Harwich - Amsterdam - Berlin
use...@isbd.co.uk
We live very near Harwich so Harwich->Hook of Holland is an attractive
alternative to going to London, getting from Liverpool St. to Waterloo
and then taking Eurostar to Brussels for the sleeper to Berlin.
So, how practical is it to go from Hook of Holland to Amsterdam and
then take a night train to Berlin? Are there any good deals to be had
on special fares etc.? We had a fantastic trip to Spain/Morocco last
year using the Elipsos TrenHotel and the special fare for couples in
'deluxe' made it pretty good value.
Since we're going on to Poland as well (Warsaw) after spending a week
in/around Berlin would it pay to get some sort of discount pass?
I'm off to have a play on the DB web site but any insights that anyone
can offer woud be very welcome.
--
Chris Green
iMark
> We are planning a trip to Berlin and Poland this summer in June/July.
> We live very near Harwich so Harwich->Hook of Holland is an attractive
> alternative to going to London, getting from Liverpool St. to Waterloo
> and then taking Eurostar to Brussels for the sleeper to Berlin.
>
> So, how practical is it to go from Hook of Holland to Amsterdam and
> then take a night train to Berlin?
Not practical at all since the night train to Berlin from Amsterdam was
withdrawn a couple of years ago.
> Since we're going on to Poland as well (Warsaw) after spending a week
> in/around Berlin would it pay to get some sort of discount pass?
There are 3 direct day trains from Amsterdam to Berlin.
iMark
Ross
<dsnpvh$1s9$1...@slavica.ukpost.com>, seen in misc.transport.rail.europe:
[....]
> So, how practical is it to go from Hook of Holland to Amsterdam and
> then take a night train to Berlin? Are there any good deals to be had
> on special fares etc.?
Possibly teaching grandmother to suck eggs, but have you checked out
what the Man in Seat Sixty-one has to say?
He points to <http://www.dutchflyer.co.uk/> for East Anglia - Harwich
- Hook - Any Dutch Station...
--
Ross, in Lincoln, most likely being cynical or sarcastic, as ever.
Reply-to will bounce. Replace the junk-trap with my name to e-mail me.
Demonstration of poor photography at <http://www.rosspix.me.uk>
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Rian van der Borgt
>On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 17:06:57 +0000 (UTC), use...@isbd.co.uk wrote in
><dsnpvh$1s9$1...@slavica.ukpost.com>, seen in misc.transport.rail.europe:
>>then take a night train to Berlin? Are there any good deals to be had
>>on special fares etc.?
>
>Possibly teaching grandmother to suck eggs, but have you checked out
>what the Man in Seat Sixty-one has to say?
>
><http://www.seat61.com/>
>
>He points to <http://www.dutchflyer.co.uk/> for East Anglia - Harwich
>- Hook - Any Dutch Station...
This should be compared to normal fare to Hoek van Holland and then a
Sparpreis 50 from Hoek van Holland to Germany or Poland.
It also depends on the trains the OP wants to take. There's indeed no
night train Amsterdam - Berlin anymore, but you can still take one in
Germany. Another possibility is to go to Brussels or Liège and take the
night train there.
Regards,
Rian
--
Rian van der Borgt, Leuven, Belgium.
e-mail: rvdb...@evonet.be www: http://www.evonet.be/~rvdborgt/
Attention: new e-mail and web address because my provider found it
necessary to change its name.
use...@isbd.co.uk
> <use...@isbd.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > We are planning a trip to Berlin and Poland this summer in June/July.
> > We live very near Harwich so Harwich->Hook of Holland is an attractive
> > alternative to going to London, getting from Liverpool St. to Waterloo
> > and then taking Eurostar to Brussels for the sleeper to Berlin.
> >
> > So, how practical is it to go from Hook of Holland to Amsterdam and
> > then take a night train to Berlin?
>
> Not practical at all since the night train to Berlin from Amsterdam was
> withdrawn a couple of years ago.
>
Hook of Holland to Berlin goes via Brussels or via even more devious
routes.
It means that taking the car is more attractive really. :-(
--
Chris Green
use...@isbd.co.uk
> On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 17:06:57 +0000 (UTC), use...@isbd.co.uk wrote in
> <dsnpvh$1s9$1...@slavica.ukpost.com>, seen in misc.transport.rail.europe:
>
> [....]
> > So, how practical is it to go from Hook of Holland to Amsterdam and
> > then take a night train to Berlin? Are there any good deals to be had
> > on special fares etc.?
