Plot that gets stuck
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
I'm hope you relate to this experience:
You're typing away. Your characters are yelling at each other: Bombs
going off, swords clashing, vehicles racing, women and children
screaming. When suddenly...
Nothing. Your characters are frozen. They try to speak, but can only
mumble incoherently. They try to move, but they're just wiggling on the
spot. They have nowhere to go, and no reason to go there.
What do you do?
You try patching in another scene: give it more meat, add another
character... But this is only filling in the back-story. It's not giving
the plot any forward momentum. In desperation you add a dreams-sequence,
a flash-back, drug your protagonist, give him a mortal wound... He
starts begging you to kill him! OK, flash forward: has time given him
perspective, or is that just a way to kill him more slowly?
What do you do when your plot refuses to progress and stalls dead? Half
a dozen uncompleted MS need to know.
--
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
http://www.ratbag.demon.co.uk/anna/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"This is the sort of English up with which I will not put"
Sir Winston Churchill (on E.Gowers "Plain Words")
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Brooks
"Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor" wrote:
> You're typing away. Your characters are yelling at each other: Bombs
> going off, swords clashing, vehicles racing, women and children
> screaming. When suddenly...
>
> Nothing. Your characters are frozen. They try to speak, but can only
> mumble incoherently. They try to move, but they're just wiggling on the
> spot. They have nowhere to go, and no reason to go there.
>
> What do you do?
I do one of two things. Sometimes, if it's a first draft and I want to
push through to a finished length, I just make something happen. I kill
a character or introduce a bizzare, unworkable plot-twist, and write 10
or 20 pages on it just to see what comes out. Sometimes something
workable comes out of it and sometimes I just throw the pages away, but
at least I've forced my characters to move.
The other thing I'll do is get back to basics: Ask yourself what your
theme is, and how your story is illuminating it. Ask yourself what
aspects of your theme haven't been explored, and what your characters
could do to explore that. Y'know... if you're doing a "love conquers
all" sort of thing, have you pitted your Romeo and Juliet against every
physical, mental, supernatural and mundane foe who could oppose their
love? What if one of them changed and became unlovable? Can they be
changed back?
One trap I fall into is writing a scene where I already know how I'm
going to solve the problem posed in it. I've found it's much better
when I'm stuck to back up 5 or 10 pages and ask how I could make things
worse for my hero. Take a previously written predicament in your script
*which you've already solved*, and rewrite it so it's not only unsolved,
but seemingly insoluble. Maybe you've taken your character out of the
frying pan and into the fire too early, and then let him simply step out
of the fire. Put him back in the pan and turn up the heat. Surely your
antagonist has something worse up his sleeve, doesn't he?
Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A schmuck with an Underwood
-- What would Alan Rickman do?
PJ Browning
> You try patching in another scene: give it more meat, add another
> character... But this is only filling in the back-story. It's not giving
> the plot any forward momentum.
Yep.
I find that the best thing to do is to go back a step. Look again at story
and how the scene fits into things. Most of the time when I get hit with the
big frozen scene it's cause I'm trying to do too much at once. Or because the
scene isn't needed but I thought it was a good idea at the time.
Or course most of the time when I was getting stuck, I was also using the
massive brain fart method of writing. You know, the one where you sit down,
turn on the computer and start writing with no real plan. I picked up a copy
of Syd Fields "the screenwriters workbook" one day and, while I don't agree
with all of his rules, I like his method of preplanning. I don't get hit with
brain freeze and dead scenes at much anymore cause I think things out first.
--
PJ
Arcadia Gallery
http://arcadiaprod.crosswinds.net
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
WOW! This is great advice!
>I do one of two things. Sometimes, if it's a first draft and I want to
>push through to a finished length, I just make something happen. I kill
>a character or introduce a bizzare, unworkable plot-twist, and write 10
>or 20 pages on it just to see what comes out. Sometimes something
>workable comes out of it and sometimes I just throw the pages away, but
>at least I've forced my characters to move.
Moving is good, I can see that. Maybe I should worry less about coherent
plots and just do something daft? I know the stories I have written that
really worked were terrible in draft - I had huge great plot
inconsistencies and holes that had to be plugged, but often in
struggling to find an explanation for how Scene A lead to Scene B, I
actually get some good ideas.
>
>The other thing I'll do is get back to basics: Ask yourself what your
>theme is, and how your story is illuminating it.
Theme is something I have great difficulty grasping. Maybe if I could
work out what the theme is, I'd have a better clue of where to take the
plot? I suppose my most common theme is the old traditional, "unexpected
hero" theme. I very much like the idea that people aren't generally
brave until they have to be.
See - just typing that has given me an idea! Why did my hero have to be
brave? What forced him into that situation? I haven't explored that at
all. I've got to whump him a bit more. A lot more. Then see if he can
still walk! <evil cackle>
>Y'know... if you're doing a "love conquers
>all" sort of thing, have you pitted your Romeo and Juliet against every
>physical, mental, supernatural and mundane foe who could oppose their
>love? What if one of them changed and became unlovable? Can they be
>changed back?
No. Next?
Seriously, I'm too much of a cynic to believe a theme like that.
>
>One trap I fall into is writing a scene where I already know how I'm
>going to solve the problem posed in it.
That's my problem with outlining. My other project is trying to figure
out how to write an outline without killing my plot dead.
> I've found it's much better
>when I'm stuck to back up 5 or 10 pages and ask how I could make things
>worse for my hero.
Oh yes [rubs hands gleefully together]
> Take a previously written predicament in your script
>*which you've already solved*, and rewrite it so it's not only unsolved,
>but seemingly insoluble.
Yes, my protagonists did escape rather too easily. They are definitely
not suffering enough.
> Maybe you've taken your character out of the
>frying pan and into the fire too early, and then let him simply step out
>of the fire. Put him back in the pan and turn up the heat. Surely your
>antagonist has something worse up his sleeve, doesn't he?
See, that's another problem. Weak antagonists. Either I make him so bad,
he's caricatured, or he's completely devoid of personality. In my
current story, the antagonists are a faceless organisation. I need to
give it a face.
Thanks for the help!
--
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
http://www.ratbag.demon.co.uk/anna/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Where so many hours have been spent in convincing myself that I am right, is
there not some reason to fear I may be wrong?"
Jane Austen (Sense and Sensibility).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
>Or course most of the time when I was getting stuck, I was also using the
>massive brain fart method of writing. You know, the one where you sit down,
>turn on the computer and start writing with no real plan.
It's the only way I know. I generally do that, get in a mess, scream,
run around the room a few times, take a deep breath and then say to
myself "Right. What the hell is happening?" Then I write a plan.
>I picked up a copy
>of Syd Fields "the screenwriters workbook" one day and, while I don't agree
>with all of his rules, I like his method of preplanning. I don't get hit with
>brain freeze and dead scenes at much anymore cause I think things out first.
I'll have to check that out. I would tend to avoid methods like that
because I do have this annoying habit of planning my plot into
extinction. I don't know why it happens, but it does. I write my
outline, go into a coma and the story is never written. I understand
that quite a few well-known authors share this problem with me, but that
is cold comfort.
Thanks for the suggestions.
chris...@onix.com
<An...@ratbag.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>...You're typing away. Your characters are yelling at each other: Bombs
>going off, swords clashing, vehicles racing, women and children
>screaming. When suddenly...
>
>Nothing. Your characters are frozen. They try to speak, but can only
>mumble incoherently. They try to move, but they're just wiggling on the
>spot. They have nowhere to go, and no reason to go there.
>
>What do you do?...
Anna...
That happens to me constantly.
What I usually do is make several vodka martinis.
But that never seems to help.
There are two things that actually do work for me, though.
Firstly, (and I suspect it's the same with you), my characters DO talk
to me--often, I find them doing or saying things that come as a
complete surprise to me.
But when they stop--and no Frankensteinian galvanic jolts can bring
them to life--I simply drop them for a while and turn to another
script. I'm always writing at least two (sometimes more) screenplays
at the same time.
Working on something else gives my characters time to percolate and
mature, and when I return to them, they're ususally ready to play with
me again.
