Water Purification
George Galli
I am looking for some information on water purification systems. It is in
regard to purifying surface water. everything that I came across on the web
so far that was for sale was not very effective in this area. They only
guaranteed that their machines worked in clear water. (Notice the touch of
sarcasm)
Are there any systems that will do an effective job in removing agricultural
chemicals, metals and microbes?
Also looking for some good info sites.
Here is a scenario:
You live in the city (heading to the country not an option) and your local
water supplies are cut off or contaminated and all stored water is depleted.
The only options are surface water sources. What is a good system to get a
source of drinking water?
Thanks
George Galli
gpg...@erols.com
John Chow
backordered everywhere so you need to place a order now. The Katadyn uses
.2micron ceramic filters which will remove all harmful particulates except
for viruses and chemicals(bad taste). Use an activated charcoal filter to
remove chemicals and either distillation or UV filtering to remove viruses.
There's just not a SINGLE magic method that will remove all bad
particulates. :(
George Galli wrote in message <75hqi0$sf5$1...@winter.news.rcn.net>...
Patton Turner
>Hello,
>I am looking for some information on water purification systems. It is in
>regard to purifying surface water. everything that I came across on the web
>so far that was for sale was not very effective in this area. They only
>guaranteed that their machines worked in clear water. (Notice the touch of
>sarcasm)
>Are there any systems that will do an effective job in removing agricultural
>chemicals, metals and microbes?
>Also looking for some good info sites.
See my FAQ on Mike's Web site, among other places
>Here is a scenario:
>You live in the city (heading to the country not an option) and your local
>water supplies are cut off or contaminated and all stored water is depleted.
>The only options are surface water sources. What is a good system to get a
>source of drinking water?
Surface water in an urban area will need to be filtered through
activated charcoal. If you expect to do this, don;t depend on the
limited ammount of charcoal in microfilters. FIlter the water first
through a full size charcoal filter (homemade or a water washer). As
far as pathogens, you can treat with a halogen (iodine or chlorine) or
use a microfilter, or a combination of the methods.
My choice would be to:
1) Allow the water to settle
2) pour through a coffee filter
3A) treat with 1 ppm iodine to kill viruses
or
3B) Treat with 5ppm iodine (will kill anything but crypto). This will
leave a iodine taste that should be removed by the charcoal filter.
If it isn't this is a sign the charcoal filter has reached the end of
it's life
4) Filter through a activated charcaol filter
5) Check for iodine taste
6) Filter though a microfilter with a carbon stage
This is over kill, but surface water in urban areas is going to be
grossly contaminated. Everything should be killed or removed twice.
or
1) Distill
2) Filter with activated charcoal
4) filter through a charcoal filter
Pat
Roger P Williams
> You live in the city (heading to the country not an option) and your local
> water supplies are cut off or contaminated and all stored water is depleted.
> The only options are surface water sources. What is a good system to get a
> source of drinking water?
This and another thread about salt water have recommended a lot of
high-tech mutli-step processes which require a lot of setup and in some
cases expensive hardware. None of this is really practical in a survival
situation such as you describe, and there is an entirely adequate way to
do this which uses no consumable filters and costs only a few bucks.
First, collect rainwater if you can. This may have some contaminants but
will be a lot cleaner than surface sources. However, surface sources can
be used as a last resort.
Either dig a pit or build a frame one to two feet high (or deep) and at
least six feet across (though the bigger it is, the more water you will
collect). If you build a frame, line it with plastic. You need it to be
reasonably vapor-tight but you also will have to periodically lift the
cover to get access to the interior.
Put your dirty water in the pit or frame. (The original idea for this was
that in an island/shipwreck survival scenario, the pit would fill itself
because it would extend below the water table, but this isn't practical in
many places in the continental US.) Spread it out as much as possible for
the maximum surface area. Put a can in the middle of the frame to receive
the clean water. Cover the pit/frame with plastic and put a rock on top
of it in the center so that the plastic forms a "V" with its tip over the
receiving can. Sunlight will evaporate the dirty water, it will condense
on the plastic, and drip down into the can. No fuel, no filters, no
consumables of any kind. You may need to replace the plastic every couple
of years due to UV degradation.
You do not need to filter out particulates if you are going to use
distillation -- distillation removes particulates. While the solar still
isn't as good as a multi-plate job it will remove most metals and
agricultural chemicals except for a very few, like phenols, which are just
plain very hard to remove.
Since it only works when the sun is out you will want to build excess
capacity for cloudy or freezing days and store the output. It does work
_all the time_ when the sun is out, and will let you use your dwindling
fuel supplies for other things.
--Roger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What will people of the future think of us? Will they say, as
Roger Williams said of some of the Massachusetts Indians, that
we were wolves with the minds of men? That we resigned our humanity?
They will have the right. -- C.P. Snow
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JonquilJan
> backordered everywhere so you need to place a order now. The Katadyn uses
> .2micron ceramic filters which will remove all harmful particulates except
> for viruses and chemicals(bad taste). Use an activated charcoal filter to
> remove chemicals and either distillation or UV filtering to remove viruses.
> There's just not a SINGLE magic method that will remove all bad
> particulates. :(
>
>
JonquilJan
ben williams
the mud, tadpoles, etc. then use the filter of your choice.
ben
Roger P Williams wrote in message <75j9q0$f...@junkie.gnofn.org>...
