Three sign questions prompted by the MUTCD
Marc Fannin
questions while perusing it:
1) It lists "DEAD END" and "NO OUTLET" as warning signs to place at the
entrance of a way from which there is no exit, but does not say which should
be used when, implying that they both can be used for the same purpose. Is
there a difference? Is it up to the local sign crews? I note that I grew up
around "DEAD END" signs in SW Michigan, but "NO OUTLET" signs abound in NE
Ohio.
2) "ALL WAY" or "x-WAY": In SW Michigan, these signs below the "STOP" sign are
generally the same width as the sign itself, the only place I have seen this
practice. All other ststes seem to use a "tag" about half the length of one
side of the octagon. Anywhere else where the "long" supplement is used?
3) Yet again, I turn to a practice of the homeland of Blossom Country,
"EXCEPT RIGHT TURN" signs. These are placed under a yield sign where the
mainline turns right at a three- or four-way intersection. The opposing
traffic and the traffic on the left (if a four-way) have "STOP" signs, the
traffic on the right has no sign, or maybe a flashing yellow light if the
intersection is controlled by flashing lights. This appears to be an
effective way to keep congestion at a minimum, yet I could not find the
"EXCEPT RIGHT TURN" sign in the MUTCD. What's up? Maybe it's in a later
revision?
--
Marc Fannin
musx...@kent.edu
http://www.personal.kent.edu/~musxf579/home.html
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D Outen
Marc Fannin wrote in message <6o8bva$khn$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I got my hands on the 1988 Edition of the MUTCD, and thought of three
>questions while perusing it:
>
>1) It lists "DEAD END" and "NO OUTLET" as warning signs to place at the
>entrance of a way from which there is no exit, but does not say which
should
>be used when, implying that they both can be used for the same purpose.
Is
>there a difference? Is it up to the local sign crews? I note that I
grew up
>around "DEAD END" signs in SW Michigan, but "NO OUTLET" signs abound in
NE
>Ohio.
>
I've always taken dead end to mean there is but one street for which you
can travel to the end and return. No outlet would indicate that you
have a choice of several streets past the sign from which to choose but
to continue your journey you will have to exit through the street you
have entered.
Dave
Mike Crain
--
Mike A. Crain
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micrain{at}erinet.com
Marc Fannin <musx...@kent.edu> wrote in article
<6o8bva$khn$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
: I got my hands on the 1988 Edition of the MUTCD, and thought of three
: questions while perusing it:,
<snip>:
: 3) Yet again, I turn to a practice of the homeland of Blossom Country,
:
JVincent
>
> I got my hands on the 1988 Edition of the MUTCD, and thought of three
> questions while perusing it:
>
> entrance of a way from which there is no exit, but does not say which should
> be used when, implying that they both can be used for the same purpose. Is
> there a difference? Is it up to the local sign crews? I note that I grew up
> around "DEAD END" signs in SW Michigan, but "NO OUTLET" signs abound in NE
> Ohio.
Several years ago I heard that a few communities opposed the use of the
phrase "dead end", claiming that it had too negative a connotation --
dead-end neighborhood, that kind of thing. People successfully got the
signs changed to "no outlet". The trend seems to have snowballed around
the country; nowadays I see a lot more "no outlet" than "dead end"
signs.
Just today I photographed a different style sign here in Chicago. It's a
yellow diamond sign, and contains an arrow curved in a 270-degree loop
surrounding the phrase "CUL-DE-SAC". Under the arrow and "CUL-DE-SAC"
are the words "NO OUTLET". It's a good design IMO; it adds a graphical
element (the arrow) not found on the standard signs. (BTW, I've seen
signs in Quebec that read "cul-de-sac", appropriately enough.)
Whaddya think, does the "CUL-DE-SAC" sign belong in my BEGIN and END
Gallery once I get the film developed? ;-)
--
M. Steffora, Chicago, Illinois; jvincent at mcs dot net
JVincent's Road House: http://www.mcs.net/~jvincent
Where life is a highway, every day is a winding road, and I'm
going to Carolina in my mind.
Steve Riner
Mike Crain <pastor...@juno.com> wrote in article
<01bdad0a$c59e3540$8e75...@micrain.erinet.com>...
> Does anyone have a pic/info on #3?
