Master highway builder Robert Moses was anti-speeding
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
and advocate of superhighway construction. He was respected and
consulted worldwide for highway projects his entire life. But many
highway people may not be familiar with the fact that Moses was
strongly against excessive highway speeds and often wrote about it.
He resisted pressure to raise speed limits on parkways directly under
his control.
Moses has been gone for a while now. I took some extracts from one of
his articles and am posting it here for discussion. Obviously his
figures may (or may not) be out of date, so if anyone knows of an
authoritative source of more recent figures, please do share them with
us.
Moses said, "The automobile is a lethal projectile of any make, size,
weight, age, and condition operated by drivers of all sorts, ages,
skills, conditions of health, mental, and moral attributes and with
widely varying reactions, temperaments, susceptibilities,
dependabilities, and responsibilities. Fully half of all our traffic
deaths are due to speed." He advocated "more drastic regulation of
speed without regard to unrealistic, theorectical design limits and
political pressure for higher limits".
Moses provided the following tables comparing speed limits and death
rates:
Speed Date
Limit Rate
40 mph 4.2
45 4.5
50 6.7
55 8.1
Speed Travel time Chances for fatal accident
for 400 miles
45 mph 8 hrs 54 min 1 in 16
55 7 hrs 18 min 1 in 12
65 6 hrs 10 min 1 in 6
"The Pennsylvania Turnpike has a rate of 8.0 per 100,000,000 vehicle
miles. The slightly slower New Jersey Turnpike has a rate of 6.5.
The slower New York State highways is 6.0. On the still slower Long
Island parkways the rate is 1.0."
rsh...@gmail.com
IIRC his son was killed in a car accident, wasn't he?
I have a hunch the above might have something to do with it.
Randy
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> IIRC his son was killed in a car accident, wasn't he?
>
> I have a hunch the above might have something to do with it.
He didn't have any sons, just two daughters.
Anyway, he took this stance (and held onto it), long before.
Ralph Herman
He also did not drive.
Ralph
rsh...@gmail.com
There was something in the Power Broker, maybe it was a son-in-law, or
friend of someone, I forget now, but I remember something, he was
devastated by this young man being killed in a car accident.
rsh...@gmail.com
Correct, but he always had access to wheels as head of the TBTA. Also
remember they did not have the conflict of interest and other such in
those days.
He sat way in the back and was never aware of traffic/
Plus he had B&T officers driving him.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> > He also did not drive.
> Correct, but he always had access to wheels as head of the TBTA. Also
> remember they did not have the conflict of interest and other such in
> those days.
>
> He sat way in the back and was never aware of traffic/
Regardless, Moses knew his stuff better than anyone and still offers
strong statistics and evidence that speeding is dangerous, an attitude
not share by some on this newsgroup. Since they like to quote all the
statistics so carefully to support their case, I was wondering what
they had to say about Moses' position.
elaich
@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
> Speed Travel time Chances for fatal accident for 400 miles
>
> 45 mph 8 hrs 54 min 1 in 16
> 55 7 hrs 18 min 1 in 12
> 65 6 hrs 10 min 1 in 6
Wow! Here I have driven so many hundreds of thousands of miles at 65 or
over, and never knew I had a 1 out of 6 chance of dying every 6 hours and
10 minutes.
Obviously, this data is far out of date. I'm not arguing with the fact that
speed compounds the injury and fatality rate, but this data must be from
1920.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
I agree that that table is a bit strange. I transcribed it as is.
> Obviously, this data is far out of date. I'm not arguing with the fact that
> speed compounds the injury and fatality rate, but this data must be from
> 1920.
Well, people are still dying on highways. And yes, it is true that
the death rate per miles travelled has declined. But to what degree?
And how has it declined, if at all, in relation to speed?
Also, I wonder how the quoted rates for the Pa Tpk, NJ Tpk, and LI
Pkwys compare to today's rates. I would guess the roads are safer
today, but I can't say that with certainty; indeed, it's possible
they're more dangerous.
rsh...@gmail.com
You know what they are going to say, just what Elaich said.