Patton Turner
The problem with solar distilling is it will distill anything else
with a vapor pressure close to or higher than water. This is OK if
you are worried about salt water, Ag chemicals or toxic plants. It we
are talking about urban surface water, you can be sure there is some
gasoline, fuel oil, and ethlyene glycol contamination. Probally
others as well. You will still need a activated charcoal filter.
Pat
Patton Turner
In theory yes. But it has a small ammount of activated charcoal, and
you have no way of knowing when it is used up. It wouldn't bother me
to use it to treat surface water in a rural area where you think their
might be low levels of ag chemicals, but I wouldn't use it to surface
water in a city. I've seen chemical analysis of some of the water,
and trust me, it is no where near fit to drink. In an emergency
figure the pathogen count will skyrocket as those left in the city
have no way to dispose of their sewage.
Pat
Tim May
pmtu...@mindspring.com wrote:
> In theory yes. But it has a small ammount of activated charcoal, and
> you have no way of knowing when it is used up. It wouldn't bother me
> to use it to treat surface water in a rural area where you think their
> might be low levels of ag chemicals, but I wouldn't use it to surface
> water in a city. I've seen chemical analysis of some of the water,
> and trust me, it is no where near fit to drink. In an emergency
> figure the pathogen count will skyrocket as those left in the city
> have no way to dispose of their sewage.
"Nature's crowd control." Part of the process of the inner city and
suburban warrens burning themselves out.
(I assume it'll take about 3-5 weeks to thin out the population.)
--Tim May
--
We would go to their homes, and we'd kill their wives and
their children. We would kill their families
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments.
Carl A. (Bart) Stiles
Patton Turner wrote in message <368675b8...@news.mindspring.com>...
>JonquilJan <war...@imcnet.net> wrote:
>
>>"John Chow" <ban...@texas.net> writes: > The best portable water filter
is the Katadyn unit. They are currently
>>> backordered everywhere so you need to place a order now. The Katadyn
uses
>>> .2micron ceramic filters which will remove all harmful particulates
except
>>> for viruses and chemicals(bad taste). Use an activated charcoal filter
to
>>> remove chemicals and either distillation or UV filtering to remove
viruses.
>>> There's just not a SINGLE magic method that will remove all bad
>>> particulates. :(
>>>
>>>
>>>What about the First Need?
>
>you have no way of knowing when it is used up. It wouldn't bother me
>to use it to treat surface water in a rural area where you think their
>might be low levels of ag chemicals, but I wouldn't use it to surface
>water in a city. I've seen chemical analysis of some of the water,
>and trust me, it is no where near fit to drink. In an emergency
>figure the pathogen count will skyrocket as those left in the city
>have no way to dispose of their sewage.
>
I have to admit that the general population is gonna be in trouble, and I
believe that 5 weeks or so is about right. Pat has some valid facts that I
do not dispute BUT........ The First Need has been proven to be effective as
a ONE STEP PROCESS for almost all contamination, as well as being rated for
100% of all viruses.
Jomqulin Jan is Correct in the thread , in that the First Need would be the
best choice for all contamination removal.
If you dont believe it by now...... check out this address:
http://www.general-ecology.com/ then click on TECHNICAL NOTES in the left
hand margin, then click on
Performance Data Sheet
for United States Standards
NATURE-PURE ULTRAFINE and NATURE-PURE MICROMATRIX
Drinking Water Purification and Microfiltration Systems
Here you will see the following report as to what the First Need will
remove, and I am happy to report that the Purifier will do it all, except
for remove SALT or Saline from Brackish Water sources.
As close as you can get to a One Stop Shop or Silver Bullet, and so far I
have yet to see or hear of anything that works better.
Thank you JJan for mentioning the First Need, as we have been through this
so many times, I believe that if any new information was able to present
itself, it would have already been presented.
Complete Text to follow of First Need's Performance Data Sheet.
As for another question brought up.. any water that passes throught the
First Need element has been properly treated, as this Purifier will actually
clog up when its useful life has been reached, including the capability to
gravity feed.
Any water that you collect theough the element is safe to consume.
Best Regards,
Carl A. Stiles
BEGIN QUOTE
Performance Data Sheet
for United States Standards
NATURE-PURE ULTRAFINE and NATURE-PURE MICROMATRIX
Drinking Water Purification and Microfiltration Systems
General Ecology presents data from testing specifically selected to
demonstrate product effectiveness in removing those contaminants most
frequently encountered in water supplies. Please note that all General
Ecology, Incorporated's test results represent performance using actual
contaminants, not substitute surrogates which some companies submit.
This Performance Data Sheet shows some of the removal capabilities of the
NATURE-PURE® products. It is recommended that before purchasing a water
treatment unit you have your water supply tested to determine your actual
water treatment needs.
Product Brand Names
NATURE-PURE® ULTRAFINE Drinking Water Purification System
NATURE-PURE® MICROMATRIXTM Drinking Water Purification System+
Manufacturer
All NATURE-PURE® Drinking Water Microfiltration Systems are manufactured in
the USA by:
General Ecology, Inc.
151 Sheree Boulevard
Exton, PA 19341
Operating Conditions
NATURE-PURE ULTRAFINE NATURE-PURE MICROMATRIX
Housing Composite Materials Composite Materials
Cartridge ULTRAFINE MICROMATRIX
Particle Retention 0.1 micron nominal
(0.4 micron absolute) 0.5 micron nominal
(1.0 micron absolute)
Pressure (psig) min/max 20/125 10/125
Flow Rate (gpm) 0.5 @ 20 psi 1 @ 10 psi
Average Capacity (gals) 500 1,000
Temp (F) min/max 35°/145° 35°/145°
pH min/max 5/9 5/9
•No electricity is required.
