What's happening with PATH ?

[John Levine]

NJ Transit, the NYC subway, Metro-North, LIRR, and Amtrak are all
coming back to life. I haven't been able to find anything about PATH
since that picture of water flowing into a Hoboken station.

The PA's web site has a generic message from this morning saying that
it's messed up and they're working on it. Well, yes, we know that.
Any further info anywhere on what's damaged and what they're doing?

--
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

[James Robinson]

John Levine <jo...@iecc.com> wrote:

> NJ Transit, the NYC subway, Metro-North, LIRR, and Amtrak are all
> coming back to life. I haven't been able to find anything about PATH
> since that picture of water flowing into a Hoboken station.
>
> The PA's web site has a generic message from this morning saying that
> it's messed up and they're working on it. Well, yes, we know that.
> Any further info anywhere on what's damaged and what they're doing?

One article suggested that mid-town Manhattan service might begin on
Monday, but the lower-Manhattan service would be out for "significantly
longer". Another source suggested Nov 9 as a possible date, but it could
be even later.

[conklin]

What is interesting is how much people in NYC have to depend on electricity
and fragile overheads. Here in the less transit-dependent areas, we have
back up heat and light in both houses, plus a source of water in one. But
even during the past hurricanes, with the power off, water stayed on because
the city towers still had a lot of water. In an apartment, you can't run a
generator, or store anything, even propane for cooking. I suspect most
people around here also have grills outside to cook on. The Times has
pictures of people walking or using a bicycle. That seems to be about it
until the subways get going again. Of course, we can do that too.


"John Levine" <jo...@iecc.com> wrote in message
news:k7228o$atl$1...@leila.iecc.com...

[danny burstein]

In <F56dnVT9ct3YqQjN...@earthlink.com> "conklin" <nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:

>What is interesting is how much people in NYC have to depend on electricity
>and fragile overheads. Here in the less transit-dependent areas, we have
>back up heat and light in both houses, plus a source of water in one. But
>even during the past hurricanes, with the power off, water stayed on because
>the city towers still had a lot of water. In an apartment, you can't run a
>generator, or store anything, even propane for cooking.

In most NYC homes and apartments, natural gas is used for cooking.
Generally you can operate the stove top without electricity [a]
although the over might need it.

The gas supply stayed up pretyt much everywhere, only getting
shut down in areas where there was actual damage to homes
leading to the utility cutting off all gas supplies.

[a] old [b] ovens/stoves used coninuously operating pilot
lights for the stove tops and "place long match here"
lighting for the oven. Newer ones have electrical "spark"
ignitors for the top - which you can get around by
using matches. But the stoves/broilers may require
a near continuous electrical suply for a "glow plate".

[b] gas powered stoves/ovens last just about forever, so
there are plenty of mid 20th century usints still around.


--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

[conklin]

"danny burstein" <dan...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:k73cmf$fpp$1...@reader1.panix.com...

We understand that the newest gas stoves do require electricity to run.
But, yes, the older ones would work.

What surprised me is that NYC's water supply seems to have been cut off in
places. It is gravity feed, so why has it failed? Is it only tall
buildings which require pumps?

[danny burstein]

In <CsadnQmP07-a2wjN...@earthlink.com> "conklin" <nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:

>We understand that the newest gas stoves do require electricity to run.
>But, yes, the older ones would work.

Again, just about all the newer stoves can be used by
lighting the tops with a match. Note that _some_ have
various safety interlocks that still require electricity.

Many newer ovens are a Big Pain.

>What surprised me is that NYC's water supply seems to have been cut off in
>places. It is gravity feed, so why has it failed? Is it only tall
>buildings which require pumps?

In just about all the city the water mains under the street
are gravity feed and continued working fine. There are
some trailing edges where it's pumped and if there was
extended failure, then there could have been trouble.

The other issue is that if the building is more than
five or so stories (depending on where in the system..)
then the water has to be pumped upstairs. But it's more
complicated than that...

Typically the water is pumped from the street main to
the rooftop tank, and then goes from there back to
the building. So even the first floor, which "could"
be ok if conected directly to the mains, will go
dry once the rooftop tank is used up.

[conklin]

"danny burstein" <dan...@panix.com> wrote in message

news:k73ovb$8bi$1...@reader1.panix.com...

> In <CsadnQmP07-a2wjN...@earthlink.com> "conklin"
> <nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>>We understand that the newest gas stoves do require electricity to run.
>>But, yes, the older ones would work.
>
> Again, just about all the newer stoves can be used by
> lighting the tops with a match. Note that _some_ have
> various safety interlocks that still require electricity.
>
> Many newer ovens are a Big Pain.
>
>>What surprised me is that NYC's water supply seems to have been cut off in
>>places. It is gravity feed, so why has it failed? Is it only tall
>>buildings which require pumps?
>
> In just about all the city the water mains under the street
> are gravity feed and continued working fine. There are
> some trailing edges where it's pumped and if there was
> extended failure, then there could have been trouble.
>
> The other issue is that if the building is more than
> five or so stories (depending on where in the system..)
> then the water has to be pumped upstairs. But it's more
> complicated than that...
>
> Typically the water is pumped from the street main to
> the rooftop tank, and then goes from there back to
> the building. So even the first floor, which "could"
> be ok if conected directly to the mains, will go
> dry once the rooftop tank is used up.
>

The apartment I grew up in was on the first floor. There were six floors in
the building. There was no complex water system at all. I kind of figured
maybe it was still all that simple.

[danny burstein]

In <urOdnaCWC6ji9gjN...@earthlink.com> "conklin" <nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:

>The apartment I grew up in was on the first floor. There were six floors in
>the building. There was no complex water system at all. I kind of figured
>maybe it was still all that simple.

You were in an area where the water pressure got to the sixth...

NYC building/zoning codes took the "mains pressure" into
account, so in some areas you could go six stories
without a water tank [a], others five or four...

This was a big reason why builders would design
up to certain heights.

[a] the other issue, of course, is the cost
of installing elevators. Depending on when
in NYC history the building went up, the
exact height before requiring an elevator
varied, but was most often (until recently)
up to six stories.

[conklin]

"danny burstein" <dan...@panix.com> wrote in message

news:k73qmd$8jf$1...@reader1.panix.com...

> In <urOdnaCWC6ji9gjN...@earthlink.com> "conklin"
> <nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>>The apartment I grew up in was on the first floor. There were six floors
>>in
>>the building. There was no complex water system at all. I kind of
>>figured
>>maybe it was still all that simple.
>
> You were in an area where the water pressure got to the sixth...
>
> NYC building/zoning codes took the "mains pressure" into
> account, so in some areas you could go six stories
> without a water tank [a], others five or four...
>
> This was a big reason why builders would design
> up to certain heights.
>
> [a] the other issue, of course, is the cost
> of installing elevators. Depending on when
> in NYC history the building went up, the
> exact height before requiring an elevator
> varied, but was most often (until recently)
> up to six stories.
>

We had an elevator, and I guess, good water pressure too!! But most of the
houses in the area were row houses with a few single-family houses. Beyond
us, it was almost all single-family (Flatbush).