The ones I like best are the ones that always point out the lack of
sl's on SOME sections of the Autobahn.
They would have about as much chance of acquiring a dl in any Western
European country as they do of hitting the lottery,
As has been pointed out dl's in the US are kindergarten stuff compared
to German and the UK.
IOW before you can drive 175 in your Mercedes on the Autobahn, you
have to prove you know how to do it.
Floyd Rogers
> hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote
>> Speed Travel time Chances for fatal accident for 400 miles
>>
>> 45 mph 8 hrs 54 min 1 in 16
>> 55 7 hrs 18 min 1 in 12
>> 65 6 hrs 10 min 1 in 6
>
> Wow! Here I have driven so many hundreds of thousands of miles at 65 or
> over, and never knew I had a 1 out of 6 chance of dying every 6 hours and
> 10 minutes.
>
> Obviously, this data is far out of date. I'm not arguing with the fact
> that
> speed compounds the injury and fatality rate, but this data must be from
> 1920.
Hard to say, as it's unattributed. There's clearly a direct relationship
between speed and crashes/injuries/fatalities, but I haven't seen anything
that puts such "hard" numbers on it. A good survey article is:
http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/speed/speed.htm
It's *QUITE* clear that differences in speed between cars is by far
the most significant cause of crashes. This is the clear rationale for
KRETP and similar strategies of separation.
FloydR
Brent Jonas
Didn't the Federal Highway Administration come out with a report in
1995, proclaiming 1 death for every 103 million miles travelled on the
Interstate Highway System? I don't have a source..
-Brent
The Chief Instigator
Probably so, since Dale (the wife) and I took 22 hours to get to Benham from
here last month, and it was all freeway (except for feeding the car, and
dinner on Saturday night in Winnie and breakfast in Gadsden early Sunday
morning) up to Caryville - and most of that was at least 60-65, even at
night. The return trip was the reverse, until Meridian, where we took I-20
west to Shreveport and then US 79 down to Carthage and then US 59 for the
home stretch, and it got dark on us west of Monroe...but traffic was running
at least 65 most of the way, save for the slowdown in Bossier City and
Shreveport (Saturday night and casinos), but 59 in north Harris County was
almost full at 3 AM on a Sunday, and no one was slowing down below 65. I
don't think I want to know what Moses would have said of that.
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (pat...@io.com) Houston, Texas
www.io.com/~patrick/aeros.php (TCI's 2008-09 Houston Aeros) AA#2273
LAST GAME: Rockford 5, Houston 2 (April 25)
NEXT GAME: The 2008-09 season opener in early October
GuyP...@gmail.com
Not to mention that the vehicles themselves offered almost no
protection whatsoever in a crash: no seat belts, hard, blut surfaces
everywhere.
I admire Moses for his will, but his ideas on roadway design and the
automobile as a practical means of transport befit those of a non-
driver.
Guy Olsen, PE(NJ), PTOE
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> I admire Moses for his will, but his ideas on roadway design and the
> automobile as a practical means of transport befit those of a non-
> driver.
In what way?
rsh...@gmail.com
You have to remember he had to deal with the materials and engineering
of his times, not today.
His engineering was superb given the day.
With today's materials etc could you imagine.
For instance the connection between the Major Deegan and the CBX
considering it was designed and built late 50's early 60's is
remarkable.
But unfortunately, the bridge decks are in horrible shape and it is
going to cost a lot of money to bring them up to current standards.
He didn't have to build the CBX to current interstate standards.
He built it to the standard of the 50's.
Today you would do a lot of things differently.
But given the 21st c attitudes in NYC and const costs you probably
could not do it all.
Arif Khokar
> Regardless, Moses knew his stuff better than anyone and still offers
> strong statistics and evidence that speeding is dangerous, an attitude
> not share by some on this newsgroup.
He never had first hand experience driving and that's enough to discount
his opinions on an activity he never engaged in.