•Flow rate and capacity will depend on operating conditions and source water
characteristics.
• Do not freeze unit.
•The cartridge should be replaced annually, when the flow rate drops to an
inconvenient level or if tastes and odors should become evident.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Test Conditions
Important: Performance data were collected from testing on SEAGULL®IV, FIRST
NEED® and NATURE-PURE® units since they use the same matrix retention and
technology as the NATURE-PURE® ULTRAFINE. Similarly, performance data were
collected from Aqua-Polish®, SPARK-L-PURE® and MICROLITETM units as well as
the NATURE-PURE® for the NATURE-PURE® MICROMATRIX configuration. The data
are based on documented results from specific testing and are generally
regarded as indicative of the effectiveness to be expected but are not
specific claims of performance.
+ When used with proper chlorination--see instructions
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Test Data
ULTRAFINE
Important: Performance data were collected from testing on SEAGULL®IV and
FIRST NEED® as well as directly on the NATURE-PURE® units since all these
use the same matrix retention and technology as the NATURE-PURE® ULTRAFINE.
The data are based on documented results from specific testing and are
generally regarded as indicative of the effectiveness to be expected but are
not specific claims of performance.
Contaminant Tested
Influent
Effluent
Detection Level
MCL+
Organic Chemicals
1,1 Dichloroethane
10 ppb
ND
2 ppb
--
1,1,2-Trichloroethane
20 ppb
ND
2 ppb
5 ppb*
1,2-Dibromomethane (EDB)
1.9 ppb
ND
.2 ppb
5 ppb
1,4-Dichlorobenzene
73 ppb
ND
NSF Standard 53
5 ppb++
2,4,5-TP (Silvex)
30.6 ppb
ND
.05 ppb
10 ppb
2,4-D
338 ppb
ND
1 ppb
70 ppb
Aldicarb (Temik)
228 ppb
ND
1 ppb
7 ppb++
Carbon Tetrachloride
20 ppb
0.6 ppb
5 ppb
Chlordane
50 ppb
ND
1 ppb
20 ppb
Chlorine Residual
500 ppb
ND
50 ppb
250,000 ppb
Chloroform
300 ppb
ND
1 ppb
--
Dichlorethane
9.8 ppb
0.882 ppb
--
5 ppb
Diisopropyl ether
89 ppb
ND
--
--
Hexachlorobenzene
10 ppb
ND
.1 ppb
.1 ppb
Methoxychlor
114 ppb
<3 ppb
2 ppb
40 ppb **
P-chlorobenzene
10 ppb
ND
.1 ppb
5 ppb proposed *
PCB
0.05 ppb
ND
.01ppb
—
Tetrachlorethylene (PCE)
73 ppb
ND
NSF Standard 53
5 ppb
Trichloroethylene (TCE)
328 ppb
ND
NSF Standard 53
5 ppb
Trihalomethane Total
92 ppb
ND
1ppb
100 ppb**
ND - None Detected
Contaminant Tested Influent Effluent Detection Level MCL+
Microbiological (colonies / 100 ml) (colonies / 100 ml) (colonies / 100 ml)
(colonies / 100 ml)
Campylobacter jejuni
1.6-3.0 x 107
ND
10
--
Cryptosporidia
1.8 x 103
ND
100
--
Escherichia coli
107
ND
1
0/100 ml
Fecal Coliform
103
ND
1
0/100 ml
Giardia lamblia
1.13 x 105+++
ND
1
--
Klebsiella terrigena
4.64 x 108
ND
3
--
Listeria monocytogenes
2.2-2.8 x 107
ND
10
--
Polio Virus/Rota virus
2.39 x 106
ND
150
--
Pseudomonas aerigompsa§
103
ND
1
--
Salmonella typhi§
105
ND
1
0/100 ml
Staphylococcus aureus§
106
ND
1
--
Streptococcus foecalis§
105
ND
1
--
Vibrio cholerae inaba§
106
ND
1
--
Vibrio cholerae ogawa§
106
ND
1
--
Yersinia enterocolitica
2.0-2.8 x 105
ND
10
--
ND - None Detected
Contaminant Tested Influent Effluent Detection Level MCL+
Metals
Iron±
.8 mg/l
.06 mg/l
--
--
Lead¥
150 ppb
ND
2 ppb
15 ppb
Aesthetics Original Well Water Tested Water
Color
20
0
--
--
Hardness
72 mg/L
66 mg/l
--
--
Odor
abnormal
normal
--
--
Taste
abnormal
normal
--
--
Turbidity
2
0 --
1.0
ND - None Detected
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Test Data
MICROMATRIX
Important: Performance data were collected from testing on SPARK-L-PURE®,
Aqua-Polish® and MICROLITETM cartridges since both use the same matrix
retention and technology as the NATURE-PURE® MICROMATRIX. The data are based
on documented results from specific testing and are generally regarded as
indicative of the effectiveness to be expected but are not specific claims
of performance.
Contaminant Tested Influent Effluent Detection Level MCL+
Microbiological
Giardia lamblia
1.13 x 105+++
ND
--
--
Cryptosporidia
1.81 x 103
ND --
--
Chemical
Ethylene Dibromide (EDB)
19 ppb
<.02 ppb
>99%
0.5 ppb
Tetrachloroethylene (PCE)
80 ppb
<0.5 ppb
>99%
5 ppb
Trichloroethylene (TCE)
270 ppb
< 1 ppb
>99%
5 ppb
Metals
Lead
1150 ppb
<2 ppb
>99%
--
ND - None Detected
NATURE PURE® MICROMATRIX cartridges also remove the following, which some
individuals may find offensive if in drinking water:
Visible dirt
Turbidity
Offensive tastes
Chlorine
Color
Offensive Odors
When used with proper storage tank chlorination in RV and Marine
applications, a NATURE-PURE® MICROMATRIX System, also provides protection
against: Bacteria, Molds and Viruses. The MICROMATRIX cartridge removes
chlorine's resulting odor and taste as well as the chemical itself.
