More on Phoenix Freeway System History, etc.
jan...@hotmail.com
In a recent thread, much was said about the Phoenix freeway system and
the reportedly abandoned 'Paradise Freeway'. I have some more historical
information on the plans for the Phoenix area.
1. 'Squaw Peak' Parkway: This was the origional name for what is now the
Squaw Peak Freeway. It was going to be limited access but signalized
just about every intersection. That has since been completely abandoned
in favor of a traditional freeway. In 1970 the Arizona Republic showed
it only going to Northern Avenue where it would 'T' at the cross-town
Paradise Freeway and that the Paradise Freeway would follow Northern
Ave and Lincoln Drive between the two halves of the Outer Loop freeway
which is now known as Loop 101 and is presently under construction.
2. The 'Durango' Freeway. This was also in that 1970 plan, and it ran
just south of Buckeye Road. There are vestiges of the old setup for
an interchange for it at a place called the Durango Curve. It is thought
that that would have been the original ending for I-8 rather than I-8
going where it does now. An old World Book Encyclopedia showed I-8 going
to Phoenix. There is a webcam on the interchange at http://www.azfms.com/
3. I-10 'Deck Park Tunnel' Not in original plan. Rather, a bizarre
interchange plan called 'Hellcoils' was proposed and ADOT even had a
model of the interchange. This interchange would have been where the
Deck Park Tunnel is now. The Arizona Republic showed a picture of
this model in 1968 or 1969. It looked somewhat like a coil burner on an
electric range and the Arizona Republic said that one had been built
somewhere.
4. 'Paradise Freeway' abandonment. Now the original 1985 vote
was based on the original plan for the Paradise Freeway and the Grand
Avenue Expressway to be built. That is what Phoenicians assumed would
be built and I am sure that some expect it to be built. It is needed.
5. Proposed 3di's. Someone wrote earlier that I-410 would go around
the Durango Curve from what is now called 'The Stack' to the present
end of I-17 and that the I-17 would end at the 'Spiderweb' (as Arizona
Highways would refer to a small half-mile section of the then unfinished
I-10 (known then as I-408). The 'Spiderweb' was torn down in 1987 for
the current end of I-17 at I-10 interchange and the signage for I-408
was taken down in the mid-70's I saw a large overhead sign on I-10 WB over
the Salt River that had I-408 on it.
4. Numbering changes.
Loop 101 was originally known as SR 417
Loop 202 was originally known as SR 217 then 301 before it becaue 202.
Until recently the US 60 freeway was SR 360.
There were a couple of others like this. More later on this and
other info on Phoenix Freeways.
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Ralph Herman
jan...@hotmail.com wrote in message <6cl853$8bh$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In a recent thread, much was said about the Phoenix freeway system and
>the reportedly abandoned 'Paradise Freeway'. I have some more historical
>information on the plans for the Phoenix area.
>
>1. 'Squaw Peak' Parkway: This was the origional name for what is now the
>Squaw Peak Freeway. It was going to be limited access but signalized
>just about every intersection. That has since been completely abandoned
>in favor of a traditional freeway. In 1970 the Arizona Republic showed
>it only going to Northern Avenue where it would 'T' at the cross-town
>Paradise Freeway and that the Paradise Freeway would follow Northern
>Ave and Lincoln Drive between the two halves of the Outer Loop freeway
>which is now known as Loop 101 and is presently under construction.
I lived in Phoenix from 1971-1975 (again from 1988-1992), and IIRC, this is
not completely accurate. SR51/Squaw Peak Freeway was stalled in the 1970's
by NIMBY's along the 20th Street . In the 1980's, the Squaw Parkway
construction was started by the City of Phoenix from McDowell Road to
Glendale Avenue. In the 1990's ADOT took over maintenance of the Squaw Peak
Parkway, which BTW does not meet freeway standards. ADOT is responsible for
construction north of Glendale Avenue.