> : "EXCEPT RIGHT TURN" signs. These are placed under a yield sign where
the
> : mainline turns right at a three- or four-way intersection. The
opposing
> : traffic and the traffic on the left (if a four-way) have "STOP" signs,
> the
> : traffic on the right has no sign, or maybe a flashing yellow light if
the
> : intersection is controlled by flashing lights. This appears to be an
> : effective way to keep congestion at a minimum, yet I could not find the
> : "EXCEPT RIGHT TURN" sign in the MUTCD. What's up? Maybe it's in a
later
> : revision?
I've seen these in Wisconsin where the marked route turns right. The sign
under the STOP sign, however, reads "RIGHT TURN NO STOP."
--
Steve Riner
Columbia Heights MN
Minnesota highways page is at:
http://www.frontiernet.net/~riner/main_hwy.htm
*******************************************************
Science is the window into the mind of God
*******************************************************
Matthew E. Salek
>
> I got my hands on the 1988 Edition of the MUTCD, and thought of three
> questions while perusing it:
>
> 1) It lists "DEAD END" and "NO OUTLET" as warning signs to place at the
> entrance of a way from which there is no exit, but does not say which should
> be used when, implying that they both can be used for the same purpose. Is
> there a difference? Is it up to the local sign crews? I note that I grew up
> around "DEAD END" signs in SW Michigan, but "NO OUTLET" signs abound in NE
> Ohio.
Regional/local preference. I saw mainly "Dead end" signs back in Minnesota and
Wisconsin, while Fort Collins here uses only "No outlet" signs. I've heard
people get upset because "Dead end" isn't PC.
> 2) "ALL WAY" or "x-WAY": In SW Michigan, these signs below the "STOP" sign are
> generally the same width as the sign itself, the only place I have seen this
> practice. All other ststes seem to use a "tag" about half the length of one
> side of the octagon. Anywhere else where the "long" supplement is used?
> 3) Yet again, I turn to a practice of the homeland of Blossom Country,
> "EXCEPT RIGHT TURN" signs. These are placed under a yield sign where the
> mainline turns right at a three- or four-way intersection. The opposing
> traffic and the traffic on the left (if a four-way) have "STOP" signs, the
> traffic on the right has no sign, or maybe a flashing yellow light if the
> intersection is controlled by flashing lights. This appears to be an
> effective way to keep congestion at a minimum, yet I could not find the
> "EXCEPT RIGHT TURN" sign in the MUTCD. What's up? Maybe it's in a later
> revision?
Minnesota and Wisconsin would use "RIGHT TURN NO STOP" underneath a stop sign
to indicate you could just go flying around the corner.
--
Later! - Matthew E. Salek, future civil engineer at Colorado State Univ.
Matthew Salek (Info) Highway - my web site:
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~mattes
pki...@brunnet.net
jvin...@mcs.net wrote:
>
> Just today I photographed a different style sign here in Chicago. It's a
> yellow diamond sign, and contains an arrow curved in a 270-degree loop
> surrounding the phrase "CUL-DE-SAC". Under the arrow and "CUL-DE-SAC"
> are the words "NO OUTLET". It's a good design IMO; it adds a graphical
> element (the arrow) not found on the standard signs. (BTW, I've seen
> signs in Quebec that read "cul-de-sac", appropriately enough.)
>
> Whaddya think, does the "CUL-DE-SAC" sign belong in my BEGIN and END
> Gallery once I get the film developed? ;-)
New Brunswick uses the same 270-degree loop signs, only that they're white on
green. An auxiliary plate below (also white-on-green) says "CUL-DE-SAC".
However, Fredericton city signs use the normal yellow diamond reading "DEAD
END". I was in Quebec yesterday, and the signs do read "CUL_DE_SAC", just like
what is used in New Brunswick.
A few other unrelated notes from the first part of my trip to PQ and ON:
-- There is an operating drive-in theater just off A-20 in Longueil, Quebec.
-- Montreal uses exclusively vertically mounted traffic lights, while the rest
of the province uses horizontally mounted signals overhead.
-- The KFC in Renfrew, Ontario, still says Kentucky Fried Chicken on the
building, but the roadside sign says KFC now.