>
> Possibly teaching grandmother to suck eggs, but have you checked out
> what the Man in Seat Sixty-one has to say?
>
> <http://www.seat61.com/>
>
> He points to <http://www.dutchflyer.co.uk/> for East Anglia - Harwich
> - Hook - Any Dutch Station...
Yes, that's where I started, however getting from 'any Dutch station'
to Berlin doesn't seem to be particularly easy.
--
Chris Green
rice...@gmx.de
Hoek van Holland Haven 13.02.06 ab 20:35 2 RE 4179
RegionalExpress
Rotterdam Centraal 13.02.06 an 21:06
Rotterdam Centraal 13.02.06 ab 21:24 4 IC 643 InterCity
Bruxelles-Midi 13.02.06 an 23:14
Bruxelles-Midi 13.02.06 ab 23:41 NZ 243 DB NachtZug
Berlin Zoologischer Garten 14.02.06 an 08:05 2
Day train
Harwich International 13.02.06 ab 10:40 Ship
Hoek van Holland Haven 13.02.06 an 15:20
Hoek van Holland Haven 13.02.06 ab 15:58 3 452 Schnellzug
Rotterdam Centraal 13.02.06 an 16:24 8
Rotterdam Centraal 13.02.06 ab 16:37 12 IC 12561 InterCity
Amersfoort 13.02.06 an 17:32 1
Amersfoort 13.02.06 ab 17:54 2 IC 147 InterCity
Hannover Hbf 13.02.06 an 21:18 9
Hannover Hbf 13.02.06 ab 21:31 9 ICE 645
Berlin Zoologischer Garten 13.02.06 an 23:03 2
Matthew Geier
> So, how practical is it to go from Hook of Holland to Amsterdam and
> then take a night train to Berlin? Are there any good deals to be had
> on special fares etc.? We had a fantastic trip to Spain/Morocco last
> year using the Elipsos TrenHotel and the special fare for couples in
> 'deluxe' made it pretty good value.
Did part of that route in reverse last year, Stayed in Den Haag, caught
train to Rotterdam, wandered around Rotterdam a bit and then got another
train out to the Hook of Holland and got on the Ferry. The railway station
is almost part of the ferry terminal. I would expect doing the reverse to
be trivial. The Hook of Holland railway station looks like a minor
suburban halt though - no staff, it's electronic ticket machines only.
At Harwich we caught a local train to Harwich town and stayed there a few
days.
Boy, the British rail system was a shock after the ruthlessly efficient
Dutch system. Harwich Port - no staff (only one person on duty, tied up
with a lost bagage problem), no working indicators, 3 platforms. Asked
some one standing on a platform which way to Harwich Town, stuck some
loose change from a previous visit to England into the ATR machine and
never saw another member of railway staff again. The guard didn't come to
check for fares from the Port and Harwich Town station looks like a
Haunted House.
Arthur Figgis
<mat...@wibble.sleeper.apana.org.au> wrote:
> Boy, the British rail system was a shock after the ruthlessly efficient
>Dutch system. Harwich Port - no staff (only one person on duty, tied up
>with a lost bagage problem), no working indicators, 3 platforms. Asked
>some one standing on a platform which way to Harwich Town, stuck some
>loose change from a previous visit to England into the ATR machine and
>never saw another member of railway staff again. The guard didn't come to
>check for fares from the Port and Harwich Town station looks like a
>Haunted House.
I think having no staff is considered efficient. If they don't exist,
you don't have to pay them, so you save money, so it is "more
efficient" (at least in the short term, and Britain doesn't do
long-term thinking).
You could travel a fair way, especially on an evening or a Sunday, and
not see (m)any staff.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Keith Anderson
<mat...@wibble.sleeper.apana.org.au> wrote:
> Harwich Town station looks like a
>Haunted House.
If you look at a map of that part of the world, and imagine a resort
full of eldely people......you will understand the local joke:
Harwich for the Continent.
Frinton for the Incontinent.
:-)
Keith, Bristol, UK
Remove numbers for email replies
Neil Williams
> This does not excuse lack of information display, of course.
A permanent sign would do - as I recall, the local services always use
the (same) two sides of the island platform, while the boat trains (if
they still run, they were always a bit hidden) used the one adjacent to
the ticket office.
Neil
use...@isbd.co.uk
>
> Arthur Figgis schrieb:
>
>
> > I think having no staff is considered efficient. If they don't exist,
> > you don't have to pay them, so you save money, so it is "more
> > efficient"
>
>
> International? How many employees do you want to pay for greeting them?
