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I just returned from a Transsiberian and Transmongolian train trip. Together with one other person, I travelled from Holland to China by train. From China we also made a short journey into North-Korea, travelling Beijing - Pyongyang v.v. by train; thus effectually travelling all the way from Holland to North-Korea by train.
The purpose of the journey was not rail-related, we just wanted to see these cities and countries. But being a train enthusiast, the railway trip itself was of course also fascinating. In this travelogue I'll try to concentrate on rail-related parts, but please forgive me for some off-topic wanderings.
Our initiary was as follows: Netherlands - Moscow - Rostov Veliky - Moscow - Barnaul - Novosibirsk - Irkutsk - Ulan-Ude - Ulan-Bator - Beijing - Pyongyang - Beijing. Some parts were booked through a travel agency (VNC Travel, who did the entire North-Korean part including the train tickets; and the Treinreiswinkel who booked the part through Mongolia as well as some Russian tickets). The train tickets to Moscow and from Moscow to Barnaul were booked at the DBAG ticket office in Aachen, using an Euro Domino for the latter part of the journey. We didn't pre-book Rostov - Moscow, Barnaul - Novosibirsk and Novosibirsk - Irkutsk.
NETHERLANDS - MOSCOW
We left the Netherlands on 6 September, crossing the German border at Venlo. The regional train to Germany always consists of a push-pull combination with some Silberling cars. For some reason, I never like the atmosphere in this train. There are always drug tourists to/from Venlo on this train as well as loud, drunk people, etc. This also was the case this time and I was happy to leave the train in Duesseldorf.
After waiting for some time in the pleasant station of Duesseldorf (well, large German stations are usually pleasant) our train to Moscow arrived, which would take us in two nights to the Russian capital. This train consists mainly of modern PKP sleeping cars to Warsaw, and a couple of RZD cars to Moscow as well as a Belarussian car to Minsk. The boarding process was chaotic, partly due to the fact that there was an extra RZD car in the train that wasn't published on the "Wagenstandanzeiger". AFAIK this car wasn't occupied. When we found our right car, we showed our ticket to the "provodnitsa" (Russian female car attendant) who "of course" only spoke Russian.
The RZD cars on this train are the latest stock with European loading gauge. They don't seem all to different with Western-European cars, although the gangways between the cars are weird and by no means level. The cars all have 3-person compartments that can also be booked for 2 or 1 person. We booked such a compartment for two persons, so we had it for ourselves.
The train ride was very smooth and we could sleep very well. Not for too long though, because in the middle of the night we arrived in Frankfurt a/d Oder, where the German and Polish immigration officers wanted to see our passports. Can't this be handled a bit differently, especially now Poland is part of the EU?
In the morning we arrived in Warsaw, where some shunting is carried out: the PKP cars are detached and I think some RZD cars are added. We hoped to get some breakfast in the station, but the provodnitsa advised against (read: forbid) leaving the platform. Fortunately we still had some supplies with us.
The scenery in Poland we saw the rest of the morning was mainly flat and open, with the occasional forst. Pretty similar to what we saw on many parts of the journey, though Poland is starting to look a whole lot more modern than the ex-Soviet states. Somewhere in the afternoon we arrived in Belarus. Similar to many Soviet border crossings, the train made a non-advertised stop directly after the border, to allow passport check to happen. Hearing bad stories about Belarus we expected a tough check, but it all went smoothly and friendly. Because of agreements between Belarus and Russia, this is in fact also the entrance check for Russia. What bothered us was that we didn't get a declaration form, even after asking for it. We heard that we could run into trouble on the Russian-Mongolian border if we didn't get one.
Some time later we arrived in Brest. Here the bogies of the train are changed. We were interested in that operation, but we really had to get some food now, so we left the train at the station (the provodnitsa locked our compartment) and decided to check out the town. Brest turned out to be a nice town and it was a pleasant walk. Unfortunately we didn't find an ATM so we couldn't buy anything. Finally we found one, and we could buy some things to eat in the impressive station of Brest. This was about 15 minutes before train departure. While we were in the restaurant, a fellow train passenger came looking for us... he was sent to look for us by the provodnitsa, who was worried we wouldn't be back in time... ;-) On the train we had an interesting conversation with the guy, who originally came from Uzbekistan and now worked in Brussels as a theatre director.
The next morning we arrived in Moscow, in the Belarussian station. The next couple of days we spent visiting this huge, interesting and modern metropolist. Of course we also admirerd the famous and wonderful metro stations. The metro is really impressive, especially the huge amount of passengers. It often runs every 90 seconds... but in about 60 seconds a platform is totally crowded again! We noticed quite some "work" trains, which transport for example metro wheels. We visited the new station Park Podeby, located very deep under the surface. The design is classic and very similar to older stations; except that instead of communist paintings, there are now scenes from tsarist times on the walls!
We also made some tram journeys. Unfortunately, trams have almost disappeared from central Moscow, though they're still important in the suburbs and in trangential (centre-avoiding) journeys. Trams are a mix of old and new. Although modern in design, the new ones are in fact pretty conventional: one car, high floors, etc. On one line, tram cars have automatic gates inside which prevent you from entering without a ticket. The monorail was unfortunately not in use when we were there.
