Computers? Calculators?
Jeffrey C. Dege
Your computers are scrap, the batteries in your calculators are dead.
Don't you wish you still had your slide rule?
I mean yes, early days are going to be rule-of-thumb, but there will be
a time when serious engineering will again be needed.
I know there are people participating in this group who could build a
lathe from metal scrap.
How many know how to reconstruct the logarithm tables? Some of us old
farts will remember why we used to need them.
--
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a
simple system that worked ...A complex system designed from scratch never
works and cannot be patched up to make it work. You have to start over,
beginning with a working simple system.
-- Grady Booch
Robert Sturgeon
Dege) wrote:
>OK - civilization has collapsed.
>
>Your computers are scrap, the batteries in your calculators are dead.
>
>Don't you wish you still had your slide rule?
I still have one. Damned if I remember how to use it, but maybe
someone will.
>I mean yes, early days are going to be rule-of-thumb, but there will be
>a time when serious engineering will again be needed.
>
>I know there are people participating in this group who could build a
>lathe from metal scrap.
>
>How many know how to reconstruct the logarithm tables? Some of us old
>farts will remember why we used to need them.
An abacus wouldn't be a bad idea either, and not too hard to make.
--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
Jeffrey C. Dege
>jd...@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) wrote:
>>
>>a time when serious engineering will again be needed.
>
>hand calculators that are nearly everywhere. The .99c Only chain
>recently was selling colorful transparent ones for .99c.. battery and
>solar powered. I bought 10. They are handy, I need them in the machine
>shop all the time, and they will be destroyed before they will wear
>out.
Those cheap solar-powered calculators are simple four-bangers. Eve so,
they can make logs and trig much easier, if you know the math.
Do you know the math?
--
At the Boston Globe, as at liberal university campuses, "diversity" is
defined as a staff that includes a black Marxist, a lesbian Marxist, a
Latino Marxist, a transgender Marxist, a feminist Marxist, a Native
American Marxist, and so forth. The one kind of diversity not permitted
is diversity of political view or values.
- Lowell Ponte
Jeff Schwartz
"Jeffrey C. Dege" <jd...@jdege.visi.com> wrote in message
news:slrn9quf19...@jdege.visi.com...
> On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:10:29 -0700, Gunner <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
> >jd...@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) wrote:
> >>
> >>I mean yes, early days are going to be rule-of-thumb, but there will be
> >>a time when serious engineering will again be needed.
> >
> >Early days will be done with the gazillions of solar powered cheap
> >hand calculators that are nearly everywhere. The .99c Only chain
> >recently was selling colorful transparent ones for .99c.. battery and
> >solar powered. I bought 10. They are handy, I need them in the machine
> >shop all the time, and they will be destroyed before they will wear
> >out.
>
> Those cheap solar-powered calculators are simple four-bangers. Eve so,
> they can make logs and trig much easier, if you know the math.
>
> Do you know the math?
>
I've run across some of the solars with square root and basic trig functions
(sin, cos, tan).
The other side of it is a nice solar charger for your battery powered
multi-function calculator.
I've got a little charger that handles 4 AA's, and an old Radio Shack Model
100 "laptop" (I use the word loosely) that runs on 4AAs. 32K of NVRAM and
full BASIC.... Yummy!
David M. Miller
the "rubber" book (IRC handbook of physical and chemical constants)
2-also, the Shaum's outline series for math. The calculus one saved my
butt! ( a hell of a lot more useful than sociology!)
3-with this information, you could reconstruct log and trig tables if you
needed to. But there are so many scientific calculators out there that
rechargeable batteries and a suitable charger(solar?) would save a lot of
labor.
4-I still have my old slipstick somewhere. I was a college freshman in
1971, and that year, the policy of "No Calculators" was still in effect, on
the assumption that not everyone could afford them-so I used my slide rule.
That was changed the following year, so I guess I am sort of the last
generation to use one.
N.B. I am not nostalgic. The problem with slide rules is not that they are
difficult to use, but that they only give you 3 significant digits
--
D M Miller
Delete DELETE in address to reply-anti-spam
"... The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"
-- W.B. Yeats, The Second Coming
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Jeffrey C. Dege <jd...@jdege.visi.com> wrote in article
<slrn9qt8fh...@jdege.visi.com>...
