Ped. tunnel between Metro Ctr., Gallery Pl; Blue Line to run on Green Line?
Douglas A. Willinger
> Yes, but the ped tunnel between Gallery Place and Metro Center is,
> IMHO, a waste of money that could go to a new M Street Subway (and
> would likely go a long way to a new line -- the cost of retrofitting
> the system for these short-term "quick fixes" is estimated at a "mere"
> $4 BILLION dollars. Might as well start digging that M St subway.)
Be sure to design anything here to NOT conflict with an cross-town
I-66 tunnel beneath K Street.
Douglas A. Willinger
Takoma Park Highway Design Studio
John R Cambron
Brian's M Street subway comes no where near the K street
easement. It would however pass under the northern approaches
of the Third Street Tunnel DC I-395 in much the same way that
the Red Line B route under E Street between Judiciary Square
(B02) and Union Station (B03) pass under Third Street Tunnel
DC I-395 today.
Oh, and I would like to see the list of all the so called
"quick fixes" with an alleged price tag $400,000,000,000.00
the list must be pretty long, as the 1,200' X 24' pedestrian
tunnel between Metro Center (A01, C01) and Gallery Place
(B01, F01) can't have a price tag greater then 20,000,000.00.
--
======================================================================
Transit Geek http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/
Model Railroader HO N John R Cambron
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/sunbelt/ North Beach MD USA
Railroad Geek camb...@chesapeake.net
Carpenter, back to building houses, I am still too old for this stuff.
======================================================================
Thomas Smith
be more practical. I know it was initially planned that the two stations
would be initially linked, but the National Park Service balked because it
would mean digging up Farragut Square (although if they stayed along 17th
St. NW. this wouldn't be a problem). Also, this would have interfered with
the proposed I-66 along K St. NW. (part of the ceiling at Farragut North
station was lowered for this reason). They did construct "knock-out" walls
in both stations should they change their minds.
It would be more difficult to go between Gallery Place and Metro Center
because it is twice as far between those two stations than the two Farragut
stations (900' between Gallery Place and Metro Center compared to 450' from
Farragut North and Farragut West). The configuration of the track makes
this difficult, too. The tracks along that stretch of the Red Line are too
close together to build between them. You would have to go parallel to the
tracks risking damage to the buildings above. I don't know how deep the
tracks are here, but I don't think they are very far down (about 30' from
track bed to street level).
Tom Smith
"John R Cambron" <*camb...@chesapeake.net*> wrote in message
news:tsf918b...@corp.supernews.com...
John R Cambron
Thomas Smith wrote:
>
> I think a tunnel between the Farragut North and Farragut West stations would
> be more practical. I know it was initially planned that the two stations
> would be initially linked, but the National Park Service balked because it
> would mean digging up Farragut Square (although if they stayed along 17th
> St. NW. this wouldn't be a problem). Also, this would have interfered with
> the proposed I-66 along K St. NW. (part of the ceiling at Farragut North
> station was lowered for this reason). They did construct "knock-out" walls
> in both stations should they change their minds.
No doubt. however you have it wrong about the National Park Service
objection. the location of the pedestrian tunnel would in fact run
under 17th Street. Knockouts for this connection are in place in both
Farragut stations. Farragut North (A02) south end paid area mezzanine
opposite (west) side of train hall from existing surface entrance
passageway, Farragut West (C03) east paid area mezzanine opposite
(north) side of train hall from existing surface entrance passageway.
The bottom of this section of the Farragut North (A02) station train
hall shows the outline of the K Street freeway easement;
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/expansion/m80-52.jpg
This plan of the south mezzanine of the Farragut North (A02) station
shows the location of the knockout;
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/expansion/m80-10.jpg
This cross section at the center line of the Farragut North (A02)
station south mezzanine surface entrance passageway also shows the
location of the knockout;
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/expansion/m80-23.jpg
As for the pedestrian tunnel interfering with the K street Freeway
easement this might be that big of a deal as there is a difference
of about 20' between in elevation of the mezzanines of the stations.