Driving isn't nearly as dangerous as he made it out to be, and someone
who claims that one has a 1 in 6 chance of dying in a fatal crash at 65
mph would be ridiculed, and rightfully so.
Oh, and if you want real statistics, rather than what Moses cited, go to
http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov
Sir Ray
model year - there were some changes between years) was 45mph, and a
stock 1927 Model A was 65mph. The early '30s Ford V-8 must have been
faster, but didn't it still use mechanical brakes (good luck getting
that to stop on a dime)?
His original parkway designs, while pretty I suppose, were really not
designed for heavy volume, high-speed traffic, and, for example, the
Southern Parkway was modified a number of times during his reign, such
as basically building a parallel road (new set of lanes) during the
1950s (shame they didn't go further with the 8 lane expansion, and
straightening the parkway, but I digress).
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> > Regardless, Moses knew his stuff better than anyone and still offers
> > strong statistics and evidence that speeding is dangerous, an attitude
> > not share by some on this newsgroup.
> He never had first hand experience driving and that's enough to discount
> his opinions on an activity he never engaged in.
Why should being an actual "driver", as opposed to motor vehicle
passenger, disqualify him on this issue?
The vast majority of us have never played or coached professional
sports but we all certainly have very strong opinions about it. What
qualifies us lay people to judge a coach or player when we've never
been "down in the arena"? Likewise, the vast majority of us have
never walked in space nor ever will, but we have opinons about NASA
and the space program none the less.
In contrast, Moses certainly spent his share of time on highways, as a
traveler, as an administrator, and as a builder. I'm certainly
willing to listen to the thoughts of an equivalent highway
professional.
In any event, we are not discussing the driving "experience", but
rather the safety of roads. If I tell you I've driven safely at 100
mph, is that adequate "authority" to say driving at 100 mph is
perfectly safe? Of course not.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Well, apparently the maximum speed on a stock Model T (not sure which
> model year - there were some changes between years) was 45mph, and a
> stock 1927 Model A was 65mph. The early '30s Ford V-8 must have been
> faster, but didn't it still use mechanical brakes (good luck getting
> that to stop on a dime)?
Well, given that Moses was comparing safety between the Pennsylvania
and New Jersey turnpikes, I don't think very many Model Ts or even
Model As were in use on those roads.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> Oh, and if you want real statistics, rather than what Moses cited, go tohttp://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov
Didn't see anything there about fatality rates, crash rates, and
severity rates as related to speed. Nor didn't see anything about the
Pa or NJ Tpk rates.
dougwi...@yahoo.com
A common flaw with his highways was placing an overpass over a
mainline highway just after an onramp that's too short and with the
overpass blocking lengening the ramp.
Another are the 2 into 1 merges.
Just think about the southbound Van Wyck just south of the Kew Gardens
interchange.
Douglas A. Willinger
http://wwwtripwithinthebeltway.blogspot.com/
http://cos-mobile.blogspot.com/
Arif Khokar
>>> Regardless, Moses knew his stuff better than anyone and still offers
>>> strong statistics and evidence that speeding is dangerous, an attitude
>>> not share by some on this newsgroup.
>> He never had first hand experience driving and that's enough to discount
>> his opinions on an activity he never engaged in.
> Why should being an actual "driver", as opposed to motor vehicle
> passenger, disqualify him on this issue?
>
> The vast majority of us have never played or coached professional
> sports but we all certainly have very strong opinions about it.
Which doesn't make us any more qualified as compared to a professional
athlete or coach in that respect.
> What qualifies us lay people to judge a coach or player when we've
> never been "down in the arena"? Likewise, the vast majority of us
> have never walked in space nor ever will, but we have opinons
> about NASA and the space program none the less.
But not qualified opinions. I'd rather base rules and methods on sound
scientific and engineering principles, not on uninformed opinion. Are
you advocating the latter, or the former?
> In contrast, Moses certainly spent his share of time on highways, as a
> traveler, as an administrator, and as a builder.
Sorry, but a Ph. D. in political science doesn't make him qualified to
make judgments on matters of driving *especially* when he has no first
hand experience in it.