The other method...just get away from the computer and go on with your
life. I think 90% of my writing is done while driving, cooking,
folding laundry...whatever.
Mulling your screenwriting problem over while doing something else is
a pressure-free situation--you're not staring at that screen with the
last line or direction you've written staring at you mockingly and
defiantly. Sometimes you can solve a problem whilst mowing a lawn that
you can't at your desk.
Sometimes it's subconscious. I'll be watching the tube or walking to
the store when WHAM! My subconscious kicks in and delivers unbidden
that line or plot move that I haven't been able to nail.
I hope that is at least some help.
If not...
...there are always vodka martinis.
Best to you...
--Christopher
Skip Press
"Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor" <An...@ratbag.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Hi Everyone,
>I'm hope you relate to this experience:
>
>You're typing away. Your characters are yelling at each other: Bombs
>going off, swords clashing, vehicles racing, women and children
>screaming. When suddenly...
>
>Nothing. Your characters are frozen. They try to speak, but can only
>mumble incoherently. They try to move, but they're just wiggling on the
>spot. They have nowhere to go, and no reason to go there.
>
>What do you do?
>
>You try patching in another scene: give it more meat, add another
>character... But this is only filling in the back-story. It's not giving
>the plot any forward momentum. In desperation you add a dreams-sequence,
>a flash-back, drug your protagonist, give him a mortal wound... He
>starts begging you to kill him! OK, flash forward: has time given him
>perspective, or is that just a way to kill him more slowly?
>
>What do you do when your plot refuses to progress and stalls dead? Half
>a dozen uncompleted MS need to know.
You're working without a clear sense of structure, sounds like.
--
Disordered nerves and bad digestion are a common cause of backbiting.
-- Ann Landers
All the best,
Skip Press, the Duke of URL
Hollywood and Somewhat Important News at
http://home.earthlink.net/~skippress/
PJ Browning
> Theme is something I have great difficulty grasping. Maybe if I could
> work out what the theme is, I'd have a better clue of where to take the
> plot? I suppose my most common theme is the old traditional, "unexpected
> hero" theme. I very much like the idea that people aren't generally
> brave until they have to be.
there are major arguments about theme/premise/whatever you want to call it. I
think of the theme as the question that I want to answer. for example, I'm
working on new script at the moment. The question that I am working on is "What
is the definition of happiness?" In other words, is happiness an absolute thing
or is it flexible. Can someone be happy living a life that isn't a husband/wife,
$50K a year job, house with a white picket fence, two kids (a boy and a girl of
course), a dog, a cat and a goldfish? And what would it take for our 'hero' to
figure out the answer for herself. Will she realize it on her own, or will it
take someone giving her a kick in the pants and daring her to figure it out.
--
PJ
Arcadia Gallery
http://arcadiaprod.crosswinds.net
Video List
http://arcadiaprod.crosswinds.net/list/index.html
PJ Browning
> I'll have to check that out. I would tend to avoid methods like that
> because I do have this annoying habit of planning my plot into
> extinction. I don't know why it happens, but it does.
here's what I do.
I pick my question/theme (see my earlier post). Then I pick the situation I'm
going to search for the answer in.
Next I get to know my characters. I write bios of each of the main characters
(usually ab 3-5 folks). I follow this with a brief outline of the beginning, end,
climax. Follow this with a treatment version of the story (if I get an
inspiration for a chunk of dialogue, then I go ahead and toss it in). Then I read
over all of it and dig into that first draft. follow this with some feedback from
my team of fellow writers and so on
--
PJ
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
Press <skip...@mac.com> writes
>You're working without a clear sense of structure, sounds like.
Probably, but that doesn't really help. What is structure without a
plot? Actually, what is structure period? And how does one develop a
"sense" of it?
potato
pages of new material, a first act, complete with all that entails. I
like writing cold, with no predetermined structure sometimes, because
you gets them nice morsels from the subconscious. However, that raw
inspiration rarely continues on the same piece (writing cold) if I put
it down and come back a couple days later. So, I either file it away,
or, as I did recently, took that primal chunk of writing and used it as
a jumping off point to build a script. The tried and true notecards
taped all over my wall method. Usually there is some sort of theme in
there that maybe even i didn't realize at first glance, which can be
built into something bigger. Then, once your baby is all nice and mapped
out, the hard part is sitting yourself in the chair and pounding it all out.
Also, there's a great saying by one of the old time hollywood writers, I
can't remember who, that says -
"When all else fails, have two men come through the door with guns in
their fists."
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor wrote:
Adam Fulford
"potato" wrote...
> Also, there's a great saying by one of the old time hollywood writers, I
> can't remember who, that says -
> "When all else fails, have two men come through the door with guns in
> their fists."
>
>
>
Was that W. C. Martell, or maybe Raymond Chandler?
potato
Harb7707
>
>Nothing. Your characters are frozen. They try to speak, but can only
>mumble incoherently. They try to move, but they're just wiggling on the
>spot. They have nowhere to go, and no reason to go there.
>
>What do you do?
Try a plot.
They work for that kind of stuff.
H.
wcmartell
> > "When all else fails, have two men come through the door with guns in
> > their fists."
>
> Was that W. C. Martell, or maybe Raymond Chandler?
Chandler - probably in THE SIMPLE ART OF MURDER, but I'm too lazy to
look it up.
If you think about it, the advice is really - when things seem to get
dull, add conflict. I don't know if I'd keep having strangers with
guns come through the door, but I'd certainly look at the conflict
within the scene and try to find a way to intensify it - or get out of
that scene and into a scene that HAS conflict.
THE BIG SLEEP (film) has that great scene where people keep
interupting by coming through the door with guns and Marlowe keeps
taking the guns away from them. When there's another knock, Brody goes
to answer, thinking it's Carmen coming back for her gun... BLAM! BLAM!
(great splintering door to show us the violence of being shot). It's
Giger's boyfriend (can't remember his name) who hasn't had his guns
removed, yet.
I don't remember how the scene plays in the book, it's been a while
since I read it and I can never remember what's in the novels and
what's in the novelettes (like KILLER IN THE RAIN) that the novels
were reformed from.
wcmartell
> What do you do when your plot refuses to progress and stalls dead? Half
> a dozen uncompleted MS need to know.
Sounds like you're driving without a map.
It helps to know where you're going and what route provides the best
scenery before you get in the automobile. That way you won't hit any
dead ends, you won't drive for 60 pages and find out you aren't going
anywhere, or are going in the wrong direction.
Start with your character - what is the one thing they would never do?
The one decision they would never want to make?
Okay - find a story where they are plunged into a situation where they
must make that decision. (clue: what they decide will give you a good
idea of your theme). Now come up with about a dozen scenes where they
are pushed against the wall and forced to make that decision... and
find a way for them to duck the decision in a way that just makes
things worse. (conflict has to escalate). Each time they duck the
decision, things get worse and they pay an emotional price - these are
DRAMATIC scenes that illustrate the difficulties your protagonist has
in making that decision. Eventually things get so bad, that they must
make the decision they never wanted to make - they must resolve the
problem because it will destroy them if they duck it again. That's
your biggest dramatic scene - and it leads to the resolution of the
problem and the scene where people all hug or get a medal or kiss or
all of the above.
Don't be afraid of preplanning - writing a script is not for your
entertainment, it's for the film audience's entertainment. If you know
what happens next that's not a bad thing... because you can
concentrate on finding an interesting WAY for the event to happen.
Find an unexpected way for your planned scene to work.
Think of it as a painting. The artist begins with a sketch to get an
idea of what he's going to paint. That's the outline. When they
finally go to the oils & brush, they know what they will be painting,
so they can concentrate on the colors and shadings and brushstrokes.
There are two creative steps involved - the sketch and painting. It's
NOT a paint by number - there are no numbers. No one is telling you
what shade of blue to use, or how to apply the paint, or how that blue
blends with the elements around it. Those things happen when you are
writing.
Okay - I've now mixed driving and painting metaphors... I should have
figured out what my plan for this post was before I started writing
it!
Basic structure tip:
http://www.scriptsecrets.net/tips/tip238.htm
- Bill
Free Script Tips:
http://www.scriptsecrets.net
Dena Jo
> he's caricatured, or he's completely devoid of personality.
