CharlieCards v.v. Oyster (and Octopus?)

[SB]

This from Boston. The CharlieCard is an Oyster-type pre-paid cardcard
used in Boston. Ditto Octopus in HKG.

Subject: Expiring CharlieCards causing confusion and frustration

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/01/01/expiring-charliecards-causing-confusion-and-frustration/aCFuYJF2erbu5072enGKFI/story.html?s_campaign=8315

For frequent riders, the expiration proves largely invisible: Their
cards
get an automatic software upgrade, and two-year extension, when
swiped. But
irregular riders may find themselves suddenly unable to use their
plastic
CharlieCard. ..

A few weeks ago, reader Irene Gruenfeld of Sudbury and her husband
took
their 5-year-old twins on a stroll through the city with a promise of
a Red
Line ride from Charles/MGH back to their car in South Boston. They had
more
than $10 on each of their cards, but the station gates failed to open,
displaying an "expired'' message. The vending machines presented
similarly
cryptic information. No staff was present, forcing them to buy the
paper
CharlieTickets spit out by the machine, which cost 30 cents more per
ride.

When the CharlieCard was introduced, five years was the industry
standard
for the still-emerging smartcard technology. Manufacturers at the time
recommended a programmed "sunset date'' to stave off problems that
might
arise from frequently used cards nearing the end of their useful life,
he
said. As it became clear the cards could last longer, more recently
issued
CharlieCards have been given sunset dates of 10 years. Most of the 6
million
issued have the longer lifespan, he said.

[Roland Perry]

In message
<29d37e6b-9851-468d...@z12g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, at
03:21:18 on Tue, 3 Jan 2012, SB <s_bye...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:

Quite a few of Nottingham's "Cityrider" bus smartcards unexpectedly
stopped working on 1st Jan 2010 (not noticed until 2nd Jan as there was
no bus service on the 1st). Once alerted to this, they issued people
with new cards and transferred the credit while allowing passengers who
had a broken card to travel for free (this seems an important aspect!)
--
Roland Perry

[Arthur Figgis]

On 03/01/2012 11:21, SB wrote:

> http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/01/01/expiring-charliecards-causing-confusion-and-frustration/aCFuYJF2erbu5072enGKFI/story.html?s_campaign=8315

> Line ride from Charles/MGH back to their car in South Boston. They had
> more
> than $10 on each of their cards, but the station gates failed to open,
> displaying an "expired'' message.

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to trap people /inside/ the Boston metro
system...?


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Jan 3, 1:31 pm, Arthur Figgis <afig...@example.com.invalid> wrote:

> Wouldn't it be more appropriate to trap people /inside/ the Boston metro
> system...?

That's why they're called "Charlie" cards, the man who never returned.

[srfu...@googlemail.com]

On Jan 3, 11:21 am, SB <s_byers...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> This from Boston. The CharlieCard is an Oyster-type pre-paid cardcard
> used in Boston. Ditto Octopus in HKG.
>
> Subject: Expiring CharlieCards causing confusion and frustration
>

> http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/01/01/expiring-charliecards-cau...

I've had an Oyster card since May 2004, and it still works. I've
heard of new cards being issued due to some improved security feature,
but when I bought a new annual bus pass last month it was still issued
on the original card. Miss-reads are rare, maybe one or two per
month.

I also have a PATH Smartlink card. When I'm over there I can carry
both cards in the same wallet and the PATH readers read their card and
ignore the Oyster one. However, The Oyster readers will never read
their card if there's a Smartlink card anywhere near it. With this
particular combination of cards it's not really a problem since only
rarely would anybody use both cards on the same day, but with similar
cards being introduced for various purposes it could become a problem
in future. It really shouldn't be a problem to have readers ignore
'foreign' cards, after all, the PATH ones manage to do it.

Mhat are the MTA doing about smartcard ticketing on the Subway and
buses? There was a trial at a few stations when I was there a few
years ago, but that was Subway only, at a time when PATH had started
accepting both Metrocards and Smartlink cards. I would hope that
eventually a card will be introduced that's valid on almost everything
in the area, maybe even for bridge and tunnel tolls.

[Roland Perry]

In message
<7de93cd9-f071-46e6...@w4g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>, at
05:14:39 on Thu, 19 Jan 2012, srfu...@googlemail.com remarked:

>I also have a PATH Smartlink card. When I'm over there I can carry
>both cards in the same wallet and the PATH readers read their card and
>ignore the Oyster one. However, The Oyster readers will never read
>their card if there's a Smartlink card anywhere near it. With this
>particular combination of cards it's not really a problem since only
>rarely would anybody use both cards on the same day, but with similar
>cards being introduced for various purposes it could become a problem
>in future. It really shouldn't be a problem to have readers ignore
>'foreign' cards, after all, the PATH ones manage to do it.

The Oyster system seems supersensitive to multiple cards being presented
- it didn't work if in the same wallet as a door-entry "card" (actually
more of a thick card-sized token).

It's interesting how few of these have photos on (something that's
extremely common on card-based ID badges for conference that I go to).
--
Roland Perry

[bolta...@boltar.world]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:53:57 +0000
Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>The Oyster system seems supersensitive to multiple cards being presented
>- it didn't work if in the same wallet as a door-entry "card" (actually
>more of a thick card-sized token).

I've had the occasionally issue with a company security pass but not often.
It probably depends on what radio frequency the other card uses. If its the
same one as oyster then I suspect there'll be problems.

B2003

[houn...@yahoo.co.uk]

I doubt that a Smart Card would be used for bridge and tunnel tolls as
most cars in the greater New York area are equipped with special
transponders that toll gates read. They can also be used on other road
agencies' territories -- even in Ontario, in Canada.

Who knows, though?

[Michael Finfer]

On 1/19/2012 5:34 PM, houn...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
aybe even for bridge and tunnel tolls.
>
> I doubt that a Smart Card would be used for bridge and tunnel tolls as
> most cars in the greater New York area are equipped with special
> transponders that toll gates read. They can also be used on other road
> agencies' territories -- even in Ontario, in Canada.
>
> Who knows, though?

It's the same technology, RFID, but tapping a smart card at a toll booth
defeats the big advantage that electronic tolling systems have: no need
to stop and open your window.

I'm not sure why any agency would go the smart card route for tolls.

Michael Finfer
Bridgewater, NJ

[John Levine]

>> Mhat are the MTA doing about smartcard ticketing on the Subway and
>> buses?

As far as I know, they're still scratching their heads. These days
the options seem to be to issue their own smartcard, like PATH did
with Smartlink, or else piggyback on contactless EMV credit cards
(Visa Paywave, Mastercard Paypass, Amex Express Pay) as SEPTA is
doing. Metrocards are already accepted by multiple different
operating authorities (MTA in NYC, Beeline in Westchester, NICE in
Nassau County, and PATH) so I hope that any new smartcard won't work
any worse.

>> in the area, maybe even for bridge and tunnel tolls.
>
>I doubt that a Smart Card would be used for bridge and tunnel tolls as
>most cars in the greater New York area are equipped with special
>transponders that toll gates read. They can also be used on other road
>agencies' territories -- even in Ontario, in Canada.

Fare payment cards are intended to be read from a few inches away when
they're nearly stationary. E-ZPass transponders can be read from many
feet away when a vehicle is moving at 60 MPH. They're quite different
applications.

By the way, the only place outside the US that E-ZPass works is on the
Peace bridge across the Niagara river, where the toll booths happen to
be on the Canadian side. In Toronto, the 407 toll road uses the same
technology as E-ZPass but for some reason does not interoperate with it.