Jeffrey C. Dege
>1- one good book to have if you are putting a civilization back together is
>the "rubber" book (IRC handbook of physical and chemical constants)
Chemical Rubber Company's Handbook of Chemistry and Physics.
>2-also, the Shaum's outline series for math. The calculus one saved my
>butt! ( a hell of a lot more useful than sociology!)
>
>3-with this information, you could reconstruct log and trig tables if you
>needed to. But there are so many scientific calculators out there that
>rechargeable batteries and a suitable charger(solar?) would save a lot of
>labor.
The CRC has the tables. And the paper will last longer than the batteries.
>4-I still have my old slipstick somewhere. I was a college freshman in
>1971, and that year, the policy of "No Calculators" was still in effect, on
>the assumption that not everyone could afford them-so I used my slide rule.
>That was changed the following year, so I guess I am sort of the last
>generation to use one.
I used a slide rule in high school chemistry in 1975.
>N.B. I am not nostalgic. The problem with slide rules is not that they are
>difficult to use, but that they only give you 3 significant digits
There are slide rules that will give more than three significant digits.
Fuller, for example, made a slide rule with a scale that was 41 feet long,
wrapped in a spiral on an 18" cylinder.
http://www.hpmuseum.org/srcyl.htm
They show up on Ebay now and again, at prices I've never yet been able
to afford.
Not that it matters. Because you'll rarely be dealing with measurements
that have more three significant digits, anyway.
--
The aim of science is to seek the simplest explanations of complex
facts. Seek simplicity and distrust it.
-- Whitehead.
Charles Scripter
>>Your computers are scrap, the batteries in your calculators are dead.
>>
>>Don't you wish you still had your slide rule?
> I still have one. Damned if I remember how to use it, but maybe
> someone will.
Well, for simple multiplication/division, it's just a pair of
logrithmic "number lines".
Recall that Log(A*B) = Log(A) + Log(B).
Thus by adding the two numbers on this logaritmic "number line" form,
you multiply, then de-Log-ify the result, all in one step.
>>How many know how to reconstruct the logarithm tables? Some of us old
>>farts will remember why we used to need them.
I have my old CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, which I believe
includes 6-place log and trig tables.
Of course, I also have my Schaum's outline "Math Handbook", which has
a collection of integrals, and series solutions/equivalents for a
variety of problems (thus one has the necessary series solutions to
reconstruct sine, cosine, and a variety of other mathematical functions).
How good/complete is it? During my graduate physics career (including
Quantum Mechanics, thru Quantum ElectroDynamics), I used only Schaum's
Math Handbook, and Leibnitz rule (the rule for interchanging integrals
and derivatives, allowing differentiation under under the integral
sign) -- I only once had to look any integral up in the DREADED
"Russian Tables".
--
Charles Scripter * cesc...@progworks.net www.progworks.net/~cescript
When encryption is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir rapelcgvba.
Thinkit
> OK - civilization has collapsed.
>
> Your computers are scrap, the batteries in your calculators are dead.
>
> Don't you wish you still had your slide rule?
>
> I mean yes, early days are going to be rule-of-thumb, but there will be
> a time when serious engineering will again be needed.
>
> I know there are people participating in this group who could build a
> lathe from metal scrap.
>
> How many know how to reconstruct the logarithm tables? Some of us old
> farts will remember why we used to need them.
wonderful...then we can use hexadecimal and lojban.
Ian Stirling
>OK - civilization has collapsed.
>Your computers are scrap, the batteries in your calculators are dead.
>Don't you wish you still had your slide rule?
<snip>
If you can build a metal lathe, than you can make a battery.
All you need is a couple of different metals, some sort of electrolyte, and
a very small clue.
For small calculators, coins will work fine.
It's really hard to come up with a credible EOTWAWKI that would not have
at least some computers and calculators running at least a hundred years
afterwards, even if you don't allow any rebuilding.
IMO, you have to invoke things like evil-space-aliens that nuke anywhere
where they detect electronics.