I have the exact opposite problem. My bad guys usually end up too shaded,
and I'm continually resisting the urge to reform them as my story
progresses. I also have to work really hard at making my main character at
least *as interesting* as the bad guy. The bad guys seem to be so much
easier to write.
--
Dena Jo
Geoff Alexander
news:dpbf4AAh...@ratbag.demon.co.uk...
> Hi Everyone,
> I'm hope you relate to this experience:
>
> You're typing away. Your characters are yelling at each other: Bombs
> going off, swords clashing, vehicles racing, women and children
> screaming. When suddenly...
>
> Nothing. Your characters are frozen. They try to speak, but can only
> mumble incoherently. They try to move, but they're just wiggling on the
> spot. They have nowhere to go, and no reason to go there.
>
> What do you do?
I look at my outline. Seriously. From what you've written here, I get
the feeling that you don't do much outlining. I do a ton, in fact, I
know
everything that's going to happen before I ever start writing. You say
that you don't want to outline the plot to death, but, I don't think
that
the one follows the other. When I have a solid storyline in place it
frees
me to give voice to the characters as I'm writing, and to worry about
what really makes
a script good - unforgettable character moments.
Geoff
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Skip Press
"Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor" <An...@ratbag.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <skippress-77D14...@nnrp04.earthlink.net>, Skip
>Press <skip...@mac.com> writes
>>You're working without a clear sense of structure, sounds like.
>
>Probably, but that doesn't really help. What is structure without a
>plot? Actually, what is structure period? And how does one develop a
>"sense" of it?
You read a bunch of books, or you hang out with people who know it, or
you take courses from people who know it, AND you watch a whole lot of
movies, preferably in the theater to note people's reactions, and you
write a lot. Then when you sell something, or get someone who knows what
they're doing to help you, you learn rewriting, and it all becomes
pretty darn clear after a while.
--
Writing books is the closest men ever come to childbearing.
-- Norman Mailer
ActiveVerb
with a gun and figure out later why they're there.
new...@virtual.com
<An...@ratbag.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <skippress-77D14...@nnrp04.earthlink.net>, Skip
>Press <skip...@mac.com> writes
>>You're working without a clear sense of structure, sounds like.
>
>Probably, but that doesn't really help. What is structure without a
>plot? Actually, what is structure period? And how does one develop a
>"sense" of it?
The most basic definition of screenwriting structure would probably be
something like this:
- Inciting incident (The thing that kicks your story into high gear
for your Protagonist)
- Progressive complications (in scenes as well as in acts)
- Crisis (in scenes as well as in acts)
- Climax (in scenes as well as in acts)
- Resolution (This is the point where the audience can finally see
how it all wrapped up great, when it never looked as if it ever
could.)
Doug
"Life is a river. If you ain't gettin' your feet
wet, you ain't playin' hard enough."
Harb7707
>See - just typing that has given me an idea! Why did my hero have to be
>brave? What forced him into that situation? I haven't explored that at
>all. I've got to whump him a bit more. A lot more. Then see if he can
>still walk! <evil cackle>
My God, you're insane. lol
H.
Harb7707
>You're working without a clear sense of structure, sounds like.
Gee... ya think? lol
H.
Harb7707
>You read a bunch of books, or you hang out with people who know it, or
>you take courses from people who know it, AND you watch a whole lot of
>movies, preferably in the theater to note people's reactions, and you
>write a lot. Then when you sell something, or get someone who knows what
>they're doing to help you, you learn rewriting, and it all becomes
>pretty darn clear after a while.
I have not seen the ritual work any different.
H.
Harb7707
>Probably, but that doesn't really help. What is structure without a
>plot? Actually, what is structure period? And how does one develop a
>"sense" of it?
The basis of plot is unified action.
Cause and effect.
It drives every element of the screenplay down to the atom.
I guarantee, if you don't play it that way, your audience will
be wishing they were off betting with drunken spics at a cockfight.
Now... go write that great screenplay of yours, and quit bustin' balls.
H.
Harb7707
>I look at my outline. Seriously. From what you've written here, I get
>the feeling that you don't do much outlining. I do a ton, in fact, I
>know everything that's going to happen before I ever start writing. You say
>that you don't want to outline the plot to death, but, I don't think
>that the one follows the other. When I have a solid storyline in place it
>frees me to give voice to the characters as I'm writing, and to worry about
>what really makes a script good - unforgettable character moments.
I agree with this.
If one succeeds in outlining a plot to death, it probably deserves to die.
H.
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
>"Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor" <An...@ratbag.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:<dpbf4AAh...@ratbag.demon.co.uk>...
>
>> What do you do when your plot refuses to progress and stalls dead? Half
>> a dozen uncompleted MS need to know.
>
>Sounds like you're driving without a map.
OK, let's scotch this rumour for a start. I *do* always have an outline,
despite the fact that, as I say, it seems to make the problem *worse*,
not better.
The kind of plot holes I get myself into occur *in the outline*, before
I get anywhere near writing it up. Sometimes, I write up major scenes
anyway, just to see if the process brings up any inspiration. Sometimes
it does, sometimes it doesn't. Mostly, I tell the story to myself, in my
head and write the outline as I go along.
Then again, John Braine the novelist says he always writes the entire
story out in draft (as one long ramble) and then re-reads it several
times to find a plot. *Then* he outlines. Since his first ever novel was
an award-winning, best-seller (and excellent screenplay), I would hate
to argue with the guy! I'm sure there are as many ways of achieving the
same goal as there are writers and it is probably a bad idea to assume
that all writers can work the same way.
I'm currently converting a short-story into a screenplay. Since the
short story is written, I have skipped the outline. However, even as a
short story, I felt it didn't have enough plot and now that several
scenes are written, I'm convinced. The exercise has, at least, revealed
a problem in my short-story that I hadn't been able to see before. So,
having written up quite a bit in draft/long outline format, I need to go
back and work out where it's going wrong.
>It helps to know where you're going and what route provides the best
>scenery before you get in the automobile. That way you won't hit any
>dead ends, you won't drive for 60 pages and find out you aren't going
>anywhere, or are going in the wrong direction.
OTOH, it's all good writing practice and you might write 60 pages that
can be used in something else.
>
>Start with your character - what is the one thing they would never do?
>The one decision they would never want to make?
Asking questions about my characters does seem a good move - thanks for
the suggestions. I already know what questions to ask.
>
>Okay - find a story where they are plunged into a situation where they
>must make that decision. (clue: what they decide will give you a good
>idea of your theme). Now come up with about a dozen scenes where they
>are pushed against the wall and forced to make that decision... and
>find a way for them to duck the decision in a way that just makes
>things worse. (conflict has to escalate). Each time they duck the
>decision, things get worse and they pay an emotional price - these are
>DRAMATIC scenes that illustrate the difficulties your protagonist has
>in making that decision. Eventually things get so bad, that they must
>make the decision they never wanted to make - they must resolve the
>problem because it will destroy them if they duck it again. That's
>your biggest dramatic scene - and it leads to the resolution of the
>problem and the scene where people all hug or get a medal or kiss or
>all of the above.
Sounds great! On the other hand, I wonder if this is just how *your*
stories always go? I can think of a dozen movies where this wasn't the
case.
>
>Don't be afraid of preplanning - writing a script is not for your
>entertainment, it's for the film audience's entertainment.
All story-telling is for an audience.
>Think of it as a painting. The artist begins with a sketch to get an
>idea of what he's going to paint. That's the outline. When they
>finally go to the oils & brush, they know what they will be painting,
>so they can concentrate on the colors and shadings and brushstrokes.
Actually, a lot of modern art is trying to get away from that scenario.
Personally, I sketch in oil directly onto the canvas. The beauty of oil-
painting is that you can try something, and if it doesn't work, you can
paint over it. See, not meaning to stretch your analogy, but there isn't
a standard method to producing an oil-painting either.
>Okay - I've now mixed driving and painting metaphors... I should have
>figured out what my plan for this post was before I started writing
>it!
It's all creativity. Besides, that's just how my brain works - mixing
metaphors until I've constructed an entirely different universe.
