SBB - atrocious information provision
Neil Williams
caused by overhead line damage, though a guard told me it was a gas
leak.
Fair enough, this sort of thing happens everywhere. But the
information provision was pitiful.
First of all, there was an announcement of an "indeterminate delay"
due to "operational difficulties". Not useful in giving you an idea
how long it might be!
Then the guard came through turfing people off and sending them for
the (city) bus, at least they knew which numbers, but there was no
official statement on ticket acceptance. (The guard seemed to think
it would be OK...)
I decided to wait around for a bit to see what cleared - it took 15-20
minutes for SBB to get anything on their website about it, and that
was vague. The departure board just showed the next 2 or 3 trains as
cancelled - the "additional information" free-text line was blank.
The announcements were unintelligible on the concourse.
Got the #10 bus to Geneva, which *just misses* the station. This
avoided the queues, as no staff directed anyone from the massive horde
waiting for the #5 to the other end of the airport...
Nothing was done to prevent people coming into the station and buying
tickets. In the end they did post someone at the tops of the stairs
to the platforms to turn people back - but it took them a while - and
when they did it was just security guards and cleaners!
For an airport station, this all seems rather poor to me. Is the UK
perhaps winning back the edge? Information provision during major
disruption at, say, Euston, tends to be rather better. Are SBB
perhaps a bit complacent because of their usual high punctuality/
reliability that they don't seem to have any proper contingency
plans? Or is it just the French-style laissez-faire attitude you tend
to get in Romandie?
Neil
Roland Perry
<f2b0350a-565f-4cf3...@z14g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, at
05:47:45 on Mon, 11 Jul 2011, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com>
remarked:
>Then the guard came through turfing people off and sending them for
>the (city) bus, at least they knew which numbers, but there was no
>official statement on ticket acceptance. (The guard seemed to think
>it would be OK...)
There's a free 80 minute pass available for those arriving at the
airport, perhaps worth grabbing one even if you know your ultimate
destination is beyond Geneva.
>Got the #10 bus to Geneva, which *just misses* the station.
Colliding with it might not be the best idea. But it's only a hundred
yards away! http://www.panoramio.com/photo/25005195
--
Roland Perry
Graham Harrison
"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:CuJZZHiQ...@perry.co.uk...
Those double artics always amaze me.
Neil Williams
> There's a free 80 minute pass available for those arriving at the
> airport, perhaps worth grabbing one even if you know your ultimate
> destination is beyond Geneva.
Yeah, might well do that in the future. I took the risk that cross-
acceptance was intended as I imagine most did (and it probably was),
but I do know the fine is a cool 100 CHF or thereabouts, which made
the journey feel a little awkward!
> >Got the #10 bus to Geneva, which *just misses* the station.
>
> Colliding with it might not be the best idea. But it's only a hundred
> yards away!http://www.panoramio.com/photo/25005195
:)
Yeah, it was a short and not unpleasant walk - but it would have been
easy to miss it and end up wherever the bus's final destination was!
I think, as these buses have on-board "next stop" PIS, it might have
made sense to state where to get off somewhere!
The other thing this shows is the inflexibility of old-style flap-
board displays and that LED/LCD is a vastly superior technology -
though most of Europe doesn't use it as such and just replicates the
limited, basic layout that was there before.
Neil
Neil Williams
<edward.harris...@remove.btinternet.com> wrote:
> Those double artics always amaze me.
Hamburg have some diesel ones on the busy ex-tram route past the uni.
They appear to follow around the corners nicely and not cause
problems. Perhaps London should cons...oh, never mind.
Neil
Roland Perry
<915c71cf-97e9-4f2c...@gc3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, at
06:26:16 on Mon, 11 Jul 2011, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com>
remarked:
>> >Got the #10 bus to Geneva, which *just misses* the station.
>
>Yeah, it was a short and not unpleasant walk - but it would have been
>easy to miss it and end up wherever the bus's final destination was!
I agree that they should reference the station in the route guide
southbound (at Lyon) as well as northbound (at 22-Cantons):
http://www.tpg.ch/fr/ligne10
--
Roland Perry
Valtsu
> Fair enough, this sort of thing happens everywhere. But the
> information provision was pitiful.
>
The Swiss are known to be prompt, effective, etc etc, but do remember
they managed bankrupt their effective, reliable, etc etc national
airline in best third world traditions.
Flexibility and use of plain common sense when things do not go
according to textbook are not swiss qualities, unfortunately.
Graham Harrison
"Valtsu" <val...@stadissa.fi> wrote in message
news:3YESp.58524$mX5....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
That's not wholly fair. Sabena had a hand in all that.
Ross
>"Valtsu" <val...@stadissa.fi> wrote in message
>news:3YESp.58524$mX5....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
>> On 11.7.2011 15:47, Neil Williams wrote:
>>
>>> Fair enough, this sort of thing happens everywhere. But the
>>> information provision was pitiful.
>>>
>> The Swiss are known to be prompt, effective, etc etc, but do remember they
>> managed bankrupt their effective, reliable, etc etc national airline in
>> best third world traditions.
>That's not wholly fair. Sabena had a hand in all that.
ISTR Sabena fell over because Swissair didn't inject the funds SR was
required to whilst still ending up with 34 Airbuses (Airbi?) which it
then couldn't afford; SN didn't take SR with it.
Swissair hadn't injected the funds because its buying spree (Sabena
being only one of its purchases) had left it with major cash flow
problems, and SR would most likely have fallen over without the SN
purchase - the Hunter Strategy meaning they'd have bought something
else equally as or even more dodgy than SN.
