NJ Transit, the NYC subway, Metro-North, LIRR, and Amtrak are all
coming back to life. I haven't been able to find anything about PATH
since that picture of water flowing into a Hoboken station.
The PA's web site has a generic message from this morning saying that
it's messed up and they're working on it. Well, yes, we know that.
Any further info anywhere on what's damaged and what they're doing?
-- Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly
John Levine <jo...@iecc.com> wrote:
> NJ Transit, the NYC subway, Metro-North, LIRR, and Amtrak are all
> coming back to life. I haven't been able to find anything about PATH
> since that picture of water flowing into a Hoboken station.
> The PA's web site has a generic message from this morning saying that
> it's messed up and they're working on it. Well, yes, we know that.
> Any further info anywhere on what's damaged and what they're doing?
One article suggested that mid-town Manhattan service might begin on Monday, but the lower-Manhattan service would be out for "significantly longer". Another source suggested Nov 9 as a possible date, but it could be even later.
What is interesting is how much people in NYC have to depend on electricity and fragile overheads. Here in the less transit-dependent areas, we have back up heat and light in both houses, plus a source of water in one. But even during the past hurricanes, with the power off, water stayed on because the city towers still had a lot of water. In an apartment, you can't run a generator, or store anything, even propane for cooking. I suspect most people around here also have grills outside to cook on. The Times has pictures of people walking or using a bicycle. That seems to be about it until the subways get going again. Of course, we can do that too.
> NJ Transit, the NYC subway, Metro-North, LIRR, and Amtrak are all
> coming back to life. I haven't been able to find anything about PATH
> since that picture of water flowing into a Hoboken station.
> The PA's web site has a generic message from this morning saying that
> it's messed up and they're working on it. Well, yes, we know that.
> Any further info anywhere on what's damaged and what they're doing?
> -- > Regards,
> John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for > Dummies",
> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly
In <F56dnVT9ct3YqQjNnZ2dnUVZ_t6dn...@earthlink.com> "conklin" <nilknoc...@earthlink.net> writes:
>What is interesting is how much people in NYC have to depend on electricity >and fragile overheads. Here in the less transit-dependent areas, we have >back up heat and light in both houses, plus a source of water in one. But >even during the past hurricanes, with the power off, water stayed on because >the city towers still had a lot of water. In an apartment, you can't run a >generator, or store anything, even propane for cooking.
In most NYC homes and apartments, natural gas is used for cooking.
Generally you can operate the stove top without electricity [a]
although the over might need it.
The gas supply stayed up pretyt much everywhere, only getting
shut down in areas where there was actual damage to homes
leading to the utility cutting off all gas supplies.
[a] old [b] ovens/stoves used coninuously operating pilot
lights for the stove tops and "place long match here"
lighting for the oven. Newer ones have electrical "spark"
ignitors for the top - which you can get around by
using matches. But the stoves/broilers may require
a near continuous electrical suply for a "glow plate".
[b] gas powered stoves/ovens last just about forever, so there are plenty of mid 20th century usints still around.
-- _____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
> In <F56dnVT9ct3YqQjNnZ2dnUVZ_t6dn...@earthlink.com> "conklin" > <nilknoc...@earthlink.net> writes:
>>What is interesting is how much people in NYC have to depend on >>electricity
>>and fragile overheads. Here in the less transit-dependent areas, we have
>>back up heat and light in both houses, plus a source of water in one. But
>>even during the past hurricanes, with the power off, water stayed on >>because
>>the city towers still had a lot of water. In an apartment, you can't run >>a
>>generator, or store anything, even propane for cooking.
> In most NYC homes and apartments, natural gas is used for cooking.
> Generally you can operate the stove top without electricity [a]
> although the over might need it.
> The gas supply stayed up pretyt much everywhere, only getting
> shut down in areas where there was actual damage to homes
> leading to the utility cutting off all gas supplies.
> [a] old [b] ovens/stoves used coninuously operating pilot
> lights for the stove tops and "place long match here"
> lighting for the oven. Newer ones have electrical "spark"
> ignitors for the top - which you can get around by
> using matches. But the stoves/broilers may require
> a near continuous electrical suply for a "glow plate".
> [b] gas powered stoves/ovens last just about forever, so
> there are plenty of mid 20th century usints still around.
We understand that the newest gas stoves do require electricity to run. But, yes, the older ones would work.
What surprised me is that NYC's water supply seems to have been cut off in places. It is gravity feed, so why has it failed? Is it only tall buildings which require pumps?