Thanks for sharing your ideas.
--
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
http://www.ratbag.demon.co.uk/anna/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
>The most basic definition of screenwriting structure would probably be
>something like this:
Mine was a rhetorical question, but thanks anyway.
>
>- Inciting incident (The thing that kicks your story into high gear
>for your Protagonist)
>
>- Progressive complications (in scenes as well as in acts)
>
>- Crisis (in scenes as well as in acts)
>
>- Climax (in scenes as well as in acts)
>
>- Resolution (This is the point where the audience can finally see
>how it all wrapped up great, when it never looked as if it ever
>could.)
I've done a little bit of film criticism and I've been a literature buff
for as long as I can remember so I recognise all of this. However, can I
write to this like a kind of formula? I'm not sure.
Another posted used a painting analogy. I will use it too. When some
artists begin to paint, they sketch out what they intend to draw and
then they paint it, logically and meticulously. Some even go so far as
to project a photograph onto the canvas and paint that! (David Shepherd
being one notable example. I do not consider him a great artist).
But other artists are inspired by colour, or brush-stroke, or the light
on the canvas, and will create a work simply by experiment. Sometimes
hundreds of experiments, littering their studio with ideas that didn't
work. But eventually, something just "clicks". He probably couldn't tell
you why something worked, and why something didn't. He just goes by gut-
feel. Probably, this "something" will effectively be painted a dozen
times, and each time the artist is a little clearer about what he wants
to say. In the end, he knows exactly what he wants to say, and says it.
I can look at a guideline like the above and see that this is why a
piece worked or not. If it's my own writing, and it hasn't worked, it
may be useful to use as a check-list, but if I start with the check-
list, my imagination takes a hike.
Incidently, I used to be a c programmer. I hated outlines in that as
well, and yet I did pretty well. I assume I have some kind of innate
sense of structure in my head, since it always ended up looking better
planned than some of the guys who'd done it the "proper" way. When I
write non-fiction articles, I always have what I call my "punch line" in
my head, from the first line and a list of points I want to make. And
yet if I write them down as a list too early in the process, it kills my
article. It is as if the ideas have to be allowed to move and writing
them down traps them.
It appears I'm the same when writing fiction. I know where my characters
are going, and I have a clear idea about several high points they must
reach in the story, but as soon as I write down the outline, the story
dies a little. I am hoping this is just the way I'm writing outlines,
and I'm getting some fantastic ideas and suggestions from this group.
Thank you for this information because it is a lot clearer than most of
the books I've looked at. I can use simple tips like this.
P.S. I write 1600 words yesterday, which is the most fiction I've
written in 6 months. I've also downloaded a screen-writing program
(shareware) which is perfectly adequate for a beginner, so I'm feeling
pretty good.
--
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
http://www.ratbag.demon.co.uk/anna/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
PJ Browning
> The kind of plot holes I get myself into occur *in the outline*, before
> I get anywhere near writing it up.
and that is a bad thing why??
> Then again, John Braine the novelist says he always writes the entire
> story out in draft (as one long ramble) and then re-reads it several
> times to find a plot. *Then* he outlines. Since his first ever novel was
> an award-winning, best-seller (and excellent screenplay), I would hate
> to argue with the guy!
He is an exception to the rules. Don't expect things to work out the same for
you or for anyone else (Hell, Syd Field is a well respected member of our
community especially as a teacher of screenwriting and he has sworn off his old
style of writing--which was to just jump in and dump a bunch of stuff on paper
to rewrite and analyze afterwards--for a more methodical and logical approach)
> Sounds great! On the other hand, I wonder if this is just how *your*
> stories always go? I can think of a dozen movies where this wasn't the
> case.
are you so sure about that?
> >Don't be afraid of preplanning - writing a script is not for your
> >entertainment, it's for the film audience's entertainment.
>
> All story-telling is for an audience.
yes and like it or not, our first audience are the folks with the money. And
they want clear characters and conflict driven stories with a nice smooth flow.
And even those stories that seem illogical have a kind of logic to them
Dena Jo
> The kind of plot holes I get myself into occur *in the outline*, before
> I get anywhere near writing it up. Sometimes, I write up major scenes
> anyway, just to see if the process brings up any inspiration. Sometimes
> it does, sometimes it doesn't. Mostly, I tell the story to myself, in my
> head and write the outline as I go along.
If you're getting stuck in the outline stage itself, it seems to me you're
not ready to write that screenplay. Go work on something else and relegate
the first script back to the strictly thinking stage. I find long solitary
freeway drives in relatively light traffic to be enormously inspiring. Of
course, I live in Southern California, where one can drive for two hours and
still be in Southern California. If you tried this in New England, you
might go through four states.
> Then again, John Braine the novelist says he always writes the entire
> story out in draft (as one long ramble) and then re-reads it several
> times to find a plot. *Then* he outlines.
> <snip>
> I'm currently converting a short-story into a screenplay. Since the
> short story is written, I have skipped the outline.
Since the short story is written, you have a basis concept for your
screenplay and nothing more.
I get the impression from you -- and correct if I'm wrong, as I'm sure
you'll do -- that you're approaching writing your screenplay pretty much the
same way you've approached writing other genres -- short stories, novels,
whatever. But writing a screenplay is completely different altogether.
It's probably the most concentrated and structured form of storytelling
you'll ever attempt. In another recent thread, people were discussing how
many words comprise an average screenplay, and it was something like 20,000.
A friend of mine checked the word counts in his screenplays. One of them
was as low as 16,000. That's not a whole lot of words to tell your entire
story from beginning to end, and it seems to be getting shorter every day.
People are wanting shorter scripts. Triple-spacing before slug lines.
Double spacing after four lines of action. Calls for more and more white
stuff on the page. There's very little room for meandering. You have to go
from Point A to Point B. You have to be single-minded about getting there.
Your story has to be always heading in that direction.
Bill's right when he says you need a roadmap. This is my approach: Before
I ever start writing, I know how my story ends, how Acts 1 and 2 end, the
midpoint of my story and/or two or three significant Act 2 complications.
The rest falls into place as I write. But by knowing these few important
things in advance, I not only know where I'm going, but I have a good idea
how I want to get there. Do I ever take a detour? Sure. And sometimes I
find myself taking a different route altogether. I get into situations
where I want to go this way, my characters want to go that way. I've
learned not to argue with my characters. They always win. (There have been
a few occasions where I've been able to compromise with them, but that
hasn't happened very often.) But at any given point, I always know where my
story's headed and how I'm gonna get there, even though I've changed the
route.
If you know all these things before you start writing and you're still
getting stuck, then I've misunderstood your posts and I'm not understanding
exactly what the problem is that you're encountering.
--
Dena Jo
johncoot
reverse osmosis is the answer anna .
back up and take a look.
oh thats better, you looked like francis frobisher up close,but on
secong glance it is apparent your not,your francis drake.
with that the gitchee manitou waved his sock puppet over the creature,
and it began to undress from its human form.
"Come on Billy, You can do it !" urged geezisjack .It had been some
years since he used his hocus pocus, having been told by his auntie
that it was inappropriate.
The skin fell off like a sunday suit, revealing a beautiful grizzly
bear hiding under all of those ugly social foibles.
She turned to her excited host,and crushed his skull in her powerful
jaws!
Billy the Kid revisited.
Now isn't that better?
PJ Browning
> I get into situations
> where I want to go this way, my characters want to go that way. I've
> learned not to argue with my characters. They always win. (There have been
> a few occasions where I've been able to compromise with them, but that
> hasn't happened very often.) But at any given point, I always know where my
> story's headed and how I'm gonna get there, even though I've changed the
> route.
I find that happens to me also. Right now, I'm writing up a treatment version
of my latest script. And already, i'm seeing things that aren't going to work.
Mostly it's in little things, but there are a couple of big details that have
changed. They don't change the end of the story, just part of the path to it.
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
>> The kind of plot holes I get myself into occur *in the outline*, before
>> I get anywhere near writing it up. Sometimes, I write up major scenes
>> anyway, just to see if the process brings up any inspiration. Sometimes
>> it does, sometimes it doesn't. Mostly, I tell the story to myself, in my
>> head and write the outline as I go along.