The whole Swissair collapse was extremely murky, and with hindsight
the way the financial industry behaved (consultants recommending
totally unviable expansion, banks throwing good money after bad only
to foreclose at the worst possible moment) could possibly have
presaged the wider financial chaos of the past few years.
So, overall, I'd say Sabena didn't really have a hand in all that.
Sabena was dragged down by Swissair rather than the other way round.
--
Ross
Speaking for me, myself and I. Nobody else
- unless I make it clear that I am...
Ross
[...]
>Nothing was done to prevent people coming into the station and buying
>tickets. In the end they did post someone at the tops of the stairs
>to the platforms to turn people back - but it took them a while - and
>when they did it was just security guards and cleaners!
Which is probably all the people SBB had.
SBB run on minimal staffing at their stations (indeed on the system as
a whole), as I'm pretty sure you know, so why assume that people can
be conjured out of nowhere when things go wrong?
This is the problem with minimal staffing: it makes economic sense,
but when things go wrong you simply won't be able to provide any form
of customer service.
Go the other way and you end up with lots of people who appear to be
standing round doing nothing most of the time (and who, during an
incident, probably won't have much useful information themselves
either).
Roland Perry
Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Ross <ros...@gmail.com> remarked:
>>In the end they did post someone at the tops of the stairs
>>to the platforms to turn people back - but it took them a while - and
>>when they did it was just security guards and cleaners!
>
>Which is probably all the people SBB had.
>SBB run on minimal staffing at their stations (indeed on the system as
>a whole), as I'm pretty sure you know, so why assume that people can
>be conjured out of nowhere when things go wrong?
On the other hand, every time I've arrived at Geneva Airport station
there have been several cleaning staff with trollies full of new loo
rolls and other stuff, who leap aboard to prepare the trains for
departure. I've never seen that in the UK.
--
Roland Perry
Ross
Perhaps you've just never noticed them, Roland.
Travel into Kings Cross with East Coast, for example, and there's
usually 1 or 2 cleaners per coach waiting for the passengers to get
off.
You might also not have noticed that those people who get on the
trains at Genève-Aéroport tend to travel through to Genève-Cornavin
(or vice-versa) as the turnround time isn't enough to clean the train
properly.
I only noticed it myself when I stayed for a week in the Etap about
half way between the airport and Cornavin and, as it was often more
convenient for me to use the Airport station than Cornavin, I was
hopping back and forth a fair bit - and watching what was going on, as
I do.
Neil comments that the staff he saw were cleaners (which also means
they're likely not actually SBB staff but contractors) rather than
"customer service", which in turn suggests those cleaners had also
been stranded...
Roland Perry
>>there have been several cleaning staff with trollies full of new loo
>>rolls and other stuff, who leap aboard to prepare the trains for
>>departure. I've never seen that in the UK.
>
>Perhaps you've just never noticed them, Roland.
>Travel into Kings Cross with East Coast, for example, and there's
>usually 1 or 2 cleaners per coach waiting for the passengers to get
>off.
I'll look more carefully next time I arrive at Kings Cross.
Never seen any station staff cleaning a train on the Midland Mainline,
be that at Nottingham or St Pancras. Sometimes there's a bloke attaching
a hose to fill the toilet water tanks, but nothing like the trolleys at
Geneva (about twice the size of a UK refreshment trolley).
--
Roland Perry
Neil Williams
> This is the problem with minimal staffing: it makes economic sense,
> but when things go wrong you simply won't be able to provide any form
> of customer service.
True. Though even a single-staffed station in the UK would probably
manage to put out a notice board with details of the problem on it and
how long they think it'll be getting fixed.
That said, the usual in Germany in this case is just to stick up
"bitte Ansage beachten" (please listen for announcements) and announce
it, and Switzerland seems the same. This is all very well except at
an airport station where peoples' first language is not only not
necessarily French/German, but possibly also not English either.
I was surprised they didn't either clear the board completely or use
the two free text lines to display something. That was a big
problem. If you put a train as "cancelled" at Geneve-Aeroport it
still appears on the platform displays, but minus the time and train
classification, which was also confusing people. I think that's why
the staff came out.
As for the cleaners, they, like the rather aggressive-looking security
guards[1] they also have who were also helping out on one of the
staircases, appear to be an SBB subsidiary rather than third-party.
[1] Not as aggressive as the two armed Militaerpolizei that got on at
Lausanne escorting a few "prisoners". Surprised they were travelling
by train - but even so much as looking in their direction was met by a
very steely stare. I thought for a minute I was in Communist Russia
rather than Switzerland... I know you get armed soldiers on trains a
lot, but they tend to be quite young conscripts who don't look half as
threatening even with their guns.
Neil
Neil Williams
> Never seen any station staff cleaning a train on the Midland Mainline,
> be that at Nottingham or St Pancras. Sometimes there's a bloke attaching
> a hose to fill the toilet water tanks, but nothing like the trolleys at
> Geneva (about twice the size of a UK refreshment trolley).
I think the design of those trolleys is such because they have to be
dragged up stairs (external on the UIC coaches, internal on the
DoStos) and along rather rougher than the UK corridor connections.
The Swiss refreshment trolleys, on the rare and seemingly-random
occasion you encounter one, are similarly heavily engineered.
Trains are cleaned both on board and on arrival with VT, by the way,
and I think fGW. To cause a bit of thread convergence, you don't see
this because the platform isn't advertised until it's ready.