Palm-computers also use very little power, and with their small size
and lack of interconnections are relatively EMP resistant.
Some (the palm with the titanium case comes to mind) would be very resistant.
90% of electric motors can in some way be used as generators, from motors
in toys upward.
I know that barring a VERY close nuke, if the stuff in my house is mostly
undamaged, that I'll have some form of computer running for the rest of my
life, if I need it.
A quick count revealed 15 working/ressurectable computers in my bedroom
(including palmtops, early notebooks, older laptops), and totalling them
all up, probably 30+ in and around the house.
This is my strategy in case I'm ever faced with roving bands of mutants,
I'll just offer to print them off some log tables :)
--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inqui...@i.am | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
My inner child can beat up your inner child. - Alex Greenbank
Lonnie Courtney Clay
>
> Your computers are scrap, the batteries in your calculators are dead.
>
> Don't you wish you still had your slide rule?
>
> I mean yes, early days are going to be rule-of-thumb, but there will be
> a time when serious engineering will again be needed.
>
> I know there are people participating in this group who could build a
> lathe from metal scrap.
>
> How many know how to reconstruct the logarithm tables? Some of us old
> farts will remember why we used to need them.
******************************************************************************
GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN GRIN
I have a Casio fx-115 scientific calculator purchased in 1985 for
$7.95 which is solar powered. I am puzzled by your question, obviously
you suckers do not shop at the kind of stores which I patronize. 38
keys double function, plus alternate modes, programmable instruction
memory, is 3x5.25x0.5 inches. And in case you are wondering, I
seriously doubt that it can be reverse engineered.
Lonnie Courtney Clay
Bob G
wrote:
>Palm-computers also use very little power, and with their small size
>and lack of interconnections are relatively EMP resistant.
>Some (the palm with the titanium case comes to mind) would be very resistant.
>
>90% of electric motors can in some way be used as generators, from motors
>in toys upward.
>
>I know that barring a VERY close nuke, if the stuff in my house is mostly
>undamaged, that I'll have some form of computer running for the rest of my
>life, if I need it.
>
>A quick count revealed 15 working/ressurectable computers in my bedroom
>(including palmtops, early notebooks, older laptops), and totalling them
>all up, probably 30+ in and around the house.
>
>This is my strategy in case I'm ever faced with roving bands of mutants,
>I'll just offer to print them off some log tables :)
LOLOL !
Chuckle, so I am not the only one around with a bunch of old stuff?
Just last week I was talking to a fellow at work and he mentioned that
he missed the old Procomm, DOS version.
I'm working a new job. As a field engineer working with building
automation systems, energy management systems, etc. Really ... I'm
just an overeducated technician <G>. The company just calls me an
engineer. But what the heck? They're paying me good money to look
over the shoulders of electricians and make sure they are connecting
the right wire to the right port, to know which dip switch to flip,
and then to sit with a laptop and tell the system what to do with it's
inputs and outputs. Geez, I don't even get dirty. The union guys
have a fit if I actually pull or hook up a wire myself. Jump all over
me if I have any tools in my hand other than my small 'tweaker'
screwdrivers, meters, and the laptop.
Anyway, this other fellow is one of my peers. We have to communicate
with the system, test the network, build a database of units with
their attributes, program control loops, etc.
One can use either a DOS-like or Windows enviornment to do these
things. The old farts like this fellow and I find the Windows
software overbloated, relatively slow, cumbersome, etc. If one knows
what one is doing, one can whip along the process MUCH faster with the
DOS interface. Much, much faster. I do go to Windows to set up the
final User interface for the customer, they like GUI's. But the bulk
of the setup and such I do in DOS. Even tho the manufacturer of the
system provides Windows utilities to do these things.
So this fellow was moaning about the manufacturer's provided comm
software, mentioned that with Procomm he'd have been able to set up
special programming using it's built-in programming language to
automate many of the routine tasks. Plus it simple responded faster,
he could do things by keyboard faster, etc.
So I gave him a copy of Procomm. The public domain version. He was a
happy camper, indeed.
I'd looked at the software loaded on the laptop the company provided.