> The purpose of the journey was not rail-related, we just > wanted to see these cities and countries. But being a > train enthusiast, the railway trip itself was of course > also fascinating. In this travelogue I'll try to > concentrate on rail-related parts, but please forgive me > for some off-topic wanderings.
> After waiting for some time in the pleasant station of > Duesseldorf (well, large German stations are usually > pleasant) our train to Moscow arrived, which would take > us in two nights to the Russian capital. This train > consists mainly of modern PKP sleeping cars to Warsaw, > and a couple of RZD cars to Moscow as well as a > Belarussian car to Minsk. The boarding process was > chaotic, partly due to the fact that there was an extra > RZD car in the train that wasn't published on the > "Wagenstandanzeiger". AFAIK this car wasn't occupied.
How was the occupation of the other cars?
> In the morning we arrived in Warsaw, where some shunting > is carried out: the PKP cars are detached and I think > some RZD cars are added.
When I rode this train in 2002 PKP-sleeping cars (Sczcecin - Moskva and Wroclaw - Moskva) were added at Warszawa Wschodnia.
> Next part: Moscow - Rostov - Moscow.
Thanks for your interesting report, I'm hope we will soon reed the other parts ;-) North Korea sounds very interesting!
However, I'll be patient. I know it takes much time to write such reports, I've still to write some parts of my Balkan-travelogue (parts 1 and 2 already posted to at.verkehr.bahn, unfortunately only in German) and also an Ukraine-travelogue waits to be written...
> > The purpose of the journey was not rail-related, we just > > wanted to see these cities and countries. But being a > > train enthusiast, the railway trip itself was of course > > also fascinating. In this travelogue I'll try to > > concentrate on rail-related parts, but please forgive me > > for some off-topic wanderings.
Yes. We didn't feel like going back also all the way by train... so we went back by plane, although flying isn't exactly my favorite travelling mode (I find it very scary, actually).
> > After waiting for some time in the pleasant station of > > Duesseldorf (well, large German stations are usually > > pleasant) our train to Moscow arrived, which would take > > us in two nights to the Russian capital. This train > > consists mainly of modern PKP sleeping cars to Warsaw, > > and a couple of RZD cars to Moscow as well as a > > Belarussian car to Minsk. The boarding process was > > chaotic, partly due to the fact that there was an extra > > RZD car in the train that wasn't published on the > > "Wagenstandanzeiger". AFAIK this car wasn't occupied.
> How was the occupation of the other cars?
Pretty good, at least in our car most (all?) of the compartments were in use.
> > In the morning we arrived in Warsaw, where some shunting > > is carried out: the PKP cars are detached and I think > > some RZD cars are added.
> When I rode this train in 2002 PKP-sleeping cars (Sczcecin - > Moskva and Wroclaw - Moskva) were added at Warszawa Wschodnia.
I think it now was all RZD when we arrived in Moscow, but I could be wrong on this one.
> However, I'll be patient. I know it takes much time to write such > reports, I've still to write some parts of my Balkan-travelogue > (parts 1 and 2 already posted to at.verkehr.bahn, unfortunately > only in German) and also an Ukraine-travelogue waits to be > written...
I know what you mean. :-) I plan to do the entire travelogue in the next couple of days, otherwise it'll probably never be finished. I'll start writing on the next part in a few moments.
> The train departed from the Yaroslavl station in Moscow > (surprising, huh?). It consists of a long commuter EMU,
There are also some express trains with conventional rolling stock (loco + cars), I think this applies to the express train Moksva - Nishnij Novgorod and the afternoon service to Jaroslawl.
> but with an upgraded, more comfortable interior. It also > includes a bar car. Also, every car has a provodnitsa
I wonder, when railways in the former USSR will start to reduce staff on daytime long distance trains. One attendant per car is not necessary on daytime services.
> We were going to stay overnight in Rostov and would > return the next day to Moscow. We didn't have anything > booked yet; our options consisted of both commuter trains > and long distance trains. We couldn't take an express > back, as then we would arrive too late in Moscow for our > train to Barnaul. Immediately after arriving in Rostov we > went to the ticket office to make a reservation for one > of the long distance trains, but they told us to return > the next day.
Buying tickets from intermediate stations is often possible only at short notice.
> So the next day we went to the station, about one hour > before departure of the train. Buying a ticket (kupe > class, 4-person sleeping compartment) was no problem. The > train arrived a little late. It was a typical Russian > long distance train, consisting of a lot of (dark green) > cars, looking a bit old-fashioned. I think most (all?) > Russian long distance cars were built in East-Germany.
> "David Eerdmans" <usene...@xs4all.nl> schrieb im
> > The train departed from the Yaroslavl station in Moscow > > (surprising, huh?). It consists of a long commuter EMU,
> There are also some express trains with conventional rolling stock > (loco + cars), I think this applies to the express train Moksva - > Nishnij Novgorod and the afternoon service to Jaroslawl.