Otherwise only the Ultrafine cartridge should be relied upon for removal of
waterborne enteric disease bacteria.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Aesthetic Water Quality Improvement
NATURE-PURE® Drinking Water Microfiltration Systems also remove the
following, which some individuals may find offensive in drinking water: •
Chlorine • Foul Tastes • Color • Foul Odors • Turbidity
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Legend
+ Maximum Contaminant Level of Federal Standards shown unless a more
rigorous standard is indicated.
++ New York Maximum Contaminant Level is more rigorous than Federal level.
+++ Total per 500 gallons.
§ Sampled at less than rated capacity.
± Iron will tend to shorten cartridge life.
¥ Cartridge used in the test was 1 year 2 months old.
* Journal AWWA, February 1992.
** Water Technology, August 1991.
Note: NATURE PURE® systems do not remove beneficial dissolved salts and
essential minerals.
Various Federal, State and Local regulations may become known or change and
affect distribution and presentation
of performance claims. All health claims not in compliance with local or
state laws are hereby withdrawn.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Installation Instructions
The NATURE-PURE® Drinking Water Microfiltration System is designed to
connect to the cold water supply and also can connect directly to the main
faucet or an auxiliary faucet depending upon configuration selection. Please
see the Installation And Product Use Instructions for diagrams and detailed
step-by-step directions.
Warranty Statement
Every NATURE-PURE® Microfiltration System pressure vessel is warranted for
ten years, from the date of purchase, to be free from defects in materials
and workmanship when installed and operated according to General Ecology
Incorporated's detailed instructions. For service under this warranty,
please contact your NATURE PURE® dealer or General Ecology, Inc.
This warranty does not apply to damage to these products resulting from
accident, misuse, tampering, corrosion, modification or incorrect
installation. Cartridge capacity and performance will vary depending upon
water characteristics and for this reason, specifically are not covered by
this warranty.
Customer Satisfaction/Money Back Guarantee
We stand behind the quality and effectiveness of our NATURE-PURE® Drinking
Water Microfiltration Systems. If you are not fully satisfied with your
system, simply return it to the point of purchase within 30 days, undamaged,
for a FULL REFUND of purchase price.
Standards Conformance
Over the years, various General Ecology Products have been tested and
conform to the following industry standards:
* Pressure Vessel Integrity: American Society of Mechanical Engineers,
Section 8
* Materials of Construction: American Society of Testing Materials A 167,
ASTM B16, ASTM D2000,
* Non-leaching Standards: NSF 53
* Materials in Water Contact Applications: USFDA
* NSF53 -- Pertinent Sections
* State Requirements: • California Testing Protocol
• New York Testing Protocol
• Wisconsin Plumbing Codes
• Massachusetts Plumbing Codes
* Overall Product Safety and Effectiveness Verification:
Analytical Consulting Service, Inc. Kinsington, MD USA
Betz, Converse, Murdoch, Inc. Plymouth Meeting, PA USA
Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO USA
Field Epidemiology Survey Team Miami, FL USA
Food Quality Lab/Pacific Pure Water, Inc. Honolulu, HI USA
Food Research Institute Madison, WI USA
General Ecology Water Research Lab Exton, PA USA
Marine Testing Institute Mamaroneck, NY USA
Marist College Research Institute Poughkeepsie, NY USA
National Testing Laboratories, Inc. Cleveland, OH USA
Rockaway Township Health Department Rockaway, NJ USA
Roy Weston Laboratories West Chester, PA USA
Spectrum Labs Fort Lauderdale, FL USA
State of Massachusetts Massachusetts USA
State of Wisconsin Madison, WI USA
Suffolk County NY Health Department Hauppauge, NY USA
Tighe & Bond Easthampton, MA USA
United States Army Biomedical R&D Lab Fort Detrick, Frederick, MD USA
United States Testing Company, Inc. Tulsa Division, OK USA
University of Arizona Tuscon, AZ USA
Villanova University Villanova, PA USA
Australian Water Board Sydney, Australia
Department of Public Health London, United Kingdom
Food & Hygiene Association Tokyo, Japan
Hungarian Health Ministry Budapest, Hungary
Institut Pasteur Paris, France
Italian Ministry of Health Rome, Italy
National Defence Headquarters Ottowa, Canada
Tokyo Food Sanitation Association Tokyo, Japan
TÜV German Technical Institute Germany
Manufactured and sold by:
General Ecology, Inc.
151 Sheree Blvd.
Exton, PA 19341 USA
European Sales and Service Office
General Ecology Europe Ltd.
St. Andrews House
26 Brighton Rd.
Crawley, W. Sussex RH10 6AA U.K.
+44 (0) 1293-400644 phone
+44 (0) 1293-539022 fax
Part No. 200064
EPA Est. Reg. No. 37403-PA01
General Ecology, Inc. 800-441-8166 Phone 610-363-7900 Fax 610-363-0412
www.general-ecology.com
© 1998 General Ecology, Inc. ®TM Registered trademarks of General Ecology,
Inc. All health claims not in accordance with local or state laws are hereby
withdrawn.