Neil
Ross
>In message <d82p179g32vgaiha9...@4ax.com>, at 18:58:54 on
>Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Ross <ros...@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>On the other hand, every time I've arrived at Geneva Airport station
>>>there have been several cleaning staff with trollies full of new loo
>>>rolls and other stuff, who leap aboard to prepare the trains for
>>>departure. I've never seen that in the UK.
>>
>>Perhaps you've just never noticed them, Roland.
>>Travel into Kings Cross with East Coast, for example, and there's
>>usually 1 or 2 cleaners per coach waiting for the passengers to get
>>off.
>
>I'll look more carefully next time I arrive at Kings Cross.
>
>Never seen any station staff cleaning a train on the Midland Mainline,
>be that at Nottingham or St Pancras.
I've seen them at Nottingham, although I tend to be there in the
evenings when there are hordes of them waiting for the terminating
Local arrivals, but I don't know how the set-up works during the day.
I know the Rail Gourmet person is supposed to act as an on-train
cleaner as well as trolley person, but again, I don't know how that
works in practice.
Can't comment on STP either - I rarely use the MML at all, as for me
ECML is always faster to London so I end up at KGX.
I was tempted to use the through Merry-Diane from Lincoln this morning
just to see how much free coffee I could drink before (a) I burst or
(b) they refused to serve me any more, but in the end i decided that
staying in bed was a much better option!
>Sometimes there's a bloke attaching
>a hose to fill the toilet water tanks, but nothing like the trolleys at
>Geneva (about twice the size of a UK refreshment trolley).
That's a method of working thing, I think; here we tend to clean one
carriage and throw the filled bin bag(s) onto the platform to be
picked up by another cleaner; there they seem to take the litter with
them on the trolley.
Of course, there's a big difference in what's being done; their
cleaning is as much emptying those small bins as it is wiping down
tables and so on, with many passengers taking big bits with them to
dump in the platform bins, whereas here the absence of bins (on trains
and stations alike) means most litter is on seats, tables and the
floor and has to be cleaned up before the next journey.
The next time I use the MML, or am in Nottingham when a terminating
London arrives, I'll have a look-see and see what cleaning is being
done.
Phil Richards
> Caught up in the hassle at Geneve-Aeroport today, that was apparently
> caused by overhead line damage, though a guard told me it was a gas
> leak.
>
> Fair enough, this sort of thing happens everywhere. But the
> information provision was pitiful.
> For an airport station, this all seems rather poor to me.
A delay travelling away by train from the airport isn't as bad as going
to the airport if you had a flight to take. So long as they made it
clear trains were starting back at Cornavin and to use local buses then
that's fine. If not, then yes, the info was poor.
I wonder how well organied they were at Gen�ve-Cornavin at getting
passengers to the airport?
> perhaps winning back the edge? Information provision during major
> disruption at, say, Euston, tends to be rather better.
At Euston you're often just directed away to elsewhere. That's easy -
Marylebone, St Pancras etc. are simple enough to reach and it clears
people away in that "just get rid of 'em" approach we like to adopt. The
information most will want to hear is when will I get to leave (Euston)
and more important when they'll arrive at their destination. And those
sort of answers aren't generally forthcoming.
Alternative optiions are not so easy at Geneva airport unless road
transport is laid (or made clear about) on as there are no alternative
rail routes.
--
Phil Richards, London, UK
http://www.flickr.com/philstephenrichards
Ross
[...]
>guards[1] they also have who were also helping out on one of the
>staircases, appear to be an SBB subsidiary rather than third-party.
The security guards are Securitrans, which is an SBB -Securitas joint
venture.
Note that they may be "Public Transport Police" rather than security;
both were supplied by the same company (although the police are now
fully SBB again) and it can be difficult to tell the difference!
>[1] Not as aggressive as the two armed Militaerpolizei that got on at
>Lausanne escorting a few "prisoners". Surprised they were travelling
>by train - but even so much as looking in their direction was met by a
>very steely stare. I thought for a minute I was in Communist Russia
Why the quotes around prisoners, Neil?
Anyway, IMLX prisoner transport security types [1] in general dislike
being looked at and respond similarly; appearing aggressive enough to
deter any approach is part of their job.
OK, we don't see much of it in the UK as prisoners aren't transported
by rail very often and most normal people don't see what goes on
during transfers from prison vans as it's mostly behind closed doors,
but that's what they're like.
The dangerous ones are the ones who aren't giving you the steely looks
to keep you away...
>rather than Switzerland... I know you get armed soldiers on trains a
>lot, but they tend to be quite young conscripts who don't look half as
>threatening even with their guns.
I'd much rather have threatening looking MPs than a gaggle of young
conscripts any day - the MPs are likely to know what they're doing
with their weapons, for starters.
[1] Prison officers tend to be rather different, IMequallyLX.
Roland Perry
<6541632a-deef-443f...@g12g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, at
11:37:44 on Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com>
remarked:
>Trains are cleaned both on board and on arrival with VT, by the way,
>and I think fGW. To cause a bit of thread convergence, you don't see
>this because the platform isn't advertised until it's ready.
I'm talking about seeing the cleaners standing waiting when I get off.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
>I've seen them at Nottingham, although I tend to be there in the
>evenings when there are hordes of them waiting for the terminating
>Local arrivals, but I don't know how the set-up works during the day.
>I know the Rail Gourmet person is supposed to act as an on-train
>cleaner as well as trolley person, but again, I don't know how that
>works in practice.
I've been down to London a couple of times since the new "trolley only"
regime. And the scheme seems to be [approx] to go through the train
selling things once after Nottingham, and once after Leicester, then
hide at the rear of the train to reappear with a bin bag (but no
trolley) collecting debris somewhere around Luton.