Then at home booted one of my computers, loaded up some CD's on which
I keep a lot of 'ancient' software, and copied a number of DOS
programs and utilities to the laptop. Just to make life easier and
work faster. To give an example, in one project the 'experts' back at
the home office figured it'd take me 40 hours to do a build of a NBF
(name binding file), set up an initial startup settings table, do the
initial comms verification, etc. Took me less than 8 hours. That's
how I found out about the union guys getting upset if I did things
they considered 'their' job. Had a lot of time on my hands, was
poking about checking wiring, hardware, etc. 'Hmmmm, that damper motor
is installed backwards ... heck, I'll just fix that.' Got my hand
whacked for that one. And when I found that one of the network lines
wasn't working, and a leadman electrician caught me walking by with my
tracer ... he acted as if I'd just raped his wife or something. LOLOL
Anyway, I have numerous old computers, plus boxes of assorted cards,
floppy and hard drives, tape drives, etc and etc. Plus legitimate
copies, manuals and all, of old software stashed away.
I'm a unrepentent packrat. One corp I was working for, for instance,
was upgrading stuff. Was tossing out desktops, laptops, dumb
terminals, printers, ethernet cards, hubs, routers, etc etc. Geez, I
couldn't take it. Felt like an alcoholic who'd just found the
contents of a liquor store dumped in a dumpster. Asked the IT guys
about the stuff, they said I could grab whatever I wanted. My wife
moaned when I came home with a large pile of 'junk', as she called it.
She's changed her mind, since. Our home has it's own network, and has
energy management, automation, burglar and fire alarm, etc. All done
with old and obsolete stuff (and free or nearly so), for the most
part. Oh, we do have a couple relatively new Pentium computers. i.e.
The one in the den she uses a lot for doing graphics stuff. She, as a
hobby, will design quilts on screen before actually making one. Or
digitize photos, then alter or clean up and so forth. Then print on
photo grade paper to display. Or print to transfer paper to make
customized t-shirt, or as she did once as a gift, she made a quilt
whose patches were all photos covering the span of a couple's
marriage. Given to them for their anniversary.
Yep, old stuff is good. The price is right and much is still usuable
... if you understand it, know how it actually works.
Bob
I love my country ! It's the politicians I don't
like or trust.
Charles Scripter
>>A quick count revealed 15 working/ressurectable computers in my bedroom
>>(including palmtops, early notebooks, older laptops), and totalling them
>>all up, probably 30+ in and around the house.
> Chuckle, so I am not the only one around with a bunch of old stuff?
I don't have nearly as much as I used to...
When I moved, I dumped a literal TON of old electronics and computers
(as opposed to those who claim to have a figurative "ton" of stuff).
> couldn't take it. Felt like an alcoholic who'd just found the
> contents of a liquor store dumped in a dumpster. Asked the IT guys
<chuckle>... I know whatcha mean, Bob...
Y'know, I still haven't had the heart to part with the old MASER,
which I collected some years back.. ;)
Brown Thumb
<rst...@inreach.com> wrote:
>An abacus wouldn't be a bad idea either, and not too hard to make.
You've got one growing at the ends of your arms. Wish I'd had the
energy to teach my kids that "fingermath" stuff while they were still
little -- I was gonna, but...there were dishes, laundry, school
assignments, and I was working full-time. It's one of my big regrets.
I could probably learn it, but it wouldn't be second nature the way
it is with kids who learn it.
At the very least, it's good to learn how to count to 99 on your
fingers.
------------------------------------------------
Liberal in favor of the Second Amendment
Valentine Mehling
Over the years, quite a lot of stuff has had to be jettisoned (like the 8"
floppy drive with disks that I wish I still had), but I do have one item that
I have managed to hang on to. It is called a "DSI AN-7000 II Micro Comp". The
copyright date is 1981. It has two slots in the back marked PRINTER and DISK,
outputs for VHF Ch. 3, Video Monitor and, for Cassette - IN, OUT and MOTOR. At
one end is a connector sticking out which is labeled TRS-80 BUS. (There is no
serial number so I don't know if this was a production or prototype model.)
I also still have the original manual somewhere. As I recall, it mentions the
S-100 BUS and various scientific instruments which the system might have
interfaced with.