> > but with an upgraded, more comfortable interior. It also > > includes a bar car. Also, every car has a provodnitsa
> I wonder, when railways in the former USSR will start to reduce > staff on daytime long distance trains. One attendant per car is > not necessary on daytime services.
Seems unlikely. A recent article on rambler.ru http://www.rambler.ru/db/megapolis/msg.html?place=news&mid=5133512 tells about plans to order Talgo double decker cars to be operated between St Petersburg and Moscow, same ones as used presently by VR in InterCity services. According to the article modifications needed are a cabin for a "provodnik" in every car. VR operates a whole train of double deckers with a staff of three (two conductors and a refreshments sales person), but the Russians stick on having a person per car and still a separate dining car. Better service, but eventually expensive.
> > We were going to stay overnight in Rostov and would > > return the next day to Moscow. We didn't have anything > > booked yet; our options consisted of both commuter trains > > and long distance trains. We couldn't take an express > > back, as then we would arrive too late in Moscow for our > > train to Barnaul. Immediately after arriving in Rostov we > > went to the ticket office to make a reservation for one > > of the long distance trains, but they told us to return > > the next day.
> Buying tickets from intermediate stations is often possible only > at short notice.
> > So the next day we went to the station, about one hour > > before departure of the train. Buying a ticket (kupe > > class, 4-person sleeping compartment) was no problem. The > > train arrived a little late. It was a typical Russian > > long distance train, consisting of a lot of (dark green) > > cars, looking a bit old-fashioned. I think most (all?) > > Russian long distance cars were built in East-Germany.
> There are now also more and more new long distance cars built in > Tver (Russia). > See
> Seems unlikely. A recent article on rambler.ru > http://www.rambler.ru/db/megapolis/msg.html?place=news&mid=5133512 tells > about plans to order Talgo double decker cars to be operated between St > Petersburg and Moscow, same ones as used presently by VR in InterCity > services. According to the article modifications needed are a cabin for a > "provodnik" in every car. VR operates a whole train of double deckers with a > staff of three (two conductors and a refreshments sales person), but the > Russians stick on having a person per car and still a separate dining car. > Better service, but eventually expensive.
Eventually expensive is probably correct. With the labor rates in russia being relatively low, the expense of having car attendants is probably low compared to the expense of purchasing and operating the train. So, it is more likely to be worth it than in countries with higher labor costs.
After arriving back from Rostov on 13 september (see part 2) we were heading for Barnaul that evening. We arrived from Rostov in the Yaroslavl station in Moscow and we would depart from the Kazanskaya station, which was just across the street. Unfortunately we had to pay a short visit to our hotel (Gamma Delta Izmailovo, quite a way from the city center) to pick up some laundry. This meant two metro trips on a very busy time, not very comfortable if you have lots of luggage.
Around 18:30 we arrived back at the station area. We wanted to have something to eat before departure of the train at 20:08. As everywhere in Moscow, there were a lot of food stalls and kiosks around. We bought some food and ate it in the waiting area of the Yaroslavl station, which was actually outside, because the station building is undergoing repairs.
About 30 minutes for departure we went to our train. This would be our first long distance train ride in Russia, so of course we were pretty curious. The train ride to Barnaul would take 3 nights. We were going to visit this city to meet a friend we met through the internet. An advantage of this was that this way we avoided the trains frequented by a lot of tourists, like the trains to Beijing, Vladivostok (Rossija) and Irkutsk (Baikal).
The train we took (N036M, the "Altai") was a "firm train", the best train category in long distance trains. These cars on these trains often have their own livery, and so did this one, as well as inscriptions of the train's name. Before boarding, our tickets and passports were chekcked by the friendly provodnitsa. She was quite surprised by our Euro Domino and reservations, which we bought at a DBAG ticket office. It took some while for her to figure out what it all meant, but finally she brought us to our compartment.
On this train we travelled "spalny vagon" (2 person compartments, the best class of travel; on some other trains we travelled "kupe", 4 person compartments). The compartment looked very nice and consisted of two beds opposite of each other. On the table a teapot, two tea cups and some information about the journey was awaiting us. The compartment also had a TV; but we couldn't adjust the volume setting, and it was set on the loudest option possible. ;-) A good thing about the TV was that we had a power plug in the compartment, so I could charge the batteries of my camera.
After the train started running the provodnitsa brought us our bedsheets, as well as some reading stuff (including RZD's magazine "Express"). Some time later a woman entered our compartment, and without saying anything she settled down on one of the beds and started browsing through a lot of papers. It turned out that she wanted to have our orders for the lunch the next day, which was seemingly included in the ticket price, and tried to find some English translation of the menu options. She couldn't find it, but with a lot of gesture talking we finally made some orders.
That evening we spent just a bit reading, talking and walking around. While walking around in the train it turned out that there were not many passengers in our car. The kupe cars were also not very busy; most passengers were located in the platskartny car (open compartment with a lot of sleeping bunks). We went to bed not too late. The beds are very comfortable, but I didn't sleep too well because Russian trains shake quite a lot. Later during the journey I got used to this.
