Midnight Mass, St. James Cathedral
Jim String
quite anticipate the sheer number of people who showed up. There were
local TV station film crews in evidence, though they kept a low enough
profile.
While I'm generally adverse to large crowds of people this was important
enough to me to risk it and I'm very glad I did. It was beautiful. The
music was fantastic and even though it was very crowded the people in
attendence were very gracious and friendly, a smile was ready from any
face you looked at. Children were very well behaved and it was wonderful
to see the all of the families there and the joyous smiles on their faces.
I wore my big .45 in a shoulder holster under my suit, first time I've
ever actually worn that shoulder holster in public, but I wanted to dress
well for the occasion. I had a perfect tie for Christmas, though my shirt
could have used a bit more ironing. Oh well. I don't often get to wear
that particular suit, it's good to get up and hose yourself off once in
a while (in the immortal words of Moe the bartender of the Simpsons,
paraphrased).
I know some will question everything about bringing a sidearm to church.
Well, let's just let the terrorists know that there is private security
operating everywhere. I knew it was personally risky for me to go anywhere
near a large crowd but WTF, as long as I'm there I'm certainly going to
keep an eye out for troublemakers, terrorists and anything else unusual.
And I'm gonna have the means to deal with anyone who starts hurting
people...
Given how peaceful and beautiful the service was I suspect there were a
heck of a lot more guns there than my .45, I spotted quite a few candidates
for concealed carry including a couple of women.
Merry Christmas!
Best,
Jim
Shea F. Kenny
Jim, one of these days you're just going to have to admit it. The only
reason you're a gun rights advocate, is for the idea that one day you'll be at
the right place, at the right time. Some creep is going to be in the middle of
committing some crime, such that will justify you popping him off. Dead.
Now, this is usually just a phase that people go through, when initially
purchasing a gun. Most people visualize themselves in that role. However, they
also phase out of it.
Number one, you're fear mongering. No one but with an actual NEED for
recognition is going to broadcast they took a loaded gun with them to church,
for crying out loud. Thus, you have to create a sense of fear in the society
at large, to justify your actions.
Number two, you blow things out of proportion. Waco and Ruby ridge were
incidents, not standard government policy. Meaning, the reason those incidents
turned into tragedies, was the result of individual decisions. Period. There
are intelligent people in government, and there are stupid. It's just that
simple. It's well documented that the intelligent people were not listened to
and the dimwits were calling the shots.
Grow up will ya? There's more to life than being a super hero.
--
Shea F. Kenny (Moonbear, Lunar Development Corp)
World elevator wrestling champion
This has been, Lunar Network News
ICQ# 31930333
Jim String
>
> Jim, one of these days you're just going to have to admit it. The only
>reason you're a gun rights advocate, is for the idea that one day you'll be at
>the right place, at the right time. Some creep is going to be in the middle of
>committing some crime, such that will justify you popping him off. Dead.
Thanks for your opinion, but if that day never comes it will still be too
soon. It is one of my most fervent wishes that I can make it through life
without having to take another's. But, as I'm sure you've noticed, it's
kind of a cruel world out there.
I was just jazzed that I got to go to the Midnight Mass. It was something
to see (and hear). Beautiful. And worth the risk of being around large
crowds of people. Very gracious, peaceful, friendly, smiling and singing
people!
It was fun to get decked out in some of my finer threads, not much
call for that (anymore) in my day to day life. It's a cathedral after
all, not the usual little neighborhood parish where jeans might be
appropriate. So I wore my best stuff. I also kept an eye out. Surely
there's nothing wrong with that?
Merry Christmas!
Best,
Jim
Rick Bowen
wrote:
>
> Jim, one of these days you're just going to have to admit it. The only
>reason you're a gun rights advocate, is for the idea that one day you'll be at
>the right place, at the right time. Some creep is going to be in the middle of
>committing some crime, such that will justify you popping him off. Dead.
http://www.wedgwoodbc.org/riseintl/index.html
Want to e-mail their pastor and talk shit about what happened there?
Hint - On Wednesday evening, September 15, 1999, a deranged man went
on a shooting spree killing eight and injuring seven inside of our
church.
(Their words)
Or how about e-mailing one of our state reps, Dr Suzzana Gratia-Hupp.
Talk shit to her about what happened to her and her parents.