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 3, 11:12 am, "conklin" <nilknoc...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>  In an apartment, you can't run a
> generator, or store anything, even propane for cooking.

Many apartments have gas stoves, depending on their location.

In this storm, suburban Phila was hit much, much harder than the city
itself. City residents kept their power, suburban residents lost it.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 3, 11:19 am, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

> [a] old [b] ovens/stoves used coninuously operating pilot
>    lights for the stove tops and "place long match here"
>    lighting for the oven.

Our old gas oven (1948) worked that way. I hated it, since the oven
always lit with a big poof.

Our 1971 stove/oven (Caloric) was loaded with pilot lights for some
reason (no electric). But one of them somewhere was always going
out. The stovetop gas supply needed complete replacing at big bucks.

One benefit/danger of gas stoves was that they could be turned out as
a source of heat when there was no power. But that was strongly
discouraged being dangerous.

As to generators, several deaths have been reported from generator use
due to carbon monoxide poisoning.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 3, 3:18 pm, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

> [a] the other issue, of course, is the cost
> of installing elevators. Depending on when
> in NYC history the building went up, the
> exact height before requiring an elevator
> varied, but was most often (until recently)
> up to six stories.

Even for a young person, living on the fourth through sixth floor of a
walkup building must not have been fun, especially carrying
groceries. But then, New Yorkers have less heart disease than other
people.

[Phil Kane]

On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 16:08:57 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

>Even for a young person, living on the fourth through sixth floor of a
>walkup building must not have been fun, especially carrying
>groceries. But then, New Yorkers have less heart disease than other
>people.

When I was in my late 20s - early 30s we lived on the fourth floor of
a new walk-up apartment "block" and thought very little of it. Twenty
years later we lived on the fourth floor of an elevator-equipped
building and the few times that the elevator failed it was a struggle
to walk those stairs.

Times - and people - change.
---

Phil Kane - Beaverton, OR
PNW Beburg MP 28.0 - OE District

[danny burstein]

Sir, you've just been exposed to one of the fundamental
changes taking place in the universe. Despite what the
physicists tell us, it's pretty clear that the unviersal
constant of "G" (gravity) is steadily increasing.

For confirmation, step onto you bathroom scale. For
most of us, the numbers are higher than a decade ago...

[Adam H. Kerman]

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

>Even for a young person, living on the fourth through sixth floor of a
>walkup building must not have been fun, especially carrying
>groceries. But then, New Yorkers have less heart disease than other
>people.

Huh? I've had third-floor apartments. It didn't prevent me from doing
various things. A lot of people prefer not hearing their upstairs neighbors
walking around.

In an office building, if stairs are readily accessible and it's not
too many stories up, I use the stairs. I try to avoid temptations to
get lazier as I age.

[Adam H. Kerman]

danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>Phil Kane <Phil...@nov.shmovz.ka.pop> writes:
>>On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 16:08:57 -0700 (PDT), hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

>>>Even for a young person, living on the fourth through sixth floor of a
>>>walkup building must not have been fun, especially carrying
>>>groceries. But then, New Yorkers have less heart disease than other
>>>people.

>>When I was in my late 20s - early 30s we lived on the fourth floor of
>>a new walk-up apartment "block" and thought very little of it. Twenty
>>years later we lived on the fourth floor of an elevator-equipped
>>building and the few times that the elevator failed it was a struggle
>>to walk those stairs.

>>Times - and people - change.

>Sir, you've just been exposed to one of the fundamental
>changes taking place in the universe. Despite what the
>physicists tell us, it's pretty clear that the unviersal
>constant of "G" (gravity) is steadily increasing.

>For confirmation, step onto you bathroom scale. For
>most of us, the numbers are higher than a decade ago...

There was less gravity on the higher floor you lived on when you were
younger!

[Glen Labah]

In article <k73ovb$8bi$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

> Typically the water is pumped from the street main to
> the rooftop tank, and then goes from there back to
> the building. So even the first floor, which "could"
> be ok if conected directly to the mains, will go
> dry once the rooftop tank is used up.

One of the big hotels (I forget which one) has had its photo in our
local newspaper recently as it has lost most of the top three floors.
The structure part is mostly still there but much of everything else is
gone.

So, if your tank got blown away, you don't have to wait for the tank to
go dry.

--
Please note this e-mail address is a pit of spam due to e-mail address
harvesters on Usenet. Response time to e-mail sent here is slow.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 3, 10:53 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

> hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> >Even for a young person, living on the fourth through sixth floor of a
> >walkup building must not have been fun, especially carrying
> >groceries.  But then, New Yorkers have less heart disease than other
> >people.
>
> Huh? I've had third-floor apartments. It didn't prevent me from doing
> various things. A lot of people prefer not hearing their upstairs neighbors
> walking around.

Third floor is tolerable. Lots of garden court apartments have three
floors.

It's the fourth through sixth floors that get difficult.

What happens to older people with health conditions? What happens to
a person of any age with a temporary problem, like a broken leg or
sprained ankle, or some other illness?

> In an office building, if stairs are readily accessible and it's not
> too many stories up, I use the stairs. I try to avoid temptations to
> get lazier as I age.

In high school we had a job on the fifth floor of a building. We did
not enjoy walking up to the fifth flloor and used the elevator when
possible.

Indeed, our high scool had some classrooms on the fourth floor and we
didn't enjoy going from the first to the fourth. Nobody liked going
from the basement to the fourth.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 3, 10:53 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

> In an office building, if stairs are readily accessible and it's not
> too many stories up, I use the stairs. I try to avoid temptations to
> get lazier as I age.

My mother lived in a two-story plus basement house. Undoubtedly
taking laundry up from the basement to the second floor was good for
her. But I don't think she would've liked going from a basement to a
third or fourth floor, or to carry groceries up such steps.

[David Lesher]

"conklin" <nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:

>What surprised me is that NYC's water supply seems to have
>been cut off in places. It is gravity feed, so why has it
>failed? Is it only tall buildings which require pumps?

As I recall, 5 stories is the head available from
upstate. That's why the building code allows 5 but not 6 story
walkups. If you need a water boost pump, you also need an
elevator.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Adam H. Kerman]

hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>On Nov 3, 10:53 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

>>>Even for a young person, living on the fourth through sixth floor of a
>>>walkup building must not have been fun, especially carrying
>>>groceries. But then, New Yorkers have less heart disease than other
>>>people.