It also takes some getting used to such a long train journey, but actually we never really got bored. It's quite a nice way to travel around, just gazing out of the window, reading, talking, etc. The scenery was nice, although not very spectacular. I imagined Siberia (which we entered during the second night) to be more empty than it was; most of the time we could see roads and villages. But probably these are just built around the railway, which is Siberia's life line. There is a surprising amount of freight on the Transsib.
The provodnitsas very very nice on this train, and clearly not really used to foreigners on this train. They provided excellent service, including cleaning the entire car twice a day and bringing tea now and then. They also happily posed for some pictures on the platforms. :-)
The food in the restaurant turned out to be pretty bad. It was very fatty it tasted like... well.. nothing really. We had the complimentary lunch in the restaurant, but didn't have the dinners there. Many travel books and travelogues suggested to buy your food from the "babushka's" (old ladies) on the platforms, but actually I found the amount of food availible on the platforms disappointing. Perhaps this phenomenon is decreasing in the last couple of years? Anyway, we bought some snacks and fruit on the platforms, but for dinner we mostly relied on the noodle meals we took with us from Holland.
The last evening, after passing Omsk, our train left the Transsib. We reached Barnaul via a single track diesel line, close to the border with Kazachstan. Unfortunately most of this was during the night, although we had some nice views from this line on the last evening, including a nice sunset. At that time we were sitting in the restaurant car for some drinks. A Russian guy came to us and offered us free beer (always nice :-). We spent the rest of the evening talking and drinking with him, altough conversations were difficult because he spoke no English and only a handful of words in German. Still a very nice experience. He turned out to be from Barnaul, but he currently worked in Omsk, so he travelled very often on this train.
BARNAUL
The next morning (16 september) we arrived in Barnaul. Although there's not much special to see, it is a very pleasant, green and nice city to walk around in. It has an tram network which is very similar to the tram network in many Russian cities. An interesting feature of the city's public transportation is the collection of buses: all buses are second hand from German-speaking countries, probably because of the large amount of people of German origin in the city. Most run around in their original livery, often still boasting German destinations. Buses include double deck buses from Berlin and former post buses from Switzerland. All buses were pretty new compared to buses in many other Russian cities.
Ulf Kutzner <kutzu...@mail.uni-mainz.de> wrote in article <416CF720.DAD84...@mail.uni-mainz.de>...
> David Eerdmans schrieb:
> > So the next day we went to the station, about one hour before departure of > > the train.
> Would commuter train have been okay in case there were no tickets > available for the Vorkuta one?
Yes, that would've also been an option. Not a very comfortable one, though...
> I guess this was true for compartment cars. However, they opened > domestic production in Tver' (and other places?) since they would have > to pay much money (DM, EUR) for Ammendorf cars.
Thanks. On one train (between Irkutsk and Ulan-Ude) we had somewhat more modern cars than the cars on the other trains (which were nearly identical). Would that have been a car from Tver?
> > The ride towards Moscow took more time than the express on the way out of > > the city, although we made less stops. The ride indeed was pretty slow.
> Do you remember whether it was train nr. 41 or 375?
375.
> Both are *a bit* slower than 93/821. A agree that 827 is fast.
Indeed. How come that one can run faster on that stretch than regular trains?
In Barnaul we tried to make reservations for the journey to Novosibirsk. For some reason it didn't work out; perhaps the train was allready fully booked out. We didn't understand it, but we didn't get the tickets. Seeing that there's a large bus station just outside the train station, we went there and saw that there were many buses going to Novosibirsk. Our friend from Barnaul also told us that the bus is faster than the train on this route. Therefore, we decided to take the bus.
Just before leaving Barnaul on 17 september we bought tickets for the bus without any problem. The bus was very old and in a very bad state. The ride turned out to be pretty nice, with some interesting scenery. Just outside Barnaul we crossed a very high road/rail bridge across a river(?). Midway we stopped at a car park to have a rest; there were several food stalls here. Later that journey we crossed the dam and bridge across the artificial Ob Sea. Shortly after that, we saw a railway museum from the bus. We decided to go there later.
NOVOSIBIRSK
We arrived in Novosibirsk in the run-down bus station. We couldn't really figure out where we were on the map in our Lonely Planet Transsiberian guide (which actually isn't that good... Trailblazer's guide is better). We decided to just board a tram and see where we would end up. The tram's looked quite bad compared to the ones in Moscow and Barnaul. On the whole, the city looked less modern than those other cities. During the ride we found out where we were and deboarded near a metro station. The metro network consists of two lines. One of the two consists only of three stations; on this line, there's just one metro train on each track, providing a shuttle service. Both trains have two drivers; one on each side, so the train can depart very quickly again from the terminal stations. This means that in the middle station, you can't be sure which track you have to board to reach your destiantion. Fortunately this is clearly indicated on an electronic indicator.