(Hint - Luby's Resturant in Killeen, Texas)
Suzanna is recognized worldwide as one of the leading advocates for an
individual's right to carry a concealed weapon. In 1991, after leaving
her gun in her car in order to comply with the law, Suzanna watched
helplessly as both her parents, along with 21 others were gunned down
in a mass shooting at a local restaurant.
(From her online Bio)
http://www.house.state.tx.us/house/bios/dist54b.htm
> Now, this is usually just a phase that people go through, when initially
>purchasing a gun. Most people visualize themselves in that role. However, they
>also phase out of it.
>
> Number one, you're fear mongering. No one but with an actual NEED for
>recognition is going to broadcast they took a loaded gun with them to church,
>for crying out loud. Thus, you have to create a sense of fear in the society
>at large, to justify your actions.
>
> Number two, you blow things out of proportion. Waco and Ruby ridge were
>incidents, not standard government policy.
I didn't see anywhere in Jim's post that metioned Waco or Ruby Ridge.
Why would you bring it up? Talk about justifying fearmongering.
Meaning, the reason those incidents
>turned into tragedies, was the result of individual decisions. Period. There
>are intelligent people in government, and there are stupid. It's just that
>simple. It's well documented that the intelligent people were not listened to
>and the dimwits were calling the shots.
And those "dimwits" as you call them, are still running the show and
calling the shots.
> Grow up will ya?
Pot, meet kettle.
Shit happens. Bad shit happens to good people daily.
Children have a Pollyanna view of the world. Adults generally have
grown out of the Pollyanna stage and accept the fact that shit can
happen anywhere, any time.
Shea F. Kenny
Uh, huh. And I'll bet you e-mailed various people telling them what
your plans were. I doubt you kept it a positive secret. Now, let's say some
of those people you "noticed" in the crowd, knew that you were carrying. And
perhaps gave you a subtle clue, they were carrying as well. If that's the case,
one of two things here. I'll guess they were as dressed up as you were. Thus,
they could rely upon your greater confidence. Whether subversives hoping to
manipulate you, or cops hoping not to......
Personally, I could care less whether you carry a weapon to church or
not. However, I'm pretty sure most of the people inside, would preffer you
remain outside......... Where security guards belong during religious ceremony.
Guards aren't there to participate, for how could they when the spiritual purity
would have to compete with the idea of someone causing another injury.
You see Jim, you're pretty slick, but not slick enough. You don't know
the proper time and place, and that makes you a bigger risk.
Shea F. Kenny
(Rick Bowen) announced:
}Children have a Pollyanna view of the world. Adults generally have
}grown out of the Pollyanna stage and accept the fact that shit can
}happen anywhere, any time.
Well, what is your connection to this type of crime? What's all the
perfuffitude? I don't get it. Anyone accuse you of having manic tendencies?
Lastly, St. James cathedral isn't Wedgewood Baptist..... Again, Jim has taken
one incident and applied it to all other incidents, of even a remotely similar
nature.
I think ol Jim is an extremely dangerous individual, unless of course a
church official asked him to come to services armed and ready??????????????
Anyone give me odds on that one?
Rick Bowen
wrote:
>Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, rbo...@fastlane.net
>(Rick Bowen) announced:
>}Children have a Pollyanna view of the world. Adults generally have
>}grown out of the Pollyanna stage and accept the fact that shit can
>}happen anywhere, any time.
>
> Well, what is your connection to this type of crime?
Shit happens. Anywhere, anytime.
Rick Bowen
wrote:
>
> Uh, huh. And I'll bet you e-mailed various people telling them what
>your plans were. I doubt you kept it a positive secret. Now, let's say some
>of those people you "noticed" in the crowd, knew that you were carrying. And
>perhaps gave you a subtle clue, they were carrying as well. If that's the case,
>one of two things here. I'll guess they were as dressed up as you were. Thus,
>they could rely upon your greater confidence. Whether subversives hoping to
>manipulate you, or cops hoping not to......
>
> Personally, I could care less whether you carry a weapon to church or
>not. However, I'm pretty sure most of the people inside, would preffer you
>remain outside......... Where security guards belong during religious ceremony.
>Guards aren't there to participate, for how could they when the spiritual purity
>would have to compete with the idea of someone causing another injury.
Extremely weak attempt at trolling. Run back to Seattle, have another
crack at a WHO protest, and come back later when you've grown up.