The change in elevation could be made just outside of the Farragut
North (A02) knockout with the pedestrian tunnel running above the
K Street Freeway easement.
I also have similar drawings of the Farragut West (C03) station.
> It would be more difficult to go between Gallery Place and Metro Center
> because it is twice as far between those two stations than the two Farragut
> stations (900' between Gallery Place and Metro Center compared to 450' from
> Farragut North and Farragut West). The configuration of the track makes
> this difficult, too. The tracks along that stretch of the Red Line are too
> close together to build between them. You would have to go parallel to the
> tracks risking damage to the buildings above. I don't know how deep the
> tracks are here, but I don't think they are very far down (about 30' from
> track bed to street level).
Such a tunnel would likely be built using cut and cover type
construction. Shoring piles used to hold the excavation open
during original construction are still in place and would likely
be used in any pedestrian tunnel construction. Most of the
buildings along G Street have similar shoring piles. How WMATA
would make this a paid area connection will be interesting.
Building it as a free area connection would be very easy, rexcavate
above the tunnels, construct pedestrian tunnel above existing rail
line tunnels connect pedestrian tunnel to surface entrance
passageways in Metro Center (A01) (east) and Gallery Place (B01)
(west).
John R Cambron
John R Cambron wrote:
>
> Thomas Smith wrote:
> >
> > I think a tunnel between the Farragut North and Farragut West stations would
> > be more practical. I know it was initially planned that the two stations
> > would be initially linked, but the National Park Service balked because it
> > would mean digging up Farragut Square (although if they stayed along 17th
> > St. NW. this wouldn't be a problem). Also, this would have interfered with
> > the proposed I-66 along K St. NW. (part of the ceiling at Farragut North
> > station was lowered for this reason). They did construct "knock-out" walls
> > in both stations should they change their minds.
The reason for the chopping off the full hight of the north end of
the Farragut North (A02) station vualt was to accomadate as I recall
two large water pipes an a large sewer line that runs the lingth of
L Street NW.
Thomas Smith
>
>
> Thomas Smith wrote:
> >
> > I think a tunnel between the Farragut North and Farragut West stations
would
> > be more practical. I know it was initially planned that the two
stations
> > would be initially linked, but the National Park Service balked because
it
> > would mean digging up Farragut Square (although if they stayed along
17th
> > St. NW. this wouldn't be a problem). Also, this would have interfered
with
> > the proposed I-66 along K St. NW. (part of the ceiling at Farragut North
> > station was lowered for this reason). They did construct "knock-out"
walls
> > in both stations should they change their minds.
>
> No doubt. however you have it wrong about the National Park Service
> objection. the location of the pedestrian tunnel would in fact run
> under 17th Street. Knockouts for this connection are in place in both
> Farragut stations. Farragut North (A02) south end paid area mezzanine
> opposite (west) side of train hall from existing surface entrance
> passageway, Farragut West (C03) east paid area mezzanine opposite
> (north) side of train hall from existing surface entrance passageway.
>
IIRC, the two Farragut stations were supposed to link much like the Fort
Totten does now. However, the NPS objected to a station under Farragut
Square. The Washington Post has a photo gallery with historic photos
detailing the construction of Metro and some of the problems during
construction (including the "yellow line flood" in 1977 when a temporary
plug on the L route failed and let water into the system. The URL is
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/metro/metrorail/metrorail.html.
Could be done if you rrconstruct the enterances at the 9th/G at Gallery
Place and the 11th/G enterace at Metro Center moving the fairgates so that
you basicly have a side access tunnel. I don't think this would work in
solving the overcroduing problems, though. Since trains run every three
minutes during rush hour (when the greatest overcrowding occurs), people
would be unwilling to walk the distance between the two stations because the
train would be faster (even with the wait). This would not solve the main
crowding problem, though. The current problem began when the Green line
opened on the full length of the F line south of Anacostia to crowds over
twice what was expected, and this was compounded by delays in putting new
cars in service.