--
Roland Perry
Neil Williams
> I'm talking about seeing the cleaners standing waiting when I get off.
If they were waiting at most London termini, they'd get run down by
the crowd. Geneve-Aeroport station, OTOH, rarely sees massive crowds,
even during ski season.
Neil
Neil Williams
> Why the quotes around prisoners, Neil?
Just because they seemed semi-willing, were not handcuffed etc, but
were very much being directed by the guards. Guns were present but in
holsters (as with all Swiss police). I expect they'd gone AWOL and
been caught or something rather than having committed a more serious
offence.
> OK, we don't see much of it in the UK as prisoners aren't transported
> by rail very often and most normal people don't see what goes on
> during transfers from prison vans as it's mostly behind closed doors,
> but that's what they're like.
They don't seem like people who should be having contact with the
public... so maybe a van is best.
> I'd much rather have threatening looking MPs than a gaggle of young
> conscripts any day - the MPs are likely to know what they're doing
> with their weapons, for starters.
One of those things where the safer option feels very much less safe?
Neil
Neil Williams
wrote:
> A delay travelling away by train from the airport isn't as bad as going
> to the airport if you had a flight to take. So long as they made it
> clear trains were starting back at Cornavin and to use local buses then
> that's fine. If not, then yes, the info was poor.
It wasn't made clear. It was announced, but at concourse level the
announcements were barely audible. It was not on the departure board,
which just showed (on a rolling basis) the next few trains cancelled.
> I wonder how well organied they were at Gen ve-Cornavin at getting
> passengers to the airport?
When I arrived there by bus, nothing evident at all.
> At Euston you're often just directed away to elsewhere. That's easy -
> Marylebone, St Pancras etc. are simple enough to reach and it clears
> people away in that "just get rid of 'em" approach we like to adopt. The
> information most will want to hear is when will I get to leave (Euston)
> and more important when they'll arrive at their destination. And those
> sort of answers aren't generally forthcoming.
Maybe I'm spoilt by said information being available via NRE, Twitter
etc. LM is exceptionally good at the latter.
> Alternative optiions are not so easy at Geneva airport unless road
> transport is laid (or made clear about) on as there are no alternative
> rail routes.
Oh, indeed. But basic information e.g. whether to buy a separate
ticket for the bus or not was not given, nor any assistance to spread
between the 5 (by the station exit) and the 10 (the other end of the
car park). And the question of tickets isn't always obvious, and
isn't something to take lightly given the CHF 100 fine for not doing
so, and given that some tickets in Switzerland are to a Verbundtarif
including local buses etc, and some are not. (The system is very
similar to Germany in that regard, and is not as integrated as people
like to think.)
Neil
Roland Perry
<2bb4cbc1-752a-425c...@a7g2000vby.googlegroups.com>, at
12:47:22 on Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com>
remarked:
>basic information e.g. whether to buy a separate ticket for the bus or
>not was not given, nor any assistance to spread between the 5 (by the
>station exit) and the 10 (the other end of the car park).
The #10 does a tour round the car park (including the stop it shares
with the #5 bus[1] at the top of the escalators to the railway station),
although I agree that unless you know that, it often seems you are
directed to the stop at the far end beyond the Easyjet check in).
[1] http://www.panoramio.com/photo/10067349 (not my picture).
--
Roland Perry
Neil Williams
wrote:
> The #10 does a tour round the car park (including the stop it
shares
> with the #5 bus[1] at the top of the escalators to the railway
station),
Not at present due to the road being dug up.
Neil
--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK
D7666
> Never seen any station staff cleaning a train on the Midland Mainline,
> be that at Nottingham or St Pancras.
Perhaps thats because station staff don't do train cleaning.
Isn't EMT trains cleaning contracted out anyway ? Most TOC seem to do
that.
--
Nick
D7666
> .... .... reappear with a bin bag .... .... collecting debris somewhere around Luton.
It is not difficult to collect debris around Luton.
--
Nick
Peter Masson
"Ross" <ros...@gmail.com> wrote
>
> OK, we don't see much of it in the UK as prisoners aren't transported
> by rail very often
Not now, though it used to happen often enough to merit a special bit of
railway telegraphese:
JUG - reserve the following for prisoner and escort.
It was of course easier in the days of compartment stock. The last time I
was aware of a prisoner and escort on a train I was on was on the Sunday
late afternoon train south from Inverness in the 1970s.
Peter
Roland Perry
<d591911e-876e-4885...@h4g2000vbw.googlegroups.com>, at
13:30:33 on Tue, 12 Jul 2011, D7666 <d7...@hotmail.com> remarked:
>> Never seen any station staff cleaning a train on the Midland Mainline,
>> be that at Nottingham or St Pancras.
>
>Perhaps thats because station staff don't do train cleaning.
<sigh> Staff at the station. I really don't care who their immediate
employer is.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
<12fafd2c-86d6-4522...@a31g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>, at
12:50:38 on Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com>
remarked:
>> I'm talking about seeing the cleaners standing waiting when I get off.
>
>If they were waiting at most London termini, they'd get run down by
>the crowd. Geneve-Aeroport station, OTOH, rarely sees massive crowds,
>even during ski season.
But if these cleaners exist, they have to be somewhere. On the platforms
or somewhere to the side then moving to the platforms. You'd see them
cleaning trains that arrived earlier. Like I said, I'll do a thorough
survey next time I'm in London.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
22:27:38 on Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com>
remarked:
>> The #10 does a tour round the car park (including the stop it shares
>>with the #5 bus[1] at the top of the escalators to the railway
>>station),
>
>Not at present due to the road being dug up.