> You see Jim, you're pretty slick, but not slick enough. You don't know
>the proper time and place, and that makes you a bigger risk.
>
>
Shea F. Kenny
(Rick Bowen) announced:
}wrote:
}
}>Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, rbo...@fastlane.net
}>(Rick Bowen) announced:
}>}Children have a Pollyanna view of the world. Adults generally have
}>}grown out of the Pollyanna stage and accept the fact that shit can
}>}happen anywhere, any time.
}>
}> Well, what is your connection to this type of crime?
}
}Shit happens. Anywhere, anytime.
Oooooooooooo. A threat huh? Ping! Nailed a nuthern.............
Shea F. Kenny
included with Jim's post and thought I'd include them in on it. This should be
very entertaining...... Uh, sure to be a riot? Courtesy of your esteemed
Mayor???????
Well, for anyone with sentiments like Jim's here's a sure fire way to go
about it. In fact, you'd better use this and only this method because there's
no doubt in my mind that if St. James officials found out who he really is,
they'd ban him from ever attending again, and possibly proffer criminal
tresspass charges..... Regular member of the church or not.
Now. Here's all you need to do. Contact the church authority. Tell
him/her of your concerns. And get ready for the reaction...
Firstly, if it's just you, he/she will probably and rather insistently
suggest the two of you need to kneel down and say not a few more prayers than
usual.
Secondly, if it's a small group of you, he/she will probably talk to
each of you individually, and figure out who the instigator of all this is.
That's what being a minister is all about. Searching another's soul and
finding the error of their ways. Mis-intentions or mis-understandings.
However, it could well be the minister after a great deal of discussion
agrees that several men should be in the congregation, armed and ready for
trouble. However, no one being the wiser but the minister and those men. Not
even their wives or children.
It's people like Jim who act upon their own authority, that make trouble
for true gun nuts. True gun nuts know how to act responsibly and don't make
decisions for others. If people like Jim don't feel safe in a cathedral or
church without a gun and others permission to carry that gun on their premises,
perhaps they should all stay home.
Not one of those gun slingers had anyone's permission to carry a gun on
their premises.
Rick Bowen
wrote:
>Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, rbo...@fastlane.net
>(Rick Bowen) announced:
>}On Sun, 26 Dec 1999 02:53:15 GMT, Shea F. Kenny <luna...@home.nut>
>}wrote:
>}
>}>Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, rbo...@fastlane.net
>}>(Rick Bowen) announced:
>}>}Children have a Pollyanna view of the world. Adults generally have
>}>}grown out of the Pollyanna stage and accept the fact that shit can
>}>}happen anywhere, any time.
>}>
>}> Well, what is your connection to this type of crime?
>}
>}Shit happens. Anywhere, anytime.
>
> Oooooooooooo. A threat huh? Ping! Nailed a nuthern.............
>
I don't know how you got a "threat" out of that.
I think you missed your meds.
Shea F. Kenny
(Rick Bowen) announced:
}
}I think you missed your meds.
Oh. Well, pardon me. I thought you meant that you intended me some sort
of harm, and were giving me the courtesy of a warning. I mean people that are
out to create paranoia, end up creating paranoia because they're the one's
intending to commit the crime....... You do realize you're attempting to create
a sense of paranoia, don't you?
Jim String
>On Sat, 25 Dec 1999 22:23:53 GMT, Shea F. Kenny <luna...@home.nut>
>wrote:
>>
>> Jim, one of these days you're just going to have to admit it. The only
>>reason you're a gun rights advocate, is for the idea that one day you'll be at
>>the right place, at the right time. Some creep is going to be in the middle of
>>committing some crime, such that will justify you popping him off. Dead.
>
>http://www.wedgwoodbc.org/riseintl/index.html
>
>Want to e-mail their pastor and talk shit about what happened there?
>
>Hint - On Wednesday evening, September 15, 1999, a deranged man went
>on a shooting spree killing eight and injuring seven inside of our
>church.
Thanks Rick, I didn't quite have the energy to explain why it's a
good idea to be armed at one's church.
>(Their words)
>
>Or how about e-mailing one of our state reps, Dr Suzzana Gratia-Hupp.
>
>Talk shit to her about what happened to her and her parents.
>
>(Hint - Luby's Resturant in Killeen, Texas)
>
>Suzanna is recognized worldwide as one of the leading advocates for an
>individual's right to carry a concealed weapon. In 1991, after leaving
>her gun in her car in order to comply with the law, Suzanna watched
>helplessly as both her parents, along with 21 others were gunned down
>in a mass shooting at a local restaurant.
