Education Expense required for a charity - is it deductable?
Andrew
charitible organization that provides family counseling as a
county social service . The org is indeed listed in the IRS
online directory as an approved 501(c)(3) org. But before
they accept him, he is required to take a class or two in
counseling before he actually starts volunteering. Is this
class fee deductible as a charitible expense even though it
might be going to a for-profit educational institution.
What if the institution itself is non-profit (that probably
has nothing to do with it, I imagine.)
I've read IRS pub 526 without finding this situation
covered. He called the IRS, but the agent was not of much
help, apparently.
--
Regards -
- Andrew
<< ------------------------------------------------->>
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Dick Adams
> My brother is interested in working as a volunteer to a
> charitible organization that provides family counseling as a
> county social service . The org is indeed listed in the IRS
> online directory as an approved 501(c)(3) org. But before
> they accept him, he is required to take a class or two in
> counseling before he actually starts volunteering. Is this
> class fee deductible as a charitible expense even though it
> might be going to a for-profit educational institution.
> What if the institution itself is non-profit (that probably
> has nothing to do with it, I imagine.)
>
> I've read IRS pub 526 without finding this situation
> covered. He called the IRS, but the agent was not of much
> help, apparently.
Education required prior to employment is generally not
deductible. But, this is education required to qualify for
volunteer work. There should be a way to justify it upon
audit. But, I don't prepare tax returns. Ask the county
social service what they have done in the past.
Dick
David Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
> My brother is interested in working as a volunteer to a
> charitible organization that provides family counseling as a
> county social service . The org is indeed listed in the IRS
> online directory as an approved 501(c)(3) org. But before
> they accept him, he is required to take a class or two in
> counseling before he actually starts volunteering. Is this
> class fee deductible as a charitible expense even though it
> might be going to a for-profit educational institution.
> What if the institution itself is non-profit (that probably
> has nothing to do with it, I imagine.)
>
> I've read IRS pub 526 without finding this situation
> covered. He called the IRS, but the agent was not of much
> help, apparently.
Likely not a charitable deduction because he received
educational value for the cost. However it might qualify
for one of the educational tax benefits.
--
David M. Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
Woods Financial Services
Norwood, MA 02062
www.woods-financial.com
Nan Eklund
translation group. Education including language studies and
travel have been accepted for years. Another volunteered for
the Flying Doctors and took classes in connection.
I have no sites, just the fact that there have not been
audits of their considerable expenses.
Nan, EA in LA
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
A.G. Kalman
> Had a client who volunteered for the Wycliffe Bible
> translation group. Education including language studies and
> travel have been accepted for years. Another volunteered for
> the Flying Doctors and took classes in connection.
>
> I have no sites, just the fact that there have not been
> audits of their considerable expenses.
I don't want to get into a brouhaha on this but ..... Would
you please explain to us how an EA is able to conclude that
an educational cost is a deductible charitable expenditure
when nothing of tangible value was contributed to the
charity?
Alan
http://taxtopics.net
David Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
> Nan Eklund wrote:
>> Had a client who volunteered for the Wycliffe Bible
>> translation group. Education including language studies and
>> travel have been accepted for years. Another volunteered for
>> the Flying Doctors and took classes in connection.
>>
>> I have no sites, just the fact that there have not been
>> audits of their considerable expenses.
> I don't want to get into a brouhaha on this but ..... Would
> you please explain to us how an EA is able to conclude that
> an educational cost is a deductible charitable expenditure
> when nothing of tangible value was contributed to the
> charity?
I suppose the theory (which I do not subscribe to) is that
it is an out of pocket expense on behalf of the charity. Of
course the obvious problem with that stance is that you
receive something of value in exchange for the tuition cost
- the education.
--
David M. Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
Woods Financial Services
Norwood, MA 02062
www.woods-financial.com
<< ------------------------------------------------->>
Frederick Jorden
> Nan Eklund wrote:
>> Had a client who volunteered for the Wycliffe Bible
>> translation group. Education including language studies and
>> travel have been accepted for years. Another volunteered for
>> the Flying Doctors and took classes in connection.
>>
>> I have no sites, just the fact that there have not been
>> audits of their considerable expenses.
> I don't want to get into a brouhaha on this but ..... Would
> you please explain to us how an EA is able to conclude that
> an educational cost is a deductible charitable expenditure
> when nothing of tangible value was contributed to the
> charity?
Does this mean that a volunteer EMT cannot deduct her cost
of training?
--
Frederick E. Jorden http://Tax-Accounting-Payroll.com
7825 Midlothian Tpk - 207 Richmond, VA 23235-5247
EMAIL kno...@bigfoot.com
(804) 320-6210 FAX (804) 320-6211
Phoebe Roberts, EA
> Nan Eklund wrote:
>> Had a client who volunteered for the Wycliffe Bible
>> translation group. Education including language studies and
>> travel have been accepted for years. Another volunteered for
>> the Flying Doctors and took classes in connection.