How do they reverse the trolleybus? That's what the loop does normally.
--
Roland Perry
Neil Williams
> Not now, though it used to happen often enough to merit a special bit of
> railway telegraphese:
> JUG - reserve the following for prisoner and escort.
> It was of course easier in the days of compartment stock. The last time I
> was aware of a prisoner and escort on a train I was on was on the Sunday
> late afternoon train south from Inverness in the 1970s.
Interestingly, they didn't have reserved accommodation. I did wonder
if one of the glares I got from one of them meant "give up your
seat" (I was on my own in a bay of 4) but decided that I would only do
that if asked directly. They found 2 bays together further up the
coach.
(SBB doesn't normally do reservations, but they do for groups, and I
would have thought for this kind of purpose as well. Perhaps it
wasn't placed due to the disruption).
Neil
Neil Williams
> >Not at present due to the road being dug up.
>
> How do they reverse the trolleybus? That's what the loop does normally.
I don't remember 100% which way it went, to be honest - but that loop
definitely was not accessible from that direction as part of it had no
road surface.
I think it turned right then right again after departure (facing the
motorway) from the temporary stop.
Neil
Roland Perry
<0b0ce32a-b852-4d37...@d7g2000vbv.googlegroups.com>, at
01:26:42 on Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com>
remarked:
>> How do they reverse the trolleybus? That's what the loop does normally.
>
>I don't remember 100% which way it went, to be honest - but that loop
>definitely was not accessible from that direction as part of it had no
>road surface.
>
>I think it turned right then right again after departure (facing the
>motorway) from the temporary stop.
hmm, I can't see any bit of road they could easily (less than half a
kilometer) re-wire the trolley bus along to achieve that. Or were they
using conventional buses for the duration of the diversion?
http://www.bing.com/maps/explore/default.aspx#/mmfj61j0rr2hcmmf
There's a 2-car bendy trolley bus just having entered the loop there,
going anti-clockwise.
--
Roland Perry
Neil Williams
> hmm, I can't see any bit of road they could easily (less than half a
> kilometer) re-wire the trolley bus along to achieve that. Or were they
> using conventional buses for the duration of the diversion?
>
> http://www.bing.com/maps/explore/default.aspx#/mmfj61j0rr2hcmmf
>
> There's a 2-car bendy trolley bus just having entered the loop there,
> going anti-clockwise.
No, it was a trolleybus. I think it went via Route de Pre-Bois then
the small cut-through. The works going on at the airport are I think
pretty long-term so they may well have added extra wires.
If I get time on Thursday evening I might have a look.
Neil
Roland Perry
<e04e1006-cc1f-4bc9...@hi9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, at
03:31:07 on Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com>
remarked:
>> hmm, I can't see any bit of road they could easily (less than half a
>> kilometer) re-wire the trolley bus along to achieve that. Or were they
>> using conventional buses for the duration of the diversion?
>>
>> http://www.bing.com/maps/explore/default.aspx#/mmfj61j0rr2hcmmf
>>
>> There's a 2-car bendy trolley bus just having entered the loop there,
>> going anti-clockwise.
>
>No, it was a trolleybus. I think it went via Route de Pre-Bois then
>the small cut-through.
The complexity with that is you end up (because of the right-hand turns)
on the wrong [left-hand] side of the road - needing in effect a x-over
to get you to the correct side.
>The works going on at the airport are I think
>pretty long-term so they may well have added extra wires.
>
>If I get time on Thursday evening I might have a look.
That's be good.
--
Roland Perry
nimbu...@yahoo.co.uk
<edward.harris...@remove.btinternet.com> wrote:
> "Valtsu" <val...@stadissa.fi> wrote in message
>
> news:3YESp.58524$mX5....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
>
> > On 11.7.2011 15:47, Neil Williams wrote:
>
> >> Fair enough, this sort of thing happens everywhere. But the
> >> information provision was pitiful.
>
> > managed bankrupt their effective, reliable, etc etc national airline in
> > best third world traditions.
>
> > Flexibility and use of plain common sense when things do not go according
> > to textbook are not swiss qualities, unfortunately.
>
> That's not wholly fair. Sabena had a hand in all that.
There is a particular bit of stupidity which the replacement airline
Swiss now do.
Book a flight to Geneva from London City and it will print a boarding
card barcode type of thing on your itenary. Ask it to send to your
blackberry and it will be scanned at boarding without a problem.
Present the same barcode on the itinery to the scanner before security
and it lets you pass unhindered. Present it at gate and they reject
because it says itinery and not boarding card.
What halfwit designs a system which has barcode which is valid but is
arbitarly rejected when it is linked to paper but not on a
Blackberry ??? Why print this onto itinery at all?
Otherwise Swiss is as about cheap in advance and much nicer than
easyjet
Free sandwich
Free beer
no booking fees or check in nonsense fees
Chose your seat 23 hours before flight
Neil Williams
wrote:
> Otherwise Swiss is as about cheap in advance and much nicer than
> easyjet
...unless you live nearer LTN/LGW than LCY/LHR.
Neil
Ross
>On Jul 12, 9:13 pm, Ross <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Why the quotes around prisoners, Neil?
>
>Just because they seemed semi-willing, were not handcuffed etc, but
>were very much being directed by the guards. Guns were present but in
>holsters (as with all Swiss police). I expect they'd gone AWOL and
>been caught or something rather than having committed a more serious
>offence.
Oh, right, understood and fair comment.