>
>(From her online Bio)
>
>http://www.house.state.tx.us/house/bios/dist54b.htm
Also a good reference, I'm sure it's absolutely miserable to have people
die around you when you might have had the ability to do something about
it, like stop it.
>> Now, this is usually just a phase that people go through, when initially
>>purchasing a gun. Most people visualize themselves in that role. However, they
>>also phase out of it.
>>
>> Number one, you're fear mongering. No one but with an actual NEED for
>>recognition is going to broadcast they took a loaded gun with them to church,
>>for crying out loud. Thus, you have to create a sense of fear in the society
>>at large, to justify your actions.
>>
>> Number two, you blow things out of proportion. Waco and Ruby ridge were
>>incidents, not standard government policy.
>
>I didn't see anywhere in Jim's post that metioned Waco or Ruby Ridge.
>Why would you bring it up? Talk about justifying fearmongering.
I was wondering about the Waco and Ruby Ridge references myself, I fail to
understand the relevancy.
First of all, I'm not a new gun owner, I've been shooting something or other
since I was a kid. What _has_ changed in the last few years is the level of
gun grabbing and social engineering that is going on in society and especially
the media. _That's_ why I made a note of my carrying at church, I hope more
people will take responsibility for their own and their community's safety.
What's interesting is Shea's postulate that I'm fear mongering. What is there
possibly to fear from a decent law abiding citizen operating within his or
her Constitutional rights and legally carrying his sidearm in church? The idea
is not to create a sense of fear in the society at large, but rather in
criminals and terrorists, hopefully no one objects if those assholes are
scared shitless, that there's lots of regular citizens around willing and
able to shoot them? I use the term "regular" in the same sense that it was
used in the 2nd Amendment.
I suppose the reality is in the eye of the beholder, I am personally reassured
that people can and would carry their sidearms to church. I'd suggest that it's
probably even more important if you're a Jewish or a black Baptist church or
something. Maybe Shea is frightened by the idea of a decent citizen carrying
his sidearm in church but I fail to understand why. Only good can come of it.
>Meaning, the reason those incidents
>>turned into tragedies, was the result of individual decisions. Period. There
>>are intelligent people in government, and there are stupid. It's just that
>>simple. It's well documented that the intelligent people were not listened to
>>and the dimwits were calling the shots.
>
>And those "dimwits" as you call them, are still running the show and
>calling the shots.
Well, to be fair there _are_ good people in government. It's just that
the very nature of power and government tends toward evil. That's why
we have a Bill of Rights and that just having it isn't quite enough, the
BoR must be fought for every hour.
>> Grow up will ya?
>
>Pot, meet kettle.
>
>Shit happens. Bad shit happens to good people daily.
I've noticed.
>Children have a Pollyanna view of the world. Adults generally have
>grown out of the Pollyanna stage and accept the fact that shit can
>happen anywhere, any time.
Amen. The world is full of evil people. Fortunately there are more
decent people than bad people, at least in my calculation. Maybe we've
got a fighting chance.
Perhaps I didn't present my original post just right. I was jazzed
because I had the opportunity to go to cathedral and participate in
Midnight Mass of 1999. I hosed myself off (*chuckle*) and made myself
presentable, wore my best stuff, chose my tie carefully, combed my hair,
almost pressed my shirt correctly, wore the right socks and carried my
most finely engineered hardware, a well broken in .45ACP Sig P220 in
my new shoulder holster under my suit tailored specificly for that. I
shook a lot of hands and exchanged a lot of smiles. It was wonderful.
I also made it a point to tip my cab drivers quite excessively. It must
seriously bite to be out driving a cab on Christmas Eve and Christmas
morning.
Merry Christmas!
Best,
Jim
Shea F. Kenny
<luna...@home.nut> announced:
} Sorry for the re-post in sg, but I just noticed the nutcase group
}included with Jim's post and thought I'd include them in on it. This should be
}very entertaining...... Uh, sure to be a riot? Courtesy of your esteemed
}Mayor???????
Well miss Bowen....... Find a hole to crawl under????