We went to the impressive long distance station of Novosibirsk. Lonely Planet advised to stay in the hotel in the station. This indeed turned out to be a very economical and nice location. Stepping out of our room we looked down into the grand main waiting hall of the station! Later that evening we took some pictures from there, but that wasn't a good idea: while we were just asleep, there was banging on the door. It turned out to be two "militsia" guys, telling us in a very unfriendly way that photography was forbidden in the station. Fortunately they left it at that...
The next day we wanted to visit the railway museum, south of the city. We went to the ugly concrete commuter station next door and figured out which train to take. Trains are not very frequent. Buying tickets was no problem; there's a clear zonal system for the commuter trains. The train turned out to be a very old commuter train in a wonderful classic Russian design. The interior was very uncomfortable (wooden benches). A good thing was that the train had automatic announcements (including one that warns for door closure; the same as in Moscow's metro system... it sounds a bit like "astarozjna, severitzne krovaltz" or something like that). The train was almost empty when we left the station, but it filled up quite a bit at the other stations in Novosibirsk.
The railway museum was pretty nice, although quite static and no descriptions in English. It consists of a large collection of steam, diesel and electric locomotives on display on several tracks. During our visit, there were some almost naked girls posing with the locomotives for a photographer... probably for a railway worker's calendar or something like that. ;-)). From the museum, we hopped on another commuter train towards Akademgorodok, a university town nearby. Arriving in the station was weird, as there's nothing pointing to the town. We started walking through the forest in the eastern direction (as indicated by Lonely Planet), and after 15 minutes we reached the town. Akademgorodok is a nice town to visit, due to the relaxed atmosphere and scenic location. Especially after visiting so many large cities it was nice to walk around in the forests. Some time later we catched a train back to Novosibirsk.
> > > So the next day we went to the station, about one hour before departure > of > > > the train.
> > Would commuter train have been okay in case there were no tickets > > available for the Vorkuta one?
> Yes, that would've also been an option. Not a very comfortable one, > though...
To be more precise: After a potential ticket refusal, you would have had enough time to catch the electrichka to Moscow the long-distance train to Barnaul?
> > I guess this was true for compartment cars. However, they opened > > domestic production in Tver' (and other places?) since they would have > > to pay much money (DM, EUR) for Ammendorf cars.
> Thanks. On one train (between Irkutsk and Ulan-Ude) we had somewhat more > modern cars than the cars on the other trains (which were nearly > identical). Would that have been a car from Tver?
> > > The ride towards Moscow took more time than the express on the way out > of > > > the city, although we made less stops. The ride indeed was pretty slow.
> > Do you remember whether it was train nr. 41 or 375?
> 375.
> > Both are *a bit* slower than 93/821. I agree that 827 is fast.
> Indeed. How come that one can run faster on that stretch than regular > trains?
I guess acceleration for EMUs is better. I guess they run at 130 kmh and reach this speed quite easily.
Ulf Kutzner <kutzu...@mail.uni-mainz.de> wrote in article <416D04FE.5253...@mail.uni-mainz.de>...
> David Eerdmans schrieb:
> > Yes, that would've also been an option. Not a very comfortable one, > > though...
> To be more precise: After a potential ticket refusal, you would have had > enough time to catch the electrichka to Moscow the long-distance train > to Barnaul?
Yes, we could have taken a commuter train at 13:00. With a change in Aleksandrov, we would then have arrived in Moscow at 17:39. Would perhaps get a bit tight with getting our laundry from the hotel, but I guess it would have been possible.
>>The train we took (N036M, the "Altai") >>The last evening, after passing Omsk, our train left the Transsib. We >>reached Barnaul via a single track diesel line, close to the border with >>Kazachstan.
> >>The last evening, after passing Omsk, our train left the Transsib. We > >>reached Barnaul via a single track diesel line, close to the border with > >>Kazachstan.
> As I read the map (single thin line), the line > Tatarskaya-Karaskuk-Kulunda-Barnaul seems to be unelectrified, or did I > misunderstand the legend?.
Tatarskaya - Karasuk - Slavgorod - Lenki - Barnaul is unelectrified, indeed; my mistake.
Omsk - Irtyshsk - Karasuk - Kamen-na-Obi - Barnaul is electrified but not used by train nr. 36.
> Did you use a Eurodomino-day for the day of departure?
> (due to departure after 19:00 this would not be required).
No, we didn't.
> > On this train we travelled "spalny vagon" (2 person > > compartments, the best class of travel; on some other > > trains we travelled "kupe", 4 person compartments).
> How much did the reservation cost?
I think it was about 40 euro.
> The power plug in the compartment didn't work, because - as I have > seen in the conductors compartment - the 220V-supply for the > comopartment has been switched off. I asked the conductor to > switch on the power supply, that was no problem.
Yes, the provodnitsa's often switch everything off which they don't find needed at that moment... usually all lights are also off during the day.
> So far, so good. I could start to recharge my batteries. Some > hours later the batteries were full enough to take again some > photos, but the my battery re-charger didn't work any longer. I > assume that there were voltage fluctuations, which weren't good > for electronic devices...
I saw some strange things happening on my battery charger on a train in Mongolia (indicator light flashing, which it usually never does...). Fortunately it's still working...
> BTW, did you or your travel partner speak Russian?