Buried in the ROM are the words, "I SHOT JR". The last time I tried, it still
worked.
--
Val Mehling
va...@earthlink.net
Web Pages
http://home.earthlink.net/~valjm/
XRL (Extreme Racing League) Pics
http://odin.prohosting.com/~valjm
http://odin.prohosting.com/valmeh/
Jeffrey C. Dege
>
>I also still have the original manual somewhere. As I recall, it mentions the
>S-100 BUS and various scientific instruments which the system might have
>interfaced with.
http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/lookup.cgi?ti=S100BUS&tt=BDIAMOND
S-100 Buss
(Frank Hayes)
When I was young, my friends all worked like fools to get their share
Of an S-100 system, like an Imsai or Altair;
Well the S-100's still around, I'm very glad to say
But friends, I'm here to tell you that it's not the same today.
cho: And it's cheer up, my lads, let your hearts never fuss
When you're integrating systems for the S-100 buss.*
To tell the truth, the source of all our troubles seems to be
A committee on computers of the I of triple E;
They settled on a standard spec, 696 by name
Now everything is standardized, but nothing works the same.
They say the 80 boards are way too slow it's enough to give you fits
If the 09 isn't fast enough, then go to 16 bits.
68 and z8000 and an 86 as well,
And code compatability goes straight to bloody hell
Then add a board for the modem line and one for every port
and a printer board and a keyboard board, and as a last resort
For every problem we will add a board that has the cure,
It's not too damned efficient, but it's a mother, that's for sure.
And when it's all assembled there's computer to your collar,
It's nice to have a micro but a mainframe would be smaller.
And when they turn the power on, it's sure to dim the lamps
With plus or minus sixteen volts and fourteen hundred amps.
* For some strange reason, computer types spell bus with an extra
"s", converting it from a common carrier to a sexual
experience. Maybe they know something we don't. RG
--
Recedite, plebes! Gero rem imperialem!
Charles Scripter
> Over the years, quite a lot of stuff has had to be jettisoned (like the 8"
> floppy drive with disks that I wish I still had), but I do have one item that
I had been looking for one of those to hang off my machine.
[if you wonder why my machine is called Quato, it used to have "2
heads" -- i.e. 2 full height 5.25" hard drives, that used too much bay
space, and drew too much power to start together. So the second HD was
placed outside the case with its own power supply... And as Quato got
upgraded, the name stuck]
What I had been looking for is an old reel-to-reel mag tape reader
(10" spools, IIRC)... Those held a whopping 250 MB, at 6250 BPI. ;)
> outputs for VHF Ch. 3, Video Monitor and, for Cassette - IN, OUT and MOTOR. At
> one end is a connector sticking out which is labeled TRS-80 BUS. (There is no
I dumped most of my relics, but kept a few samples. My museum still
includes a couple IBM XTs, an Apple IIe and an Amiga 500... (and the
usual collection of 286, 386 and 486 machines).
Louis Boyd
>
> Valentine Mehling <va...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Over the years, quite a lot of stuff has had to be jettisoned (like the 8"
> > floppy drive with disks that I wish I still had), but I do have one item that
>
> I had been looking for one of those to hang off my machine.
>
> [if you wonder why my machine is called Quato, it used to have "2
> heads" -- i.e. 2 full height 5.25" hard drives, that used too much bay
> space, and drew too much power to start together. So the second HD was
> placed outside the case with its own power supply... And as Quato got
> upgraded, the name stuck]
>
> What I had been looking for is an old reel-to-reel mag tape reader
> (10" spools, IIRC)... Those held a whopping 250 MB, at 6250 BPI. ;)
>
> > outputs for VHF Ch. 3, Video Monitor and, for Cassette - IN, OUT and MOTOR. At
> > one end is a connector sticking out which is labeled TRS-80 BUS. (There is no
>
> I dumped most of my relics, but kept a few samples. My museum still
> includes a couple IBM XTs, an Apple IIe and an Amiga 500... (and the
> usual collection of 286, 386 and 486 machines).
At some point you have to make the choice between computing and
nostalgia. For the survivalist neither are all that useful.