>
>2. The 'Durango' Freeway. This was also in that 1970 plan, and it ran
>just south of Buckeye Road. There are vestiges of the old setup for
>an interchange for it at a place called the Durango Curve. It is thought
>that that would have been the original ending for I-8 rather than I-8
>going where it does now. An old World Book Encyclopedia showed I-8 going
>to Phoenix. There is a webcam on the interchange at http://www.azfms.com/
It wasn't for I-8, but for I-10/Papago Freeway. The original alignment for
I-10 was to follow US80 (now SR85) west towards Buckeye. In the early
1970's (?), Phoenix convinced ADOT to redirected the I-10/Papago alignment
just north of McDowell Road. The overpasses for ghost ramps were removed at
the Durango Curve, and I-17 designation was extended "east" along the
Maricopa Freeway to 20th Street. IIRC, I-8 alignment was always directed
from Yuma to Gasa Grande, not Yuma to Phoenix. Richard might know it if was
ever directed towards Phoenix, I doubt it was.
>
>3. I-10 'Deck Park Tunnel' Not in original plan. Rather, a bizarre
>interchange plan called 'Hellcoils' was proposed and ADOT even had a
>model of the interchange. This interchange would have been where the
>Deck Park Tunnel is now. The Arizona Republic showed a picture of
>this model in 1968 or 1969. It looked somewhat like a coil burner on an
>electric range and the Arizona Republic said that one had been built
>somewhere.
ADOT's plan was to build a "Skyway" over Central Avenue, about ten stories
high. Probably one of the worst freeway ideas ever designed, IMO. Fueled by
the local newspaper, citizens of Phoenix were up in arms about this design
and freeway construction came to a halt in the mid 1970's, except for SR360
east to Mesa. I believe the plan was after 1971, I remember when it was
announced.
>
>4. 'Paradise Freeway' abandonment. Now the original 1985 vote
>was based on the original plan for the Paradise Freeway and the Grand
>Avenue Expressway to be built. That is what Phoenicians assumed would
>be built and I am sure that some expect it to be built. It is needed.
ADOT revenue projections were too optimistic, something had to give.
>
>5. Proposed 3di's. Someone wrote earlier that I-410 would go around
>the Durango Curve from what is now called 'The Stack' to the present
>end of I-17 and that the I-17 would end at the 'Spiderweb' (as Arizona
>Highways would refer to a small half-mile section of the then unfinished
>I-10 (known then as I-408). The 'Spiderweb' was torn down in 1987 for
>the current end of I-17 at I-10 interchange and the signage for I-408
>was taken down in the mid-70's I saw a large overhead sign on I-10 WB
over
>the Salt River that had I-408 on it.
The current I-10 routing along the Moreland (McDowell) and 20th Streets
alignment (north and east parts of the downtown loop) *was* designated I-410
in the 1970's. As I mentioned earlier, I-10 was to connect further south
along Buckeye Road with the existing Maricopa Freeway at the Durango Curve
near 21st Ave. The short stub of I-410 north of the Maricopa Freeway to
Buckeye Road just west of Sky Harbor Airport was signed I-410 on the exit
signs in the early 1970's (it is now the current I-10 alignment). BTW, it
was the only 3dig Interstate ever posted in Arizona, IIRC.
Ralph
Richard C. Moeur
jander7 wrote:
>
> In a recent thread, much was said about the Phoenix freeway system and
> the reportedly abandoned 'Paradise Freeway'. I have some more historical
> information on the plans for the Phoenix area.
>
> 1. 'Squaw Peak' Parkway: This was the origional name for what is now the
> Squaw Peak Freeway. It was going to be limited access but signalized
> just about every intersection. That has since been completely abandoned
> in favor of a traditional freeway.
A better word might be "upgraded".
The Squaw Peak Parkway between I-10 and Glendale Avenue was
built by the City of Phoenix (not ADOT) between 1986 and 1990.
This indeed had signalized intersections for a short while, but
interchanges were eventually built.