Rick Bowen
wrote:
>Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, Shea F. Kenny
><luna...@home.nut> announced:
>} Sorry for the re-post in sg, but I just noticed the nutcase group
>}included with Jim's post and thought I'd include them in on it. This should be
>}very entertaining...... Uh, sure to be a riot? Courtesy of your esteemed
>}Mayor???????
>
> Well miss Bowen....... Find a hole to crawl under????
Depends. Which state is Jim in? Perfectly legal in Texas.
You were saying?
rbo...@fastlane.net
wrote:
>Rick Bowen wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 25 Dec 1999 22:23:53 GMT, Shea F. Kenny <luna...@home.nut>
>>wrote:
>>>
>>> Jim, one of these days you're just going to have to admit it. The only
>>>reason you're a gun rights advocate, is for the idea that one day you'll be at
>>>the right place, at the right time. Some creep is going to be in the middle of
>>>committing some crime, such that will justify you popping him off. Dead.
>>
>>http://www.wedgwoodbc.org/riseintl/index.html
>>
>>Want to e-mail their pastor and talk shit about what happened there?
>>
>>Hint - On Wednesday evening, September 15, 1999, a deranged man went
>>on a shooting spree killing eight and injuring seven inside of our
>>church.
>
>Thanks Rick, I didn't quite have the energy to explain why it's a
>good idea to be armed at one's church.
Da Nada. I'm at work till 6:00 am central time. Troll alert duty. :-)
Lou Boyd
>
> Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, rbo...@fastlane.net
> (Rick Bowen) announced:
> }I don't know how you got a "threat" out of that.
> }
> }I think you missed your meds.
>
> Oh. Well, pardon me. I thought you meant that you intended me some sort
> of harm, and were giving me the courtesy of a warning. I mean people that are
> out to create paranoia, end up creating paranoia because they're the one's
> a sense of paranoia, don't you?
Paranoia is a mental illness. I isn't the result of a law abiding person
mentioning that they carry a firearm. You didn't become paranoid
because of Jim's statement, but you might have had a paranoid reaction.
--
Lou Boyd
Laurie-Ann Curry
the trollmaster, rbo...@fastlane.net (Rick Bowen) announced:
Hey Rick, yer movin up in the world. Trollmaster, has a nice ring to
it, I like it rolls off the tounge so easy trrooollllmmaster. Well
yo had better git with it and do something about these hoards of yours
before Miradus and his elite killfile crew start the coverage charge
thing. I mean really now.........*WEG*
LA who is getting some interesting visions of "The Trollmaster"
rbo...@fastlane.net
<bo...@apt2.sao.arizona.edu> wrote:
>"Shea F. Kenny" wrote:
>>
>> Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, rbo...@fastlane.net
>> (Rick Bowen) announced:
>> }I don't know how you got a "threat" out of that.
>> }
>> }I think you missed your meds.
>>
>> Oh. Well, pardon me. I thought you meant that you intended me some sort
>> of harm, and were giving me the courtesy of a warning. I mean people that are
>> out to create paranoia, end up creating paranoia because they're the one's
>> intending to commit the crime....... You do realize you're attempting to create
>> a sense of paranoia, don't you?
>
>Paranoia is a mental illness. I isn't the result of a law abiding person
>mentioning that they carry a firearm. You didn't become paranoid
>because of Jim's statement, but you might have had a paranoid reaction.
I think he misspelled his ISP's name. luna...@home.nut
He added an "r" & an "h".
>--
>Lou Boyd
rbo...@fastlane.net
<sut...@bluemarble.net> wrote:
>Rick Bowen wrote:
>the trollmaster, rbo...@fastlane.net (Rick Bowen) announced:
>
>Hey Rick, yer movin up in the world. Trollmaster, has a nice ring to
>it, I like it rolls off the tounge so easy trrooollllmmaster. Well
>yo had better git with it and do something about these hoards of yours
>before Miradus and his elite killfile crew start the coverage charge
>thing. I mean really now.........*WEG*
>
>LA who is getting some interesting visions of "The Trollmaster"
*********************
I am honored.
Max Masters!!!
Jim String wrote:
snip
> I knew it was personally risky for me to go anywhere
> near a large crowd
snip
why is it risky for you to go anywhere near a large crowd?
Gunner
>Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, rbo...@fastlane.net
>(Rick Bowen) announced:
>}Children have a Pollyanna view of the world. Adults generally have
>}grown out of the Pollyanna stage and accept the fact that shit can
>}happen anywhere, any time.