>
I think you might get a few more if use of the route was encouraged
more.
> This does not excuse lack of information display, of course.
>
>
> Hans-Joachim
--
Chris Green
Phil Richards
> Yes, indeed. Which means advertisement and more opportunities to buy the
> tickets.
Possibly tickets are available from all stations in the TOC (One Railway)
that participates in this through rail-sea-rail offer. Certainly they are
available at London Liverpool Street.
As for the rest of the country, it's pretty much a level playing field for
all international rail tickets - the domestic UK TOCs simply don't sell
them :-(
Not sure the situation in the Netherlands, as I understand it NS too aren't
great ones for selling international rail products from many of it's
stations.
--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
David Eerdmans
>
> Not sure the situation in the Netherlands, as I understand it NS too aren't
> great ones for selling international rail products from many of it's
> stations.
Tickets without reservation to Germany of Belgium are quite easy to buy
(if you know what you want/need): you can get them at any ticket office
and even at many automatic ticket machines.
A ticket to further destinations is more complicated. Most international
ticket offices closed. The ones that still exist often have long waiting
times. In addition, if you want a ticket that's somewhat more
complicated than a straightforward Thalys or E* ticket, you'll often be
confronted with incompetent staff...
I usually prefer buying my international tickets through German ticket
offices or through the Treinreiswinkel, a private international booking
office and travel agency, specialised in rail travel.
Regards,
David
Phil Richards
> Phil Richards schreef:
>> Not sure the situation in the Netherlands, as I understand it NS too aren't
>> great ones for selling international rail products from many of it's
>> stations.
>
> Tickets without reservation to Germany of Belgium are quite easy to buy
> (if you know what you want/need): you can get them at any ticket office
> and even at many automatic ticket machines.
A couple of years ago I had no luck in buying a ticket from Enschede
(Grenze, not the station as I had a pass for the Netherlands) through to
Schwerte in Germany. The best they could offer me was from Enschede station
itself to Dortmund where I had to re-book.
David Eerdmans
> David Eerdmans wrote:
>
>>Tickets without reservation to Germany of Belgium are quite easy to buy
>>(if you know what you want/need): you can get them at any ticket office
>>and even at many automatic ticket machines.
>
>
> A couple of years ago I had no luck in buying a ticket from Enschede
> (Grenze, not the station as I had a pass for the Netherlands) through to
> Schwerte in Germany. The best they could offer me was from Enschede station
> itself to Dortmund where I had to re-book.
The number of stations you can buy a ticket to is indeed rather
limited. Buying a ticket from the border point should be no problem,
however.
Regards,
David
Rian van der Borgt
>Phil Richards wrote:
>>A couple of years ago I had no luck in buying a ticket from Enschede
>>(Grenze, not the station as I had a pass for the Netherlands)
That would be Gronau(Gr)
>>through to
>>Schwerte in Germany. The best they could offer me was from Enschede station
>>itself to Dortmund where I had to re-book.
>
>The number of stations you can buy a ticket to is indeed rather
>limited. Buying a ticket from the border point should be no problem,
>however.
NS do know Schwerte (although my list of available stations may be
outdated) as a destination but I see a few possible causes of the
inability to get a through ticket:
- Schwerte is on the border of the area to which all domestic ticket
offices can sell tickets. Maybe at's only available at one of the few
international counters.
- It's possible NS doesn't sell Schwerte via Gronau(Gr).
- DB didn't define a direct relation in its TCV between Schwerte and
Gronau(Gr). In fact, jizdenka.cz needs three relations for this route:
Schwerte - Hagen - Dortmund - Gronau(Gr), so there's no direct relation
for Hagen either. Although it's possible to use more than one connecting
TCV relations to issue a ticket, I suspect NS don't do this.
Matthew Geier
>> Indeed. How many rail passengers do you expect to arrive in Harwich
>> International? How many employees do you want to pay for greeting them?
Quite a lot of people got off the ferry and out on outbound train -
mostly heading inland.
We were heading the other way to the end of the branch line.
>> This does not excuse lack of information display, of course.
The station had them, they were just turned off...
The train we finally got was a shiny new 360, on which the 'Next Station'
display was showing a station several stops back down the line.
Information sources were provided, they just didn't work.
greg byshenk
> Matthew Geier schrieb:
> > Quite a lot of people got off the ferry and out on outbound train -
> > mostly heading inland.
> How much is "lot"? 100? 200? 300?