Supplies4Y2K.com
wrote:
>Hello,
>I am looking for some information on water purification systems. It is in
>regard to purifying surface water. everything that I came across on the web
>so far that was for sale was not very effective in this area. They only
>guaranteed that their machines worked in clear water. (Notice the touch of
>sarcasm)
>Are there any systems that will do an effective job in removing agricultural
>chemicals, metals and microbes?
>Also looking for some good info sites.
>
>Here is a scenario:
>You live in the city (heading to the country not an option) and your local
>water supplies are cut off or contaminated and all stored water is depleted.
>The only options are surface water sources. What is a good system to get a
>source of drinking water?
>
>Thanks
>George Galli
>gpg...@erols.com
>
>
I am gonna reccomend a product we are beginning to sell ( due to your
exact description above ... )
Some info:
Company: PUREFLOW-2000
Model: DS-3000
Our ultimate Triple stage filtration (Three stages is the key to your
question... and the answer vs, what 99% of the people are buying...
and the companies are selling: i.e. Backpack Filters.)
1st stage:
5 micron prefilter w/ 6 ft2 of filtering area-
Removes Mud, Dirt, and other Particles.
2nd stage:
Doulton Ceramic Cleanable cartridge for
99.999% Bacteria & Cyst removal
3rd stage: Matrikx Solid Carbon Block for Chlorine,
Organic chemicals, Taste and Odors.
Can be used in your house system.... or as a "Table top" gravity
system
or a "Pump" which comes with the unit to "Take to the source".
$350 + $25 shipping anywhere in lower 48
Specifics available upon request: - It filters a lot of water... and
better than anything I have seen or read!
Cleaning Kit included:
+++++++++++++++++++++++
This next one is overkill... but the ultimate protection
( and it is cool!!)
+++++++++++++++++++++++
RO-5000
The Revolution in Reverse Osmosis
The RO-5000 uses a five stage filtration process utilizing a
combination of very fine and thorough sediment, bacteria, and chemical
pre-filtration and a high quality Thin Film Composite (TFC) Reverse
Osmosis Separation Membrane. Our RO-5000 also uses an exclusive
concentrate purge and clean water rinse to dramatically extend
membrane life from the standard 1-3 years to an amazing life of 7-8
years. All these features gives you some of the purest water possible
and a system that will keep doing its job for years down the road.
$695
hope this is of help!
contact us:
sa...@supplies4y2k.com
Subject: PUREFLOW2000
Send us any questions you may have!
**************************
Note -Spam Blocker in use
reply to:
webm...@Supplies4y2k.com
remove the "1" after webmasters if you "Reply to"
**************************
Supplies4Y2K.com
wrote:
>The best portable water filter is the Katadyn unit.
be very careful what you state as fact.
I sell that unit... and it is easy to get lured into
"Everybody is buying it... so it must be the best"
boy did I get taught a lesson by a pro on why that is not neccesarily
the case.
and that thinking and advice will not keep you from killing yourself
by drinking bad water. ( as I was explained in several hours of detail
on Water purification systems)
They are currently
>backordered everywhere so you need to place a order now. The Katadyn uses
>.2micron ceramic filters which will remove all harmful particulates except
>for viruses and chemicals(bad taste). Use an activated charcoal filter to
>remove chemicals and either distillation or UV filtering to remove viruses.
>There's just not a SINGLE magic method that will remove all bad
>particulates. :(
The "Combi" by Katadyn has been considered the best -- because
compared to the name brands we are all used to... it is
It has two filters....
it last longer....
SO it has to be the best
THAT'S WHAT I SAID! ( I got one in my basement and two more on
order... back order I should say!!)
Then I met these guys!
I am gonna reccomend a product we are beginning to sell
Some info:
Company: PUREFLOW-2000
Model: DS-3000
Our ultimate Triple stage filtration
Three stages is the answer to your question... and the answer to
what 99% of the people are buying... OR AT LEAST WHAT THEY THINK THEY
ARE BUYING IN MOST OF THE FILTERS IN TODAYS MARKETPLACE
BUT TWO STAGE FILTERS ARE NOT ENOUGH FOR A Y2K SURVIVAL SITUATION!
We are not all going to be drinking pure Mountain Stream water... or
water out of our pools.. or even our Blue barrels in the garage if
this thing goes on for very long!
CAN WE ALL AGREE ON THAT?.....
WE MAY BE TURNING TO SOME QUESTIONABLE SOURCES OF WATER!!!
So we NEED a 3 stage system ( in my opinion...)
Here is the situation:
a big mud puddle... or an old pond out in the country
( always filter it through something like a coffe filter or a
t-shirt--- even with the third stage... just to aid in prevention of
clogging)
Here is the solution we have came up with!
1st stage:
5 micron prefilter w/ 6 ft2 of filtering area-
Removes Mud, Dirt, and other Particles.
2nd stage:
Doulton Ceramic Cleanable cartridge for
99.999% Bacteria & Cyst removal
3rd stage: Matrikx Solid Carbon Block for Chlorine,
Organic chemicals, Taste and Odors.
Can be used in your house system.... or as a "Table top" gravity
system or a "Pump" which comes with the unit to "Take to the source".
We are shipping it as a "Take it and go to the source of water" type
unit like Katadyn & the others... although it is bigger than those.