>>Huh? I've had third-floor apartments. It didn't prevent me from doing
>>various things. A lot of people prefer not hearing their upstairs neighbors
>>walking around.

>Third floor is tolerable. Lots of garden court apartments have three
>floors.

>It's the fourth through sixth floors that get difficult.

I never lived on the fourth floor of a walkup. Typically, Chicago lacks
such buildings, although a few were built in the last 20 years.

>What happens to older people with health conditions? What happens to
>a person of any age with a temporary problem, like a broken leg or
>sprained ankle, or some other illness?

They move?

[Adam H. Kerman]

When my mother was pregnant with my younger brother, we lived on the
top floor of a walk up.

Clearly, people cope with these buildings, else they couldn't find
tenants.

[Agent_C]

On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 18:49:16 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
<dan...@panix.com> wrote:

>Typically the water is pumped from the street main to
>the rooftop tank, and then goes from there back to
>the building. So even the first floor, which "could"
>be ok if conected directly to the mains, will go
>dry once the rooftop tank is used up.

I'm not sure that's accurate in all cases.

I live in an 18 story pre-war building in Midtown and many of my
friends live in similar buildings around town.

In our building, floors 1 thru 6 get their cold water directly from
the street. Above the 6th floor is gravity fed from a tank on the
roof. There are auxiliary pumps in the basement which feed the water
tank continually.

During the blackout of 2003 there was sufficient supply in the tank to
service the building for approximately 12 hours. Tenants on the lower
floors were unaffected when the supply ran out.

That was also the case in the London Terrace complex in Chelsea. My
friends on 2 had water this entire week. While people on the upper
floor for the most part fled to friends and family elsewhere.

A_C

[Steven M. O'Neill]

Agent_C <agent-c-h...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 18:49:16 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
><dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>Typically the water is pumped from the street main to
>>the rooftop tank, and then goes from there back to
>>the building. So even the first floor, which "could"
>>be ok if conected directly to the mains, will go
>>dry once the rooftop tank is used up.
>
>
>I'm not sure that's accurate in all cases.
>
>I live in an 18 story pre-war building in Midtown and many of my
>friends live in similar buildings around town.
>
>In our building, floors 1 thru 6 get their cold water directly from
>the street. Above the 6th floor is gravity fed from a tank on the
>roof. There are auxiliary pumps in the basement which feed the water
>tank continually.

Makes sense. Saves on the electricity used to pump the water up.

--
Steven O'Neill ste...@panix.com
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo

[danny burstein]

In <75jc985r81o7mhc21...@4ax.com> Agent_C <agent-c-h...@nyc.rr.com> writes:

>That was also the case in the London Terrace complex in Chelsea. My
>friends on 2 had water this entire week. While people on the upper
>floor for the most part fled to friends and family elsewhere.

Doesn't London Terrace generate its own electricity? Or
am I thinking of the complex next door... (Penn South?)

[conklin]

"Agent_C" <agent-c-h...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:75jc985r81o7mhc21...@4ax.com...

What is amazing is how, with crowded lving, there is so little ability to
compensate for interruptions of standard services. You can't run even a
small generator in an apartment, you know, the kind you can get at Harbor
Freight for $89 on sale.

[conklin]

"David Lesher" <wb8...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:k750pp$aho$1...@reader1.panix.com...

> "conklin" <nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>>What surprised me is that NYC's water supply seems to have
>>been cut off in places. It is gravity feed, so why has it
>>failed? Is it only tall buildings which require pumps?
>
> As I recall, 5 stories is the head available from
> upstate. That's why the building code allows 5 but not 6 story
> walkups. If you need a water boost pump, you also need an
> elevator.

I thought it was 6, at least in the buidling I grew up in.

[Agent_C]

On Sun, 4 Nov 2012 12:51:34 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
<dan...@panix.com> wrote:

>Doesn't London Terrace generate its own electricity? Or
>am I thinking of the complex next door... (Penn South?)

Penn South, not London Terrace.

A_C

[Agent_C]

On Sun, 4 Nov 2012 08:06:33 -0500, "conklin"
<nilkn...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>What is amazing is how, with crowded lving, there is so little ability to
>compensate for interruptions of standard services. You can't run even a
>small generator in an apartment, you know, the kind you can get at Harbor
>Freight for $89 on sale.

We actually talked about that last night at dinner. You could
theoretically run a small generator if you had a terrace or Juliet
balcony, as many Manhattan apartments do.

I think it would be very ill advised though, the fumes would be too
close to your windows.

A_C

[Agent_C]

On Sun, 4 Nov 2012 12:11:37 +0000 (UTC), ste...@panix.com (Steven M.
O'Neill) wrote:

>Makes sense. Saves on the electricity used to pump the water up.

Yes, but with a slightly more complex plumbing schema.

A_C

[Michael Moroney]

Maybe it depends on whether the building is on a bit of a hill? One on
top of a hill may need a pump over 5 storeys but at the bottom it doesn't
need one for 6 or more.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 4, 9:06 am, "conklin" <nilknoc...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> What is amazing is how, with crowded lving, there is so little ability to
> compensate for interruptions of standard services.  You can't run even a
> small generator in an apartment, you know, the kind you can get at Harbor

> Freight for $89 on sale.-

But overall service is much more reliable. In 50 years of city
living, my family lost power only once due to a local problem. In
suburban communities, even small storms can knock out power.

As mentioned, Phila was spared the damages incurred by its suburbs.
Overall, New York City did better than the suburbs, such as north
Jersey.

[Stephen Sprunk]

On 04-Nov-12 11:26, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Nov 4, 9:06 am, "conklin" <nilknoc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> What is amazing is how, with crowded lving, there is so little
>> ability to compensate for interruptions of standard services. You
>> can't run even a small generator in an apartment, you know, the
>> kind you can get at Harbor Freight for $89 on sale.-
>
> But overall service is much more reliable. In 50 years of city
> living, my family lost power only once due to a local problem. In
> suburban communities, even small storms can knock out power.

How much of that is due to utility lines being above vs. below ground?