R's,
John

[dt...@my-deja.com]

On Jan 3, 6:31 pm, Arthur Figgis <afig...@example.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 03/01/2012 11:21, SB wrote:
>

> >http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/01/01/expiring-charliecards-cau...

> > Line ride from Charles/MGH back to their car in South Boston. They had
> > more
> > than $10 on each of their cards, but the station gates failed to open,
> > displaying an "expired'' message.
>
> Wouldn't it be more appropriate to trap people /inside/ the Boston metro
> system...?
>
> --
> Arthur Figgis                 Surrey, UK

Charlie doesn't work that way IIRC - it's only read on entry. To get
out there's an uncontrolled turnstile type thingie

[Roland Perry]

In message <4f18b54b$0$1990$607e...@cv.net>, at 19:29:03 on Thu, 19 Jan
2012, Michael Finfer <fin...@optonline.net> remarked:

>> I doubt that a Smart Card would be used for bridge and tunnel tolls as
>> most cars in the greater New York area are equipped with special
>> transponders that toll gates read. They can also be used on other road
>> agencies' territories -- even in Ontario, in Canada.
>>
>> Who knows, though?
>
>It's the same technology, RFID, but tapping a smart card at a toll
>booth defeats the big advantage that electronic tolling systems have:
>no need to stop and open your window.
>
>I'm not sure why any agency would go the smart card route for tolls.

Instead of cash, for non-regular users. There's a toll bridge/tunnel at
the Thames Estuary, for example, and while they have a transponder
scheme my usage of the crossing when I lived nearby was only perhaps
once a year. A contactless credit card seems a better bet than adding
interoperability to any particular transport smart card though.
--
Roland Perry

[Arthur Figgis]

Even if they put the fare up while you are travelling?

[Adam H. Kerman]

dt...@my-deja.com wrote:
>On Jan 3, 6:31 pm, Arthur Figgis <afig...@example.com.invalid> wrote:
>>On 03/01/2012 11:21, SB wrote:

>>>http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/01/01/expiring-charliecards-cau...
>>>Line ride from Charles/MGH back to their car in South Boston. They had
>>>more than $10 on each of their cards, but the station gates failed to
>>>open, displaying an "expired'' message.

>>Wouldn't it be more appropriate to trap people /inside/ the Boston metro
>>system...?

>Charlie doesn't work that way IIRC - it's only read on entry. To get
>out there's an uncontrolled turnstile type thingie

Oooooohhhhh

http://www.mit.edu/~jdreed/t/charlie.html

[John Levine]

>>I'm not sure why any agency would go the smart card route for tolls.
>
>Instead of cash, for non-regular users. There's a toll bridge/tunnel at
>the Thames Estuary, for example, and while they have a transponder
>scheme my usage of the crossing when I lived nearby was only perhaps
>once a year. A contactless credit card seems a better bet than adding
>interoperability to any particular transport smart card though.

We already have interoperable toll transponders with E-ZPass. There
are 22 different road and bridge authorities that accept each other's
passes, and some other odds and ends like airport parking. Even if
the MTA goes to a smartcard for transit I would be astonished if they
accepted it for tolls. The Port Authority already has a smartcard for
their PATH transit, and I've never heard anyone suggest using it on
their six toll crossings.

I gather that the vast majority of toll trips in New York use E-ZPass
already, since the passes are issued free if linked to a credit or
debit card, the toll discounts are significant, and there's no charge
for us occasional users when we don't use it. The incremental benefit
of taking Smartlink or whatever for the fraction of drivers that live
in the region but don't have E-ZPass would be pretty minimal.

R's,
John

[Roland Perry]

In message <jfcbut$nnf$1...@leila.iecc.com>, at 18:31:57 on Fri, 20 Jan
2012, John Levine <jo...@iecc.com> remarked:

>>>I'm not sure why any agency would go the smart card route for tolls.
>>
>>Instead of cash, for non-regular users. There's a toll bridge/tunnel at
>>the Thames Estuary, for example, and while they have a transponder
>>scheme my usage of the crossing when I lived nearby was only perhaps
>>once a year. A contactless credit card seems a better bet than adding
>>interoperability to any particular transport smart card though.
>
>We already have interoperable toll transponders with E-ZPass.

Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the
London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder).

I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA.
--
Roland Perry

[Adam H. Kerman]

I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely
with photographs of license plates?

[Roland Perry]

In message <jfcl4l$d74$1...@news.albasani.net>, at 21:08:37 on Fri, 20 Jan
2012, Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> remarked:

>>Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the
>>London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder).
>
>>I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA.
>
>I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely
>with photographs of license plates?

Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates
(I don't think cars without transponders are impaled on spikes).

There's also some enforcement by foot patrols, although I've never been
sure how widespread they are. That's because you have to pay by the day
once inside, which can't be enforced solely by entry cameras on the
periphery.
--
Roland Perry

[houn...@yahoo.co.uk]

I also tend to believe that toll booths will be dismantled and that
cars will be able to travel at normal speeds on a motorway while readers
mounted on a frame over it will simply read the transponders.

I saw that once on the New Jersey Turnpike.

For those cars that are either from out of town or lacking a
transponder, they will have cameras with license plate recognition
software.

[houn...@yahoo.co.uk]

Yes, the London congestion charging uses cameras with licence-plate
recognition software.

[houn...@yahoo.co.uk]

Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the
way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of
transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.

[Roland Perry]

In message <AalSq.1109$fZ7...@newsfe09.ams2>, at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20
Jan 2012, "houn...@yahoo.co.uk" <houn...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:

>> By the way, the only place outside the US that E-ZPass works is on the
>> Peace bridge across the Niagara river, where the toll booths happen to
>> be on the Canadian side. In Toronto, the 407 toll road uses the same
>> technology as E-ZPass but for some reason does not interoperate with it.
>

>Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the
>way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
>operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of
>transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.

That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a
dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to
numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem.
Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge
from Tower Bridge to Windsor.
--
Roland Perry

[John Levine]

>I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA.

Well, yes, and the distances are considerably greater, too. The
distance from New York to Niagara Falls, within New York state, is
about the same as London to Glasgow.

R's,
John

PS: Fun Fact: the James Bay municipality in Quebec is the same size as England.

[Peter Masson]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:UjlMawSj...@perry.co.uk...

> In message <AalSq.1109$fZ7...@newsfe09.ams2>, at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20 Jan
> 2012, "houn...@yahoo.co.uk" <houn...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>

>>Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way
>>they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
>>operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of
>>transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.
>
> That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a
> dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to
> numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem.
> Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from
> Tower Bridge to Windsor.

Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value
purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is
used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation.

Peter

[John Levine]

>I also tend to believe that toll booths will be dismantled and that
>cars will be able to travel at normal speeds on a motorway while readers
>mounted on a frame over it will simply read the transponders.
>
>I saw that once on the New Jersey Turnpike.

Garden State Parkway, actually.

>For those cars that are either from out of town or lacking a
>transponder, they will have cameras with license plate recognition
>software.

That's how the Sunpass tolls in Florida, the 407 in Toronto, and the
A25 bridge in Montreal work. They don't take cash. I hear that
people from Vermont can travel on the 407 for free, because VT won't
provide plate info. Dunno about A25 and Sunpass.

R's,
John

[John Levine]

>>>> Mhat are the MTA doing about smartcard ticketing on the Subway and

>>>> buses? ...

>Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the
>way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
>operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of
>transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.