In <CsadnQmP07-a2wjNnZ2dnUVZ_sidn...@earthlink.com> "conklin" <nilknoc...@earthlink.net> writes:
>We understand that the newest gas stoves do require electricity to run. >But, yes, the older ones would work.
Again, just about all the newer stoves can be used by lighting the tops with a match. Note that _some_ have
various safety interlocks that still require electricity.
Many newer ovens are a Big Pain.
>What surprised me is that NYC's water supply seems to have been cut off in >places. It is gravity feed, so why has it failed? Is it only tall >buildings which require pumps?
In just about all the city the water mains under the street
are gravity feed and continued working fine. There are
some trailing edges where it's pumped and if there was
extended failure, then there could have been trouble.
The other issue is that if the building is more than
five or so stories (depending on where in the system..)
then the water has to be pumped upstairs. But it's more
complicated than that...
Typically the water is pumped from the street main to
the rooftop tank, and then goes from there back to
the building. So even the first floor, which "could"
be ok if conected directly to the mains, will go
dry once the rooftop tank is used up.
-- _____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
> In <CsadnQmP07-a2wjNnZ2dnUVZ_sidn...@earthlink.com> "conklin" > <nilknoc...@earthlink.net> writes:
>>We understand that the newest gas stoves do require electricity to run.
>>But, yes, the older ones would work.
> Again, just about all the newer stoves can be used by
> lighting the tops with a match. Note that _some_ have
> various safety interlocks that still require electricity.
> Many newer ovens are a Big Pain.
>>What surprised me is that NYC's water supply seems to have been cut off in
>>places. It is gravity feed, so why has it failed? Is it only tall
>>buildings which require pumps?
> In just about all the city the water mains under the street
> are gravity feed and continued working fine. There are
> some trailing edges where it's pumped and if there was
> extended failure, then there could have been trouble.
> The other issue is that if the building is more than
> five or so stories (depending on where in the system..)
> then the water has to be pumped upstairs. But it's more
> complicated than that...
> Typically the water is pumped from the street main to
> the rooftop tank, and then goes from there back to
> the building. So even the first floor, which "could"
> be ok if conected directly to the mains, will go
> dry once the rooftop tank is used up.
The apartment I grew up in was on the first floor. There were six floors in the building. There was no complex water system at all. I kind of figured maybe it was still all that simple.
In <urOdnaCWC6ji9gjNnZ2dnUVZ_oOdn...@earthlink.com> "conklin" <nilknoc...@earthlink.net> writes:
>The apartment I grew up in was on the first floor. There were six floors in >the building. There was no complex water system at all. I kind of figured >maybe it was still all that simple.
You were in an area where the water pressure got to the sixth...
NYC building/zoning codes took the "mains pressure" into
account, so in some areas you could go six stories
without a water tank [a], others five or four...
This was a big reason why builders would design
up to certain heights.
[a] the other issue, of course, is the cost
of installing elevators. Depending on when
in NYC history the building went up, the
exact height before requiring an elevator
varied, but was most often (until recently)
up to six stories.
-- _____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
> In <urOdnaCWC6ji9gjNnZ2dnUVZ_oOdn...@earthlink.com> "conklin" > <nilknoc...@earthlink.net> writes:
>>The apartment I grew up in was on the first floor. There were six floors >>in
>>the building. There was no complex water system at all. I kind of >>figured
>>maybe it was still all that simple.
> You were in an area where the water pressure got to the sixth...
> NYC building/zoning codes took the "mains pressure" into
> account, so in some areas you could go six stories
> without a water tank [a], others five or four...
> This was a big reason why builders would design
> up to certain heights.
> [a] the other issue, of course, is the cost
> of installing elevators. Depending on when
> in NYC history the building went up, the
> exact height before requiring an elevator
> varied, but was most often (until recently)
> up to six stories.
We had an elevator, and I guess, good water pressure too!! But most of the houses in the area were row houses with a few single-family houses. Beyond us, it was almost all single-family (Flatbush).
On Nov 3, 11:19 am, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
> [a] old [b] ovens/stoves used coninuously operating pilot
> lights for the stove tops and "place long match here"
> lighting for the oven.
Our old gas oven (1948) worked that way. I hated it, since the oven
always lit with a big poof.
Our 1971 stove/oven (Caloric) was loaded with pilot lights for some
reason (no electric). But one of them somewhere was always going
out. The stovetop gas supply needed complete replacing at big bucks.
One benefit/danger of gas stoves was that they could be turned out as
a source of heat when there was no power. But that was strongly
discouraged being dangerous.
As to generators, several deaths have been reported from generator use
due to carbon monoxide poisoning.