>
> Well, what is your connection to this type of crime? What's all the
>perfuffitude? I don't get it. Anyone accuse you of having manic tendencies?
>Lastly, St. James cathedral isn't Wedgewood Baptist..... Again, Jim has taken
>one incident and applied it to all other incidents, of even a remotely similar
>nature.
>
> I think ol Jim is an extremely dangerous individual, unless of course a
>church official asked him to come to services armed and ready??????????????
>
> Anyone give me odds on that one?
I'll make odds that Jim is a safer risk with a lethal weapon than you
are with a box cutter.
Under your rock, Troll.
Gunner
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write
a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort
the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone,
solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program
a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
gallantly. Specialization is for insects." Robert Heinlein
Gunner
>(Rick Bowen) announced:
>}I don't know how you got a "threat" out of that.
>}
>}I think you missed your meds.
>
> Oh. Well, pardon me. I thought you meant that you intended me some sort
>of harm, and were giving me the courtesy of a warning. I mean people that are
>out to create paranoia, end up creating paranoia because they're the one's
>intending to commit the crime....... You do realize you're attempting to create
>a sense of paranoia, don't you?
Hey Rick, this one is off his meds again. Don't even bother to chat
him up. He is here strictly to raise hate and discontent. Not a
worthwhile thought in his tiny lil pea brain.
How he got into misc.survivalism from seattle.general is probably good
for a laugh, or at least a long talk with his therapist.
Gunner
> It's people like Jim who act upon their own authority, that make trouble
>for true gun nuts. True gun nuts know how to act responsibly and don't make
>decisions for others. If people like Jim don't feel safe in a cathedral or
>church without a gun and others permission to carry that gun on their premises,
>perhaps they should all stay home.
>
> Not one of those gun slingers had anyone's permission to carry a gun on
>their premises.
>
Its called a CCW, CHL, etc etc. Concealed Carry License. The various
states issue them. To people of good standing, generally after passing
a background check, law and safety classes, and qualifying on a live
fire range.
And your point is? Jim obviously takes his CCW rather seriously, as
do I (ever figure out the hoops a fella has to jump through in
California to get a CCW?)
Hummm I take it you do not have a CCW? Unable to get one? Can't pass
the psych test? I'm not terribly surprised.....
My CCW can be considered a document from the State, that I am of good
charecter, proven to be law abiding, with a clean background, one of
the "good guys", safe and sane.
Lets see any document that can claim the same about you.....
BTW, Ive been CCW legally for 19yrs now. Have I shot anyone that
didn't need it? Nope. If I had, they wouldnt keep renewing it.
Have I carried every day? Yup. Has it saved my life? Yup. 5 times its
kept me from harm.
Would I carry to church? Yup.
Jim String
>
> Uh, huh. And I'll bet you e-mailed various people telling them what
>your plans were. I doubt you kept it a positive secret. Now, let's say some
>of those people you "noticed" in the crowd, knew that you were carrying. And
>perhaps gave you a subtle clue, they were carrying as well. If that's the case,
>one of two things here. I'll guess they were as dressed up as you were. Thus,
>they could rely upon your greater confidence. Whether subversives hoping to
>manipulate you, or cops hoping not to......
>
> Personally, I could care less whether you carry a weapon to church or
>not. However, I'm pretty sure most of the people inside, would preffer you
>remain outside......... Where security guards belong during religious ceremony.
>Guards aren't there to participate, for how could they when the spiritual purity
>would have to compete with the idea of someone causing another injury.
>
>the proper time and place, and that makes you a bigger risk.
Huh? What the hell are you talking about? That's nutsoid stuff if I've ever
seen it.
Other than the Mass which was my main objective to see and hear, my only
other sideline interest was the rather fine ladies in evidence and even that
didn't even cross my mind until I started seeing 'em. Especially that fine
alto, heh, sopranos get all the attention, noisy shrill beasts that they...
urk, gulp, trying to be nice this season.
Skulking around, co-conspirators, cops, subversives, nefarious email groups,
wow Shea, you need to get a life. (Well, actually _I_ need to get a life too,
but not nearly as badly)
So what if there were some cops and security guards around? KIRO news was
there too, though they thankfully kept a low profile. I would have gotten
a kick out of seeing Meegan Black though. There were a number of people
running around with earphones and mikes, church folks though, that was
obvious. Mostly concerned with closing the doors and keeping people from
freezing their asses off, then getting the priests to the right points
to give communion and bleed off the crowd so things didn't get all jammed
up at the doors.