The MTA's Metrocard already works on four agencies' transit, MTA,
PATH, NICE, and Beeline. The MTA runs Metro-North and the LIRR so I
presume whatever they come up with will work on them, too. I presume
Metrocard doesn't work on Metro-North and LIRR because the current
system can't handle fares that vary by distance, but you can buy a
physical ticket which is Metro-North on one side and Metrocard on the
back.

The main question is NJ Transit. They already cooperate with the MTA
on the west of Hudson Metro-North trains, which are extensions of NJ
commuter lines, but they don't do joint fares with PATH even though it
would make a lot of sense for the many commuters who transfer between
the two at Hoboken and Newark.

R's,
John

[John Levine]

>That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a
>dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to
>numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem.
>Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge
>from Tower Bridge to Windsor.

Actually, E-ZPass has solved that remarkably well, with 22 different
authorities accepting each other's passes.

They did trials using it to pay at McDonalds' drive-through on Long Island,
but nothing came of it. Since you have to stop to pick up the order anyway,
tapping a credit card doesn't slow the process down much.

R's,
John

[Charles Ellson]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:52:37 +0000, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

Lots of cameras at the boundary points providing images for ANPR
(Automatic Number Plate Recognition) processing. The system does not
require advance payment but works by determining if a vehicle is
exempt from charging or if the charge has been paid; failing that test
generates a (normal price) charge which the driver/keeper has until
midnight to pay after which there is a further 24hrs to pay an
increased (12 UKP instead of 10 UKP) charge. After that it becomes a
60 UKP Penalty Charge which increases to 120 UKP after T+14. At T+28 a
Charge Certificate is issued which increases the charge to 187 UKP. At
T+49 a Warrant of Execution can be applied for and "the boys"
(bailffs) get sent round to execute recovery of payment or goods not
just for the amount due but for their own fees on top.

[houn...@yahoo.co.uk]

I wasn't talking about bridges, I was referring to transport. I wonder
why there isn't one Smart Card for the greater New York area, similar to
what we have here in London.

[John Levine]

>I wasn't talking about bridges, I was referring to transport. I wonder
>why there isn't one Smart Card for the greater New York area, similar to
>what we have here in London.

As I've noted before, Metrocard is accepted by four agencies, five if
you count PATH and the JFK Airtrain separately. Given that it appears
to be technically limited to a fixed fare per swipe, that's all the
places where it makes sense.

A smartcard would presumably also work on Metro-North and LIRR, which
are also the MTA, with the remaining question being NJ Transit.

Since New Jersey is, in the words of B. Franklin, a keg tapped at both
ends, NJ Transit also has to consider interoperation with SEPTA and
PATCO which operate transit in the Philadephia area, even though
there's no need for New York and Philadelphia payments to interoperate
directly.

Extra bonus confusion: NJ Transit is experimenting with tap payment
using contactless credit cards on some bus lines. In Connecticut,
Metro-North runs commuter trains west of New Haven, the state runs
commuter trains east of New Haven, with joint fares, and also joint
fares with some CT Transit buses. On a few routes, Amtrak (the long
distance train agency) will accept local commuter tickets.

R's,
John

[Miles Bader]

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> writes:
> (I don't think cars without transponders are impaled on spikes).

It would block traffic. Can't have that!

-Miles

--
Is it true that nothing can be known? If so how do we know this? -Woody Allen

[Adam H. Kerman]

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>at 21:08:37 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> remarked:

>>>Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the
>>>London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder).

>>>I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA.

>>I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely
>>with photographs of license plates?

>Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates

No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as
the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders.

>(I don't think cars without transponders are impaled on spikes).

Hah! I like spikes to protect grade crossings.

>There's also some enforcement by foot patrols, although I've never been
>sure how widespread they are. That's because you have to pay by the day
>once inside, which can't be enforced solely by entry cameras on the
>periphery.

Thanks.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Peter Masson <peter....@privacy.com> wrote:
>"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>>at 21:39:44 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, <houn...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:

>>>Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the way
>>>they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
>>>operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes of
>>>transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.

>>That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a
>>dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to
>>numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem.
>>Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge from
>>Tower Bridge to Windsor.

>Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value
>purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is
>used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation.

Ah! I wondered about that. Yet, pay-by-cell phone doesn't. Weird.

[spsffan]

Anyone who accesses their bank account with a cell phone is an idiot who
deserves whatever they get.

Makes a feller want to get into the stealing business!

DAve

[Roland Perry]

In message <jfdl1m$t9k$2...@news.albasani.net>, at 06:13:10 on Sat, 21 Jan

2012, Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> remarked:

>>>I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely
>>>with photographs of license plates?
>
>>Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates
>
>No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as
>the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders.

We may have a problem with the word "enforce". While it's true that
transponders are the primary means of collecting [US highway] tolls,
supplemented in many cases by a cash-lane, what the cameras are doing is
enforcing a regime where people need a transponder (or to use the
cash-lane).

In the UK we talk about "Law Enforcement" to mean the way in which
people like the police ensure people obey the law by various means, but
primarily by the pursuit of offenders.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <hI2dnTzr_OY2dITS...@bt.com>, at 22:24:11 on
Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Peter Masson <peter....@privacy.com> remarked:

>>>Why can't they just introduce one single smart card for the area, the
>>>way they have in London? And there is compatibility between different
>>>operating agencies as Oystercards are accepted not only on TfL modes
>>>of transport, but also on National Rail in Greater London.
>>
>> That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and
>>half a dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies).
>>Scaling it to numerous authorities operating independent bridges
>>could be a problem. Imagine a different operator was charging tolls
>>for every road bridge from Tower Bridge to Windsor.
>
>Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value
>purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that
>Octopus is used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking
>regulation.

And this sort of restriction (while banking law is generally to be
admired) is the cause of a great deal of interoperability issues.

It means that customers have to acquire a new smartcard (electronic
purse or ticket wallet) for every different application. I know that in
theory there are "multi-product" cards, but I don't know of any examples
in the wild, and whether for example trying to load a bus pass onto a
library ticket is going to fall foul of red tape at the bus depot or
library.

It's even worse, because each card generally has a separate and
proprietary system for loading more credit. So my child now has a
"school meals" smartcard, but I have to learn a completely new online
site to go top it up. Cash has some interoperability advantages, after
all.

I wonder if paywave credit cards are the silver bullet that'll resolve
all this, although I'm sure there will still be a separate system to log
into to check your balance for school dinners or days left on your bus
pass, and it's unlikely there will be a "hint"[1] of that available at
the point of use.

[1] eg my bus pass shows how many days are left on the reader display,
an Oyster Card will give a "statement" from a TfL vending machine etc.

--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <jfdl62$t9k$3...@news.albasani.net>, at 06:15:30 on Sat, 21 Jan

2012, Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> remarked:

>>Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value
>>purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is
>>used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation.
>
>Ah! I wondered about that. Yet, pay-by-cell phone doesn't. Weird.

It may be something to do with cellphone PAYG balances generally being
"non refundable", whereas an Oyster card can be cashed in. As a result
it's more like a "bank balance" than buying "pre-pay vouchers" to spend
at multiple outlets. Gift cards are the same sort of model, you can
redeem them for goods in various places, but the balance isn't really
"cash".
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <jfcq6s$mlm$4...@leila.iecc.com>, at 22:35:08 on Fri, 20 Jan
2012, John Levine <jo...@iecc.com> remarked:

>They did trials using it to pay at McDonalds' drive-through on Long Island,
>but nothing came of it. Since you have to stop to pick up the order anyway,
>tapping a credit card doesn't slow the process down much.