> Harwich International won't generate more passengers over the day than
> a big village somewhere in the fields.
No actual data, but I've done the trip train-ferry-train via Harwich a
few times and every time there were a significant number of passengers
using the trains. I wouldn't be surprised if it is regularly more than
300. But there are only two ferries a day...
--
greg byshenk - gbys...@byshenk.net - Leiden, NL
Phil Richards
> No actual data, but I've done the trip train-ferry-train via Harwich a
> few times and every time there were a significant number of passengers
> using the trains. I wouldn't be surprised if it is regularly more than
> 300.
In days gone by when you had *proper* ferries (not these High Speed things)
on the Harwich to Hoek van Holland, may be. Remember traffic levels on this
traditional route have been diluted with a mixture of Eurostar via Brussels
and more competition with cheaper flights from the UK to Amsterdam.
Nowadays I suspect the number of rail connected passengers using the
service is well under 3 figures.
> But there are only two ferries a day...
To & from HvH, plus DFDS to Sweden, Denmark & Germany, though again I
suspect the number of passengers again transferring to the train is fairly
small.
greg byshenk
> greg byshenk wrote:
> > No actual data, but I've done the trip train-ferry-train via Harwich a
> > few times and every time there were a significant number of passengers
> > using the trains. I wouldn't be surprised if it is regularly more than
> > 300.
> In days gone by when you had *proper* ferries (not these High Speed things)
> on the Harwich to Hoek van Holland, may be. Remember traffic levels on this
> traditional route have been diluted with a mixture of Eurostar via Brussels
> and more competition with cheaper flights from the UK to Amsterdam.
> Nowadays I suspect the number of rail connected passengers using the
> service is well under 3 figures.
As I said, I don't have any hard data, but I have used this ferry, and I
think that every time I have done so, there have been over 100 foot /
train passengers. That is, I've never counted them, but I think that it
is certainly not "well under 3 figures".
> > But there are only two ferries a day...
> To & from HvH, plus DFDS to Sweden, Denmark & Germany, though again I
> suspect the number of passengers again transferring to the train is fairly
> small.
Yes, I wasn't thinking of the other ferries. But they are even less
frequent (I think) and are likely to have even fewer foot passengers.
Neil Williams
> To & from HvH, plus DFDS to Sweden, Denmark & Germany, though again I
> suspect the number of passengers again transferring to the train is fairly
> small.
DFDS to Germany has sadly gone, which isn't a great surprise as the
only good thing about that route (the Smorgasbord aside) as compared to
the other (quicker and cheaper) modes of train and air was the most
enjoyable experience of sailing along the Elbe in the morning. Once it
was cut back to Cuxhaven, faster or not, I expected it to be doomed,
and so it was.
As for the station, I don't see a need for it to be staffed, though if
the PIS isn't working some signs would come in handy (given that it's a
single line there's no reason not to be 100% consistent with platform
allocations). If it is unstaffed, a few prominent notices to the
effect that it's OK to pay on the train would be a good idea, as those
unfamiliar with UK trains won't know that.
Neil
use...@isbd.co.uk
the Summer season. There is a daytime 'ordinary' ferry and an
overnight 'ordinary' ferry plus either one or two crossings by the HSS
ferry.
However there is news that Stena are looking into stopping some or all
of these crossings.
--
Chris Green
Rian van der Borgt
>greg byshenk <gbys...@byshenk.net> wrote:
>>No actual data, but I've done the trip train-ferry-train via Harwich a
>>few times and every time there were a significant number of passengers
>>using the trains. I wouldn't be surprised if it is regularly more than
>>300. But there are only two ferries a day...
>
>There are three ferries a day in the Winter season and four a day in
>the Summer season. There is a daytime 'ordinary' ferry and an
>overnight 'ordinary' ferry plus either one or two crossings by the HSS
>ferry.
Foot passengers are only allowed on the HSS ferries. Which is a shame
for the overnight one.
>However there is news that Stena are looking into stopping some or all
>of these crossings.
That's new to me. Do tell us more.
Phil Richards
> Foot passengers are only allowed on the HSS ferries. Which is a shame
> for the overnight one.
This seems to be a growing trend for many car ferry routes.
use...@isbd.co.uk
>
> >However there is news that Stena are looking into stopping some or all
> >of these crossings.
>
> That's new to me. Do tell us more.
>
ago that Stena were considering the viability of this route.
Yes, a search on the BBC site has revealed:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/4732642.stm
--
Chris Green