On Nov 3, 3:18 pm, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
> [a] the other issue, of course, is the cost
> of installing elevators. Depending on when
> in NYC history the building went up, the
> exact height before requiring an elevator
> varied, but was most often (until recently)
> up to six stories.
Even for a young person, living on the fourth through sixth floor of a
walkup building must not have been fun, especially carrying
groceries. But then, New Yorkers have less heart disease than other
people.
On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 16:08:57 -0700 (PDT), hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>Even for a young person, living on the fourth through sixth floor of a
>walkup building must not have been fun, especially carrying
>groceries. But then, New Yorkers have less heart disease than other
>people.
When I was in my late 20s - early 30s we lived on the fourth floor of
a new walk-up apartment "block" and thought very little of it. Twenty
years later we lived on the fourth floor of an elevator-equipped
building and the few times that the elevator failed it was a struggle
to walk those stairs.
Times - and people - change.
---
Phil Kane - Beaverton, OR
PNW Beburg MP 28.0 - OE District
In <9ejb989d17mctusaf5f2t7gvq6or1t3...@4ax.com> Phil Kane <Phil.K...@nov.shmovz.ka.pop> writes:
>On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 16:08:57 -0700 (PDT), hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>Even for a young person, living on the fourth through sixth floor of a
>>walkup building must not have been fun, especially carrying
>>groceries. But then, New Yorkers have less heart disease than other
>>people.
>When I was in my late 20s - early 30s we lived on the fourth floor of
>a new walk-up apartment "block" and thought very little of it. Twenty
>years later we lived on the fourth floor of an elevator-equipped
>building and the few times that the elevator failed it was a struggle
>to walk those stairs.
>Times - and people - change.
Sir, you've just been exposed to one of the fundamental
changes taking place in the universe. Despite what the
physicists tell us, it's pretty clear that the unviersal
constant of "G" (gravity) is steadily increasing.
For confirmation, step onto you bathroom scale. For
most of us, the numbers are higher than a decade ago...
-- _____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>Even for a young person, living on the fourth through sixth floor of a
>walkup building must not have been fun, especially carrying
>groceries. But then, New Yorkers have less heart disease than other
>people.
Huh? I've had third-floor apartments. It didn't prevent me from doing
various things. A lot of people prefer not hearing their upstairs neighbors
walking around.
In an office building, if stairs are readily accessible and it's not
too many stories up, I use the stairs. I try to avoid temptations to
get lazier as I age.
danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>Phil Kane <Phil.K...@nov.shmovz.ka.pop> writes:
>>On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 16:08:57 -0700 (PDT), hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>Even for a young person, living on the fourth through sixth floor of a
>>>walkup building must not have been fun, especially carrying
>>>groceries. But then, New Yorkers have less heart disease than other
>>>people.
>>When I was in my late 20s - early 30s we lived on the fourth floor of
>>a new walk-up apartment "block" and thought very little of it. Twenty
>>years later we lived on the fourth floor of an elevator-equipped
>>building and the few times that the elevator failed it was a struggle
>>to walk those stairs.
>>Times - and people - change.
>Sir, you've just been exposed to one of the fundamental
>changes taking place in the universe. Despite what the
>physicists tell us, it's pretty clear that the unviersal
>constant of "G" (gravity) is steadily increasing.
>For confirmation, step onto you bathroom scale. For
>most of us, the numbers are higher than a decade ago...
There was less gravity on the higher floor you lived on when you were
younger!
In article <k73ovb$8b...@reader1.panix.com>,
danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
> Typically the water is pumped from the street main to
> the rooftop tank, and then goes from there back to
> the building. So even the first floor, which "could"
> be ok if conected directly to the mains, will go
> dry once the rooftop tank is used up.
One of the big hotels (I forget which one) has had its photo in our local newspaper recently as it has lost most of the top three floors.
The structure part is mostly still there but much of everything else is gone.
So, if your tank got blown away, you don't have to wait for the tank to go dry.
-- Please note this e-mail address is a pit of spam due to e-mail address
harvesters on Usenet. Response time to e-mail sent here is slow.
On Nov 3, 10:53 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> >Even for a young person, living on the fourth through sixth floor of a
> >walkup building must not have been fun, especially carrying
> >groceries. But then, New Yorkers have less heart disease than other
> >people.
> Huh? I've had third-floor apartments. It didn't prevent me from doing
> various things. A lot of people prefer not hearing their upstairs neighbors
> walking around.
Third floor is tolerable. Lots of garden court apartments have three
floors.
It's the fourth through sixth floors that get difficult.