In the suburb where I grew up (with above ground utilities), we would
lose power every time there was a major storm--several times per year,
often for days at a time. In the suburb where I live now (with under
ground utilities), I've lost power a total of ~30 seconds in 5 years
("smart" meter upgrades). The utility passes on the extra cost, of
course, but IMHO it's worth the difference in reliability.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

[conklin]

"Stephen Sprunk" <ste...@sprunk.org> wrote in message
news:k769hk$v6t$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 04-Nov-12 11:26, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> On Nov 4, 9:06 am, "conklin" <nilknoc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> What is amazing is how, with crowded lving, there is so little
>>> ability to compensate for interruptions of standard services. You
>>> can't run even a small generator in an apartment, you know, the
>>> kind you can get at Harbor Freight for $89 on sale.-
>>
>> But overall service is much more reliable. In 50 years of city
>> living, my family lost power only once due to a local problem. In
>> suburban communities, even small storms can knock out power.
>
> How much of that is due to utility lines being above vs. below ground?
>
> In the suburb where I grew up (with above ground utilities), we would
> lose power every time there was a major storm--several times per year,
> often for days at a time. In the suburb where I live now (with under
> ground utilities), I've lost power a total of ~30 seconds in 5 years
> ("smart" meter upgrades). The utility passes on the extra cost, of
> course, but IMHO it's worth the difference in reliability.
>

They had to replace our underground lines because they kept shorting out.
Always in October, by the way, when use was low and voltages higher. After
that, no issues.

[Adam H. Kerman]

conklin <nilkn...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>What is amazing is how, with crowded lving, there is so little ability to
>compensate for interruptions of standard services. You can't run even a
>small generator in an apartment, you know, the kind you can get at Harbor
>Freight for $89 on sale.

What if your apartment has a chimney flue for the fireplace? I know not
all apartment fireplaces were built with large enough flues for a working
fireplace (and may have been sealed off), but why couldn't that be used
for exhaust?

[Steven M. O'Neill]

Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

Would the exhaust be hot enough to make the chimney draw?

[conklin]

"Steven M. O'Neill" <ste...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:k76sti$g0o$2...@reader1.panix.com...

> Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>conklin <nilkn...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>What is amazing is how, with crowded lving, there is so little ability to
>>>compensate for interruptions of standard services. You can't run even a
>>>small generator in an apartment, you know, the kind you can get at Harbor
>>>Freight for $89 on sale.
>>
>>What if your apartment has a chimney flue for the fireplace? I know not
>>all apartment fireplaces were built with large enough flues for a working
>>fireplace (and may have been sealed off), but why couldn't that be used
>>for exhaust?
>
> Would the exhaust be hot enough to make the chimney draw?

No way. You'd kill yourself trying that trick.

[Steven M. O'Neill]

Sounds like a bad bet to make on any account.

[conklin]

"Steven M. O'Neill" <ste...@panix.com> wrote in message

news:k7762n$dp6$1...@reader1.panix.com...

We used to have only a fireplace to heat a house in the Catskills. As a
kid, I got used to hauling wood, lighting a fire and making the fireplace
draw. You really do need to preheat the chimney in many cases to start the
draw, and then a relatively hot fire to keep the flue working. Otherwise,
you get a lot of smoke. A generator in a fireplace would not draw at all
and the exhaust would go into the room. Currently we have a wood stove at
the cabin which requires that you open the door to get enough of a draw when
you light it!! After the flue is hot, all is well, but up to then, well,
nothing. Just smoke in the room. For the fireplace, I always light a
twisted newspaper at the end, like a torch, and hold it up the flue to make
sure it draws right off and that keeps smoke out of the room. Besides, for
a fireplace, you need a whole lot of wood since about 90% of the heat
generated goes up the chimney.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Steven M. O'Neill <ste...@panix.com> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>conklin <nilkn...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>>>What is amazing is how, with crowded lving, there is so little ability to
>>>compensate for interruptions of standard services. You can't run even a
>>>small generator in an apartment, you know, the kind you can get at Harbor
>>>Freight for $89 on sale.

>>What if your apartment has a chimney flue for the fireplace? I know not
>>all apartment fireplaces were built with large enough flues for a working
>>fireplace (and may have been sealed off), but why couldn't that be used
>>for exhaust?

>Would the exhaust be hot enough to make the chimney draw?

Good point. You'd need an exhaust fan, not especially useful with
no electricity.

[Bolwerk]

On 11/4/2012 8:06 AM, conklin wrote:
>
> What is amazing is how, with crowded lving, there is so little ability to
> compensate for interruptions of standard services. You can't run even a
> small generator in an apartment, you know, the kind you can get at Harbor
> Freight for $89 on sale.

How often do interruptions happen? Outages that last this long in NYC
seem a bit unprecedented.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Nov 4, 1:44 pm, Stephen Sprunk <step...@sprunk.org> wrote:

> > But overall service is much more reliable.  In 50 years of city
> > living, my family lost power only once due to a local problem.  In
> > suburban communities, even small storms can knock out power.
>
> How much of that is due to utility lines being above vs. below ground?

Ironically, our suburban house power line is underground, while the
city house power line is above ground (though runs along back walls).
The problem is in the trunk lines, and both are above ground. The
city lines do not have as many trees near them, and are also along
streets with lower traffic speeds. Suburban line poles regularly get
hit by errant motorists.

[Glen Labah]

In article <u4qc981v7fhu74lu9...@4ax.com>,

One of the big new apartment buildings in Portland has a gas turbine
generator in it, and the exhaust from the turbine is used to heat water
and provide other heating needs. They achieve something like 85%
overall thermal efficiency.

Most people couldn't afford to do that on their own, however, as the
economy of scale just isn't there for a small operation.

--
Please note this e-mail address is a pit of spam due to e-mail address
harvesters on Usenet. Response time to e-mail sent here is slow.

[Miles Bader]

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> writes:
> In an office building, if stairs are readily accessible and it's not
> too many stories up, I use the stairs. I try to avoid temptations to
> get lazier as I age.

A few years ago I worked on the 14th floor and always used the stairs.
The main annoyance wasn't so much the effort as the extra time it
took. [For a while I tried _running_ up, and _that_ was pretty
painful...]

The surprising thing to me, though, was the number of other people I
saw on the stairs, many clearly going up long distances; during lunch
time etc, it was downright crowded!

-miles

--
Advice, n. The smallest current coin.

[Adam H. Kerman]

I wonder if there will be a baby boom in August.

[conklin]

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message
news:k77shc$50v$1...@news.albasani.net...

That nonsense was disproven years ago. Reporters just call a lot of
hospitals. Some are up a little, some down. They only report the ups, not
the downs, and get a story. A fake one.

[spsffan]

Well, these days with modern birth control, I'm not surprised. But back
before that, and certainly among couples wanting to have kids
anyway......Well, there's nothing else to do. :).

[conklin]

"spsffan" <sps...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:k799r...@news3.newsguy.com...

People under a great deal of stress do not have a glorious time of it, and
that includes sex.

[Sancho Panza]

On 11/3/2012 7:06 PM, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> As to generators, several deaths have been reported from generator use
> due to carbon monoxide poisoning.

That is why any competent person would never operate one indoors.