>
>If you're getting stuck in the outline stage itself, it seems to me you're
>not ready to write that screenplay.
I'm not writing an actual, fully-fledged screenplay yet. I'm still
learning and experimenting with the form.
I have to write a short piece for my college course, however, which
might end up as a fully-fledged screenplay. The exercise has several
phases and starts with a thoroughly written outline, character outlines,
description of theme etc. I have to send them all in before I get to
start on the screenplay itself.
> Go work on something else and relegate
>the first script back to the strictly thinking stage. I find long solitary
>freeway drives in relatively light traffic to be enormously inspiring.
I live in the sound of England. Unless you've visited this part of the
world, you might not realise how impractical that advice is. I'd
probably run out of land! (also, the concept of "light traffic" in the
South of England isn't one I'm familiar with)
Fortunately, I have to walk miles and that is often when I get my best
ideas.
>> I'm currently converting a short-story into a screenplay. Since the
>> short story is written, I have skipped the outline.
>
>Since the short story is written, you have a basis concept for your
>screenplay and nothing more.
So I'm finding out.
>
>I get the impression from you -- and correct if I'm wrong, as I'm sure
>you'll do -- that you're approaching writing your screenplay pretty much the
>same way you've approached writing other genres -- short stories, novels,
>whatever.
True.
> But writing a screenplay is completely different altogether.
It is, which is why I'm having this discussion!
>It's probably the most concentrated and structured form of storytelling
>you'll ever attempt. In another recent thread, people were discussing how
>many words comprise an average screenplay, and it was something like 20,000.
>A friend of mine checked the word counts in his screenplays. One of them
>was as low as 16,000.
Does that include action, background description etc.?
>There's very little room for meandering. You have to go
>from Point A to Point B. You have to be single-minded about getting there.
>Your story has to be always heading in that direction.
I don't think meandering around a theme has ever been my style.
>
>Bill's right when he says you need a roadmap.
I don't doubt that. I'm just not sure how *I* do roadmaps yet.
> This is my approach: Before
>I ever start writing, I know how my story ends, how Acts 1 and 2 end, the
>midpoint of my story and/or two or three significant Act 2 complications.
{snip}
>But at any given point, I always know where my
>story's headed and how I'm gonna get there, even though I've changed the
>route.
This is good advice that I've heard from several sources.
>
>If you know all these things before you start writing and you're still
>getting stuck, then I've misunderstood your posts and I'm not understanding
>exactly what the problem is that you're encountering.
Part of it is that I am talking generally here, and not about a specific
piece of work. I'm also anticipating problems that may not have actually
happened yet. It's how I learn - I am not a global thinker. I have to
learn all the tiny little details, one by one, until I have sufficient
to join them all up into a whole.
Once I have in my mind the whole concept of "Writing a Screenplay", I
will write a screenplay. In the meantime, I'm just practising.
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
>"Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor" wrote:
>
>> The kind of plot holes I get myself into occur *in the outline*, before
>> I get anywhere near writing it up.
>
>and that is a bad thing why??
Not a bad thing, just one of those things you have to get through to
write a story. And I hate it when I'm steaming ahead and get stuck. It's
invariably a temporary condition, but it's one of the things I hate
about writing.
The other thing I hate is when you read through your MS and realise you
made a fundamental and stupid plot error in Scene 1 that renders the
whole rest of you MS as a piece of tosh. Other than that, I love
writing.
>
>> Then again, John Braine the novelist says he always writes the entire
>> story out in draft (as one long ramble) and then re-reads it several
>> times to find a plot. *Then* he outlines. Since his first ever novel was
>> an award-winning, best-seller (and excellent screenplay), I would hate
>> to argue with the guy!
>
>He is an exception to the rules. Don't expect things to work out the same for
>you or for anyone else
I tried his method from "How to Write a Novel" and the success of it is
demonstrated by the fact that my novel hasn't got very far.
>(Hell, Syd Field is a well respected member of our
>community especially as a teacher of screenwriting and he has sworn off his old
>style of writing--which was to just jump in and dump a bunch of stuff on paper
>to rewrite and analyze afterwards--for a more methodical and logical approach)
I've just ordered one of his books, due to recommendations on this
group. I hope it's interesting, but I suspect it's a good idea to take a
poll of a dozen writer's techniques. That way, I might hit upon my own
technique more quickly than otherwise. (I did have a cunning plan to
write a book on how to write fiction - there seems to be a lot more
money in that than actually writing fiction).
>
>> Sounds great! On the other hand, I wonder if this is just how *your*
>> stories always go? I can think of a dozen movies where this wasn't the
>> case.
>
>are you so sure about that?
Have you seen "Naked Lunch"? "Brazil"?, "Monty Python and the Holy
Grail"? (OK, so the last one is nearly a normal movie, but it eventually
degenerates so thoroughly, the credits become part of the comedy. Which
is hardly standard).
>> All story-telling is for an audience.
>
>yes and like it or not, our first audience are the folks with the money. And
>they want clear characters and conflict driven stories with a nice smooth flow.
>And even those stories that seem illogical have a kind of logic to them
Actually, being honest here, I *like* corny, formulaic stories that fit
the standard pattern. I even like slushy, romantic sub-plots with happy
endings and horror movies where all the good guys survive. I was
thinking perhaps it's best to write the stuff I personally like -
there's bound to be someone out there that likes the same (isn't
there?).
So, after all this, perhaps I'll just stick to the formula.
--
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
http://www.ratbag.demon.co.uk/anna/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Words are only as valid as the mind that chooses them, so the essence of all
prose is a form of deception"
from "The Affirmation" by Christopher Priest
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
PJ Browning
> Fortunately, I have to walk miles and that is often when I get my best
> ideas.
>
kill two birds with one stone. get your daily physical and (with luck) mental
exercise
> >many words comprise an average screenplay, and it was something like 20,000.
> >A friend of mine checked the word counts in his screenplays. One of them
> >was as low as 16,000.
>
> Does that include action, background description etc.?
yes. note that action, descript etc is very scant in sceneplays. What the
characters do (in terms of 'stage business') is the job of the actor and
director to decide. not the screenwriter. and how things look is the job of the
art director etc. not the screenwriter. Your script will have every little in
it that isn't dialogue. Look at some scripts and you'll see what I mean.
Instead of:
Russell's office was large and airy. There were literally dozens of windows. His
desk sat in front of a wall of glass, blah blah.
You have
INT. Russell's Office. Day
Russell sits at a desk in front of a large window that dominates the wall.
and you jump right into the action.
Russell
Have a seat.
Anna
Thank you
(you don't say anything about Anna actually sitting. it's implied in the
dialogue)
> Part of it is that I am talking generally here, and not about a specific
> piece of work. I'm also anticipating problems that may not have actually
> happened yet.
Don't . cause you won't be able to. what you think will be a problem will be no
problem at all. and what you think will be easy as pie will be the true problem.
Also, the only way to learn how to write a screenplay is to do it. Pick a
method, find an idea and go for it. then when you get the first draft finished,
find some fellow writers to read it. don't just ask your friends and family to
do it. first off, they won't want to hurt your feelings. second, unless they are
screenwriters, they won't look for the right things. there are several of us in
this group that are happy to help fellow writers. just ask.
--
PJ
Arcadia Gallery
http://arcadiaprod.crosswinds.net
Video List
http://arcadiaprod.crosswinds.net/list/index.html
Paulo Joe Jingy
"Wild Rice <>" wrote:
> On 02 Mar 2002 07:45:27 GMT, harb...@aol.com (Harb7707) wrote:
>
> (Edited text, for focus)
>
> >t drives every element of the screenplay down to the atom.
> >I guarantee, if you don't play it that way, your audience will
> >be wishing they were off betting with drunken spics at a cockfight.
>
> "Drunken Spics"? Is this some sort of racist dialogue that floats to
> the surface inside the mind of Harp7707
>
> Wild Rice
What mind?
new...@virtual.com
wrote:
>On 02 Mar 2002 07:45:27 GMT, harb...@aol.com (Harb7707) wrote:
>
> (Edited text, for focus)
>
>>t drives every element of the screenplay down to the atom.
