one had a Doppleganger who was bent on writing poor but marketable
imitations of your best work, how could you lure him/her into
wasting enough time to enable you to steal a march on them?
Education?
Explanations of Women's Art History? JJ. Ballard and Princess D.?
I wonder......................Pete