McD's in the UK is one of the (relatively few) places where you can use
paywave credit cards. Although I always feel a bit awkward using a
credit card for such small purchases.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <U9nSq.1405$g85....@newsfe22.ams2>, at 23:55:31 on Fri, 20

Jan 2012, "houn...@yahoo.co.uk" <houn...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:

>> That's easier if there are a finite number of players (eg TfL and half a
>> dozen "Network Southeast area" National Rail companies). Scaling it to
>> numerous authorities operating independent bridges could be a problem.
>> Imagine a different operator was charging tolls for every road bridge
>> from Tower Bridge to Windsor.
>
>I wasn't talking about bridges, I was referring to transport.

My model was hypothesising about TfL running all the London Toll
Bridges, or alternative not, and them all being independently run.

>I wonder why there isn't one Smart Card for the greater New York area,
>similar to what we have here in London.

It sounds like there's "almost" one.
--
Roland Perry

[houn...@yahoo.co.uk]

They do have pay-by-cell for parking here in London, however.

[houn...@yahoo.co.uk]

Yes, it does sound it, except for the one disparity that MTA will not
accept SmartLink cards. I wonder if that is because the MTA does not yet
(ever?) have proper readers installed for Smart cards or because they
just don't want to work with the Port Authority.

What does SEPTA use on its city transport, by the way? How about the
Newark City Subway?

[Graeme Wall]

On 21/01/2012 11:27, Roland Perry wrote:
> It means that customers have to acquire a new smartcard (electronic
> purse or ticket wallet) for every different application. I know that in
> theory there are "multi-product" cards, but I don't know of any examples
> in the wild, and whether for example trying to load a bus pass onto a
> library ticket is going to fall foul of red tape at the bus depot or
> library.

My bus-pass is also my library card and works fine in both. Other
council "products" not relevant to me can also be loaded on it.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

[Mizter T]

On Jan 21, 12:07 pm, "hounsl...@yahoo.co.uk" <hounsl...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> On 21/01/2012 06:15, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>

> > Peter Masson<peter.mass...@privacy.com>  wrote:

>
> >> Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value
> >> purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is
> >> used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation.
>
> > Ah! I wondered about that. Yet, pay-by-cell phone doesn't. Weird.
>
> They do have pay-by-cell for parking here in London, however.

UIVMM none of the pay-by-phone (for parking) systems in the UK
actually take the payment directly from one's mobile bill / mobile
PAYG credit - they all require one to register with the provider (e.g.
<https://www.myringgo.com/>) first - which includes giving them your
credit/debit card details to store with your account - and then call
them in order to pay for parking.

[Mizter T]

On Jan 21, 6:15 am, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

> Peter Masson <peter.mass...@privacy.com> wrote:

> [...]

> >Oyster was originally going to be able to be used for other low value
> >purchases, such as newspapers and cups of coffee, in the way that Octopus is
> >used in Hong Kong, but this idea fell foul of banking regulation.
>
> Ah! I wondered about that. Yet, pay-by-cell phone doesn't. Weird.

There isn't really any pay-by-mobile (aka cell) system for paying for
products / services at the shop counter in the UK, at least not yet.

[Mizter T]

On Jan 21, 11:34 am, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <jfcq6s$ml...@leila.iecc.com>, at 22:35:08 on Fri, 20 Jan

You can of course use a Visa payWave debit card... if you've got one.
(Barclays have been one of the early movers in issuing payWave debit
cards.)

[Mizter T]

On Jan 20, 7:36 am, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <4f18b54b$0$1990$607ed...@cv.net>, at 19:29:03 on
> Thu, 19 Jan 2012, Michael Finfer <fin...@optonline.net> remarked:

>
> >> I doubt that a Smart Card would be used for bridge and tunnel tolls as
> >> most cars in the greater New York area are equipped with special
> >> transponders that toll gates read. They can also be used on other road
> >> agencies' territories -- even in Ontario, in Canada.
>

> >> Who knows, though?
>
> >It's the same technology, RFID, but tapping a smart card at a toll
> >booth defeats the big advantage that electronic tolling systems have:
> >no need to stop and open your window.

>
> >I'm not sure why any agency would go the smart card route for tolls.
>
> Instead of cash, for non-regular users. There's a toll bridge/tunnel at
> the Thames Estuary, for example, and while they have a transponder
> scheme my usage of the crossing when I lived nearby was only perhaps
> once a year. A contactless credit card seems a better bet than adding
> interoperability to any particular transport smart card though.

Contactless payments at the Dartford Crossing (which is the toll
bridge/tunnel in the Thames Estuary to which Roland refers) would be a
useful innovation - at present they don't accept debit/credit cards as
a payment method whatsoever, so you either need cash or a "Dart-
Tag" (they do apparently take Euro coins/notes too, presumably at an
unfavourable exchange rate, but they don't advertise it).

Take up of the Dart-Tag isn't that high either, nor are there any
'express' Dart-Tag only lanes - instead there are 'exact change only +
Dart-Tag' lanes with buckets in which you throw the exact change. I
think there were Dart-Tag only lanes in the past, dunno why they were
ditched (poss because the relatively low take up of the Tags made them
an inefficient use of lanes in the toll plazas?).

<http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/projects/4065.aspx>

[Mizter T]

On Jan 21, 12:26 pm, Graeme Wall <r...@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> On 21/01/2012 11:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>
> > It means that customers have to acquire a new smartcard (electronic
> > purse or ticket wallet) for every different application. I know that in
> > theory there are "multi-product" cards, but I don't know of any examples
> > in the wild, and whether for example trying to load a bus pass onto a
> > library ticket is going to fall foul of red tape at the bus depot or
> > library.
>
> My bus-pass is also my library card and works fine in both.  Other
> council "products" not relevant to me can also be loaded on it.

There were plans for combined Oyster + local library cards, to be
issued by London Borough councils, but this idea never took off for
whatever reason. (I can see all sorts of reasons why it could get
complicated in practice.) I'm not sure any London Borough councils
issue multi-purpose library + leisure centre cards either, as some
councils elsewhere do (perhaps partially because the operation of
leisure centres is often outsourced, though not always to private
companies - GLL and Fusion Lifestyle, who operate leisure/sports
facilities on behalf of many Boroughs, are charitable social
enterprises). Some London Boroughs of course are doing their best at
ridding themselves of the burden of providing a widespread public
library service, but that's another matter...

[Roland Perry]

In message
<de119583-fa7d-40d5...@o12g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>, at
04:29:14 on Sat, 21 Jan 2012, Mizter T <mizt...@gmail.com> remarked:

>> They do have pay-by-cell for parking here in London, however.
>
>UIVMM none of the pay-by-phone (for parking) systems in the UK
>actually take the payment directly from one's mobile bill / mobile
>PAYG credit - they all require one to register with the provider (e.g.
><https://www.myringgo.com/>) first - which includes giving them your
>credit/debit card details to store with your account - and then call
>them in order to pay for parking.

I was about to ask:

"How is the money abstracted - is it direct off the phone's
credit (as if it was an expensive call of some kind), or at
second hand by sending reverse-charge SMS?"

...but you seem to have an answer already.