>>I guarantee, if you don't play it that way, your audience will
>>be wishing they were off betting with drunken spics at a cockfight.
>
>"Drunken Spics"? Is this some sort of racist dialogue that floats to
>the surface inside the mind of Harp7707
>
>Wild Rice
Ah, he's just pissin' his pants in public again. The guy needs a
diaper.
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
thank you so much for your kindness in helping me learn this stuff. It's
truly amazing.
>yes. note that action, descript etc is very scant in sceneplays. What the
>characters do (in terms of 'stage business') is the job of the actor and
>director to decide. not the screenwriter. and how things look is the job of the
>art director etc. not the screenwriter. Your script will have every little in
>it that isn't dialogue. Look at some scripts and you'll see what I mean.
OK, here's a couple of lines from The Matrix. It seems to me that the
action is more than simply describing the bare bones of the scene:
[In case you are not familiar with the story, the character Trinity is
talking to the hero, Neo about the nature of reality]
*********
TRINITY
He told me that no one should look for
an answer unless they have to because
once you see it, everything changes.
Your life and world you live in will
never be the same. It's as if you wake
up in the morning and the sky is
falling.
There is a hypnotic quality to her voice and Neo feels the words like a
drug, seeping into him.
TRINITY
The truth is out there, Neo. It's
looking for you and it will fine you.
If you want it to.
She takes hold of him with her eyes.
*************
Now see, those two lines of action seem to be written in a very lyrical
style, more like a novel than what I would imagine to be action in a
script.
Before reading a few scripts, I might have written those lines as:
Trinity speaks hypnotically. Neo reacts as if he is being drugged.
and
She looks directly at him.
Which of course, is a lot less pleasant to read and not exactly poetic,
but I seem to have received the impression that anything more is doing
the director's job for him; that action has to be bald. Do writers write
stuff like this because they are writers, and therefore tend to think in
a rather poetic way, because actors and directors are much happier
reading something that reads like a proper story (rather than a computer
program), or because this style actually gives more information?
It occurs to me that these action lines actually allow for
interpretation more than bald descriptions of actions, basically because
they are more "fuzzy"?
>
>Instead of:
>
>Russell's office was large and airy. There were literally dozens of windows. His
>desk sat in front of a wall of glass, blah blah.
>
>You have
>
>INT. Russell's Office. Day
>
>Russell sits at a desk in front of a large window that dominates the wall.
Would it be acceptable to write something like:
Russell sits at a desk, bathed in light, in front of a window so large,
it is as if he is surrounded in glass.
? (this is just off the top of my head, so excuse the over-the-top
prose)
>and you jump right into the action.
>
> Russell
> Have a seat.
>
> Anna
> Thank you
>
>(you don't say anything about Anna actually sitting. it's implied in the
>dialogue)
That is the same for novel and short-story writing. Never say anything
obvious (and never say "obviously" because it may not be and if it is,
you shouldn't need to point that fact out).
>I'm also anticipating problems that may not have actually
>> happened yet.
>
>Don't . cause you won't be able to. what you think will be a problem will be no
>problem at all. and what you think will be easy as pie will be the true problem.
Story of my life.
>Also, the only way to learn how to write a screenplay is to do it.
I'm working on a couple of ideas just now - each time someone has a
suggestion, I'm trying it out to see if it works. I have a short play in
draft form (dialogue only - it's for a college exercise), a science-
fiction screenplay (largely in outline form at present, but definitely
shaping up), a short-story I'm converting into a screenplay (back to the
drawing board with that one because it's turned out to have insufficient
plot) and I am working on a longer play for college, as another part of
my assignment (I'm still scouting around for ideas on that one). I took
the advice about working on more than one thing at once - I think that's
*really* good advice for me.
Incidentally, can anyone answer a science-fiction question: How much do
I have to worry about the physical appearance of backgrounds/aliens
(from a technical POV)? I have a 4-fingered alien (crucial plot point)
but suddenly I realised that that would be very difficult (very
expensive) to do in CGI and may be impossible.
>Pick a
>method, find an idea and go for it. then when you get the first draft finished,
>find some fellow writers to read it.
{snip}
>there are several of us in
>this group that are happy to help fellow writers. just ask.
I won't hesitate to ask for some guidance when I get to that point.
Thank you so much.
--
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
http://www.ratbag.demon.co.uk/anna/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
>You read a bunch of books, or you hang out with people who know it, or
>you take courses from people who know it, AND you watch a whole lot of
>movies, preferably in the theater to note people's reactions, and you
>write a lot. Then when you sell something, or get someone who knows what
>they're doing to help you, you learn rewriting, and it all becomes
>pretty darn clear after a while.
>
--
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
http://www.ratbag.demon.co.uk/anna/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sir Winston Churchill (on E.Gowers "Plain Words")
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
PJ Browning
> It occurs to me that these action lines actually allow for
> interpretation more than bald descriptions of actions, basically because
> they are more "fuzzy"?
now you are thinking like a screenwriter. the concrete details are left the actors,
directors. You just give them a nudge in the right direction.
> I have a 4-fingered alien (crucial plot point)
> but suddenly I realised that that would be very difficult (very
> expensive) to do in CGI and may be impossible.
money isn't your issue. You tell the story. let the producer deal with money issues
(it's part of the job). Remember what I said before about making problems where
there isn't one. Unless you are an expert in how much CGI costs (and what the
alternatives are) then you don't know how expensive it could be. I didn't worry
about costs when I blew up the top of a skyscraper.
--
PJ
potato
Jacques E. Bouchard
> I live in the sound of England. Unless you've visited this part of the
> world, you might not realise how impractical that advice is. I'd
> probably run out of land! (also, the concept of "light traffic" in the
> South of England isn't one I'm familiar with)
>
> Fortunately, I have to walk miles and that is often when I get my best
> ideas.
Ah, walking. The lost mode of transportation. That and bicycling are
two that I re-discovered after moving back to Canada from Los Angeles.
Wanna see a movie? It's a 30-minute walk to the theater. Grocery
shopping? I go to the market that's a bit further away. Ditto when going
out for coffee to wrestle a writing block at two in the morning: the laptop
goes in a bag, and on my way to the Canadian version of the all-night
Starbuck's I get to see a completely different aspect of the city. My
favourite walk is coming home from a visit to my brother's and taking the
bridge that spans the St-Lawrence river.
A brisk, energetic walk is a great opportunity for reflection, and
I'll return not only with new inspiration, but with added physical benefits
to boot. I read somewhere that a one-hour brisk walk is more beneficial
than a one-hour vigorous bike ride, because of the way your metabolism
responds to exertion in the long run.
Of course, the muttering to yourself and gesticulating gets you some
strange looks, but we're writers, we're supposed to be eccentric.
jaybee
Harb7707
>>Don't be afraid of preplanning - writing a script is not for your
>>entertainment, it's for the film audience's entertainment.
>
>All story-telling is for an audience.
Anna, I think you're missing the point here.
People here are trying to tell you in a polite way that
you're a boorish, verbose limey.
Is that clear, dear?
H.
Harb7707
>It appears I'm the same when writing fiction. I know where my characters
>are going, and I have a clear idea about several high points they must
>reach in the story, but as soon as I write down the outline, the story
>dies a little
Because you really DON'T have a clear idea of your story.
Writing it out proves it to you in black and white.
This is why you don't like it.
H.
Harb7707
>I'm not writing an actual, fully-fledged screenplay yet. I'm still
>learning and experimenting with the form.
Then why not shut up until you have your shit somewhat together?
H.
Harb7707
>I won't hesitate to ask for some guidance when I get to that point.
>Thank you so much.
Is there anything we could do that would stop you from asking for some guidance
right now?
H.
Harb7707
>>You read a bunch of books, or you hang out with people who know it, or
>>you take courses from people who know it, AND you watch a whole lot of
>>movies, preferably in the theater to note people's reactions, and you
>>write a lot. Then when you sell something, or get someone who knows what
>>they're doing to help you, you learn rewriting, and it all becomes
>>pretty darn clear after a while.