I'd wondered if you were suggesting that as military they weren't real
prisoners or something along those lines - too many years of trying to
work out what David Hansen actually meant with his snide inferences, I
think!
>> OK, we don't see much of it in the UK as prisoners aren't transported
>> by rail very often and most normal people don't see what goes on
>> during transfers from prison vans as it's mostly behind closed doors,
>> but that's what they're like.
>
>They don't seem like people who should be having contact with the
>public... so maybe a van is best.
Oh, I don't know. Sometimes it helps the world to be reminded that not
everything in life is all woolly and wonderful.
>> I'd much rather have threatening looking MPs than a gaggle of young
>> conscripts any day - the MPs are likely to know what they're doing
>> with their weapons, for starters.
>
>One of those things where the safer option feels very much less safe?
Add "at first glance" to the end of your sentence and my response is:
Yes indeed. :)
Ross
[...]
>But basic information e.g. whether to buy a separate
>ticket for the bus or not was not given, [...]
>And the question of tickets isn't always obvious, and
>isn't something to take lightly given the CHF 100 fine for not doing
>so, and given that some tickets in Switzerland are to a Verbundtarif
>including local buses etc, and some are not.
I get the feeling when I am Switzerland that "the system" assumes all
passengers are on some for or other of season ticket or unlimited
travel ticket (be it GA/AG or the "local" variant thereof or indeed
assuming that tourists will be using STS passes), that everyone will
already know what validity their ticket has and it doesn't occur to
them that maybe that assumption isn't too clever.
Neil Williams
> Oh, I don't know. Sometimes it helps the world to be reminded that not
> everything in life is all woolly and wonderful.
True, particularly in a country like Switzerland where it all seems
rather more idyllic than your typical British town.
Though there have been a few of those. The most memorable was
witnessing (from another bar) a pretty vicious bar fight in Vevey.
The police were along very quickly, it has to be said, but it's just
not what you expect there.
Neil
Neil Williams
> I get the feeling when I am Switzerland that "the system" assumes all
> passengers are on some for or other of season ticket or unlimited
> travel ticket (be it GA/AG or the "local" variant thereof or indeed
> assuming that tourists will be using STS passes), that everyone will
> already know what validity their ticket has and it doesn't occur to
> them that maybe that assumption isn't too clever.
It might well be the case - or anyone with a ticket to Geneva includes
"unireso" services i.e. everything in the Geneva area, not just
trains.
I think the movement is towards a unified tariff - the Verbund zones
are expanding slowly and all seem to use a similar system - but I
think given the promotion of the "Swiss Travel System" outside CH it
surprises people to find that the system is very similar to Germany's,
i.e. better integrated than the UK (slightly) but nothing special, and
that like "BritRail" the "Swiss Travel System" is just a concept sold,
often at a suitably inflated price, to tourists.
Meanwhile, I expect I'll pick up a free Geneva ticket in arrivals each
time now to ensure I have validity in case I need it again. (That's
another nice curiosity of GVA airport in such an expensive country -
free WiFi - supposedly only an hour but you can reconnect repeatedly -
and free local travel).
Neil
Roland Perry
<0c51a446-2188-4c65...@y24g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, at
23:55:07 on Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com>
remarked:
>Meanwhile, I expect I'll pick up a free Geneva ticket in arrivals each
>time now to ensure I have validity in case I need it again.
The free travelcard (for the duration) if you are staying in one of the
hotels is quite unusual too. Five years ago you had to ask, but now they
just dish them out. The only public transport I've had to pay for in the
last few years is when going straight from the airport to a meeting
(using my free 80 minute ticket) and then having to find the change to
get to the hotel to check in.
>(That's another nice curiosity of GVA airport in such an expensive
>country - free WiFi - supposedly only an hour but you can reconnect
>repeatedly - and free local travel).
Partly it's expensive to fund the various "freebies".
--
Roland Perry
Neil Williams
> The free travelcard (for the duration) if you are staying in one of the
> hotels is quite unusual too. Five years ago you had to ask, but now they
> just dish them out.
I find it varies by hotel in the Riviera. Some give them out by
default, some you have to ask.
> >(That's another nice curiosity of GVA airport in such an expensive
> >country - free WiFi - supposedly only an hour but you can reconnect
> >repeatedly - and free local travel).
>
> Partly it's expensive to fund the various "freebies".
You mean via the landing charges etc? I suppose it's similar to the
above free travel tickets being funded via a tourist tax.
Neil
Roland Perry
<a3a076f8-3957-4c12...@hd10g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, at
00:47:56 on Thu, 14 Jul 2011, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com>
remarked:
>> >(That's another nice curiosity of GVA airport in such an expensive
>> >country - free WiFi - supposedly only an hour but you can reconnect
>> >repeatedly - and free local travel).
>>
>> Partly it's expensive to fund the various "freebies".
>
>You mean via the landing charges etc?
Geneva's airport tax (paid by passengers) went up with the excuse of the
Schengen modifications. But there's been quite a big improvement
programme beyond merely re-siting some of the bureaucracy.
>I suppose it's similar to the
>above free travel tickets being funded via a tourist tax.
--
Roland Perry
Neil Williams
> Geneva's airport tax (paid by passengers) went up with the excuse of the
> Schengen modifications. But there's been quite a big improvement
> programme beyond merely re-siting some of the bureaucracy.
To be fair, it is generally a well-run airport, with a few
exceptions:-
1. The restaurant after security tends to close all but one or two of
the counters by about 19:00, which is a pain if you want to eat before
departure on a late evening flight. You can (and I do) eat before
security, but it's a pain having to go back out again (though easier
than some airports - there is at least a clear path back through to
arrivals without requiring an escort).