That's back to the sort of proprietary per-vendor schemes I've been
moaning about, where you have to register with each one separately to
"top up" or get a statement.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message
<6315c237-e3aa-4511...@o13g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>, at
04:53:09 on Sat, 21 Jan 2012, Mizter T <mizt...@gmail.com> remarked:

>> > It means that customers have to acquire a new smartcard (electronic
>> > purse or ticket wallet) for every different application. I know that in
>> > theory there are "multi-product" cards, but I don't know of any examples
>> > in the wild, and whether for example trying to load a bus pass onto a
>> > library ticket is going to fall foul of red tape at the bus depot or
>> > library.
>>
>> My bus-pass is also my library card and works fine in both.  Other
>> council "products" not relevant to me can also be loaded on it.
>
>There were plans for combined Oyster + local library cards, to be
>issued by London Borough councils, but this idea never took off for
>whatever reason.

My bus card is actually a "Nottingham City Card", and if I was a
resident of the City (not the County) I'd have other "City" products
loaded onto it. For the purposes of this discussion that's still a
"single vendor" card.

http://www.citycardnottingham.co.uk/

[The retail savings are a bit underwhelming (eg one branch of Holland &
Barrett with 10% off for seniors on Thu only), my kids get much better
coverage with an NUS card. And of course, it doesn't deduct my
discounted purchases from the card's purse, it's just a token saying
"give this jolly decent chap a discount"].
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <t7ySq.338$Nc...@newsfe12.ams2>, at 12:26:40 on Sat, 21 Jan
2012, Graeme Wall <ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> It means that customers have to acquire a new smartcard (electronic
>> purse or ticket wallet) for every different application. I know that in
>> theory there are "multi-product" cards, but I don't know of any examples
>> in the wild, and whether for example trying to load a bus pass onto a
>> library ticket is going to fall foul of red tape at the bus depot or
>> library.
>
>My bus-pass is also my library card and works fine in both. Other
>council "products" not relevant to me can also be loaded on it.

Yes, it wasn't a very well chosen example, as there are some combined
municipal buses and libraries (although I'm registered with a Notts
County library not a Notts City Library, oh the joys of living close to
a unitary authority).

But I don't think I could load my Notts County library card onto my
Notts City bus card).
--
Roland Perry

[Robert Neville]

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>>They did trials using it to pay at McDonalds' drive-through on Long Island,
>>but nothing came of it. Since you have to stop to pick up the order anyway,
>>tapping a credit card doesn't slow the process down much.
>
>McD's in the UK is one of the (relatively few) places where you can use
>paywave credit cards. Although I always feel a bit awkward using a
>credit card for such small purchases.

McDonalds in the Chicago area took Mobil Speedpass (a small black keychain
device) in the early 80s. It was a predecessor to today's paywave type cards,
except that it was tethered to a Mobil credit account. Although primarily
intended to pay for fuel at the pump at area Mobil stations, there were a few
other places it could be used.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>at 06:13:10 on Sat, 21 Jan 2012, Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> remarked:

>>>>I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely
>>>>with photographs of license plates?

>>>Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates

>>No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as
>>the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders.

>We may have a problem with the word "enforce". While it's true that
>transponders are the primary means of collecting [US highway] tolls,
>supplemented in many cases by a cash-lane, what the cameras are doing is
>enforcing a regime where people need a transponder (or to use the
>cash-lane).

Not relying on transponders at all is more a sophisticated system, sure,
as the vehicle owner doesn't have to obtain any additional equipment in
advance.

I cannot wait for the day when everybody pays using DNA as identification.

>In the UK we talk about "Law Enforcement" to mean the way in which
>people like the police ensure people obey the law by various means, but
>primarily by the pursuit of offenders.

It's rather Big Brother-ish, isn't it. There's no privacy and it's
gotten easier and easier to track the movements of everyone. The loss
of privacy hasn't resulted in the prevention of crime, although it
can aid in finding perpetrators after the fact when it's too late.

Here in America, the cops are quite capable of capturing the dumbest
criminals, the ones who record their violent assaults (even murders
at times) then post them to social media.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Bankers are quite capable of stealing far more money than those who
commit bank robbery.

[Roland Perry]

In message <jfeljr$3l3$1...@news.albasani.net>, at 15:29:00 on Sat, 21 Jan

2012, Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> remarked:

>I cannot wait for the day when everybody pays using DNA as identification.

Tatoos on your forehead, perhaps.

>>In the UK we talk about "Law Enforcement" to mean the way in which
>>people like the police ensure people obey the law by various means, but
>>primarily by the pursuit of offenders.
>
>It's rather Big Brother-ish, isn't it. There's no privacy

Unless you pay cash, but that doesn't turn off the ANPR cameras.

>and it's gotten easier and easier to track the movements of everyone.
>The loss of privacy hasn't resulted in the prevention of crime,

It's difficult to be certain, because what might the crime rate have
grown to, without today's measures?

>although it can aid in finding perpetrators after the fact when it's
>too late.

It's supposed to be a deterrent. Although sending someone a $100 bill
for not stopping at a toll booth isn't necessarily "too late".
--
Roland Perry

[Stephen Sprunk]

On 21-Jan-12 00:13, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> at 21:08:37 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> remarked:
>
>>>> Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the
>>>> London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder).
>>>>
>>>> I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA.
>>>
>>> I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely
>>> with photographs of license plates?
>>
>> Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates
>
> No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as
> the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders.

That depends on what you mean by "primary". CTRMA (Austin, TX) and NTTA
(Dallas/Ft Worth, TX) give discounts for using a transponder, but those
without are simply billed by mail at the cash rate. As long as the bill
is paid on time, there are no fines.

>> (I don't think cars without transponders are impaled on spikes).
>
> Hah! I like spikes to protect grade crossings.

So an errant driver would be brought to a halt on top of the tracks,
directly in the path of an approaching train, rather than (as most do
today) make it across safely?

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

[Stephen Sprunk]

On 21-Jan-12 09:29, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>> In the UK we talk about "Law Enforcement" to mean the way in which
>> people like the police ensure people obey the law by various means, but
>> primarily by the pursuit of offenders.
>
> It's rather Big Brother-ish, isn't it. There's no privacy and it's
> gotten easier and easier to track the movements of everyone. The loss
> of privacy hasn't resulted in the prevention of crime, although it
> can aid in finding perpetrators after the fact when it's too late.

That's all LEOs can do in the majority of case: investigate crimes after
they occur and, where possible, pursue the offenders. They very, very
rarely stop crimes in progress, with the notable exception of speeding
tickets.

This assumes people will not commit crimes if they believe they will get
caught. However, that is not necessarily true; most criminals believe
they won't get caught, and some criminals (particularly those with drug
or alcohol problems) simply don't care or even _want_ to be caught.

> Here in America, the cops are quite capable of capturing the dumbest
> criminals, the ones who record their violent assaults (even murders
> at times) then post them to social media.

The solve rate is pretty bad, and the conviction rate is even worse.
And that's for violent crimes that get the most funding and attention;
for non-violent crimes, the cops are rarely even _aware_ of the crime,
and if one is reported, often all they do is file a report and move on.
This just encourages criminality, which eventually escalates into
violent crime, so it's a vicious cycle.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Stephen Sprunk <ste...@sprunk.org> wrote:
>On 21-Jan-12 00:13, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>at 21:08:37 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> remarked:

>>>>>Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the
>>>>>London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder).

>>>>>I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA.

>>>>I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely
>>>>with photographs of license plates?

>>>Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates

>>No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as
>>the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders.

>That depends on what you mean by "primary". CTRMA (Austin, TX) and NTTA
>(Dallas/Ft Worth, TX) give discounts for using a transponder, but those
>without are simply billed by mail at the cash rate. As long as the bill
>is paid on time, there are no fines.

fuck off Bill Clinton

>>>(I don't think cars without transponders are impaled on spikes).