No, we don't. Would have been handy in many cases, but it wasn't a great problem.
> interior was very uncomfortable (wooden benches). A good thing was that the > train had automatic announcements (including one that warns for door > closure; the same as in Moscow's metro system... it sounds a bit like > "astarozjna, severitzne krovaltz" or something like that).
Part 5 of my Transsib travelogue. I just realized it is already off-topic for mtre, but in order not to abruptly end this thread I'm crossposting it now in mtre and mtrm (which is an almost dead group anyway). Hopefully readers won't find this disturbing.
NOVOSIBIRSK - IRKUTSK
We didn't book this leg of the journey ahead, so we had to buy tickets in Novosibirsk. We planned to take train 8 (Novosibirsk - Vladivostok), running on alternate dates at the same times as the Rossija, leaving Novosibirsk on 18 September. But if this wouldn't work out, we could also take a different train; even one or two days later wouldn't have been a great problem, as we would stay a week in or around Irkutsk.
Hearing all the bad stories about buying tickets in Russia, we feared the worst. We went to the ticket office on 17 September. After not too long a wait it was our turn and we handed over a note with our travel plans written out in Cyrillic. The ticket women seemd to understand it and started working on her computer, to produce two tickets some time later. We payed and decided to immidiately check out if we indeed got what we wanted. That wasn't the case: we got tickets for the right train, but for platskartny instead of kupe, which we requested (we should have known, because the price we paid was much lower than we expected). Of course someone else was already being served, so we thought we would have to wait again. Fortunately the next person allowed us to go first, and with the help of some Russian who spoke a bit English we managed to explain it. The sales agent clearly didn't like this, but took our tickets back and after some time we got the right tickets. Despite this, buying tickets was not nearly as bad as I expected.
The next evening we came back from town and wanted to take up our luggage in the left luggage room, where we had left it that morning. It was still closed, however. But when we left it they asked for our train number, so we supposed it would be open in time for our train. We killed some time waiting in the nice waiting room (which can be entered only upon showing your ticket), and playing on one of the ever-present slot machines. Some time later the platform for our train was announced on the electronic display. We went back to the left luggage room and it was indeed opened, and very busy with passengers for our train.
From the left luggage room we walked through the tunnel to the platforms. Only the first couple of platforms can be reached from the station building; the other ones are only used by commuter trains and can be accessed from the neighboring commuter station. The platform was very dark and with a torch the provodnitsa checked our tickets and passports, then showing us to our compartment. Our reservations were for the lower beds, but she indicated that we would (probably) be alone in this compartment, so we could also use the upper bunks if we wanted.
We indeed remained alone in the compartment for the rest of this journey (two nights). Nothing really special happened; we just enjoyed these lazy days on the train, which are a welcome rest after visiting a couple of cities. The scenery started getting better; especially during the second evening we rode through some nice hilly areas with a lot of forests, already turning into full autumn colours.
The train was not a firm train, but a "regular" fast train. I didn't notice many difference in standards though; the cars and interiors were exactly the same, only the toilets weren't as clean as on the train to Barnaul. ;-) The toilets are not very handy when trying to clean yourself, BTW. Especially the water tap is not very handy; you have to push a metal piece underneath the tap upwards to get water.
The restaurant car was in my experience much better than the one to Barnaul; although not great, the food in this car tasted like something... The restaurants are BTW usually staffed with a waiter, a cook and an "administrator". Quite a bit overstaffed I would say, especially since I never saw it busy in the restaurant cars (except on the tourist trains - see later parts of this travelogue).
The provodnitsa's were nice and did a good job keeping the rest of the car clean. The only thing that bugged me was that they didn't allow me to charche my camera's batteries in the electricity plug in the gangway (anyone knows why this would be a problem)? A good thing about this train was that some windows in the gangway could be opened. The weather was still warm and sunny, so it was a nice experience to catch some fresh air from the train windows.
IRKUTSK
The second morning we arrived in Irkutsk at 7:33 (local time). About an hour before the provodnitsa woke us up. Unfortunately, the toilets were closed, because we were already approaching another station in Irkutsk... and they remained closed 'till arrival. Not really awake (no coffee, no shower ;-) we found ourselves on the cold platform of the Irkutsk station. Upon entering the nice station building we immediately noticed this is a touristy place: many people approached us for taxi's, selling city maps and God may know what more.
We had planned to get to Olkhon that day. Olkhon is an island in Baikal lake, some hours driving north of Irkutsk. We had heard about a bus leaving from the bus station at 10:00, and minibuses leaving around 9:00. From the Lonely Planet map we found that the bus station was located quite far from the train station. We didn't feel like boarding one of the very busy trams with our luggage, so we started looking for a good looking taxi with a telephone number on the outside (which are usually the more reliable taxi's). We found one (a right hand driving Japanese car, just like many cars in Siberia) that brought us to the bus station for a small amount of money. Our impression when driving through the town was that despite the tourism, it is more run-down than the other cities we visited so far. The bus station was especially bad.