> In 1970 the Arizona Republic showed
> it only going to Northern Avenue where it would 'T' at the cross-town
> Paradise Freeway and that the Paradise Freeway would follow Northern
> Ave and Lincoln Drive between the two halves of the Outer Loop freeway
> which is now known as Loop 101 and is presently under construction.
This could have been one of the proposed Paradise alignments.
In fact, what is now known as the Red Mountain Freeway (loop
202) was originally proposed (in a 1972 study) to follow a
McDowell Road alignment across Scottsdale to the outer loop.
Needless to say, this alignment did change a bit before
final construction.
>
> 2. The 'Durango' Freeway. This was also in that 1970 plan, and it ran
> just south of Buckeye Road. There are vestiges of the old setup for
> an interchange for it at a place called the Durango Curve.
There were even underpasses for the I-10 ramps - but these
were removed during a reconstruction project about 20 years ago.
> It is thought
> that that would have been the original ending for I-8 rather than I-8
> going where it does now.
I don't believe this is correct.
The Durango Curve was originally intended to be the junction
between I-10 and I-17, with I-10 proceeding directly west
from this point. I have a copy of the original construction
plans from this highway which clearly show that I-10, not
I-8, was to intersect here.
The I-10 alignment was subsequently moved northward to the
current Moreland alignment. A freeway was still considered
for the Durango alignment, but no official documents show
that this was ever intended to be I-8 or I-408.
> An old World Book Encyclopedia showed I-8 going
> to Phoenix. There is a webcam on the interchange at http://www.azfms.com/
The World Book may be authoritative in many items, but
in this case I believe it was either making premature
speculation or was just wrong.
>
> 3. I-10 'Deck Park Tunnel' Not in original plan. Rather, a bizarre
> interchange plan called 'Hellcoils' was proposed and ADOT even had a
> model of the interchange. This interchange would have been where the
> Deck Park Tunnel is now. The Arizona Republic showed a picture of
> this model in 1968 or 1969. It looked somewhat like a coil burner on an
> electric range and the Arizona Republic said that one had been built
> somewhere.
Ah yes, the helicoils.
My copy of the original Papago Freeway concept report show
these "graceful structures", designed to carry traffic from
surface streets (3rd/5th Ave, 3rd/5th St) up to the 100
foot high viaduct "leaping over" central Phoenix. The idea
was to place I-10 so high as to not impact land use below.
Visual impact, however, was another story, and this was one
of the key reasons the Arizona Republic and Phoenix Gazette
(specifically Gene Pulliam) spoke out so bitterly in opposition
to this and other urban freeways - which may have been a
cause of the 20-year delay in building Phoenix freeways.
A depressed alternative was also presented in the original
Papago Freeway reports, but this alternative received much
lass attention (but was the selected one in the end).
>
> 4. 'Paradise Freeway' abandonment. Now the original 1985 vote
> was based on the original plan for the Paradise Freeway and the Grand
> Avenue Expressway to be built. That is what Phoenicians assumed would
> be built and I am sure that some expect it to be built. It is needed.
ADOT will not commit to building anything it can't find
funding for. The voters have spoken - no more money. Therefore,
no freeway.
>
> 5. Proposed 3di's. Someone wrote earlier that I-410 would go around
> the Durango Curve from what is now called 'The Stack' to the present
> end of I-17 and that the I-17 would end at the 'Spiderweb' (as Arizona
> Highways would refer to a small half-mile section of the then unfinished
> I-10 (known then as I-408). The 'Spiderweb' was torn down in 1987 for
> the current end of I-17 at I-10 interchange and the signage for I-408
> was taken down in the mid-70's I saw a large overhead sign on I-10 WB over
> the Salt River that had I-408 on it.
May I repeat:
In my 12 years with ADOT, and in my thorough research, I have
never found any reference whatsoever to an Interstate 408 or
any other x08 freeway. None at all. Period.
The sign you recall seeing may have been the one for the
short-lived I-510, which did use that stub of freeway
just west of the airport (which was demolished in 1986-87).