>>Hah! I like spikes to protect grade crossings.

>So an errant driver would be brought to a halt on top of the tracks,
>directly in the path of an approaching train, rather than (as most do
>today) make it across safely?

Yes. I've explained my position many, many, many times on Usenet.
Errant motorists take needless risks with their own lives and the lives
of others because they don't believe they'll be injured or killed.
I want grade-crossing protection that increases the risk of death or
serious injury to the driver for gross violation as an example to all
the other idiots.

[Bruce]

"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

>Yes. I've explained my position many, many, many times on Usenet.
>Errant motorists take needless risks with their own lives and the lives
>of others because they don't believe they'll be injured or killed.
>I want grade-crossing protection that increases the risk of death or
>serious injury to the driver for gross violation as an example to all
>the other idiots.

Will there be guns involved? Pretty please?

;-)

[tim....]

"Stephen Sprunk" <ste...@sprunk.org> wrote in message
news:jfeps8$ge3$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 21-Jan-12 00:13, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>> Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> at 21:08:37 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com>
>>> remarked:
>>
>>>>> Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the
>>>>> London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder).
>>>>>
>>>>> I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely
>>>> with photographs of license plates?
>>>
>>> Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates
>>
>> No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as
>> the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders.
>
> That depends on what you mean by "primary". CTRMA (Austin, TX) and NTTA
> (Dallas/Ft Worth, TX) give discounts for using a transponder, but those
> without are simply billed by mail at the cash rate. As long as the bill
> is paid on time, there are no fines.

how does all this work with rental cars?

The last time I drove on a turnpike I handed over a dollar bill to a man in
a kiosk

tim

[John Levine]

>Yes, it does sound it, except for the one disparity that MTA will not
>accept SmartLink cards. I wonder if that is because the MTA does not yet
>(ever?) have proper readers installed for Smart cards or because they
>just don't want to work with the Port Authority.

Since the PATH takes Metrocards, it's clearly the former. Keep in
mind that PATH has 13 stations, while the MTA has 468 subway stations,
and thousands of buses. Assuming the smartcard will also work on
commuter trains, there are also 120 M-N and 124 LIRR stations, and if
it works on NICE and Beeline, several hundred more buses there.

Once the MTA figures out what kind of smartcard they're going to use,
they'll figure out how to make it work with SmartLink, or maybe
SmartLink will go away and be merged into

>What does SEPTA use on its city transport, by the way? How about the
>Newark City Subway?

SEPTA takes cash (how quaint) and tokens on buses and subway lines.
SEPTA says they're planning a smartcard
system that piggybacks on contactless EMV debit and credit cards.

PATCO, has distance sensitive fares, its own ticketing system, their
own Freedom smartcard that you tap in and out. The PATCO machines sell
slightly discounted SEPTA tickets for people transferring to SEPTA.

Newark City subway, HB light rail, and River Line are NJ Transit,
They're POP, buy and validate a ticket from a machine on the platform,
or carry a monthly pass.

R's,
John

[John Levine]

>> That depends on what you mean by "primary". CTRMA (Austin, TX) and NTTA
>> (Dallas/Ft Worth, TX) give discounts for using a transponder, but those
>> without are simply billed by mail at the cash rate. As long as the bill
>> is paid on time, there are no fines.
>
>how does all this work with rental cars?

The rental car company bills your credit card when the charge arrives,
and sends you an e-mail saying that they did it.

R's,
John

[John Levine]

>>>Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates
>>
>>No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as
>>the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders.
>

>We may have a problem with the word "enforce". While it's true that
>transponders are the primary means of collecting [US highway] tolls,
>supplemented in many cases by a cash-lane, what the cameras are doing is
>enforcing a regime where people need a transponder (or to use the
>cash-lane).

In some areas yes, in others, no. In Florida and Texas, and on the
407 and A25 in Canada, there is no cash lane. If you don't have a
transponder, they photo your plate and send you a bill. That's not
a violation unless, of course, you don't pay the bill.

In California, SR 91 has tolled express lanes which you can only use
if you have a Fastrak transponder, and driving on them without a
transponder is a violation. The regular lanes of the same road are
free.

R's,
John

[Stephen Sprunk]

In general, they send the bill to the registered owner of the car. A
rental car agency sends them back the contact information of the persons
who had rented the car at the specified dates and times on the bill, and
new bills are sent to those persons.

If you get a rental car at the airport, there is also an optional
program where you pay a flat rate per day, to be included in your rental
bill. If you paid for that option, the rental car company pays your
tolls rather than redirecting your part of the bill. (And the flat rate
is high enough they'll nearly always turn a profit doing so.)

> The last time I drove on a turnpike I handed over a dollar bill to a man in
> a kiosk

NTTA has closed all their cash lanes and is currently demolishing the
booths. CTRMA has kept their cash lanes open, but they are unstaffed
now and only accept coins; there is a sign on the machines saying "Don't
have correct change? Keep moving and we'll bill you!"

[Stephen Sprunk]

On 21-Jan-12 09:29, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>> In the UK we talk about "Law Enforcement" to mean the way in which
>> people like the police ensure people obey the law by various means, but
>> primarily by the pursuit of offenders.
>
> It's rather Big Brother-ish, isn't it. There's no privacy and it's
> gotten easier and easier to track the movements of everyone. The loss
> of privacy hasn't resulted in the prevention of crime, although it
> can aid in finding perpetrators after the fact when it's too late.
>
> Here in America, the cops are quite capable of capturing the dumbest
> criminals, the ones who record their violent assaults (even murders
> at times) then post them to social media.

For The Onion's take on this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ380SHZvYU

[Neil Williams]

On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:34:38 +0000, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

> paywave credit cards. Although I always feel a bit awkward using a
> credit card for such small purchases.

Why? I usually have a rule that if I can pay by card I do.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

[Mizter T]

On Jan 21, 9:24 pm, Neil Williams <pacer...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Jan 2012 11:34:38 +0000, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > paywave credit cards. Although I always feel a bit awkward using a
> > credit card for such small purchases.
>
> Why?  I usually have a rule that if I can pay by card I do.

I usually have a rule that if I can pay by cash for smaller purchases
then I do that.

[tim....]

"Stephen Sprunk" <ste...@sprunk.org> wrote in message

news:jffaa3$jfu$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 21-Jan-12 14:16, tim.... wrote:
>> "Stephen Sprunk" <ste...@sprunk.org> wrote in message
>> news:jfeps8$ge3$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> On 21-Jan-12 00:13, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence
>>>>> plates
>>>>
>>>> No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as
>>>> the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders.
>>>
>>> That depends on what you mean by "primary". CTRMA (Austin, TX) and NTTA
>>> (Dallas/Ft Worth, TX) give discounts for using a transponder, but those
>>> without are simply billed by mail at the cash rate. As long as the bill
>>> is paid on time, there are no fines.
>>
>> how does all this work with rental cars?
>
> In general, they send the bill to the registered owner of the car. A
> rental car agency sends them back the contact information of the persons
> who had rented the car at the specified dates and times on the bill, and
> new bills are sent to those persons.

So they don't make some staggeringly high charge for doing this (like they
would in Europe)

tim

[John Levine]

>> In general, they send the bill to the registered owner of the car. A
>> rental car agency sends them back the contact information of the persons
>> who had rented the car at the specified dates and times on the bill, and
>> new bills are sent to those persons.

Sometimes. In my experience, it's more common for the rental company
to pay the toll and then bill the customer.