We found out that a bus to Khuzir on the island would indeed leave at 10:00, and that indeed a minibus would leave earlier. We opted for the minibus, but since there were not enough passengers the driver directed us to the big, old, uncomfortable bus that took us to Olkhon in about 8 hours. The visit to Olkhon was wonderful and highly recommendable, though way off-topic for this NG.
Back in Irkutsk we stayed in a hostel in the suburbs. To get to the city centre we would usually catch a minibus. These minibuses are far more popular than the regular public transport system in the city. Buses leave every few minutes and you can ride along at a fixed price of 6 or 8 roubles. Some are so popular, that they even run large buses now...mostly second hand from South-Korea. A nice system. All those minibuses make the traffic very chaotic, though...
Timo Valtonen <timo.valtonen@***saunalahti.fi> wrote in article <ckhr9e$6k...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>...
> A recent article on rambler.ru > http://www.rambler.ru/db/megapolis/msg.html?place=news&mid=5133512 tells > about plans to order Talgo double decker cars to be operated between St > Petersburg and Moscow, same ones as used presently by VR in InterCity > services.
That's interesting. How certain are these plans? There was also some talk about these kind of cars for the route Helsinki - St. Petersburg, right?
> According to the article modifications needed are a cabin for a > "provodnik" in every car.
:-))
> VR operates a whole train of double deckers with a > staff of three (two conductors and a refreshments sales person), but the > Russians stick on having a person per car and still a separate dining
car.
A seperate dining car is a Good Thing(tm). Will the cars also have samovars? ;-)
Ulf Kutzner <kutzu...@mail.uni-mainz.de> wrote in article <416D7005.E5202...@mail.uni-mainz.de>...
> David Eerdmans schrieb:
> > interior was very uncomfortable (wooden benches). A good thing was that the > > train had automatic announcements (including one that warns for door > > closure; the same as in Moscow's metro system... it sounds a bit like > > "astarozjna, severitzne krovaltz" or something like that).
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Betreff der Diskussion wurde in Talgo double decker plans St Pete - Moscow (was: Transsib travelogue (part 2: Moscow - Rostov v.v.)) geändert" von Timo Valtonen
> Timo Valtonen <timo.valtonen@***saunalahti.fi> wrote in article > <ckhr9e$6k...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>... > > A recent article on rambler.ru > > http://www.rambler.ru/db/megapolis/msg.html?place=news&mid=5133512 tells > > about plans to order Talgo double decker cars to be operated between St > > Petersburg and Moscow, same ones as used presently by VR in InterCity > > services.
> That's interesting. How certain are these plans? There was also some talk > about these kind of cars for the route Helsinki - St. Petersburg, right?
VR has not been planning to operate double deckers to St Petersburg even thouh they did have test runs to Vyborg and beyond in the late 1990-s. The biggest obstacle is platform use. The double deckers uses 55 cm high platforms, Russian platforms are way too high. There is also some problems with the profile. I don't know exactly, but it should be something to do with the width of the waggon on the top.
The present VR waggons used to St Petersburg have been built in 1972-1985 and have been last thoroughly overhauled in 1992, so they have to be renewed. Only the first class and restaurant waggons have been equipted with air conditioning. VR would like to use double system Pendolinos when the all the works on the Helsinki - St Petersburg line have been finished, but that is expected to be ready in 2008 according to latest information. In the mean time VR would like to switch to using present single deck IC cars, but they have not yet been certified to be used on Russian railroads yet. Their maximum speed is 160 km/h just as the presently used cars can do. Here is a VR brochure showing both single deck and double decker IC waggons currently in use (sorry, in Finnish only, but nice pics): http://www.vr.fi/heo/eng/junat/vaunukuvasto_ic.pdf
> > According to the article modifications needed are a cabin for a > > "provodnik" in every car.
> :-))
> > VR operates a whole train of double deckers with a > > staff of three (two conductors and a refreshments sales person), but the > > Russians stick on having a person per car and still a separate dining > car.
> A seperate dining car is a Good Thing(tm). Will the cars also have > samovars? ;-)
Certainly! A Russian train without samovars is like a rainy day...
But back to Talgo double deckers. A Russian passenger train company called PKK belonging to the biggest Russian cargo operator ZAO Eurosib wants to buy same kinds of waggons as VR now uses on its domestic IC services built by Talgo works (formerly Transtech) in Otanmäki in Finland. Here is a Talgo brochure of the cars, this time in English: http://www.talgo.fi/talgo-e/b-osa/pdf/doubled.pdf They would like to have some 15 waggons to start the Moscow - St Peterburg service, but the negotiations seem to be tough as Talgo is keeping a low profile in this matter. Price is a big question since the production cost of Tver waggons is only a fraction of what the Talgo double deckers would cost. This deal would start waggon deliveries from Otanmäki works to Russia again. Sales to Russia used to be a big thing for Otanmäki works, but they came to a halt when the USSR ceased to exist and Transtech ended up with hundreds of unpaid special freight waggons (mainly for car transport) on hand. Transtech went belly up and is now part of the Spanish Talgo group.