What happens to older people with health conditions? What happens to
a person of any age with a temporary problem, like a broken leg or
sprained ankle, or some other illness?
> In an office building, if stairs are readily accessible and it's not
> too many stories up, I use the stairs. I try to avoid temptations to
> get lazier as I age.
In high school we had a job on the fifth floor of a building. We did
not enjoy walking up to the fifth flloor and used the elevator when
possible.
Indeed, our high scool had some classrooms on the fourth floor and we
didn't enjoy going from the first to the fourth. Nobody liked going
from the basement to the fourth.
On Nov 3, 10:53 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> In an office building, if stairs are readily accessible and it's not
> too many stories up, I use the stairs. I try to avoid temptations to
> get lazier as I age.
My mother lived in a two-story plus basement house. Undoubtedly
taking laundry up from the basement to the second floor was good for
her. But I don't think she would've liked going from a basement to a
third or fourth floor, or to carry groceries up such steps.
"conklin" <nilknoc...@earthlink.net> writes:
>What surprised me is that NYC's water supply seems to have >been cut off in places. It is gravity feed, so why has it >failed? Is it only tall buildings which require pumps?
As I recall, 5 stories is the head available from
upstate. That's why the building code allows 5 but not 6 story
walkups. If you need a water boost pump, you also need an
elevator.
-- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8...@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>On Nov 3, 10:53 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>Even for a young person, living on the fourth through sixth floor of a
>>>walkup building must not have been fun, especially carrying
>>>groceries. But then, New Yorkers have less heart disease than other
>>>people.
>>Huh? I've had third-floor apartments. It didn't prevent me from doing
>>various things. A lot of people prefer not hearing their upstairs neighbors
>>walking around.
>Third floor is tolerable. Lots of garden court apartments have three
>floors.
>It's the fourth through sixth floors that get difficult.
I never lived on the fourth floor of a walkup. Typically, Chicago lacks
such buildings, although a few were built in the last 20 years.
>What happens to older people with health conditions? What happens to
>a person of any age with a temporary problem, like a broken leg or
>sprained ankle, or some other illness?
hanco...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>On Nov 3, 10:53 pm, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>In an office building, if stairs are readily accessible and it's not
>>too many stories up, I use the stairs. I try to avoid temptations to
>>get lazier as I age.
>My mother lived in a two-story plus basement house. Undoubtedly
>taking laundry up from the basement to the second floor was good for
>her. But I don't think she would've liked going from a basement to a
>third or fourth floor, or to carry groceries up such steps.
When my mother was pregnant with my younger brother, we lived on the
top floor of a walk up.
Clearly, people cope with these buildings, else they couldn't find
tenants.
On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 18:49:16 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
<dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>Typically the water is pumped from the street main to
>the rooftop tank, and then goes from there back to
>the building. So even the first floor, which "could"
>be ok if conected directly to the mains, will go
>dry once the rooftop tank is used up.
I'm not sure that's accurate in all cases.
I live in an 18 story pre-war building in Midtown and many of my
friends live in similar buildings around town.
In our building, floors 1 thru 6 get their cold water directly from
the street. Above the 6th floor is gravity fed from a tank on the
roof. There are auxiliary pumps in the basement which feed the water
tank continually.
During the blackout of 2003 there was sufficient supply in the tank to
service the building for approximately 12 hours. Tenants on the lower
floors were unaffected when the supply ran out.
That was also the case in the London Terrace complex in Chelsea. My
friends on 2 had water this entire week. While people on the upper
floor for the most part fled to friends and family elsewhere.
Agent_C <agent-c-hates-s...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 18:49:16 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
><dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>>Typically the water is pumped from the street main to
>>the rooftop tank, and then goes from there back to
>>the building. So even the first floor, which "could"
>>be ok if conected directly to the mains, will go
>>dry once the rooftop tank is used up.
>I'm not sure that's accurate in all cases.
>I live in an 18 story pre-war building in Midtown and many of my
>friends live in similar buildings around town.
>In our building, floors 1 thru 6 get their cold water directly from
>the street. Above the 6th floor is gravity fed from a tank on the
>roof. There are auxiliary pumps in the basement which feed the water
>tank continually.
Makes sense. Saves on the electricity used to pump the water up.
In <75jc985r81o7mhc210smoc8n7eibet5...@4ax.com> Agent_C <agent-c-hates-s...@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>That was also the case in the London Terrace complex in Chelsea. My
>friends on 2 had water this entire week. While people on the upper
>floor for the most part fled to friends and family elsewhere.
Doesn't London Terrace generate its own electricity? Or
am I thinking of the complex next door... (Penn South?)
-- _____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