$350 + $25 shipping anywhere in lower 48
Specifics available upon request: -
It filters a lot of water... and better than anything I have seen or
read! ( I do not have it up on the web yet... and I am heading to the
sack right now)
Cleaning Kit included:
+++++++++++++++++++++++
This next one has been called overkill... but the ultimate protection
( and it is cool!!)
+++++++++++++++++++++++
RO-5000
The Revolution in Reverse Osmosis
The RO-5000 uses a five stage filtration process utilizing a
combination of very fine and thorough sediment, bacteria, and chemical
pre-filtration and a high quality Thin Film Composite (TFC) Reverse
Osmosis Separation Membrane. Our RO-5000 also uses an exclusive
concentrate purge and clean water rinse to dramatically extend
membrane life from the standard 1-3 years to an amazing life of 7-8
years. All these features gives you some of the purest water possible
and a system that will keep doing its job for years down the road.
Filters everything
( Metalion, Atomic Radii, .... and all the other stuff!!)
$695
hope this is of help!
contact us:
sa...@supplies4y2k.com
Subject: PUREFLOW2000
Send us any questions you may have!
>
>
>George Galli wrote in message <75hqi0$sf5$1...@winter.news.rcn.net>...
>>Hello,
>>I am looking for some information on water purification systems. It is in
>>regard to purifying surface water. everything that I came across on the
>web
>>so far that was for sale was not very effective in this area. They only
>>guaranteed that their machines worked in clear water. (Notice the touch of
>>sarcasm)
>>Are there any systems that will do an effective job in removing
>agricultural
>>chemicals, metals and microbes?
>>Also looking for some good info sites.
>>
>>Here is a scenario:
>>You live in the city (heading to the country not an option) and your local
>>water supplies are cut off or contaminated and all stored water is
>depleted.
>>The only options are surface water sources. What is a good system to get a
>>source of drinking water?
>>
>>Thanks
>>George Galli
>>gpg...@erols.com
>>
>>
>
>
**************************
denny
Carl A. (Bart) Stiles wrote in message
<snip>
Thank you JJan for mentioning the First Need, as we have been through this
>so many times, I believe that if any new information was able to present
>itself, it would have already been presented.
And thank you Carl for all your postings on water purifacation. I bought a
First Need mainly on your advice.
Denny
Patton Turner
>Here is the solution we have came up with!
>
>1st stage:
>5 micron prefilter w/ 6 ft2 of filtering area-
> Removes Mud, Dirt, and other Particles.
>
>2nd stage:
>Doulton Ceramic Cleanable cartridge for
>99.999% Bacteria & Cyst removal
>
>3rd stage: Matrikx Solid Carbon Block for Chlorine,
> Organic chemicals, Taste and Odors.
>
This is basically the same arangement as the Sweetwater- If you are
using the slit stopper. Whats the rating on your ceramic stage? Do
you have any independant lab tests? If you can provide a bit more
info will add it to the FAQ.
Pat
Patton Turner
> As for another question brought up.. any water that passes throught the
>First Need element has been properly treated, as this Purifier will actually
>clog up when its useful life has been reached, including the capability to
>gravity feed.
>
>Any water that you collect theough the element is safe to consume.
The is simply isn't possable. There is no way the element can "clog"
when it reaches a certain level of saturation of adsorption sites.
Some of the molecules that are being filtered aren't much bigger than
a water molecule. Any good filter will clog up when it has
mechanically stopped enough matter. A good design will limit pressure
applied to the filter if it would damage the filter, or force
organisms through (not an issue with some filter material.). But this
has nothing to do with activated charcoal adsorption, a different
process than mechanical filteration.
The Sweetwater. First Need,. PUR, Combi, etc may do a fine job with a
few ppm of heavy metals or agricultural runoff, but they aren't big
enough to handle the huge contamination levels of urban surface water.
I have seen the numbers, as a result of bellcore and other studdies
into discharging surface water that becomes trapped in manholes.
Adding the iodine gives you some means of determining when the filter
media needs to be replaced. Otherwise it's nothing more than a wild
ass guess. Even if I built a filter out of a 55 gallon drum of GAC,
it would saturate eventually.
BTW, If I planned on depending on surface water in a city (not a
suburb), I think I would go with a homemade filter made from a 5
gallon bucket, full of GAC.
Pat
Carl A. (Bart) Stiles
Patton Turner wrote in message <3682dcc0....@news.mindspring.com>...
>>First Need element has been properly treated, as this Purifier will
actually
>>clog up when its useful life has been reached, including the capability to
>>gravity feed.
>>
>>Any water that you collect theough the element is safe to consume.
>
>when it reaches a certain level of saturation of adsorption sites.
Thats not how it works....... As long as water will flow..... it is safe to
consume. Its not designed to "shut down" at a particular point in time, but
everything that you can get will be good to go.
The Unit does not "break down" and start free flowing untreated water.....
unless you drop it and break the internal media.
If the water travels through the entire element..... it has been treated.
When the water wont flow, obviously it has not been treated.
>Some of the molecules that are being filtered aren't much bigger than
>a water molecule. Any good filter will clog up when it has
>mechanically stopped enough matter. A good design will limit pressure
>applied to the filter if it would damage the filter, or force
>organisms through (not an issue with some filter material.). But this
>has nothing to do with activated charcoal adsorption, a different
>process than mechanical filteration.
>
Who said it was Charcoal Media? And this unit is not rated as a "Filter",
but as a "Purifier". Because thats how 'other' inferior models work, I would
not assume that the First Need operates on the same principles.
First Need does not advertize "Charcoal Media".