David Eerdmans <usene...@xs4all.nl> wrote: > Ulf Kutzner <kutzu...@mail.uni-mainz.de> wrote: > > David Eerdmans schrieb: > > > interior was very uncomfortable (wooden benches). A good thing was that > > > the train had automatic announcements (including one that warns for door > > > closure; the same as in Moscow's metro system... it sounds a bit like > > > "astarozjna, severitzne krovaltz" or something like that). > > =========== ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~ > > (quite okay) dveri zakryvayutsya. > Which means? (I suppose "attention, doors closing").
Hmmm. My Russian is lousy, but "dveri zakryvayutsya" would mean "doors closing. IIRC, 'attention' would be 'vnimaniye' (not sure about the proper transliteration); I'm not sure about 'astarozjna' -- perhaps 'caution' or something similar...?
>>That's interesting. How certain are these plans? There was also some talk >>about these kind of cars for the route Helsinki - St. Petersburg, right?
> VR has not been planning to operate double deckers to St Petersburg even > thouh they did have test runs to Vyborg and beyond in the late 1990-s. The > biggest obstacle is platform use. The double deckers uses 55 cm high > platforms, Russian platforms are way too high. There is also some problems > with the profile. I don't know exactly, but it should be something to do > with the width of the waggon on the top.
cut
In The Netherlands we have many double deckers where the problems you mentioned have been taken care off: Standard platform height may continue to be used: he passenger enters/exits at standard platform height and from there either steps down or up into either the lower or the top level. The waggons need to be narrower at the top: because a double decker waggon is higher than standard and sways sideways the top would get too close to posts and other constructions along the line. J.
> VR has not been planning to operate double deckers to St Petersburg even > thouh they did have test runs to Vyborg and beyond in the late 1990-s. The > biggest obstacle is platform use. The double deckers uses 55 cm high > platforms, Russian platforms are way too high.
They could have doors above the bogies, like S-Bahn Zürich and many similar doubledeck cars.
jjr wrote: > In The Netherlands we have many double deckers where the problems you > mentioned have been taken care off:
And some new problems have been introduced.
> Standard platform height may continue to be used: he passenger > enters/exits at standard platform height and from there either steps > down or up into either the lower or the top level.
The same as in (West-)Germany, the platforms are too high for doors on the lower level of dd stock, and too low for a stepless boarding through doors located above the bogies (NL and parts of DE use this arrangement). This is not suitable for some handicapped passengers, for example.
> The waggons need to be narrower at the top: because a double decker > waggon is higher than standard and sways sideways the top would get too > close to posts and other constructions along the line.
This caused some problems for taller passengers - I am sure the Nederlanders would like the VR DD stock for not risking to bump their heads on somewhat when riding on the upper deck...
And, there is virtually no luggage room, but that is not so much of a problem when used in Randstad commuter trains.
> jjr wrote: > > In The Netherlands we have many double deckers where the problems you > > mentioned have been taken care off: > And some new problems have been introduced.
Perhaps, but...
> > Standard platform height may continue to be used: he passenger > > enters/exits at standard platform height and from there either steps > > down or up into either the lower or the top level. > The same as in (West-)Germany, the platforms are too high for doors > on the lower level of dd stock, and too low for a stepless boarding > through doors located above the bogies (NL and parts of DE use this > arrangement). This is not suitable for some handicapped passengers, > for example.
How is this any different than the case with normal wagons (those having their entire passenger compartment above the bogies)? Perhaps it doesn't _gain_ level, stepless boarding, but it doesn't _lose_ anything, either.
> > The waggons need to be narrower at the top: because a double decker > > waggon is higher than standard and sways sideways the top would get too > > close to posts and other constructions along the line. > This caused some problems for taller passengers - I am sure the > Nederlanders would like the VR DD stock for not risking to bump their > heads on somewhat when riding on the upper deck...
This doesn't seem to be a problem in the Netherlands, and the Dutch are reputed to be among the tallest (if not the tallest) population in Europe. Further, in my experience (admittedly wholly unscientific), the upper deck is more popular than the lower.
> And, there is virtually no luggage room, but that is not so much of > a problem when used in Randstad commuter trains.
This strikes me as just completely wrong. Yes, there is less _overhead_ luggage space, but there is considerable space for luggage between seats (on both upper and lower levels), as well as space for large items (large bags, bicycles, etc.) in the sections over the bogies.
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Betreff der Diskussion wurde in Talgo double decker plans St Pete - Moscow (was: Transsib travelogue (part 2: Moscow - Rostov v.v.)) geändert" von David Eerdmans
Timo Valtonen <timo.valtonen@***saunalahti.fi> wrote in article <ckpql1$12...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>...
> VR has not been planning to operate double deckers to St Petersburg even > thouh they did have test runs to Vyborg and beyond in the late 1990-s. The > biggest obstacle is platform use. The double deckers uses 55 cm high > platforms, Russian platforms are way too high.
Most Russian stations have low platforms. Those in and around St. Petersburg indeed have low platforms, but they could use one dedicated low platform for this double deck train.
How are they going to handle this on the Msk-St.P. double deck train that you mentioned?
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