[Sancho Panza]

Including taking care of other basic survival tasks like food, clothing
and shelter, not to mention sanitation.

[Phil Kane]

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 15:18:00 +0900, Miles Bader <mi...@gnu.org> wrote:

>A few years ago I worked on the 14th floor and always used the stairs.
>The main annoyance wasn't so much the effort as the extra time it
>took. [For a while I tried _running_ up, and _that_ was pretty
>painful...]
>
>The surprising thing to me, though, was the number of other people I
>saw on the stairs, many clearly going up long distances; during lunch
>time etc, it was downright crowded!

In the 1970s I worked for a guy who not only quick-walked a mile each
way from the bus station to the office and up and down several flights
of stairs in the office building several times a day, he was out on
the golf course every Saturday (with the exception of the day of his
son's wedding and then only under protest) and walked the course, no
cart, no caddy.

Several years later I found out that he needed a double heart bypass
for some congenital problem Strange things happen in this world.
---
Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR

[Phil Kane]

On Mon, 5 Nov 2012 08:14:36 +0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<a...@chinet.com> wrote:

>>How often do interruptions happen? Outages that last this long in NYC
>>seem a bit unprecedented.
>
>I wonder if there will be a baby boom in August.

If other outages are an example, I wouldn't be surprised. So much for
effective birth control.

[Sancho Panza]

It's the Jim Fixx lesson.

[Stephen Sprunk]

The electric light bulb has been known for decades as the most effective
form of birth control in human history. Electrify a rural village and
the birth rate drops like a rock.

> ---
> Phil Kane
> Beaverton, OR

Please fix your signature separator.

[Glen Labah]

In article <50986434$0$9813$607e...@cv.net>,

We have several deaths in our area every year, and it usually isn't that
they were operating them indoors but outdoors and too close to the house
and/or other ways that caused the exhaust to flow back inside.

[spsffan]

On 11/5/2012 8:21 PM, Glen Labah wrote:
> In article <50986434$0$9813$607e...@cv.net>,
> Sancho Panza <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 11/3/2012 7:06 PM, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> As to generators, several deaths have been reported from generator use
>>> due to carbon monoxide poisoning.
>>
>> That is why any competent person would never operate one indoors.
>
>
> We have several deaths in our area every year, and it usually isn't that
> they were operating them indoors but outdoors and too close to the house
> and/or other ways that caused the exhaust to flow back inside.
>

Yes, and we have several deaths every year due to people trying to heat
their house with charcoal fires.

Pardon my saying so, but we can do without people that stupid.

[Phil Kane]

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 21:48:42 -0600, Stephen Sprunk
<ste...@sprunk.org> wrote:

>> ---
>> Phil Kane
>> Beaverton, OR
>
>Please fix your signature separator.

I have no control over that - Forte Agent inserts it "at no extra
cost" and has been doing so on every message I post to this and other
newsgroups. I for one would rather do away with it.

What's your problem?

[Clark F Morris]

Check my reply. I'm leaving off a signature to see what Agent does.
I'm using 7.0

[Adam H. Kerman]

The men in Jim Fixx's family weren't long lived, tending to die from
heart disease in their 40s. I think Fixx thought he could possibly
influence or overcome his own genetic predisposition. In any event,
he lived life to the fullest.

I think that's the lesson to learn from Jim Fixx.

[Stephen Sprunk]

I've looked through various forums, and it appears that Forte Agent
_does not_ insert a separator of its own; the separator, if any, must be
included in the user-edited signature. I downloaded Agent 7.0 to see
for myself, and that's exactly what happened.

So, please edit your signature to begin with "-- " rather than "---".

[Philip Nasadowski]

In article <k7cnch$kv9$1...@dont-email.me>,

Stephen Sprunk <ste...@sprunk.org> wrote:

> So, please edit your signature to begin with "-- " rather than "---".

What the fuck does it matter?

[Stephen Sprunk]

Any decent newsreader will automatically remove properly marked
signatures when you reply--as I suspect yours did when you replied to me.

[David Lesher]

Because that's one of the long-standing standards of Usenet,
just like the References, Message-ID, and all the other
conventions we follow.

See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signature_block>



--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Michael Moroney]

It is a Usenet convention that a line consisting only of "-- " indicates
the start of a signature block rather than the text of the message itself.

I don't know offhand whether this is actually in an RFC or if it's
simply an informal (but well-followed) convention.

Newsreaders use this info to strip signatures when you compose a followup
or grayed when displaying it (implicitly highlighting the actual text of
a message) and most newsreaders that automatically append a signature
do so with this special line.

[Steven M. O'Neill]

David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote:
>Philip Nasadowski <nasa...@usermale.com> writes:
>
>>In article <k7cnch$kv9$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> Stephen Sprunk <ste...@sprunk.org> wrote:
>
>>> So, please edit your signature to begin with "-- " rather than "---".
>
>>What the fuck does it matter?
>
>Because that's one of the long-standing standards of Usenet,

What's this "Usenet" crap? I thought this was Google Groups.

--
Steven O'Neill ste...@panix.com
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo

[Adam H. Kerman]

Michael Moroney <mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com> wrote:
>Philip Nasadowski <nasa...@usermale.com> writes:

>>Stephen Sprunk <ste...@sprunk.org> wrote:

>>>So, please edit your signature to begin with "-- " rather than "---".

>>What the fuck does it matter?

>It is a Usenet convention that a line consisting only of "-- " indicates
>the start of a signature block rather than the text of the message itself.

>I don't know offhand whether this is actually in an RFC or if it's
>simply an informal (but well-followed) convention.

You're correct. It's a long-standing convention, now mentioned in RFC 3676
Text/Plain Format, which doesn't require its use by the user but does
require special handling in Format=Flowed and requires that paragraphs that
aren't delimiters not end with that pattern.

The delimiter is a single line, only. There isn't supposed to be a blank
line ahead of it, although some people do that for readability. If there's
a blank line after, that's actually part of the signature block.

[Jonathan J. Baker]

In <> mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes:

>"conklin" <nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:
>>"David Lesher" <wb8...@panix.com> wrote in message
>>> "conklin" <nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:

>>>>What surprised me is that NYC's water supply seems to have
>>>>been cut off in places. It is gravity feed, so why has it
>>>>failed? Is it only tall buildings which require pumps?

>>> As I recall, 5 stories is the head available from
>>> upstate. That's why the building code allows 5 but not 6 story
>>> walkups. If you need a water boost pump, you also need an
>>> elevator.

>>I thought it was 6, at least in the buidling I grew up in.

>Maybe it depends on whether the building is on a bit of a hill? One on
>top of a hill may need a pump over 5 storeys but at the bottom it doesn't
>need one for 6 or more.