--
Lou Boyd
Bob G
wrote:
>sa...@pclink.com (Bob G) wrote:
>
>>
>>Chuckle, so I am not the only one around with a bunch of old stuff?
>>
>>Just last week I was talking to a fellow at work and he mentioned that
>>he missed the old Procomm, DOS version.
>
>Want it? LOL.. I use it daily to communicate with CNC machine tools.
>
>Gunner
>
Thanks, but I do have it.
The public domain DOS version; plus one each of the commercial DOS and
Windows versions, complete with original disks, manuals, etc.
I keep a bunch of old DOS stuff backed up on CD's.
Procomm is simply so damn useful for a lot of the things I do, I feel
lost without it. Well, not lost ... I can use other things ... let's
say I feel 'handicapped' without it.
JohnM348
I would love to know how to use a slide rule. I am one of the "newer" kids
of the graduating classes. I actually graduated High School back in '88 and
did the right thing and joined the military for a few years to serve my
country.
When I got out I had a huge culture shock when I went back to school. I had
to take a math class that required a calculator. I figured no problem, I had
one. When I first entered the class and saw that there was a required
calculator (TI-83) that cost about 100 times more than the little cheap oone I
had I about sh** myself.
Back when I had my last math class was in High School when I took Algebra
and Calculus and Geometry and had to do everything by the pencil and paper
method.
After 6 weeks of struggling thru my basic college math class I failed
algebra with a 20% average becuase I didn't know how to use the damn
calculator. I went back the next semester and learned how to use the
calculator and retook the class and passed with a 99%.
I asked my teacher why they were doing things with calculators now and not
teaching us how to actually do the math. He said they have determined that
more math could be taught if they used the calculator instead.
Johnny McD.
Gunner
Johnny, I posted a number of links to slide rules a week or so ago. Do a
Google search on Slide Rules or LogLog and there are a bunch of links
you can get to. Some quite good instructions on using them as well.
Gunner
----------------------------------------------------------.
"When one hears that the majority, not the constitution,
should define civil rights, one should feel a shiver of fear.
Constitutionally guaranteed rights protect gun owners,
property owners, people of different races and
many separate religions, to name a small number.
I will work to protect the rights of all,
not just some.
-- Rama O.A. Schneider, Williamstown, Vermont
----------------------------------------------------------
Lewin A.R.W. Edwards
> I asked my teacher why they were doing things with calculators now and
not
> teaching us how to actually do the math. He said they have determined
that
> more math could be taught if they used the calculator instead.
Exactly, because the calculator can remove the need to teach a lot of
mechanical skills. The calculator doesn't obviate the need for understanding
the underlying mathematical theory - it simply allows the student to
concentrate on the theory without getting bogged down in numerical details.
Having a calculator also lets you do a quick sanity check and increase
confidence in a solution that took you a lot of complex steps - you can plot
curves, pump some boundary case numbers through, and otherwise do some quick
checking to reassure yourself that you didn't make a monumental algebraic
screw-up along the way.
I just finished a couple of tertiary math units, pretty much the first math
study I've done in 10 years, and a graphical calculator was required
equipment - and BOY was I glad of that.
Charles Scripter
>> I dumped most of my relics, but kept a few samples. My museum still
>> includes a couple IBM XTs, an Apple IIe and an Amiga 500... (and the
>> usual collection of 286, 386 and 486 machines).
> At some point you have to make the choice between computing and
> nostalgia.
Nonsense! I still have LOTS of room in my basement and garage... ;)
Besides, as you well know, an old machine running linux can do a lot
of number crunching and/or controlling of hardware...
Until the mid-90's I was still crunching and analyzing my experimental
data on an old 10 MHz "turbo" XT. And my data acquisition card
wouldn't work in anything faster than the old classic 4 MHz machines.
Sometimes being able to do ones work is more important than
technological "snobbery" ("ewwww...that's a 286...")
Those old machines were generally far more stable and reliable than
most of the new ones.
> For the survivalist neither are all that useful.
I don't know about that. I suspect that some computer/electronics
guru might decide to make a living doing fly-by-wire astronomy,
permitting him to live in a rural area, and providing him with cash to
purchase needed supplies. That sounds pretty useful to me...