> I don't want to get into a brouhaha on this but ..... Would
> you please explain to us how an EA is able to conclude that
> an educational cost is a deductible charitable expenditure
> when nothing of tangible value was contributed to the
> charity?
In order to perform useful volunteer services, the volunteer
needs to be trained. Assuming the volunteer doesn't get the
training for their own benefit, I can see the position that
the training expenses would be a deduction. Learning those
portions of an obscure language needed to translate a bible
seems like a skill unlikely to benefit anyone but the
charity.
Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable with deducting medical
school or pilot training for a volunteer with the Flying
Doctors, but a class on landing on makeshift airstrips or
treating common African parasitic infections (or something
else unlikely to come up other than in the course of
volunteer work) seems plausible.
Phoebe :)
D. Stussy
> an Eklund wrote:
>> Had a client who volunteered for the Wycliffe Bible
>> translation group. Education including language studies and
>> travel have been accepted for years. Another volunteered for
>> the Flying Doctors and took classes in connection.
>>
>> I have no sites, just the fact that there have not been
>> audits of their considerable expenses.
> I don't want to get into a brouhaha on this but ..... Would
> you please explain to us how an EA is able to conclude that
> an educational cost is a deductible charitable expenditure
> when nothing of tangible value was contributed to the
> charity?
As an "out of pocket" expense incident to a charitable
purpose - is the only thing that comes to mind [not to say
that I agree with the statement, but you asked how it was
possible]. I think that might have stretched things too
far.
--
How many rubber bands are broken in accounting classes where
the instructor uses them to demonstrate how far the rules
may be stretched? :-)
Nan Eklund
increase the ability to do volunteer work. That's a value,
and I'd call it tangible, like any ability. Similar to
uniforms and gloves for Little League coaches; similar to
medical equipment for Doctors Without Borders. Similar to
classes in religious history for a Sunday School teacher.
I remember looking this up about 20 years ago when I had a
nurse who flew into Baja California with a Flying Doctors
group. She already had some Spanish but took classes in
medical terminology so she could explain, in Spanish, using
the words for temperature, shots, parts of the body, various
medicines, etc. The class was purely for her volunteer work
and had no relationship to her regular job.
Nan, EA in LA
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
<< ------------------------------------------------->>
Dick Adams
Education required to meet the requirements for a new
occupation is not deductible. Volunteer work is not an
occupation. So the answer appears to be "It is deductible."
BUT as always "It depends on the facts and circumstances."
David Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
>>> Had a client who volunteered for the Wycliffe Bible
>>> translation group. Education including language studies and
>>> travel have been accepted for years. Another volunteered for
>>> the Flying Doctors and took classes in connection.
>>>
>>> I have no sites, just the fact that there have not been
>>> audits of their considerable expenses.
>> I don't want to get into a brouhaha on this but ..... Would
>> you please explain to us how an EA is able to conclude that
>> an educational cost is a deductible charitable expenditure
>> when nothing of tangible value was contributed to the
>> charity?
> Does this mean that a volunteer EMT cannot deduct her cost
> of training?
Not unless the company the EMT volunteers services for is a
charitable institution. Many EMT services are private for
profit companies. In fact, I am hard pressed to find an EMT
service that isn't for profit.
--
David M. Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
Woods Financial Services
Norwood, MA 02062
www.woods-financial.com
<< ------------------------------------------------->>
David Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
I don't see where getting the training for benefit for
anyone is a criteria, because the taxpayer still has the
benefit of the training after their charitable service is
done. How useful it is may be debatable, but the fact is
that they still have the training. This is a lot different
than typical out of pocket expenses such as supplies bought
or transportation a taxpayer must pay for on the charity's
behalf. Clearly the taxpayer would not receive any benefit
in those instances.
I'll play devil's advocate here. What if you lived in the
Bronx and worked with disadvantaged children. On October
27, 2004 you take them to a Yankees game and to dress for
the event, you bought a 2004 Yankees American League
Champions t-shirt (hehehehehe) from a premature and
unscrupulous vendor (as if such things exist in the Bronx)
outside Yankee stadium. For obvious reasons, the t-shirt is
now worthless, but you did get the shirt which still has
some value for being an article of clothing. Do you still
think you should deduct the cost of the shirt as an out of
pocket expense?