I dont believe that "Activated Charcoal" is used in the chemical removal,
actually they state that a "Broad Spectrum Molecular Capture" system is
used, which to me, implies charged particles that physically attract and
hold opposing ions.
They go on to add "Electrokinetic Action" as a third method for removing
colloids and other particles too small to be removed by ultrafine
filtration, such as metals in suspension.
I never have seen the word "charcoal" associated with this unit.
Have you ever cut one open?
>The Sweetwater. First Need,. PUR, Combi, etc may do a fine job with a
>few ppm of heavy metals or agricultural runoff, but they aren't big
>enough to handle the huge contamination levels of urban surface water.
>I have seen the numbers, as a result of bellcore and other studdies
>into discharging surface water that becomes trapped in manholes.
>
Well here are the numbers posted by First Need for agricultural, trail
chemicals and runoff.:
From studying them for several minutes, it seems that heavy concentrations
of actual chemical contamination have been removed to safe levels. Keep in
mind that these tests included the "worst case" challenge water, along with
stagnation times allowed inside the filter for up to 48 hours between tests.
If you notice... on the 'effulent' side of the filter....... you will see a
lot of "None Detected's" meaning that ALL contamination was sucessfully
removed. I would say that its at least 98% ND in all cases without doing the
math. ( I saw two chemicals that were not 100%, but more like 99.96%)
I'm not saying that you should use this filter on Gasoline, Oil, or
Antifreeze....... and I bet that a lot of chemicals end up in storm sewers
and manholes from road runoff.
If thats all you have to drink...... you might be screwed.
Organic Chemicals
ND - None Detected
ND - None Detected
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>Adding the iodine gives you some means of determining when the filter
>media needs to be replaced. Otherwise it's nothing more than a wild
>ass guess. Even if I built a filter out of a 55 gallon drum of GAC,
>it would saturate eventually.
The First Need is designed to simply stop operating when it is no longer
useful. They advertize 125 Gallons of Pumping , then to switch to gravity
feed for additional purified water. You know they "low balled" their printed
estimates for legal reasons.
On the 'Outside' I'm confident in the first 300 Gallons of water from each
cartridge before I would get concerned.
I'm sure that the actual cartridge and internal design is good for 500 or
more gallons, but due to the size of the unit, it is safe to assume that you
will never get close to that amount of water before it cloggs.
All the water that you get through this unit wll be safe to consume, and if
you start to get around the 300 gallon mark, I would start to question if
the element had ever been dropped, and that the internal structure had been
damaged.
Until then..... I really would not worry.
>
>BTW, If I planned on depending on surface water in a city (not a
>suburb), I think I would go with a homemade filter made from a 5
>gallon bucket, full of GAC.
>
>Pat
That wont do much for Crypto. Cyclo, or Giardia now will it ? Not to mention
Viruses. What about stagnation of the particles in your bucket? After a few
days, your bucket may start to grow hair.
Carl A. Stiles
Patton Turner
>
>Thats not how it works....... As long as water will flow..... it is safe to
>consume. Its not designed to "shut down" at a particular point in time, but
>everything that you can get will be good to go.
>
>The Unit does not "break down" and start free flowing untreated water.....
>unless you drop it and break the internal media.
That can't be true when it comes to removing chemicals. The
technology to do this in the field doesn't exist. This should be true
of bacteria. cysts, particles, and maybe even viruses.
>
>If the water travels through the entire element..... it has been treated.
>When the water wont flow, obviously it has not been treated.
>
>
>
>>Some of the molecules that are being filtered aren't much bigger than
>>a water molecule. Any good filter will clog up when it has
>>mechanically stopped enough matter. A good design will limit pressure
>>applied to the filter if it would damage the filter, or force
>>organisms through (not an issue with some filter material.). But this
>>has nothing to do with activated charcoal adsorption, a different
>>process than mechanical filteration.
>>
>
>
>
>Who said it was Charcoal Media? And this unit is not rated as a "Filter",
>but as a "Purifier". Because thats how 'other' inferior models work, I would
>not assume that the First Need operates on the same principles.
I cut one open and they use a carbon block for both the microfilter
and chemical removal stage. Although they don't call it carbon, other
people have discovered this as well.
>First Need does not advertize "Charcoal Media".
>
>I dont believe that "Activated Charcoal" is used in the chemical removal,
>actually they state that a "Broad Spectrum Molecular Capture" system is
>used, which to me, implies charged particles that physically attract and
>hold opposing ions.
Sounds like activated charcoal to me.
>
>They go on to add "Electrokinetic Action" as a third method for removing
>colloids and other particles too small to be removed by ultrafine
>filtration, such as metals in suspension.
I think this was the enhancement to the previous model to allow it to
capture viruses and to meet the spec (not requirement) of a
microbiologic water purifier.
>
>I never have seen the word "charcoal" associated with this unit.
>
>Have you ever cut one open?
>
>
>>The Sweetwater. First Need,. PUR, Combi, etc may do a fine job with a
>>few ppm of heavy metals or agricultural runoff, but they aren't big
>>enough to handle the huge contamination levels of urban surface water.
>>I have seen the numbers, as a result of bellcore and other studdies
>>into discharging surface water that becomes trapped in manholes.
>>
>
>Well here are the numbers posted by First Need for agricultural, trail
>chemicals and runoff.:
>
>From studying them for several minutes, it seems that heavy concentrations
>of actual chemical contamination have been removed to safe levels. Keep in
>mind that these tests included the "worst case" challenge water, along with
>stagnation times allowed inside the filter for up to 48 hours between tests.