Cheese Monkey
"David M. Miller" wrote:
>
> 1- one good book to have if you are putting a civilization back together is
> the "rubber" book (IRC handbook of physical and chemical constants)
>
> 2-also, the Shaum's outline series for math. The calculus one saved my
> butt! ( a hell of a lot more useful than sociology!)
So you would rather have Elmers Glue all than specialty glues used for
the purpose at hand? You are aware Math is a LIBERAL ART? As is learning
how to play an instrument or even whistle. To know and understand your
enemy is also one.... Fear not the word Liberal....
Ike
Cheese Monkey
"Jeffrey C. Dege" wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2001 01:16:26 GMT, David M. Miller <dmmille...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> >1- one good book to have if you are putting a civilization back together is
> >the "rubber" book (IRC handbook of physical and chemical constants)
>
> Chemical Rubber Company's Handbook of Chemistry and Physics.
>
> >2-also, the Shaum's outline series for math. The calculus one saved my
> >butt! ( a hell of a lot more useful than sociology!)
> >
> >3-with this information, you could reconstruct log and trig tables if you
> >needed to. But there are so many scientific calculators out there that
> >rechargeable batteries and a suitable charger(solar?) would save a lot of
> >labor.
>
> The CRC has the tables. And the paper will last longer than the batteries.
Really... What if your paper burns, Gets liquid spilt on it, or blows
away?
Yea really useful paper is...
Ike
ttk_ciar
Once upon a time, jd...@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) said:
> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 03:01:10 GMT
>
>OK - civilization has collapsed.
>Your computers are scrap, the batteries in your calculators are dead.
>Don't you wish you still had your slide rule?
I *do* still have my sliderule, mostly because it has a periodic table
of the elements printed on its back. I haven't used the slidey bits in
years.
I won't need to set aside my computer to use the sliderule, though,
until my generators stop working. I'd probably limit myself to using
my laptop exclusively, since it consumes less power, and could be used
on an occasional basis when the power's off.
On a related note, when terrorist-laden planes started falling from
the sky, I started printing out documents I wouldn't want to be without,
three-hole punching them, and putting them into binders. I feel stupid
for not doing it before then.
>I mean yes, early days are going to be rule-of-thumb, but there will be
>a time when serious engineering will again be needed.
[..]
>How many know how to reconstruct the logarithm tables? Some of us old
>farts will remember why we used to need them.
Well, there's a logarithm table in the back of my old calculus text,
and if it hasn't disintegrated in the past decade I doubt it will do so
in the next decade. Hopefully if it starts showing signs of imminent
disintegration, I'll be able to get a replacement.
-- TTK
Jeffrey C. Dege
>
> On a related note, when terrorist-laden planes started falling from
>the sky, I started printing out documents I wouldn't want to be without,
>three-hole punching them, and putting them into binders. I feel stupid
>for not doing it before then.
On a laser printer? Or an ink jet?
Because laser toner isn't a long-term medium. Unless the printer is
very carefully maintained, and the toner is fused exactly right, the
toner tends to flake off the paper after a number of years.
Ink jet, well, that's water soluble.
Impact printers usually use ink that fades over time.
Interesting problem, isn't it?
--
Lord Karasumaru considered it a grave mistake on the part of the gods to
have made a man like himself a nobleman. And, though a servant of the
Emperor, he saw only two paths open to him: to live in constant misery or
to spend his time carousing. The sensible choice was to rest his head
on the knees of a beautiful woman, admire the pale light of the moon,
view the cherry blossoms in season and die with a cup of sake in his hand.
-- Eiji Yoshikawa, "Musashi"
Louis Boyd
> Well, there's a logarithm table in the back of my old calculus text,
> and if it hasn't disintegrated in the past decade I doubt it will do so
> in the next decade. Hopefully if it starts showing signs of imminent
> disintegration, I'll be able to get a replacement.
If it ever disintegrates you can display a repacement on your computer
in milliseconds. Print in in a few seconds more. ;-)
--
Lou Boyd
ttk_ciar
>
>On 24 Oct 2001 02:52:56 GMT, TTK Ciar <TTKCiar> wrote:
>>
>> On a related note, when terrorist-laden planes started falling from
>>the sky, I started printing out documents I wouldn't want to be without,
>>three-hole punching them, and putting them into binders. I feel stupid
>>for not doing it before then.