I have seen photos and pland for the I-510 signing at this
location, but never any signing for a I-410.
BTW, I am managing a project to improve the signing at the
I-10/I-17 split, and to replace the signs on I-17 from the
split to Thomas Road. I am also responsible for sign
designs on I-17 from the I-10 junction all the way to SR 169.
As part of these designs, a thorough search of previous
projects is performed, and all old signing plans are reviewed.
So, I think I can say with some certainty that I am
reasonably familiar with past and present route signing
in this area.
>
> 4. Numbering changes.
>
> Loop 101 was originally known as SR 417
> Loop 202 was originally known as SR 217 then 301 before it becaue 202.
> Until recently the US 60 freeway was SR 360.
Correct - see my previous posting on this subject.
>
> There were a couple of others like this. More later on this and
> other info on Phoenix Freeways.
Looking forward to it, but please check your facts
with official records if there are any doubts.
--
Richard C. Moeur, P.E., N7WTB, E.C.I., whatever...
Practicing Traffic Engineer (I'll get it right someday...)
Phoenix, Arizona, USA
"Life is just one W1-5 after another, until the W14-1"
The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
the Arizona Department of Transportation. Really.
WWW: http://members.aol.com/rcmoeur/
E-Mail: rcm...@aol.com, NOT rcm...@earthlink.net. Tnx!
Oscar Voss
Richard C. Moeur wrote:
>
> > It is thought
> > that that would have been the original ending for I-8 rather than I-8
> > going where it does now.
>
> I don't believe this is correct.
> The Durango Curve was originally intended to be the junction
> between I-10 and I-17, with I-10 proceeding directly west
> from this point. I have a copy of the original construction
> plans from this highway which clearly show that I-10, not
> I-8, was to intersect here.
>
> The I-10 alignment was subsequently moved northward to the
> current Moreland alignment. A freeway was still considered
> for the Durango alignment, but no official documents show
> that this was ever intended to be I-8 or I-408.
>
> > An old World Book Encyclopedia showed I-8 going
> > to Phoenix. There is a webcam on the interchange at http://www.azfms.com/
>
> The World Book may be authoritative in many items, but
> in this case I believe it was either making premature
> speculation or was just wrong.
The World Book might be right on this one -- at least as a matter of
ancient history. Dave Schul made an interesting post here 7/16/97 on a
Federal publication on the original 1947 plans for the Interstate
system. Among the items he mentioned was that I-8 was originally going
to be routed to Phoenix instead of Casa Grande.
IIRC, this decision was reversed by the time the Interstate system got
started in 1956, and I wouldn't be surprised if Arizona DOT did
absolutely nothing in the late '40s and early '50s to follow through on
the early I-8-to-Phoenix plans before those plans were thrown out.
--
Oscar Voss, Arlington, Virginia
ov...@erols.com
Richard C. Moeur
Oscar Voss replied:
>
> The World Book might be right on this one -- at least as a matter of
> ancient history. Dave Schul made an interesting post here 7/16/97 on a
> Federal publication on the original 1947 plans for the Interstate
> system. Among the items he mentioned was that I-8 was originally going
> to be routed to Phoenix instead of Casa Grande.
>
> IIRC, this decision was reversed by the time the Interstate system got
> started in 1956, and I wouldn't be surprised if Arizona DOT did
> absolutely nothing in the late '40s and early '50s to follow through on
> the early I-8-to-Phoenix plans before those plans were thrown out.
But was this hypothetical highway designated specifically as
"Interstate 8" at this time?
If not, then please don't insist on calling it I-8, because
it wasn't. A better designation might be an "upgraded US 80".
Oscar Voss
Richard C. Moeur wrote:
>
> Oscar Voss replied:
> >
> > The World Book might be right on this one -- at least as a matter of
> > ancient history. Dave Schul made an interesting post here 7/16/97 on a
> > Federal publication on the original 1947 plans for the Interstate
> > system. Among the items he mentioned was that I-8 was originally going
> > to be routed to Phoenix instead of Casa Grande.