>
>
>If you notice... on the 'effulent' side of the filter....... you will see a
>lot of "None Detected's" meaning that ALL contamination was sucessfully
>removed. I would say that its at least 98% ND in all cases without doing the
>math. ( I saw two chemicals that were not 100%, but more like 99.96%)
But I also note the the challange levels are in the ppb range. It
could be a typo, but the "challange" level for residual chlorine is
500 ppb, half of what is generally considered to be the minimum
residual for water distribution. Somebody didn't bother to challange
it with tap water.
VOC levels in surface runoff in urban areas are well above the 1 ppm
level.
I don't doubt that this filter will remove compounds in low levels (a
few times the MCL), but I question the depth of the filter to remove
higher concentrations. I know it will not remove sustained
concentrations for long.
>
>I'm not saying that you should use this filter on Gasoline, Oil, or
>Antifreeze....... and I bet that a lot of chemicals end up in storm sewers
>and manholes from road runoff.
But that is what the poster wanted to know- How to treat suface water
in the city.
>
>If thats all you have to drink...... you might be screwed.
Think bags of activated charcoal, and some fuel to reclaim it.
Pat
Carl A. (Bart) Stiles
>>
>>I'm not saying that you should use this filter on Gasoline, Oil, or
>>Antifreeze....... and I bet that a lot of chemicals end up in storm sewers
>>and manholes from road runoff.
>
>But that is what the poster wanted to know- How to treat suface water
>in the city.
>
>>
>>If thats all you have to drink...... you might be screwed.
>
>Think bags of activated charcoal, and some fuel to reclaim it.
>
>Pat
>>
>>
Thanks for the information on the internals of the First Need cartridge. I
could not bring myself to destroy a cartridge.
I agree that straight out of the discharge at "Three Mile Island", or the
'road runoff' from your local neighborhood street has to be about the worst
source of water that I can think of , except for straight untreated sewage.
I would at least suggest searching for the local park, or city lake to at
least have diluted the contaminants to a reasonable level.
If you are forced to use "oily street driveway antifreeze runoff" for your
water source, I think I would pray for rain and collect it in buckets.
There has to be another source, even from the fountains at your local office
building, if there is no pond, creek or lake. Dont forget your neighbors or
apartments swimming pool, as you could offer a trade in treated water for
the use of their pool that they dont know how to treat. You may get lucky
and be able to locate some water in malfunctioning ICE machines, and maybe
even still in the bag.
The activated charcoal bucket for "street water" would be an extreme step,
and I personally would have to think about how thirsty I really was to rely
on that source alone. If you are forced to use this water, at least follow
it until it comes to a pool area for dilution, then collect your water from
18 inches below the surface. Double check any options that you may have
before consuming this source.
Dont light a match while drinking your water.
For those who are thinking that they may find themselves in this position in
the cities, I really cant think of a better reason to find another water
source now, on top of having large amounts of stored water.
Cheap above ground pools are an option for almost all city dwellers, if set
them up right before you anticipate a problem.
Carl A. Stiles
A. T. Hagan
pmtu...@mindspring.com (Patton Turner) wrote:
>"Carl A. (Bart) Stiles" <bli...@airmail.net> wrote:
>>
>>They go on to add "Electrokinetic Action" as a third method for removing
>>colloids and other particles too small to be removed by ultrafine
>>filtration, such as metals in suspension.
>
>I think this was the enhancement to the previous model to allow it to
>capture viruses and to meet the spec (not requirement) of a
>microbiologic water purifier.
This leads to an interesting question for both of you, if you don't
mind.
Is there any agency that does independent tests of camping filters
such as the PUR, Sweetwater and others? Home filters have organizations
such as the National Sanitation Foundation (NSF) that test and list those
filters they've tested, but nothing seems to exist for the camping and
backpacking filters that are so often discussed here. Other than relying
on the manufacturer's claims how are we to know the truth of whether these
filters will really do what they claim?
I know the EPA requires registration of some filters, but it's my
understanding that they don't actually *test* them to see if they really do
what they claim, you have to rely on what the manufacturers claim they did
in the tests they performed or am I wrong? I know Backpacker magazine did
a good piece on a number of filters in their December 1996 edition, but
that was just ease of use testing and not anything to prove or disprove
what the manufacturers claim? Maybe Consumer Reports? Anybody?
.............Alan.
--
From the House at Cat's Green -- Alan T. Hagan, NRA Life Member
The Universe is utterly indifferent to the fact that
you do not realize the consequences of your actions,
you will have to deal with them just the same.
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Carl A. (Bart) Stiles
A. T. Hagan wrote in message
<36ac5dc0....@nntp.a001.sprintmail.com>...
>>>
>>>They go on to add "Electrokinetic Action" as a third method for removing
>>>colloids and other particles too small to be removed by ultrafine
>>>filtration, such as metals in suspension.
>>
>>I think this was the enhancement to the previous model to allow it to
>>capture viruses and to meet the spec (not requirement) of a
>>microbiologic water purifier.
>
Speaking for the First Need Deluxe, and directly from their web site,
http://www.general-ecology.com the following standards apply to the First
Need Deluxe:
I'm sure that by looking at the list, any of several independent companies
could be easily contacted to confirm First Need's claims and inquire of
their exact test procedures.
Lets not forget the EPA Registration number<s> as all prominent products
being marketed today carrying an EPA Establishment Registration number
and/or a product registration number are represented to meet all current,
pertinent, EPA and other federal regulations. Otherwise they should not be
permitted on the market, but EPA registration does not ensure effectiveness.
Begin quote