2. The security queues can be rather long at times. But I don't see
how this could be fixed without re-siting security, as at very busy
times they often have all scanners in use.
3. easyJet queueing was in the past often handled badly - but they
keep improving it. Part of the problem here is people pushing in,
which as they are usually English people on an English airline should
really know better. The staff try to stop it but usually don't have
the guts to send obvious pushers-in to the back of the queue[1], which
IMO is what should be done. But it does seem that an awful lot of
people with a very rude attitude are found in suits at airports
worldwide...
[1] I'd like to see two entries added to easyJet and Ryanair T&Cs as
follows:-
- Where there are queues for boarding, you must join these at the
rear. "Pushing in" will not be tolerated. Passengers seen to be
taking this action will be instructed to move to the back of the (2)
queue and will forfeit any Speedy Boarding etc. If they do not agree
with this, they will be denied travel without refund.
- Saving seats is not under any circumstances an acceptable
practice. Seats are strictly chosen in the order of boarding. In
particular it is completely unacceptable for a passenger purchasing
Speedy Boarding to save a seat for a passenger not purchasing this
service, and it is particularly unacceptable for anyone to save a
"desirable" seat, i.e. front 5 rows and over-wing exit rows, for a
passenger who has not yet boarded. If passengers are found to be
doing this, they will be instructed once by cabin crew to desist from
doing so. If they continue to do so, they will be removed from the
aircraft and denied travel without refund.
Neil
Neil Williams
> 1. The restaurant after security tends to close all but one or two of
> the counters by about 19:00, which is a pain if you want to eat before
> departure on a late evening flight. You can (and I do) eat before
> security, but it's a pain having to go back out again
(if you didn't know about it, I mean...)
Neil
Roland Perry
<8852538c-0b88-49bc...@l18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, at
01:50:50 on Thu, 14 Jul 2011, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com>
remarked:
>> Geneva's airport tax (paid by passengers) went up with the excuse of the
>> Schengen modifications. But there's been quite a big improvement
>> programme beyond merely re-siting some of the bureaucracy.
>
>To be fair, it is generally a well-run airport,
I never used to have many complaints, but...
>with a few exceptions:-
>
>1. The restaurant after security tends to close all but one or two of
>the counters by about 19:00, which is a pain if you want to eat before
>departure on a late evening flight.
The airside shops and cafes have always closed a bit early.
>2. The security queues can be rather long at times. But I don't see
>how this could be fixed without re-siting security, as at very busy
>times they often have all scanners in use.
They were shorter when there was a queue for each satellite (which the
Easyjets almost always use to UK). And the new Schengen border control
in the tunnel between the satellites easily adds ten minutes to arrival
times.
>3. easyJet queueing was in the past often handled badly - but they
>keep improving it. Part of the problem here is people pushing in,
>which as they are usually English people on an English airline should
>really know better.
Several European airports suffer from the "funnel" effect of trying to
empty a departure lounge through one door. At UK airports, and Schiphol,
they subdivide people earlier.
>[1] I'd like to see two entries added to easyJet and Ryanair T&Cs as
>follows:-
>
> - Where there are queues for boarding, you must join these at the
>rear. "Pushing in" will not be tolerated. Passengers seen to be
>taking this action will be instructed to move to the back of the (2)
>queue and will forfeit any Speedy Boarding etc. If they do not agree
>with this, they will be denied travel without refund.
The problem is, there isn't a queue, just a crowd. And they aren't very
good at announcing which boarding group is currently being accepted, so
you have to get as far forward as possible to make sure you don't get
relegated. I do that by being there early, rather than using my elbows.
--
Roland Perry
Arthur Figgis
In my recent experience of abroad, foreigners think all (stereo-)typical
English villages are horribly violent places full of mass killers, as
they see every week on "Midsomerin Murhat".
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Ross
>In message
><0c51a446-2188-4c65...@y24g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, at
>23:55:07 on Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com>
>remarked:
>>Meanwhile, I expect I'll pick up a free Geneva ticket in arrivals each
>>time now to ensure I have validity in case I need it again.
>
>The free travelcard (for the duration) if you are staying in one of the
>hotels is quite unusual too. Five years ago you had to ask, but now they
>just dish them out.
This is offered in Basel as well, but there's a bonus in Basel - your
hotel booking confirmation is valid as a travel ticket from your
arrival point in Basel (airport/station/whatever) to your hotel so you
don't need to buy a ticket to get from *any* arrival point to hotel -
which is better than Geneva, as unireso only offer the free ticket
from the airport and not (for example) from the railway stations.
One to note for possible future travel in Germany and odd places
outside: the InterCityHotel chain's room card acts as a local travel
ticket, and sometimes that can be for quite an extensive area; for
example, when I stayed there the Düsseldorf hotel card was valid for
the entire VRR (Rhein-Ruhr) are, which is pretty extensive.
Valtsu
> On 14/07/2011 07:50, Neil Williams wrote:
>> On Jul 14, 2:55 am, Ross<ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, I don't know. Sometimes it helps the world to be reminded that not
>>> everything in life is all woolly and wonderful.
>>
>> True, particularly in a country like Switzerland where it all seems
>> rather more idyllic than your typical British town.
>>
for meetings quite often. Flying from Sheremetyevo to Kloten was always
a shock as was also driving in the Swiss countryside. What eventually
started irritating me most were the piles of manure behind Swiss barns,
they were always in orderly square piles instead of odd heaps one could
expect. Just too perfect.