>
>On a laser printer? Or an ink jet?
On my handy old HP DJ500, an inkjet. A piece of equipment that's been
working steadily since around 1988. First time I used it, CP/M 2.2 was
pretty cool stuff, and I was thrilled to have my Z80 running at a grand
whopping 2MHz.
>Because laser toner isn't a long-term medium. Unless the printer is
>very carefully maintained, and the toner is fused exactly right, the
>toner tends to flake off the paper after a number of years.
I didn't know that. It's good to know .. thanks.
>Ink jet, well, that's water soluble.
Very true. I've had opportunity to demonstrate that several times
over the years (mostly from setting cold drink glasses on papers, and
letting the condensation soak them). :-/ On the other hand, it's also
taught me to be very careful, and to double-bag important files (files
go into boxes, boxes into trash bags, trash bags duct-taped shut) when
packed up for moving or long-term storage.
Though, these binders are just going on the shelf, for now. I'll be
moving in a year (hopefully onto my own property, woohoo!), and they'll
probably get stuck in long-term storage then.
>Impact printers usually use ink that fades over time.
>
>Interesting problem, isn't it?
Yep.
Long-term data storage is something that's crossed my mind from time
to time. Even floppies and hard drives get bitrot, when stored for too
long. For that matter, I've been seeing a high short-term failure rate
in supposedly high-quality floppy disks, too. I've taken to saving my
data to them in triplicate, which has proven worthwhile once so far.
I've been hankering to get a CDR for a while. Anyone know how long a
CD lasts, if simply kept in a sleeve in a binder on the shelf?
Printing to paper has been my traditional solution to storing data in
the long term, and it's served me pretty well. I've only had two really
catastrophic losses of printed data from wetness -- once when I left my
window open and my filing cabinet got rained on, and once when a box of
paperwork in the garage got urinated on, repeatedly, over the course of
many weeks, by my cat (which prompted my double-bagging habit).
-- TTK
Tim May
> Once upon a time, jd...@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) said:
> > Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 03:45:48 GMT
> >Because laser toner isn't a long-term medium. Unless the printer is
> >very carefully maintained, and the toner is fused exactly right, the
> >toner tends to flake off the paper after a number of years.
>
> I didn't know that. It's good to know .. thanks.
I've never seen this happen.
My experience:
-- Xerox copies I still have from the 1960s
-- Xerox copies I made at the very first Kinko's, in 1970 (yes, the
very first one, in Isla Vista, CA)
-- literally tens of thousands of xerographically-copied pages on
Xerox, IBM, and Kodak copiers during the 1970s and 80s. None that I
have looked at have ever "flaked."
-- thousands of pages of laser-printed pages from HP, Apple, and Epson
laser printers. None have "flaked."
Count me as a skeptic that this "flaking" problem is a serious one.
--Tim May
Louis Boyd
Only when you put it against plastic and it sticks.
--
Lou Boyd
Jeffrey C. Dege
I have.
Pages shelved in a three-ring binder, that when opened a number of years
later left the toner on the opposite page.
>My experience:
>
>-- Xerox copies I still have from the 1960s
>
>-- Xerox copies I made at the very first Kinko's, in 1970 (yes, the
>very first one, in Isla Vista, CA)
>
>-- literally tens of thousands of xerographically-copied pages on
>Xerox, IBM, and Kodak copiers during the 1970s and 80s. None that I
>have looked at have ever "flaked."
>
>-- thousands of pages of laser-printed pages from HP, Apple, and Epson
>laser printers. None have "flaked."
When it's happened to me, it hasn't so much as flaked off as that it
stuck to the opposite page.
>Count me as a skeptic that this "flaking" problem is a serious one.
Last time I saw a discussion on this subject, someone pointed to a US
Government site that discussed standards for testing and maintenance on
laser printers used for archival-quality material.
It does happen.
--
Our ability to imagine complex applications will always exceed our
ability to develop them.
-- Grady Booch