> In any event, we are not discussing the driving "experience", but
> rather the safety of roads. If I tell you I've driven safely at 100
> mph, is that adequate "authority" to say driving at 100 mph is
> perfectly safe? Of course not.
But you're willing to state that 100 mph is inherently dangerous, but
driving at some other speed isn't. I say it depends on conditions, and
those with experience tend to choose speeds that are reasonable and
prudent and the vast majority tend to stay within 10 mph of each other's
speeds.
>> Oh, and if you want real statistics, rather than what Moses cited, go
>> to http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov
I suggest you take a look that the link above.
1100GS_rider
> The vast majority of us have never played or coached professional
> sports but we all certainly have very strong opinions about it. What
> qualifies us lay people to judge a coach or player when we've never
> been "down in the arena"?
Nothing. In that sense it's a good analogy.
Fans are almost completely clueless about things like football play
calling. Not that every coach is a genius, but they all shake their
heads at the nonsense that casual fans suggest.
--
You can trust me; I'm not like the others.
Arif Khokar
>> http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov
> Didn't see anything there about fatality rates, crash rates, and
> severity rates as related to speed.
You can run queries based on road type. Highways typically have speeds
that are higher than surface streets. There was another resource that
had VMT figures by road classification (which allowed for calculation of
crash or fatality rates for a given road class). Search for posts by me
from 2002 with the term fatality rate or crash rate and you'll probably
find it.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
Could I get the rates for the PA and NJ turnpikes? I'd like to
compare those to Moses' figures.
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com
> > What qualifies us lay people to judge a coach or player when we've
> > never been "down in the arena"? Likewise, the vast majority of us
> > have never walked in space nor ever will, but we have opinons
> > about NASA and the space program none the less.
>
> But not qualified opinions. I'd rather base rules and methods on sound
> scientific and engineering principles, not on uninformed opinion. Are
> you advocating the latter, or the former?
I advocate sound scientific and engineering principles. My point is
that they're not developed merely by driving a car. Indeed,
uninformed opinion comes from driving.
> Sorry, but a Ph. D. in political science doesn't make him qualified to
> make judgments on matters of driving *especially* when he has no first
> hand experience in it.
Moses did not pick numbers out of the air, they were developed in
light of experience by professionals.
Obviously Moses, as head pesron, did not personally draft blueprints
(nor pour concrete either).
But Moses was known for picking top flight professionals for his
team. (Caro). Moses managed to build things no one else could do,
and do them on time and on budget. Moses was often solicited to write
articles on highways. Lastly, while Moses was criticized for many
things, I am not aware of him ever being called a lousy highway
building or administrator.
Consequently, when Moses says something, I think it bears listening.
I'm quite confident it was based on solid engineering.
> But you're willing to state that 100 mph is inherently dangerous, but
> driving at some other speed isn't. I say it depends on conditions, and
> those with experience tend to choose speeds that are reasonable and
> prudent and the vast majority tend to stay within 10 mph of each other's
> speeds.
If everyone drove in a way that was "reasonable and prudent" we would
never have any accidents and of course no fatalities.
But we do have accidents, lots and lots of them. And we have people
getting killed.
So. it would certainly seem that Moses' suggestion that higher speeds
are more dangerous bears discussion.
I would only suggest to use accident rates and severity rates instead
of fatalities. On some highways the fatality rates are so low as to
be statistically meaningless. Further, radically improved vehicle
engineering has reduced fatalities.
> >> Oh, and if you want real statistics, rather than what Moses cited, go
> >> tohttp://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov
>
> I suggest you take a look that the link above.
Thanks for the reference
Arif Khokar
> Could I get the rates for the PA and NJ turnpikes? I'd like to
> compare those to Moses' figures.
Perhaps the respective authorities keep track of such statistics and can
make them available to you if you request them. I know that WV made
highway fatality rates available online
<http://www.wvdot.com/3_roadways/3d10b_trafficdiv.htm> but they haven't
posted any new information since the 2003 figures.