>So they don't make some staggeringly high charge for doing this (like they
>would in Europe)

When I rented a car in Florida last year, I paid the rental car company and
it was about $3 plus the toll.

R's,
John

[John Levine]

>I usually have a rule that if I can pay by cash for smaller purchases
>then I do that.

Why? If you get points for every purchase, why not charge everything
you can? That's what I do.

This does assume you have the discipline to pay off your cards every month.

R's,
John

[Stephen Sprunk]

Nope; it's just the regular cash toll rate, plus a $2 fee per paper
bill, same as any other driver would get if they don't have a
transponder. Transponder users can choose electronic statements, which
are free, in addition to getting a significant (1/3) discount on tolls.

[Robert Neville]

"tim...." <tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>how does all this work with rental cars?

Presumably the same as it does with speeding citations. You get a bill from the
rental car company after the fact along with a hefty administrative surcharge.

[Stephen Sprunk]

On 21-Jan-12 16:23, John Levine wrote:

Please do not remove attribution lines.

>>> In general, they send the bill to the registered owner of the car. A
>>> rental car agency sends them back the contact information of the persons
>>> who had rented the car at the specified dates and times on the bill, and
>>> new bills are sent to those persons.
>
> Sometimes. In my experience, it's more common for the rental company
> to pay the toll and then bill the customer.

I was speaking to the specific examples further back in this thread,
which you have snipped in your response. I don't know how it's done
elsewhere.

[John Halpenny]

On Jan 21, 11:41 am, Stephen Sprunk <step...@sprunk.org> wrote:
> On 21-Jan-12 00:13, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>
> > Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> >> at 21:08:37 on Fri, 20 Jan 2012, Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> remarked:
>
> >>>> Off-hand I can only think of three toll routes in the UK, plus the
> >>>> London Congestion Zone (which I think doesn't have a transponder).
>
> >>>> I realise toll routes are much more common in the USA.
>
> >>> I didn't realize there were no transponders. It's enforced entirely
> >>> with photographs of license plates?
>
> >> Even toll roads in the USA are enforced by photographs of licence plates
>
> > No one enforces toll collection with photographs of license plates as
> > the primary system of enforcement. It supplements transponders.
>
> That depends on what you mean by "primary".  CTRMA (Austin, TX) and NTTA
> (Dallas/Ft Worth, TX) give discounts for using a transponder, but those
> without are simply billed by mail at the cash rate.  As long as the bill
> is paid on time, there are no fines.
>
> >> (I don't think cars without transponders are impaled on spikes).
>
> > Hah! I like spikes to protect grade crossings.
>
> So an errant driver would be brought to a halt on top of the tracks,
> directly in the path of an approaching train, rather than (as most do
> today) make it across safely?
>

He would only do it once!

[Adam H. Kerman]

Unemployed East German sharpshooters to protect and enforce grade
crossing is another possibility; this was someone else's idea.

[Graeme Wall]

In Denver paying the toll this way appeared to be a lot higher than the
'normal' charge. The whole system confused me enough that I didn't ever
bother using the toll road.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

[Roland Perry]

on Sat, 21 Jan 2012, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com> remarked:

>> paywave credit cards. Although I always feel a bit awkward using a
>>credit card for such small purchases.
>
>Why? I usually have a rule that if I can pay by card I do.

Because I know all the processing and billing costs have to be paid by
someone, and in the end it's the consumers. I'm also not that interested
in getting a credit card bill with dozens of tiny items on it, because
it makes it harder to spot the transactions that really do need
checking, rebilling to a client etc.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <jffdv3$619$2...@leila.iecc.com>, at 22:24:35 on Sat, 21 Jan
2012, John Levine <jo...@iecc.com> remarked:

>Why? If you get points for every purchase, why not charge everything
>you can? That's what I do.
>
>This does assume you have the discipline to pay off your cards every month.

Or get a charge card that gives points. But I'm still not in favour of
generating piles of paper and statement entries for what are in essence
petty cash transactions.
--
Roland Perry

[Graeme Wall]

On 22/01/2012 09:11, Roland Perry wrote:
> on Sat, 21 Jan 2012, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> paywave credit cards. Although I always feel a bit awkward using a
>>> credit card for such small purchases.
>>
>> Why? I usually have a rule that if I can pay by card I do.
>
> Because I know all the processing and billing costs have to be paid by
> someone, and in the end it's the consumers.

Handling cash has quite a high cost as well, again, ultimately paid by
the consumers.

[Roland Perry]

In message <2TQSq.1206$6e4...@newsfe05.ams2>, at 09:43:26 on Sun, 22
Jan 2012, Graeme Wall <ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>>>> paywave credit cards. Although I always feel a bit awkward using a
>>>> credit card for such small purchases.
>>>
>>> Why? I usually have a rule that if I can pay by card I do.
>>
>> Because I know all the processing and billing costs have to be paid by
>> someone, and in the end it's the consumers.
>
>Handling cash has quite a high cost as well, again, ultimately paid by
>the consumers.

As a rule of thumb it's about 1% for cash and 2% for credit cards.
--
Roland Perry

[Graeme Wall]

Debit cards?

[Roland Perry]

In message <vARSq.1209$6e4...@newsfe05.ams2>, at 10:31:55 on Sun, 22

Jan 2012, Graeme Wall <ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> paywave credit cards. Although I always feel a bit awkward using a
>>>>>> credit card for such small purchases.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why? I usually have a rule that if I can pay by card I do.
>>>>
>>>> Because I know all the processing and billing costs have to be paid by
>>>> someone, and in the end it's the consumers.
>>>
>>> Handling cash has quite a high cost as well, again, ultimately paid by
>>> the consumers.
>>
>> As a rule of thumb it's about 1% for cash and 2% for credit cards.
>
>Debit cards?

I'm less intimidated about using a debit card for small transactions, if
only because so many small shops seem happy to accept them rather than
credit cards. The fee will vary, but I've seen 25p-50p quoted for small
traders in the UK (which would break even with a credit card in the
ballpark of £20, depending on what rate they were charged for those).

And of course, the trader probably gets his money from the debit card
fairly transaction quickly, whereas when I took credit cards it was
monthly in arrears (two months for Amex I think).

For online use, Worldpay's current published rate seems to be 3.35% +
35p for both credit and debit cards.

Another outfit is charging less, on what they call "preferential terms":

Credit card 1.695%
Maestro 22.8p
Electron 24.3p
Visa debit 24.3p
--
Roland Perry

[tim....]

"Robert Neville" <do...@bother.com> wrote in message
news:c6hmh79e1rl3l83ue...@4ax.com...

It's the "hefty administrative surcharge" I was concerned about.

It's not unreasonable for a rental company to charge a renter for the work
involved processing something that shouldn't happen.

Quite another if the paperwork is unavoidable and caused by the authorities
not providing a system that rental cars can use without incurring that work

[Stephen Sprunk]

Exactly. When NTTA had cash lanes, there were indeed a hefty fees (from
both NTTA and the rental agency) for not paying a toll. When their cash
lanes were eliminated, those fines and fees were also eliminated, as
long as one paid the bill on time. CTRMA still has their cash lanes but
adopted the same pay-by-mail system as NTTA.

HCTRA and FBTRA don't (yet) do pay-by-mail, as with other toll roads in
the US, so the fines and fees are still there for their roads.

[Stephen Sprunk]

On 22-Jan-12 03:11, Roland Perry wrote:
> on Sat, 21 Jan 2012, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> paywave credit cards. Although I always feel a bit awkward using a
>>> credit card for such small purchases.
>>
>> Why? I usually have a rule that if I can pay by card I do.
>
> Because I know all the processing and billing costs have to be paid by
> someone, and in the end it's the consumers.