--
David M. Woods, EA, ChFC, CLU
Woods Financial Services
Norwood, MA 02062
www.woods-financial.com
<< ------------------------------------------------->>
Lynn Guini
> My brother is interested in working as a volunteer to a
> charitible organization that provides family counseling as a
> county social service . The org is indeed listed in the IRS
> online directory as an approved 501(c)(3) org. But before
> they accept him, he is required to take a class or two in
> counseling before he actually starts volunteering. Is this
> class fee deductible as a charitible expense even though it
> might be going to a for-profit educational institution.
> What if the institution itself is non-profit (that probably
> has nothing to do with it, I imagine.)
>
> I've read IRS pub 526 without finding this situation
> covered. He called the IRS, but the agent was not of much
> help, apparently.
Well, you folks can guess all you want, but I think Pub. 526
covers it:
_________________
Out-of-Pocket Expenses
You may be able to deduct some amounts you pay in giving
services to a qualified organization.
The amounts must be:
Unreimbursed,
Directly connected with the services,
Expenses you had only because of the services you gave, and
Not personal, living, or family expenses.
__________________________________
Sounds deductible to me.
Frederick Jorden
> It's an out-of-pocket expense for the charity incurred to
> increase the ability to do volunteer work. That's a value,
> and I'd call it tangible, like any ability. Similar to
> uniforms and gloves for Little League coaches; similar to
> medical equipment for Doctors Without Borders. Similar to
> classes in religious history for a Sunday School teacher.
>
> I remember looking this up about 20 years ago when I had a
> nurse who flew into Baja California with a Flying Doctors
> group. She already had some Spanish but took classes in
> medical terminology so she could explain, in Spanish, using
> the words for temperature, shots, parts of the body, various
> medicines, etc. The class was purely for her volunteer work
> and had no relationship to her regular job.
But even the language education for an RN would be
deductible as a professional or employee educational
expense.
--
Frederick E. Jorden http://Tax-Accounting-Payroll.com
7825 Midlothian Tpk - 207 Richmond, VA 23235-5247
EMAIL kno...@bigfoot.com
(804) 320-6210 FAX (804) 320-6211
<< ------------------------------------------------->>
Phoebe Roberts, EA
> I don't see where getting the training for benefit for
> anyone is a criteria, because the taxpayer still has the
> benefit of the training after their charitable service is
> done. How useful it is may be debatable, but the fact is
> that they still have the training.
If the training were provided by the charity, would its
value be taxable to the trainee? I think it wouldn't be.
So if you can donate $500 to the charity, enroll in their
free training course, and then volunteer, then you ought
also be able to pay $500 for a training course they specify,
then volunteer, with the same tax answer.
Phoebe :)
Frederick Jorden
>>>> Had a client who volunteered for the Wycliffe Bible
>>>> translation group. Education including language studies and
>>>> travel have been accepted for years. Another volunteered for
>>>> the Flying Doctors and took classes in connection.
>>>>
>>>> I have no sites, just the fact that there have not been
>>>> audits of their considerable expenses.
>>> I don't want to get into a brouhaha on this but ..... Would
>>> you please explain to us how an EA is able to conclude that
>>> an educational cost is a deductible charitable expenditure
>>> when nothing of tangible value was contributed to the
>>> charity?
>> Does this mean that a volunteer EMT cannot deduct her cost
>> of training?
> Not unless the company the EMT volunteers services for is a
> charitable institution. Many EMT services are private for
> profit companies. In fact, I am hard pressed to find an EMT
> service that isn't for profit.
Almost all rescue squads in Virginia have Volunteer EMTS and
they are charitable organizations. Now in big cities this
service is now provided by profit making organizations.
--
Frederick E. Jorden http://Tax-Accounting-Payroll.com
7825 Midlothian Tpk - 207 Richmond, VA 23235-5247
EMAIL kno...@bigfoot.com
(804) 320-6210 FAX (804) 320-6211
<< ------------------------------------------------->>
Andrew
But I specifically said the institution providing the
education was for-profit (assuming I read your term
'qualified' correctly). Only the volunteering organization
that he'll work with after the education is provided is.
The training institution may or may not be.
--
Regards -
- Andrew
<< ------------------------------------------------->>
Lynn Guini
I don't see a problem. It says "amounts you pay", not
"amounts you pay to a charity".
Nan Eklund
certainly not a non-profit organization. But the cost of
the uniform is deductible.
Nan, EA in LA
Entrenched belief is never altered by the facts.....
<< ------------------------------------------------->>
Andrew
> The store that sells uniforms to Scout troop leaders is
> certainly not a non-profit organization. But the cost of
> the uniform is deductible.
FWIW, my brother talked to an CPA friend who researched the
question at hand. According to her, IRS code 170 (not sure
of the specific subsections as I didn't write that done when
I spoke to him) contains enough information that she
believes it IS validly deductible, although the instance is
not specifically cited.
Thanks to all who ventured opinions.
Regards -
- Andrew