>>
><irony mode> Oh, that easy </irony mode>
That's the way it's done, you self-sanctimonious limey.
H.
Harb7707
Only an English woman could create an atmosphere
so steeped in it.
H.
Harb7707
>Of course, the muttering to yourself and gesticulating gets you some
>strange looks, but we're writers, we're supposed to be eccentric.
You're not a writer, and you're not eccentric.
You're a poor fool.
H.
Jeff Newman
Just filter (killfile, plonk) those who, rather than give constructive advice,
are merely nasty and insulting. Forget about those remarks. Nothing you wrote
indicates you deserve anything like that.
Such enthusiastic mean-spiritedness shows a poverty of mind and morals.
So how should you proceed with your screenwriting? My suggestions:
Keep reading a few excellent screenplays, study the heck out of 5 or so films,
read 2 or 3 screenwriting books, and then just keep writing and getting
informed and *constructive* feedback (ignore the rest).
Writing even a mediocre screenplay is hard. Writing an excellent one is much
harder still. Don't expect to do it on your first screenplay (aim to make it
good, but don't expect great). And don't expect to get to great on a first
draft.
Hang in there, and see how it goes. There is no one way to do it.
Everyone makes mistakes ... the smart ones learn from them. Everyone has
weaknesses ... the good writers learn to detect them and to lessen them.
Becoming a good screenwriter is a marathon, not a sprint. Just keep learning,
growing, and making progress.
Best wishes,
Jeff
Harb7707
>>I guarantee, if you don't play it that way, your audience will
>>be wishing they were off betting with drunken spics at a cockfight.
>
>"Drunken Spics"? Is this some sort of racist dialogue that floats to
>the surface inside the mind of Harp7707
Sorry, I wasn't being specific.
When I say "drunken spics" I am referring to drunken Puerto Ricans,
Dominicans, Mexicans, and generally all South Americans who
indulge in any way with the sport of cock fighting.
I also usually use it just before the term "bullfight enthusiasts."
H.
Harb7707
>
>Ah, he's just pissin' his pants in public again. The guy needs a
>diaper.
And you need a writing mentor, although I believe joining
the army would do you much more good.
H.
Harb7707
>Is there a place like this in LA? Sounds like fun.
Yes there is.
Check out the back parking lot of any Kentucky Fried Chicken outlet after
midnight.
The same goes for McDonalds, only they also have dogfights.
H.
Harb7707
>Writing even a mediocre screenplay is hard.
Except for Jeff.
H.
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
> Ah, walking. The lost mode of transportation. That and bicycling are
>two that I re-discovered after moving back to Canada from Los Angeles.
>
> Wanna see a movie? It's a 30-minute walk to the theater.
It's a 45 minute *drive* from here. Walking would be impractical.
> My
>favourite walk is coming home from a visit to my brother's and taking the
>bridge that spans the St-Lawrence river.
I walk to get to places. I never understood the point of walking for
walking's sake. Maybe when the kids are older.
> A brisk, energetic walk is a great opportunity for reflection, and
>I'll return not only with new inspiration, but with added physical benefits
>to boot.
I tend to walk into lamp-posts and in the path of cars.
> I read somewhere that a one-hour brisk walk is more beneficial
>than a one-hour vigorous bike ride, because of the way your metabolism
>responds to exertion in the long run.
It is certainly good for the figure and general fitness. Unless you walk
into things.
>
> Of course, the muttering to yourself and gesticulating gets you some
>strange looks, but we're writers, we're supposed to be eccentric.
The problem was when I did that *before* I had the excuse of being a
writer.
As a kid, I would walk home from school with a blank stare because I was
running "stories" through my head - usually re-writing TV shows the way
I'd like them to be, or making up stories based in someone else's
fictional world (Star Wars was a favourite for a while). Or I had the
evil super-being thing, in which I would destroy the bullies with lasers
coming out of my eyes or telekinetic powers...
The problem was, I occasionally walked right passed the school, or if I
found the school-gates, a teacher would address me and I'd say "You
shall not tempt me to the dark side of the Force" or give her a
paralysing stare that mysteriously failed to work.
Have you ever noticed that your imaginary dialogue, when you're walking
along, is much better than anything you ever actually write down?
--
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No iron can stab the heart with such force as a full stop put just in
the right place"
Isaac Babel (1932)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dena Jo
> Have you ever noticed that your imaginary dialogue, when you're walking
> along, is much better than anything you ever actually write down?
Nor can you remember it verbatim when you finally get the opportunity to
write it down!
--
Dena Jo
Harb7707
>Have you ever noticed that your imaginary dialogue, when you're walking
>along, is much better than anything you ever actually write down?
That's simply because when you write it down, you are forced
to really contend objectively with the fact that it sucks.
H.
Jacques E. Bouchard
> I walk to get to places. I never understood the point of walking for
> walking's sake. Maybe when the kids are older.
Well, walking, taking the stairs and riding a bike always made more
sense to me than paying a small fortune to do just that for an hour, three
times a week, in a gym. ;-)
jaybee
D C
----------
In article <20020302014632...@mb-cs.aol.com>, harb...@aol.com
(Harb7707) wrote:
>
> I have not seen the ritual work any different.
>
> H.
Nothing would make any difference to you - you simply have no gift for
words, as your many rejections slips prove and will prove till
you give up.
Rob Cottingham
> Fortunately, I have to walk miles and that is often when I get my best
> ideas.
When I was in university, I had an hour-long commute from Blackburn Hamlet
(the 'burbs of Ottawa) to Carleton U by bus. What it boiled down to was two
hours of uninterrupted (except for two transfers) reading, writing and
reflection. I cursed it every day.
Now I work out of home and live minutes from downtown. And I really, really
miss that commute.
--rob, master of the rose-coloured glasses
Max R.
into your very own $750 a month studio on Beachwood and cooking your very
own Spaghettios every night worn off? Getting bored of having no one
around to tell you what to do?
You used to be funny, but I guess the novelty wore off.
Max
"Harb7707" <harb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020302014213...@mb-cs.aol.com...
>
> My God, you're insane. lol
>
> H.
Harb7707
>And you're boring -- has the inspiration of moving out of your mom's place
>into your very own $750 a month studio on Beachwood and cooking your very
>own Spaghettios every night worn off? Getting bored of having no one
>around to tell you what to do?
Interesting flight of fancy.
I reckon the crappy double latte you spent half the day
sucking down at that poor shithole of a starbucks at the
foot of the hill has managed to fire a random pattern of neurons
which made you feel like you had something worthwhile to share.
I'm here to tell you that you need to order a triple next time.
>You used to be funny, but I guess the novelty wore off.
Translation:
I'm funny when you're not the point of focus.
H.
Harb7707
>Nothing would make any difference to you - you simply have no gift for
>words, as your many rejections slips prove and will prove till
>you give up
So why do you bother writing?
Is it to show your dad a thing or two after he beat you senseless
for being caught in the attic dressed in mommy's clothes?
Seriously, you can't begin to be taken seriously as a writer
until you dispense with your girlishly mannered prose.
It's embarrassing.
Stop it.
H.
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
Thanks for sharing.
>That happens to me constantly.
{snip}
>There are two things that actually do work for me, though.
>
>Firstly, (and I suspect it's the same with you), my characters DO talk
>to me--often, I find them doing or saying things that come as a
>complete surprise to me.
There is a sci-fi/fantasy writers site called Serendipity, which has a
"virtual bar" and you're supposed to take your characters there and talk
to them. I have tried that just to see what happens. Usually, my
characters waffle a lot and complain that I don't give them enough to do
(guilty as charged).
They also prove to be rather over-emotional, which is a problem, as I've
being trying to reign them in. A while ago, several people read some of
my stuff and complained that the emotions were laid on with a trowel.
One guy asked me "Have you ever thought of using subtlety?" So, with so
many people saying the same thing, I had to do something about it.
However, this fights against my natural instincts to write opera
librettos!
>The other method...just get away from the computer and go on with your
>life. I think 90% of my writing is done while driving, cooking,
>folding laundry...whatever.
I cannot multitask at all, which is a major problem. However, I do often
dream scenarios.