Maybe not. My parents are on the 6th floor of a 16-storey building, Upper
West Side. When the tank is closed for cleaning/repair, or when power is
shut off, they get some cold water.

My clarinet teacher Mr Irving Neidich ob"m lived in Washington Heights,
where almost all the apartment buildings were 6 stories, without water
tanks. Surely Ft Wash Ave and 175th is a higher elevation than West End
Ave and 75th?

--
name: jon baker web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
address: jjb...@panix.com blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com
--
--
name: jon baker web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
address: jjb...@panix.com blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

[Phil Kane]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 22:17:21 -0600, Stephen Sprunk
<ste...@sprunk.org> wrote:

>So, please edit your signature to begin with "-- " rather than "---".

Why do I need a separator anyhow? Messages that I get with the
"two-dash" separator grey-out the signature when read with
Thunderbird. I checked the "custom default" settings and yes, I do
remember that I put a "three-dash" separator in as part of the
signature purposely to avoid this.

OK I'll "fix" it - I'll eliminate all the dashes entirely. Don't want
to annoy you unnecessarily. I'll find better reasons to do that.

Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR

[Phil Kane]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 23:59:11 -0600, Stephen Sprunk
<ste...@sprunk.org> wrote:

>> What the fuck does it matter?
>
>Any decent newsreader will automatically remove properly marked
>signatures when you reply--as I suspect yours did when you replied to me.

So does my proper use of the "Mark Block" option and/or the backspace
and delete keys as appropriate. I don't do the "automaton" exercise
of just hitting the "Reply" key without marking the portion(s) that I
want to quote in the reply.

In formal message traffic the sig does not count in the word count
anyhow.

Phil Kane
Beaverton, OR

[Glen Labah]

In article <nasadowsk-59479...@news.optonline.net>,

Philip Nasadowski <nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:

> What the fuck does it matter?

Finally, out of post apocalyptic New York, we hear the lone voice of a
long-lost surviving Philip N., who gives us the insight of a local into
the post-Sandy situation.

As only someone from the New York region could do.

[Glen Labah]

In article <k7d0p5$iu2$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

David Lesher <wb8...@panix.com> wrote:

> Because that's one of the long-standing standards of Usenet,
> just like the References, Message-ID, and all the other
> conventions we follow.
>
> See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signature_block>

It's a long standing convention, but not quite as long as some of the
Usenet conventions. I can remember all manner of ASCII graphics being
down there into the early 1990s. References, Message-ID, etc. were
pretty well established by then.

[Glen Labah]

In article <k7dvp6$6vc$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

ste...@panix.com (Steven M. O'Neill) wrote:

> What's this "Usenet" crap? I thought this was Google Groups.

I don't know about nyc.transit but what is now
misc.transport.rail.americas started with a reformation of the usenet
groups in the mid-1990s, when it was decided that rec.railroad should no
longer exist, but instead should be separated into a model railroad
group and a prototype railroad discussion group.

I would imagine that nyc.transit has existed far longer than that.

So, at the best, misc.transport.rail.americas predates Google groups by
5 to 6 years or so. They purchased Deja.com's usenet archive and
interface, which was the start of Google Groups in 2001.

http://www.google.com/about/company/history/

[Adam H. Kerman]

Uh, why don't you want your newsreader to parse for .sigfiles when you're
reading an article and then following up to it?

Generally, I refuse to use .sigfiles. It's a kludge, left over from days
in which articles and message were passed across and fed into different
networks. Basic header information could be lost, like the author's name
and organization, so the .sigfile was used to put that information into
the body of the article so it wouldn't get lost. My Usenet and email
participation doesn't go back to those days so there was no reason
to use .sigfiles ever. If someone reading my article wants to know my
name, he can look at the From header.

[conklin]

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message
news:k7f8uv$hom$1...@news.albasani.net...

Back when we had shell acess, the .sig would work automatically. I never
thought of a dashes.

[Steven M. O'Neill]

Glen Labah <gl4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I would imagine that nyc.transit has existed far longer than that.

This link claims to show a cut and paste of the original
control message:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/nyc.transit/7gsslkl92CU/i7_5HNO-JyYJ

Control: newgroup nyc.transit
Date: 14 Dec 1994 22:46:38 GMT

Also, here's the Charter, for those who may be interested.

nyc.transit is intended to provide a place for people in New
York City and the metropolitan area to discuss transportation
issues related to the region, including postings about the New
York City subway and roadway systems.

[Stephen Sprunk]

On 08-Nov-12 04:10, conklin wrote:
> Back when we had shell acess, the .sig would work automatically. I never
> thought of a dashes.

At least in the old days, all UNIXish newsreaders used "inews" to post
new articles, and inews inserted the separator itself before appending
your .signature file, so it all Just Worked(tm).

[Adam H. Kerman]

Glen Labah <gl4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>ste...@panix.com (Steven M. O'Neill) wrote:

>>What's this "Usenet" crap? I thought this was Google Groups.

>I don't know about nyc.transit but what is now
>misc.transport.rail.americas started with a reformation of the usenet
>groups in the mid-1990s, when it was decided that rec.railroad should no
>longer exist, but instead should be separated into a model railroad
>group and a prototype railroad discussion group.

There was a lengthy period in the early to mid-90's in which tale, the
hierarchies manager, was big into reorganization. Rmgrouping rec.railroad
was one of the more controversial ones he did. It began with a desire
to split out discussion of railroads in Europe, so instead of doing that,
only, they started several new groups to replace the original. The
utterly unjustified one was the redundant newsgroup for Australian
railroading.

[Adam H. Kerman]

conklin <nilkn...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Back when we had shell acess, the .sig would work automatically. I never
>thought of a dashes.

It's specific to the newsreader. Some newsreaders create a delimiter.
Others would require the delimiter be the first line of the .sigfile.

I still use a Unix shell. How do people not use a Unix shell?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Nov 8, 11:31 am, ste...@panix.com (Steven M. O'Neill) wrote:
> Glen Labah  <gl4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >I would imagine that nyc.transit has existed far longer than that.
>
> This link claims to show a cut and paste of the original
> control message:
>

> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/nyc.transit/7gsslkl...

>
>     Control: newgroup nyc.transit
>     Date: 14 Dec 1994 22:46:38 GMT
>
> Also, here's the Charter, for those who may be interested.
>
>     nyc.transit is intended to provide a place for people in New
>     York City and the metropolitan area to discuss transportation
>     issues related to the region, including postings about the New
>     York City subway and roadway systems.

So the myriad crossposts from the national group would seem to be
inappropriate.

[Adam H. Kerman]

An unmoderated newsgroup's charter does not control topicality. Instead,
it's the proponent's vision for what he wants and what he hopes will be
discussed in future. It's not possible to predict.