J.P. Kirby
currently visiting relatives in Huntsville, Ontario
Michael G. Koerner
----------
In article <35A9064F...@engr.colostate.edu>, "Matthew E. Salek"
<mat...@engr.colostate.edu> wrote:
>Marc Fannin wrote:
>>
>> I got my hands on the 1988 Edition of the MUTCD, and thought of three
>> questions while perusing it:
>>
>> 1) It lists "DEAD END" and "NO OUTLET" as warning signs to place at the
>> entrance of a way from which there is no exit, but does not say which
should
>> be used when, implying that they both can be used for the same purpose.
Is
>> there a difference? Is it up to the local sign crews? I note that I
grew up
>> around "DEAD END" signs in SW Michigan, but "NO OUTLET" signs abound in
NE
>> Ohio.
>
>Regional/local preference. I saw mainly "Dead end" signs back in Minnesota
and
>Wisconsin, while Fort Collins here uses only "No outlet" signs. I've heard
>people get upset because "Dead end" isn't PC.
I have always preferred 'NO OUTLET' to 'DEAD END' in that INHO, the former
more accurately describes what is being said.
____________________________________________________________________________
Regards,
Michael G. Koerner
Appleton, WI
***NOTICE*** SPAMfilter in use, please remove ALL 'i's from the return
address to reply. ***NOTICE***
____________________________________________________________________________
Mike McManus
pki...@brunnet.net wrote:
> A few other unrelated notes from the first part of my trip to PQ and ON:
> [...]
> -- The KFC in Renfrew, Ontario, still says Kentucky Fried Chicken on the
> building, but the roadside sign says KFC now.
I wonder if the Francophone parts of Canada have PFK instead of KFC? A long time
ago I saw a sign in Niagara Falls, Ontario that spelled out both "Kentucky Fried
Chicken" and "Poulet Frit a la Kentucky".
--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Mike McManus _/ home: mmcm...@frontiernet.net _/
_/ Rochester, NY _/ work: mcm...@kodak.com _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
pki...@brunnet.net
mmcm...@frontiernet.net wrote:
>
>
> pki...@brunnet.net wrote:
>
> > A few other unrelated notes from the first part of my trip to PQ and ON:
> > [...]
> > -- The KFC in Renfrew, Ontario, still says Kentucky Fried Chicken on the
> > building, but the roadside sign says KFC now.
>
> I wonder if the Francophone parts of Canada have PFK instead of KFC? A long
time
> ago I saw a sign in Niagara Falls, Ontario that spelled out both "Kentucky
Fried
> Chicken" and "Poulet Frit a la Kentucky".
>
>
Yes, they do. On our trip, when we stopped for supper in predominantly
francophone Edmundston, New Brunswick, I suggested to my family that we eat
at PFK. :-)
J.P. Kirby
H.B. Elkins
>Does anyone have a pic/info on #3?
Several examples can be found on US 60 in Kenova, W. Va. The route
makes a couple of 90-degree turns just west of the Big Sandy River
bridge into Kentucky.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
H.B. Elkins -- Winchester, KY
"You must have the courage to believe the truth!" -- Rush H. Limbaugh III
Kentucky Wildcats Basketball & #3 Dale Earnhardt -- A Championship Combination
mailto:hbel...@mis.net <or> mailto:HB...@aol.com
(Say "nyet" to spam! Please note: there is a spam-buster in my E-mail address.
To reply by E-mail,use one of the addresses above)
http://www.users.mis.net/~hbelkins (last updated 6/10/98)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
H.B. Elkins
>Whaddya think, does the "CUL-DE-SAC" sign belong in my BEGIN and END
>Gallery once I get the film developed? ;-)
Of course. The more road signs there are out there on the 'Net, the
better!
I have a couple of rolls of film to be developed myself. I'm just
going to start putting up photos of signage at various highway
junctions, just for the heck of it!
jbej...@my-dejanews.com
musx...@kent.edu (Marc Fannin) wrote:
> I got my hands on the 1988 Edition of the MUTCD, and thought of three
> questions while perusing it:
>
> 1) It lists "DEAD END" and "NO OUTLET" as warning signs to place at the
> entrance of a way from which there is no exit, but does not say which should
> be used when, implying that they both can be used for the same purpose. Is
> there a difference? Is it up to the local sign crews? I note that I
grew up
> around "DEAD END" signs in SW Michigan, but "NO OUTLET" signs abound in NE
> Ohio.