> >
> > IIRC, this decision was reversed by the time the Interstate system got
> > started in 1956, and I wouldn't be surprised if Arizona DOT did
> > absolutely nothing in the late '40s and early '50s to follow through on
> > the early I-8-to-Phoenix plans before those plans were thrown out.
>
> But was this hypothetical highway designated specifically as
> "Interstate 8" at this time?
>
> If not, then please don't insist on calling it I-8, because
> it wasn't. A better designation might be an "upgraded US 80".
Well, according to Dave Schul's post, the road was to be part of the
Interstate system, and was to go from Phoenix to San Diego mostly
following the path of present-day I-8 ... but route numbers had not been
assigned (or didn't appear on the map), so technically it may not have
been I-8 yet. (And perhaps by the time route numbers had been assigned,
I-8's eastern terminus had been changed to Casa Grande, instead of
Phoenix.)
So you may be right that no Interstate planned to go between San Diego
and Phoenix was ever called I-8 -- but if Dave Schul's post is correct
(I've not seen his source materials), that yet-to-be-numbered new
freeway was envisioned to be part of the Interstate system then on the
drawing boards (though not yet approved by Congress), rather than just
another upgrade within the existing US highway system as you suggest it
might have been.
Concerned musician
In article <34EE79...@earthlink.net>, rcm...@aol.com wrote:
> jander7 wrote:
> >
> > 5. Proposed 3di's. Someone wrote earlier that I-410 would go around
> > the Durango Curve from what is now called 'The Stack' to the present
> > end of I-17 and that the I-17 would end at the 'Spiderweb' (as Arizona
> > Highways would refer to a small half-mile section of the then unfinished
> > I-10 (known then as I-408). The 'Spiderweb' was torn down in 1987 for
> > the current end of I-17 at I-10 interchange and the signage for I-408
> > was taken down in the mid-70's I saw a large overhead sign on I-10 WB over
> > the Salt River that had I-408 on it.
>
> May I repeat:
> In my 12 years with ADOT, and in my thorough research, I have
> never found any reference whatsoever to an Interstate 408 or
> any other x08 freeway. None at all. Period.
>
> The sign you recall seeing may have been the one for the
> short-lived I-510, which did use that stub of freeway
> just west of the airport (which was demolished in 1986-87).
> I have seen photos and pland for the I-510 signing at this
> location, but never any signing for a I-410.
>
Here are the only print sources I have for 3di's in AZ:
I-410: 1970 Chevron (Gousha) Phoenix map. I-410 was marked for the
(incomplete) inner loop where I-10 goes north of I-17. This could be in
error, and have led to an 'urban myth' of a proposed I-410.
I-510: Photo of signing in Better Roads magazine, 1966.
I-710: Mention in Federal Aid Highway Act of 1970, in a list of
uncompleted Interstate segments. This one would have been in Tucson.
--
Scott Oglesby www.kurumi.com "sto at kurumi point com"
In tha house: Connecticut Roads, 3di's, interchanges, SignMaker
As IF!: animated GIF's, spam, Amy Yip jpegs, Microsoft anything
NFARS
>> Until recently the US 60 freeway was SR 360.
>
>Correct - see my previous posting on this subject.
So was the Superstition Fwy. a 3 digit branch of US 60 before the
decomissioning of Hwy. 89 after Wickenburg and Hwy 93 after Wickenburg?
Christopher
NF...@aol.com
--------------------------------------------------------------
Highway Definitions:
Embarcadero Freeway: "skwaius uglius"
I-99: "bureaocraceo idiocieo"
US 66: "highwaius glorifius"
Lincoln Hwy.: "highwaius originalus"
Richard C. Moeur
Christopher asked:
>
> So was the Superstition Fwy. a 3 digit branch of US 60 before the
> decomissioning of Hwy. 89 after Wickenburg and Hwy 93 after Wickenburg?