>> Though there have been a few of those. The most memorable was
>> witnessing (from another bar) a pretty vicious bar fight in Vevey.
>> The police were along very quickly, it has to be said, but it's just
>> not what you expect there.
>
> In my recent experience of abroad, foreigners think all (stereo-)typical
> English villages are horribly violent places full of mass killers, as
> they see every week on "Midsomerin Murhat".
>
LOL!!!
Some years ago I had to stay a fortnight in a place called Hemel
Hempstead. I was expecting to see an idyllic village like Causton with
all the pleasentries and country side gossipping, maybe even to bump
into DCI Barnaby at a pub, or a chat with local Miss Marple solving a
"civilized" murder in the midst of a scandal involving local aristocrasy.
Reality proved to be quite different. New uggly buildings, rude people,
regular boozing and fighting and public pissing just like in a small
town of the same size in the vicinnity of Helsinki. What a disappointment!
Jeremy Double
> Meanwhile, I expect I'll pick up a free Geneva ticket in arrivals each
> time now to ensure I have validity in case I need it again. (That's
> another nice curiosity of GVA airport in such an expensive country -
> free WiFi - supposedly only an hour but you can reconnect repeatedly -
> and free local travel).
As a visitor to Geneva, you can travel around the Geneva area for free:
you get a free ticket in the baggage collection area of GVA to get you
to your hotel, and then the hotel will issue you with a ticket for the
period of your stay, as a quid-pro-quo for paying the hotel tax.
As far as I'm concerned, that's a very good system.
--
Jeremy Double <jmd.n...@btinternet.com> {real address, include nospam}
Rail and transport photos at
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmdouble/collections/72157603834894248/
Jeremy Double
> On Jul 14, 10:01 am, Roland Perry<rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Geneva's airport tax (paid by passengers) went up with the excuse of the
>> Schengen modifications. But there's been quite a big improvement
>> programme beyond merely re-siting some of the bureaucracy.
>
> To be fair, it is generally a well-run airport, with a few
> exceptions:-
I haven't had any bad experiences there recently, but about 5 years ago
when returning home after Christmas I experienced a terrible scrum at
check-in where they were trying to check in three different flights at
two desks, and several queues were merging into one. There was no
attempt to manage the queues.
I was there a bit early, and was able to board on time, but the flight
was delayed nearly an hour waiting for everyone to get through the
system and board... and being soon after Christmas the flight was only
about a third full (I suspect the outbound flight had been much busier,
because Jet2 provided a 757 rather than the usual 737-300).
Neil Williams
> >If I get time on Thursday evening I might have a look.
>
> That's be good.
And I did...
The #10 is indeed running in a right-hand loop just as I described,
using that "cut-through", using temporary OHLE held up by huge
concrete cylinders, and a very shiny (what looks like) copper
crossover!
Surprised me as well, once I considered right-hand running...
Neil
Neil Williams
> I haven't had any bad experiences there recently, but about 5 years ago
> when returning home after Christmas I experienced a terrible scrum at
> check-in where they were trying to check in three different flights at
> two desks, and several queues were merging into one. There was no
> attempt to manage the queues.
That can be the case for smaller airports, and I suspect it's because
they don't pay enough to have enough desks open.
The easyJet dedicated check-in area is pretty well-managed. Though
most of the time I don't check a bag in anyway.
Neil
Neil Williams
> That can be the case for smaller airports
Airlines. But airports as well :)
Neil
John C
"Valtsu" <val...@stadissa.fi> wrote in message
news:3YESp.58524$mX5....@uutiset.elisa.fi...
> On 11.7.2011 15:47, Neil Williams wrote:
>
>> Fair enough, this sort of thing happens everywhere. But the
>> information provision was pitiful.
>>
> The Swiss are known to be prompt, effective, etc etc, but do remember they
> managed bankrupt their effective, reliable, etc etc national airline in
> best third world traditions.
>
> Flexibility and use of plain common sense when things do not go according
> to textbook are not swiss qualities, unfortunately.
>
>
The Belgians are rather similar and unfortunately performance has nosedived
in recent years.
Some years ago it was possible to plan out a whole day from the timetable
and it normally worked
as planned. Now I just make it up as I go along.
John
Johannes Picht
On 12.07.2011 21:13, Ross wrote:
>
> OK, we don't see much of it in the UK as prisoners aren't transported
> by rail very often and most normal people don't see what goes on
> during transfers from prison vans as it's mostly behind closed doors,
> but that's what they're like.
>
On the other hand, SBB rebuilt a couple of driving cars and launched
(together with Securitas) "Jailtrain"
(http://www.vbsf.ch/userfiles/File/VBSF_Info/VBSF_Info_1_2005.pdf - page 4).
See also
http://www.securitas.ch/en/services/security-services/prisoner-transport.html
Cheers,
Johannes.
Luca Logi
> On the other hand, SBB rebuilt a couple of driving cars and launched
> (together with Securitas) "Jailtrain"
> (http://www.vbsf.ch/userfiles/File/VBSF_Info/VBSF_Info_1_2005.pdf - page 4)
Italian railways built a few DMUs dedicated to prisoner transport (Aln
DAP 001 to 005, very similar to ordinary Aln 663 DMUs). They were
nicknamed "Neccine" as they were ordered when when the railway CEO was
Lorenzo Necci, and delivered at about the time he was arrested for
taking bribes. It is not know if he was a guest on his own DMUs.
http://www.ilmondodeitreni.it/mioforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1651
--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: ll...@dada.it
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)