>Sometimes it's subconscious. I'll be watching the tube or walking to
>the store when WHAM! My subconscious kicks in and delivers unbidden
>that line or plot move that I haven't been able to nail.
That happens to me a lot. I've taken to carrying a notebook at all
times.
>
>I hope that is at least some help.
>
>If not...
>
>...there are always vodka martinis.
Tried that. I imagined I'd written something earth-shattering and
everyone was raving about it. Then I woke up.
--
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
http://www.ratbag.demon.co.uk/anna/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Where so many hours have been spent in convincing myself that I am right, is
there not some reason to fear I may be wrong?"
Jane Austen (Sense and Sensibility).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
D C
----------
In article <20020303012018...@mb-cg.aol.com>, harb...@aol.com
(Harb7707) wrote:
I made more money writing before I left school than you will
ever make. (I know this does not really answer your question
but it answers it in terms comprehensible to geniuses such as you.)
As to sexual tastes, I believe that gratuitous pejorative references
to sexual behaviour are *always* an indication of attraction to
that behaviour. I'm not gay, bisexual, or a transvestite, have nothing
against people who are, some of my friends have definitely been
homosexual.
I hope you understand all this.
D C
----------
In article <VPR9RKAL...@ratbag.demon.co.uk>, "Anna Hayward, Alien
Visitor" <An...@ratbag.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> What is structure without a
>plot? Actually, what is structure period? And how does one develop a
>"sense" of it?
'Structure' is a combination of the story you tell, and the means that
you employ to tell it. The story will be a series of events that has some
sort of meaning or artistic reality, the means will be the literary
framework
on which you hang your story. Take a simple story - Dumbo, basically a
version
of "The Ugly Duckling." An elephant has especially big ears and is reviled.
But it uses them to fly and becomes a hero and star of the circus. In the
cartoon
the very simple concept is fleshed out with songs, visions, pathos and
humour -
the structure, that is how how the story is told. Your story has at least a
start
and a finish: the structure of the finished product is the proportions of
given
emphasis and style applied to the various elements on which the structure is
based
or which it inspires.
Or something like that . . .
D C
----------
In article <37a28db9.02030...@posting.google.com>,
wcma...@compuserve.com (wcmartell) wrote:
>
> If you think about it, the advice is really - when things seem to get
> dull, add conflict.
This from a how-to book fatty?
When things get dull you need to go back ten pages and work
out why.
PJ Browning
> There is a sci-fi/fantasy writers site called Serendipity,
location??
--
PJ
Arcadia Gallery
http://arcadiaprod.crosswinds.net
PJ Browning
mini tape recorder. I have whole conversations that way. folks don't think
I'm nuts once they figure out what I'm up to (I live in LA, everyone acts a
bit strange here)
PJ Browning
> Anna:
>
> >>Don't be afraid of preplanning - writing a script is not for your
> >>entertainment, it's for the film audience's entertainment.
> >
> >All story-telling is for an audience.
>
> Anna, I think you're missing the point here.
> People here are trying to tell you in a polite way that
> you're a boorish, verbose limey.
> Is that clear, dear?
>
> H.
Hey Harb. Go play in the street. Please. or at least stick those
scissors in your mouth and see if you can cut your own tongue off (just
be careful to make sure that you choke on it)
And in case you haven't figured it out Anna. Harb is a troll. He's a
shit that doesn't have the guts to do any real writing and he thinks
acting like an asshole proves that he has a brain cell in his head. he
doesn't (either of them)
Dena Jo
> mini tape recorder. I have whole conversations that way. folks don't think
> I'm nuts once they figure out what I'm up to (I live in LA, everyone acts
a
> bit strange here)
I tried that for a while, but then I couldn't bear listening to myself
afterwards. The bigger problem, though, was that in my mind, the scene is
fully acted out, with the dialogue delivered as it would be on the screen.
Yeah, it's L.A., and people expect everyone to be a little weird, but if I
tried to capture the scene in my head out loud on a portable tape recorder,
I'd probably be placed on a 72-hour hold.
--
Dena Jo
wcmartell
I think that was the very next line in my post - the one you cut out
to create this illuminating and witty post.
Only problem is, anyone can go right back to my original post, read
the whole thing, and they'll know you edited it.
- Bill
Harb7707
>the structure of the finished product is the proportions of
>given emphasis and style applied to the various elements on which
>the structure is based or which it inspires.
There is no hose long enough to give you the proper enema
that is sorely required.
H.
Harb7707
>This from a how-to book fatty?
>
>When things get dull you need to go back ten pages and work
>out why.
Not necessarily my dear dweeb.
Plenty of movies have had complete or parts of scenes
improvised by the actors or quickly written up by the writers
with dynamic affect without maligning anything ten pages before
or ten pages back.
One of the most memorable moments from Blade Runner
was tagged on by Rutger Haur the day of shooting it.
It made a relatively bland death poignant.
Your point of view on is clearly reflected in your prose, by the way,
which is so dried out, it coughs dust.
H.
Harb7707
>The bigger problem, though, was that in my mind, the scene is
>fully acted out, with the dialogue delivered as it would be on the screen.
Then you need to break yourself of that bad habit.
Your trying to direct it in your head. That's not your job.
Your job is to write great dialogue within compelling circumstances.
Make it a good read, let the other professionals primp it up
to full specifications.
Quit wasting energy.
H.
Harb7707
>Hey Harb. Go play in the street. Please. or at least stick those
>scissors in your mouth and see if you can cut your own tongue off (just
>be careful to make sure that you choke on it)
But if I cut off my tongue, your mother would be heart-broken.
>And in case you haven't figured it out Anna. Harb is a troll. He's a
>shit that doesn't have the guts to do any real writing and he thinks
>acting like an asshole proves that he has a brain cell in his head. he
>doesn't (either of them)
In case you haven't figured it out, Anna, PJ is to stupid to
figure out that people will take one look at his website
and dismiss him for a guy who refuses to let go of the
perspective of a college freshman.
Posting your name isn't brave, in your case, PJ.
It's absolutely clueless.
H.
potato
Harb7707
>I made more money writing before I left school than you will
>ever make. (I know this does not really answer your question
>but it answers it in terms comprehensible to geniuses such as you.)
You seem to think that because somebody sees fit to pay you
for your writing, that this somehow validates you as a creative
talent.
A casual perusal through the articles in People magazine, or
any technical manual will tell you that's not the case.
>As to sexual tastes, I believe that gratuitous pejorative references
>to sexual behaviour are *always* an indication of attraction to
>that behaviour. I'm not gay, bisexual, or a transvestite, have nothing
>against people who are, some of my friends have definitely been
>homosexual.
>I hope you understand all this.
I hope you understand the advice I'm going to give you:
Step forward, move the clothes aside, turn the handle, open the door,
and come out of the closet.
H.
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
<arcad...@crosswinds.net> writes
>"Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor" wrote:
>
>> There is a sci-fi/fantasy writers site called Serendipity,
>
>location??
Sorry.
http://www.digitalphotosystem.com/Tales/
--
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
That which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield.
from "Ullyses" by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
D C
----------
In article <37a28db9.02030...@posting.google.com>,
wcma...@compuserve.com (wcmartell) wrote:
>
> I think that was the very next line in my post - the one you cut out
> to create this illuminating and witty post.
>
> Only problem is, anyone can go right back to my original post, read
> the whole thing, and they'll know you edited it.
>
> - Bill
Ok Bill, withdrawn - many apologies et cetera.
D C
----------
In article <20020304022338...@mb-fx.aol.com>, harb...@aol.com
(Harb7707) wrote:
> DC:
>
>>This from a how-to book fatty?
>>
>>When things get dull you need to go back ten pages and work
>>out why.
>
> Not necessarily my dear dweeb.
I swore I would not reply to you again.
Please accept that I do not take writing lessons from
a mental retard who couldn't write a shopping list without
spitting blood.
Die - and I'll hammer the nails in your coffin.
Harb7707
>Please accept that I do not take writing lessons from
>a mental retard who couldn't write a shopping list without
>spitting blood.
I know.
You simply write for them in women's magazines.
Harb