Not really, but sort of
.
This freeway was always SR 360 until the 1993 redesignation,
not US 360.
However, it did have a x60 designation, ran parallel to
US 60 (Apache/Main), and (finally in 1990) connected to
US 60 southeast of Apache Junction.
Of course, by then the freeway made the better route for an
(almost) transcontinental highway, so AASHTO approved
Arizona's petition to reroute US 60 and drop US 89.
This also allowed ADOT to turn back old 60/89 to
the Valley cities.
Dave Schul
Oscar Voss <ov...@erols.com> wrote:
>Well, according to Dave Schul's post, the road was to be part of the
>Interstate system, and was to go from Phoenix to San Diego mostly
>following the path of present-day I-8 ... but route numbers had not been
>assigned (or didn't appear on the map), so technically it may not have
>been I-8 yet. (And perhaps by the time route numbers had been assigned,
>I-8's eastern terminus had been changed to Casa Grande, instead of
>Phoenix.)
>So you may be right that no Interstate planned to go between San Diego
>and Phoenix was ever called I-8 -- but if Dave Schul's post is correct
>(I've not seen his source materials), that yet-to-be-numbered new
>freeway was envisioned to be part of the Interstate system then on the
>drawing boards (though not yet approved by Congress), rather than just
>another upgrade within the existing US highway system as you suggest it
>might have been.
Unfortunately, the book is at my office at school right now, so I
can't check everything, but I believe that the roads were not numbered
on the map. I believe the map in the book was a photograph of a large
wall map, so there may have been some information on the original that
was just too small to be seen in the photo.
Dave Schul
Note: this was posted from a false address to foil spammers --
Please reply to the address below.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Schul dave (at) roadmaps (dot) org
Freelance Geographer President, Road Map Collectors of America
Lawrence, Kansas Home of the Jayhawks
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Herman
Concerned musician wrote in message ...
>In article <34EE79...@earthlink.net>, rcm...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> jander7 wrote:
>> >
I saw a large overhead sign on I-10 WB over
>> > the Salt River that had I-408 on it.
the exit guide sign in 1971-1973 displayed "I-410
Buckeye Rd
Exit 1 Mile
ADOT sign was fabricated with plywood, ADOT used plywood sign pannels for
"temporary signing" during this period. And I remember the gray paint on
the back side began to fade in the desert sun.
I drove the route regularly. After I-410 was decommissioned, the WB signs
were changed to
TO 16th ST
Exit xx Mile
EB signing was
TO 24th St
Sky Harbor Intl
Airport
Exit xx Mile
If this section was ever signed I-510, it was before June 1971.
>>
>> The sign you recall seeing may have been the one for the
>> short-lived I-510, which did use that stub of freeway
>> just west of the airport (which was demolished in 1986-87).
Freeway was not demolished, but rebuilt... I-10 alignment was changed, uses
previous I-410 alignment through central Phoenix.
>> I have seen photos and pland for the I-510 signing at this
>> location, but never any signing for a I-410.
I am absolutely certain it was signed I-410 from I-10
>>
>
>Here are the only print sources I have for 3di's in AZ:
>
>I-410: 1970 Chevron (Gousha) Phoenix map. I-410 was marked for the
>(incomplete) inner loop where I-10 goes north of I-17. This could be in
>error, and have led to an 'urban myth' of a proposed I-410.
No myth, the approx 1 mile stub was signed I-410. Only section of deignated
I-410 built before alignment changed to I-10.
>I-510: Photo of signing in Better Roads magazine, 1966.
Possible, but was changed by June 1971
>I-710: Mention in Federal Aid Highway Act of 1970, in a list of
>uncompleted Interstate segments. This one would have been in Tucson.
I think it was the proposed Butterfield Freeway, but I remember I-710
assigned to a freeway route in Tucson, thee was heavy NIMBY opposition in
the first half of the 1970's.
Ralph