[Richard Webb]

On Wed 2012-Nov-07 15:46, ste...@panix.com writes:

> What's this "Usenet" crap? I thought this was Google Groups.

I hope you're being facetious and not sarcastic, but just in case you're for
real ...

Google groups gets most of their content from usenet, which
was there long before google.
You might be reading "google groups' but you're actually
reading and participating in usenet. SOmehow I think you
knew that though ,grin>.



Regards,
Richard
... Love is being owned by a rottweiler!
---
* Origin: (1:116/901)
--- Synchronet 3.15a-Linux NewsLink 1.92-mlp
Capitol City Online - telnet://cco.ath.cx - 502-875-8938

[conklin]

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message

news:k7gr81$dp8$2...@news.albasani.net...

I liked the vi editor, for one. But today I don't know any provider which
allows you to use Unix shell. Or do you have unix as an operating system?

[danny burstein]

In <XdCdnZUaePO49wHN...@earthlink.com> "conklin" <nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:

>> I still use a Unix shell. How do people not use a Unix shell?

>I liked the vi editor, for one. But today I don't know any provider which
>allows you to use Unix shell. Or do you have unix as an operating system?

With the disclosure that I worked there, panix.com, a NYC based
ISP (and one of the first publicly accessable internet nodes)
has, had, and will forever offer unix shells.

danny "composing this with nn" burstein

--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

[Miles Bader]

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> writes:
>>So the myriad crossposts from the national group would seem to be
>>inappropriate.
>
> An unmoderated newsgroup's charter does not control topicality. Instead,
> it's the proponent's vision for what he wants and what he hopes will be
> discussed in future. It's not possible to predict.

Though in some cases the sheer volume of whiny references to the
charter from the resident pedants in response to "off-topic" posts
does tend to act as a bit of a damper ... (I'm looking at you uk.*...)

-miles

--
.Numeric stability is probably not all that important when you're guessing.

[Steven M. O'Neill]

Try http://www.vim.org/download.php for Gvim for Windows.

-smo (runs vim under cygwin when forced to use Windows)

[Steven M. O'Neill]

danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>In <XdCdnZUaePO49wHN...@earthlink.com> "conklin" <nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>>> I still use a Unix shell. How do people not use a Unix shell?
>
>>I liked the vi editor, for one. But today I don't know any provider which
>>allows you to use Unix shell. Or do you have unix as an operating system?
>
>With the disclosure that I worked there, panix.com, a NYC based
>ISP (and one of the first publicly accessable internet nodes)
>has, had, and will forever offer unix shells.

Surely there are still others...?

[Glen Labah]

In article <k7hsoi$sd$2...@reader1.panix.com>,

ste...@panix.com (Steven M. O'Neill) wrote:

> danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
> >In <XdCdnZUaePO49wHN...@earthlink.com> "conklin"
> ><nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:
> >
> >>> I still use a Unix shell. How do people not use a Unix shell?
> >
> >>I liked the vi editor, for one. But today I don't know any provider which
> >>allows you to use Unix shell. Or do you have unix as an operating system?
> >
> >With the disclosure that I worked there, panix.com, a NYC based
> >ISP (and one of the first publicly accessable internet nodes)
> >has, had, and will forever offer unix shells.
>
> Surely there are still others...?

There's a few in my area, which isn't New York City, so it doesn't count
for the newsgroup set this thread is posted to.

[John Levine]

>I liked the vi editor, for one. But today I don't know any provider which
>allows you to use Unix shell. Or do you have unix as an operating system?

Works just dandy on my laptop. FreeBSD, specifically.

I'm reading this group with trn, as God intended.



--
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

[Adam H. Kerman]

conklin <nilkn...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>conklin <nilkn...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>>>Back when we had shell acess, the .sig would work automatically. I never
>>>thought of a dashes.

>>It's specific to the newsreader. Some newsreaders create a delimiter.
>>Others would require the delimiter be the first line of the .sigfile.

>>I still use a Unix shell. How do people not use a Unix shell?

>I liked the vi editor, for one. But today I don't know any provider which
>allows you to use Unix shell. Or do you have unix as an operating system?

I've been using vim since that became available. Same vi commands, with
a few additional convenient features.

I didn't have an ISP till a few years ago. I was dialing up to a shell
on a public access Unix network with Internet access through that. The Web
looked like whatever a character cell browser could pull up. I use the
successor to that network for email and the shell.

Yeah, I also run Linux on machines at home. And I use an XP machine.

[Adam H. Kerman]

John Levine <jo...@iecc.com> wrote:

>>I liked the vi editor, for one. But today I don't know any provider which
>>allows you to use Unix shell. Or do you have unix as an operating system?

>Works just dandy on my laptop. FreeBSD, specifically.

>I'm reading this group with trn, as God intended.

Heh

[Adam H. Kerman]

Steven M. O'Neill <ste...@panix.com> wrote:
>danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

>>"conklin" <nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:

>>>>I still use a Unix shell. How do people not use a Unix shell?

>>>I liked the vi editor, for one. But today I don't know any provider which
>>>allows you to use Unix shell. Or do you have unix as an operating system?

>>With the disclosure that I worked there, panix.com, a NYC based
>>ISP (and one of the first publicly accessable internet nodes)
>>has, had, and will forever offer unix shells.

>Surely there are still others...?

The last (also one of the earliest) ISPs in my town offered dialup and
ISDN till earlier this year. They never offered DSL as it wasn't possible
to compete with the phone company. They still offer shell acounts, but
I suppose they're no longer an ISP.

In dialup days, there was a choice of a good 25 or so. The area's largest
dialup was bought up by an ISP from elsewhere trying to go national, but
they no longer exist.

There are a handful of national dialup providers, I think. You still have
netzero (no longer free) and earthlink.

I remember the companies that provided massive computer networks that
weren't really part of the Internet till the end, like Compuserve. Compuserve
let me send telexes to Europe and Japan in the days before email was
ubiquitous.

[conklin]

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message

news:k7i3hj$6nt$3...@news.albasani.net...

TRN--I had almost forgotten about a threaded news reader!!!

[conklin]

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote in message
news:k7i3ac$6nt$2...@news.albasani.net...

I have a dual boot, xp and Widows 7 pro. But I put away the DOS machine and
use it for Xmas card lists, and the Windows 98 machine for several programs.
And in theory my account with Earthlink is still dialup, but I keep it all
going for the e-mail and of course my main domain, with two shortcut domains
just to link to it faster.