Tom Smith
wrob
>
> "Douglas A. Willinger" wrote:
> >
> > wrob <wr...@erols.com> wrote in message news:<3BB6975A...@erols.com>...
> > > Yes, but the ped tunnel between Gallery Place and Metro Center is,
> > > IMHO, a waste of money that could go to a new M Street Subway (and
> > > would likely go a long way to a new line -- the cost of retrofitting
> > > the system for these short-term "quick fixes" is estimated at a "mere"
> > > $4 BILLION dollars. Might as well start digging that M St subway.)
> >
> > Be sure to design anything here to NOT conflict with an cross-town
> > I-66 tunnel beneath K Street.
>
> Brian's M Street subway comes no where near the K street
> easement. It would however pass under the northern approaches
> of the Third Street Tunnel DC I-395 in much the same way that
> the Red Line B route under E Street between Judiciary Square
> (B02) and Union Station (B03) pass under Third Street Tunnel
> DC I-395 today.
For more info, see
http://earthops.org/purple-line/crosstown-crop_75.jpg
(or does it not have an underscore there? check and see)
Actually, depends which way it goes past New Jersey Ave. If the
Third Street Tunnel is extended under the intersection to come up
in the median of New York Ave. Northbound, then it would pass under
the resulting underpass much the way it would have to do under
Thomas Circle (the Mass Ave underpass). In fact, this interchange
improvement could be done as part of an M Street subway, when you
think about it.
This is a great place to note that I am URGENTLY preparing my
new PURPLE-LINE homepage!! I have been procrastinating for months
and now the chickens are coming home to roost. County is making
a decision this week on an "Inner vs. an Outer line" and I need
to show my stuff to Isiah Leggett online.
John, lemme know if you can help me convert the new image I have.
I may have to tableize it, something I have not had much luck,
least noght on MS explorer.
It's much more swank than my old (now politically outdated)
purple line proposal. Self-explanatory, almost!!
It could influence their decision, it's pretty powerfull stuff.
Similar to what you've advocated, John... Tho I had to be
brought around to viewing the Georgetown Branch as an asset,
by necessity!
-Brian Robinson
wrob
I'd like to make a few observations, one is, would a pedestrian
tunnel between Farragut North and Farragut West (to be renamed
"Farragut Square"??) pass over or under a K Street tunnel?
Second, I'd note for Doug Willinger & like to hear what he thinks
about the proposal to connect the stations based on this info;
i.e. the K street expressway would apparently require interfering
with the *existing* station hall, although I realize the "essential"
infrastructure has been built to accommodate such a big tunneling endeavor.
Couldn't something be worked out here? I for one see huge potential
in connecting the two, especially if an M Street subway is built that
has its *own* Farragut North station at 19th and M.
Also, have a travelator.
-BER (who is busy finishing his new purple line route maps at the 11th hour!!!)
Douglas A. Willinger
> This is all really fascinating information, you guys!
>
> I'd like to make a few observations, one is, would a pedestrian
> tunnel between Farragut North and Farragut West (to be renamed
> "Farragut Square"??) pass over or under a K Street tunnel?
>
> Second, I'd note for Doug Willinger & like to hear what he thinks
> about the proposal to connect the stations based on this info;
> i.e. the K street expressway would apparently require interfering
> with the *existing* station hall, although I realize the "essential"
> infrastructure has been built to accommodate such a big tunneling endeavor.
>
> Couldn't something be worked out here? I for one see huge potential
> in connecting the two, especially if an M Street subway is built that
> has its *own* Farragut North station at 19th and M.
>
> Also, have a travelator.
>
> -BER (who is busy finishing his new purple line route maps at the 11th hour!!!)
>
> John R Cambron wrote:
> >
> > Thomas Smith wrote:
Guys:
We definitely need to plot all of this out in AUTOCAD, and check out
the possibilities.
Please fee free to contact me about this at dougwi...@yahoo.com or
301 891 3676
Gecko
Now there's a brave man!