>
In Northern California, the most common sign for a cul-de-sac or similar
street without an outlet is "NOT A THROUGH STREET". "DEAD END" signs are
non-existent here, and "NO OUTLET" signs, while present, are rare.
--John Bejarano.
nwp...@student.berklee.edu
"D Outen" <ZZdou...@supernews.com> wrote:
>
> Marc Fannin wrote in message <6o8bva$khn$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >questions while perusing it:
> >
> >1) It lists "DEAD END" and "NO OUTLET" as warning signs to place at the
> >entrance of a way from which there is no exit, but does not say which
> should
> >be used when, implying that they both can be used for the same purpose.
> Is
> >there a difference? Is it up to the local sign crews? I note that I
> grew up
> >around "DEAD END" signs in SW Michigan, but "NO OUTLET" signs abound in
> NE
> >Ohio.
> >
>
> can travel to the end and return. No outlet would indicate that you
> have a choice of several streets past the sign from which to choose but
> to continue your journey you will have to exit through the street you
> have entered.
>
> Dave
Right. NO OUTLET also seems to mean there is a cul-de-sac if no other streets
intersecting, or the street ends into a parking lot, or becomes one way the
opposite way, or anything other than a simple...well, dead end.
Of course, suburban tract streets in my area often lack any kind of sign
indicating no exit, due to anticipated later completion, and these same
streets often have large trees directly at the end.
NP
Tom Ketchum
> >>
> >> I got my hands on the 1988 Edition of the MUTCD, and thought of three
> >> questions while perusing it:
> >>
> >> 1) It lists "DEAD END" and "NO OUTLET" as warning signs to place at the
> >> entrance of a way from which there is no exit, but does not say which
> should
> >> be used when, implying that they both can be used for the same purpose.
> Is
> >> there a difference? Is it up to the local sign crews? I note that I
I would suggest there is a difference- DEAD END means just that, the road ends.
NO OUTLET, on the other hand, can allow for intersecting streets which do not
connect to any other road leaving the area. The only outlet being the road into
the maze.
Steve Riner
pki...@brunnet.net wrote in article <6od75l$bp8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> In article <35A954D8...@frontiernet.net>,
> mmcm...@frontiernet.net wrote:
> >
> >
> > pki...@brunnet.net wrote:
> >
> > > A few other unrelated notes from the first part of my trip to PQ and
ON:
> > > [...]
> > > -- The KFC in Renfrew, Ontario, still says Kentucky Fried Chicken on
the
> > > building, but the roadside sign says KFC now.
> >
> > I wonder if the Francophone parts of Canada have PFK instead of KFC? A
long
> time
> > ago I saw a sign in Niagara Falls, Ontario that spelled out both
"Kentucky
> Fried
> > Chicken" and "Poulet Frit a la Kentucky".
> >
> >
>
> Yes, they do. On our trip, when we stopped for supper in predominantly
> francophone Edmundston, New Brunswick, I suggested to my family that we
eat
> at PFK. :-)
So, using bilingual Ottawa street signs as a guide (Rue Main Street), the
Colonel should be found at Poulet Frit a la Kentucky Fried Chicken.
pki...@brunnet.net
> > I got my hands on the 1988 Edition of the MUTCD, and thought of three
> > questions while perusing it:
> >
> > 1) It lists "DEAD END" and "NO OUTLET" as warning signs to place at the
> > entrance of a way from which there is no exit, but does not say which should
> > be used when, implying that they both can be used for the same purpose. Is
> > there a difference? Is it up to the local sign crews? I note that I
> > around "DEAD END" signs in SW Michigan, but "NO OUTLET" signs abound in NE
> > Ohio.
> >
>
> street without an outlet is "NOT A THROUGH STREET". "DEAD END" signs are
> non-existent here, and "NO OUTLET" signs, while present, are rare.
>
>
Nova Scotia and Ontario, and a couple of towns in new Brunswick, both use "NO
EXIT" signs, which are black lettering on a yellow square. The only place in
Canada I've seen "DEAD END" is New Brunswick. The bilingual NBDOT signs say
DEAD END- CUL-DE-SAC.
J.P. Kirby