[Robert Heller]

At Fri, 9 Nov 2012 05:30:42 +0000 (UTC) "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

>
> Steven M. O'Neill <ste...@panix.com> wrote:
> >danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
> >>"conklin" <nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> >>>>I still use a Unix shell. How do people not use a Unix shell?
>
> >>>I liked the vi editor, for one. But today I don't know any provider which
> >>>allows you to use Unix shell. Or do you have unix as an operating system?
>
> >>With the disclosure that I worked there, panix.com, a NYC based
> >>ISP (and one of the first publicly accessable internet nodes)
> >>has, had, and will forever offer unix shells.
>
> >Surely there are still others...?
>
> The last (also one of the earliest) ISPs in my town offered dialup and
> ISDN till earlier this year. They never offered DSL as it wasn't possible
> to compete with the phone company. They still offer shell acounts, but
> I suppose they're no longer an ISP.
>
> In dialup days, there was a choice of a good 25 or so. The area's largest
> dialup was bought up by an ISP from elsewhere trying to go national, but
> they no longer exist.
>
> There are a handful of national dialup providers, I think. You still have
> netzero (no longer free) and earthlink.

Localnet still provides dialup. Locally (Western Mass) Crocker offers
dialup. For most of Western Mass dialup is the *old* way to connect to
the Internet -- yes, there are whole towns here with no DSL or Cable.
Satelite is also not available for some (trees and/or hills in the way,
ditto for cell-based Internet).

I believe AOL still exists and offers dialup, but I no longer get AOL
signup coasters (I don't and never did run either mess-windows or
MacOSX on my home / office computers, so AOL was never an option for
me). I know of at least one person locally with an AOL E-Mail address
that I know is on dialup.

>
> I remember the companies that provided massive computer networks that
> weren't really part of the Internet till the end, like Compuserve. Compuserve
> let me send telexes to Europe and Japan in the days before email was
> ubiquitous.
>

--
Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933 / hel...@deepsoft.com
Deepwoods Software -- http://www.deepsoft.com/
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

[danny burstein]

In <esSdna9M49mDbQHN...@giganews.com> Robert Heller <hel...@deepsoft.com> writes:
>> In dialup days, there was a choice of a good 25 or so. The area's largest
>> dialup was bought up by an ISP from elsewhere trying to go national, but
>> they no longer exist.
>>
>> There are a handful of national dialup providers, I think. You still have
>> netzero (no longer free) and earthlink.

>Localnet still provides dialup. Locally (Western Mass) Crocker offers
>dialup. For most of Western Mass dialup is the *old* way to connect to
>the Internet -- yes, there are whole towns here with no DSL or Cable.

Just about all, maybe all... ISPs that offer dialup service
no longer have their own telephone connections [a] but instead
contract with one of the half dozen or so "backbone/wholesale"
folk who've set up their own networks.

This is semi transparent, so, for example, you _can_ use
my aforementioned panix.com, which is physically based
in NYC, via a dial up modem in a hefty chunk of the US
(and, to a limited extent, elsewhere). Including, in the
case of panix, usenet shell.

- which, btw, lets you use a "dumb terminal" with modem.

[a] modulo a small amount of dial up lines that are
local and directly reach their offices, thus
bypassing the third party.

[Steven M. O'Neill]

Glen Labah <gl4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In article <k7hsoi$sd$2...@reader1.panix.com>,
> ste...@panix.com (Steven M. O'Neill) wrote:
>
>> danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >In <XdCdnZUaePO49wHN...@earthlink.com> "conklin"
>> ><nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:
>> >
>> >>> I still use a Unix shell. How do people not use a Unix shell?
>> >
>> >>I liked the vi editor, for one. But today I don't know any provider which
>> >>allows you to use Unix shell. Or do you have unix as an operating system?
>> >
>> >With the disclosure that I worked there, panix.com, a NYC based
>> >ISP (and one of the first publicly accessable internet nodes)
>> >has, had, and will forever offer unix shells.
>>
>> Surely there are still others...?
>
>There's a few in my area, which isn't New York City, so it doesn't count
>for the newsgroup set this thread is posted to.

Everything's in NYC when you've got an Internet.

[Steven M. O'Neill]

danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>Just about all, maybe all... ISPs that offer dialup service
>no longer have their own telephone connections [a] but instead
>contract with one of the half dozen or so "backbone/wholesale"
>folk who've set up their own networks.
>
>This is semi transparent, so, for example, you _can_ use
>my aforementioned panix.com, which is physically based
>in NYC, via a dial up modem in a hefty chunk of the US
>(and, to a limited extent, elsewhere). Including, in the
>case of panix, usenet shell.

I'm guessing Panix doesn't have so many dialup customers these
days. Most people seem to come in via ssh.

-smo (was a dialup panix customer in 1995)

[Adam H. Kerman]

Steven M. O'Neill <ste...@panix.com> wrote:

>danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

>>Just about all, maybe all... ISPs that offer dialup service
>>no longer have their own telephone connections [a] but instead
>>contract with one of the half dozen or so "backbone/wholesale"
>>folk who've set up their own networks.

>>This is semi transparent, so, for example, you _can_ use
>>my aforementioned panix.com, which is physically based
>>in NYC, via a dial up modem in a hefty chunk of the US
>>(and, to a limited extent, elsewhere). Including, in the
>>case of panix, usenet shell.

>I'm guessing Panix doesn't have so many dialup customers these
>days. Most people seem to come in via ssh.

>-smo (was a dialup panix customer in 1995)

So you're using somebody else as ISP. I'm using the term to mean the
first public network you subscribe to that provides you with data access
to other networks.

[Adam H. Kerman]

conklin <nilkn...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>John Levine <jo...@iecc.com> wrote:

>>>>I liked the vi editor, for one. But today I don't know any provider
>>>>which allows you to use Unix shell. Or do you have unix as an
>>>>operating system?

>>>Works just dandy on my laptop. FreeBSD, specifically.

>>>I'm reading this group with trn, as God intended.

>>Heh

>TRN--I had almost forgotten about a threaded news reader!!!

I don't see how people read News before threading.

[David Lesher]

ste...@panix.com (Steven M. O'Neill) writes:

>danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In <XdCdnZUaePO49wHN...@earthlink.com> "conklin" <nilkn...@earthlink.net> writes:
>>
>>>> I still use a Unix shell. How do people not use a Unix shell?
>>
>>>I liked the vi editor, for one. But today I don't know any provider which
>>>allows you to use Unix shell. Or do you have unix as an operating system?
>>
>>With the disclosure that I worked there, panix.com, a NYC based
>>ISP (and one of the first publicly accessable internet nodes)
>>has, had, and will forever offer unix shells.

>Surely there are still others...?

Sure!! Panix has bash, csh, ksh....
Oh readers? nn, trn, and even rn....


--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433