Many US retailers push for card use because they believe the labor and
fraud costs of handling cash are higher. This is particularly true for
debit cards, which have a significantly lower merchant fee for PIN
transactions rather than signature transactions. Cards are also faster
than cash for small transactions that are below the merchant's "floor"
and therefore do not require a signature _or_ PIN.

(Why the US doesn't have PIN transactions for credit cards, with the
same lower merchant rate, is a mystery to me. My credit card _does_
have a PIN assigned, for getting a cash advance at ATMs, but it doesn't
work for POS transactions.)

[Roland Perry]

In message <jfh8oh$eg0$1...@dont-email.me>, at 09:08:00 on Sun, 22 Jan
2012, Stephen Sprunk <ste...@sprunk.org> remarked:

>Many US retailers push for card use because they believe the labor and
>fraud costs of handling cash are higher.

Do you mean the risk of counterfeit banknotes? This is something that
seems to have been overcome in the UK one way or another.

Or is it employees pocketing the cash.
--
Roland Perry

[Graeme Wall]

The latter more likely. Plus the risk of robberies while the money is
in store or in transit to the bank.

[John Levine]

>>>how does all this work with rental cars?
>>
>> Presumably the same as it does with speeding citations. You get a bill
>> from the rental car company after the fact along with a hefty administrative
>> surcharge.
>
>It's the "hefty administrative surcharge" I was concerned about.

In my actualy experience, the surcharge is $2 or $3. You can decide whether that
counts as hefty, in the context of everything else you pay for a car rental.

Considering that people often pay $10/day for the rental company's overpriced
insurance, it doesn't seem very hefty to me.

R's,
John

[John Levine]

>>Why? If you get points for every purchase, why not charge everything
>>you can? That's what I do.
>>
>>This does assume you have the discipline to pay off your cards every month.
>
>Or get a charge card that gives points. But I'm still not in favour of
>generating piles of paper and statement entries for what are in essence
>petty cash transactions.

My wife got a free trip to Japan last years using the points from
those petty transactions. For that I can deal with a few slips of paper.

R's,
John

[John Levine]

>And of course, the trader probably gets his money from the debit card
>fairly transaction quickly, whereas when I took credit cards it was
>monthly in arrears (two months for Amex I think).

Back in the 1980s, that was about right. But times have changed, and
most credit cards now put the money in the merchant's account the next
day.

If a place offers a discount for paying cash, I'll take it. But here
in the US, other than a few petrol stations, they never do.

R's,
John

[Roland Perry]

In message <jfhbjq$abr$1...@leila.iecc.com>, at 15:56:42 on Sun, 22 Jan
2012, John Levine <jo...@iecc.com> remarked:

Perhaps it depends how many tolls you go through, and whether they
consolidate the bill. When I was in a hire car in USA last summer we
went through maybe five or six each way per day on a "road trip". We
were paying cash, but I was aware they had cameras to send bills to
people using the transponder lane without having a transponder.
--
Roland Perry

[Adam H. Kerman]

If one has a gold card or better from the credit card company, that includes
insurance for the collision damage waiver portion of rental company insurance.

As far as the state-required liability portion, if you own a car, it may
be included in your own policy. Even though your own policy covers liability
of other drivers who use your car, it won't cover them when they rent
their own cars.

There is such a thing as a non-vehicle owner liability policy. It covers
the driver when he rents a car. It also provides medical if the insured
is struck by another vehicle as a pedestrian or bicycle rider.

It's $400 or more a year, and probably a good idea.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Graeme Wall <ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 22/01/2012 09:11, Roland Perry wrote:
>>on Sat, 21 Jan 2012, Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>>paywave credit cards. Although I always feel a bit awkward using a
>>>>credit card for such small purchases.

>>>Why? I usually have a rule that if I can pay by card I do.

>>Because I know all the processing and billing costs have to be paid by
>>someone, and in the end it's the consumers.

>Handling cash has quite a high cost as well, again, ultimately paid by
>the consumers.

Cash has the extreme advantage of being intended as a universal purchase
medium so you DON'T need a credit bank or consumer identification card
or badge, unique to each merchant, that represents a credit card.

[Roland Perry]

In message <jfhbn6$abr$2...@leila.iecc.com>, at 15:58:30 on Sun, 22 Jan

2012, John Levine <jo...@iecc.com> remarked:

You must eat an awful lot of hamburgers. A trip to Japan is probably
worth at least $30k dollars of spending.
--
Roland Perry

[Alistair Gunn]

In uk.railway Roland Perry twisted the electrons to say:

> Do you mean the risk of counterfeit banknotes? This is something that
> seems to have been overcome in the UK one way or another.

Though 1 in 36 of every #1 coins is fake according to some counts ...
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

[Roland Perry]

In message <jfhd34$jpg$2...@news.albasani.net>, at 16:21:56 on Sun, 22 Jan

2012, Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> remarked:

>>Considering that people often pay $10/day for the rental company's overpriced
>>insurance, it doesn't seem very hefty to me.
>
>If one has a gold card or better from the credit card company, that includes
>insurance for the collision damage waiver portion of rental company insurance.

For USA cardholders and rentals in USA, perhaps. There's a whole bunch
of people for whom neither applies.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <jfhdr4$tgf$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, at 16:34:44 on Sun, 22 Jan
2012, Alistair Gunn <palmer...@yahoo.com> remarked:

>> Do you mean the risk of counterfeit banknotes? This is something that
>> seems to have been overcome in the UK one way or another.
>
>Though 1 in 36 of every #1 coins is fake according to some counts ...

The people who claim this never seem to have any guidance on how you can
tell, so I'm a bit sceptical.
--
Roland Perry

[John Levine]

>>If one has a gold card or better from the credit card company, that includes
>>insurance for the collision damage waiver portion of rental company insurance.
>
>For USA cardholders and rentals in USA, perhaps. There's a whole bunch
>of people for whom neither applies.

That rather surprised me. I have similar Mastercard credit cards from
HSBC in the US and the UK. The US card includes rental car cover,
like all high-end US cards do, the UK card doesn't.

R's,
John

[John Levine]

>>In my actualy experience, the surcharge is $2 or $3. You can decide whether that

>>counts as hefty, in the context of everything else you pay for a car rental. ...

>Perhaps it depends how many tolls you go through, and whether they
>consolidate the bill. When I was in a hire car in USA last summer we
>went through maybe five or six each way per day on a "road trip". We
>were paying cash, but I was aware they had cameras to send bills to
>people using the transponder lane without having a transponder.

In the US, some toll highways that have ETC also take cash, some don't. If
you blow through a transponder lane on the Garden State Parkway without a
transponder, you'll get a hefty fine in the mail, because that's a violation.
People without transponders are supposed to use the cash lanes available at
all of their toll plazas.

On the toll highways in Miami, on the other hand, the "toll plaza" is just a
gantry over the road. You can't pay cash. So in that case, what you get in
the mail isn't a violation, it's just a bill, and the surcharge is quite low.
I gather that in Florida, Sunpass has an arrangement with rental car companies
to report the tolls on their cars in close to real time so they can often
add the tolls to your bill when you return the car.

R's,
John

[Robert Neville]

Alistair Gunn <palmer...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Though 1 in 36 of every #1 coins is fake according to some counts ...

That was an interesting segment on Fake Britain...

[Nobody]

On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 16:20:52 +0000, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

And it's not really "free": we all pay for it with inflated pricing.