Very well done I must say. I did spot some folks who were behaving like
city cops and Feds, they have that sort of awkward demeanor. No one
gave me a second glance, but what the heck, I went for the Mass and not
the rather fine looking ladies in attendence. Besides, I had company.
Shea, you gotta get out more.
Best,
Jim
Jim String
>>}I don't know how you got a "threat" out of that.
>>}
>>}I think you missed your meds.
>>
>> Oh. Well, pardon me. I thought you meant that you intended me some sort
>>of harm, and were giving me the courtesy of a warning. I mean people that are
>>out to create paranoia, end up creating paranoia because they're the one's
>>intending to commit the crime....... You do realize you're attempting to create
>>a sense of paranoia, don't you?
>
>Hey Rick, this one is off his meds again. Don't even bother to chat
>him up. He is here strictly to raise hate and discontent. Not a
>worthwhile thought in his tiny lil pea brain.
>How he got into misc.survivalism from seattle.general is probably good
>for a laugh, or at least a long talk with his therapist.
It's all my fault, I crossposted.
Hey Gunner, if you see my brain laying around somewhere could you
try to return it to me? Thanx, might need it next week...
Best,
Jim
Jim String
Generally speaking it's probably not all that risky but Seattle
is one of those cities that sort of have the attention of terrorists,
like NYC, DC, Chicago or LA. It's just one of those common sense
policy decisions like looking both ways before you cross the street,
wearing clean socks and avoiding large crowds.
Crowds are risky to one's well being, after WTO you ought to know
that.
Best,
Jim
Bill & Pat Velek
snipped comments/criticism re carrying in a church
>
> You see Jim, you're pretty slick, but not slick enough. You don't know
> the proper time and place, and that makes you a bigger risk.
What is it with folks who think that it is somehow irreverant to carry
into a church? This reminds me of the recent hue and cry when my
wife's cousin, Steve Simon, who is a State Representative here in
Arkansas, introduced a bill last year to broaden the limits imposed
on concealed carry, including allowing the carrying into a church.
He received so much crap over that that it became apparent that the
bill wouldn't pass without amendment, so he removed the provision for
churches and salvaged what he could. Steve and his entire family are
very DEVOUT catholics, as are me and my family; I see nothing wrong or
inappropriate with carrying into a church -- not because I anticipate
any violence in church but rather for the same reasons that I've
already mentioned some time ago in another thread about carrying into
someone's home: a person could encounter trouble on the way to or
from church and need their gun at those times, and I'd just as soon
have that person keep the gun on their person as to have them make a
public display of removing it in the parking lot and locking it
somewhere in their car where it could be easily stolen by someone
who notices it all as they are passing by. Now, if a person who
_doesn't_ normally carry (shopping, restaurants, etc.) decides that
they want to go out of their way to take it to church, well ... I
think that that person is a bit strange, but again I don't really
see any irreverence toward God. I would think that God would be more
happy to see the person there than unhappy to see the gun there.
Bill Velek
Bill & Pat Velek
snip
> Lastly, St. James cathedral isn't Wedgewood Baptist.....
snip
Perhaps then it is even _more_ important for someone to carry into
St. James Cathedral, given all of the anti-catholic activities that
I read about in Catholic papers but never heard a damned word about
in the secular media. Yes, Catholics are discriminated against --
by the KKK; by fanatical fundamentalists who see the pope as the
anti-Christ and the Catholic Church as the whore of Babylon; by
the pro-abortion group because of the leadership role that the
Catholic church has always taken against abortion; by militant
homosexuals who even go so far as to throw condoms at people
during services because of the Catholic Church's unwavering stand
against homosexual acts; by feminists who are unhappy that the
Catholic Church will not ordain women as priests; etc.
Bill Velek
Bill & Pat Velek
>
> Sorry for the re-post in sg, but I just noticed the nutcase group
> included with Jim's post and thought I'd include them in on it.
snipped the rest of Shea's B.S.
Uhhh, I think you mean "cross"-posted to s.g., don't you? Anyway, I
just "UN"-cross-posted s.g. because we don't need a bunch of posts
flooding into this "survival" group arguing about the legitimacy of
guns.
Now, Shea, I don't really recall reading from you in the past, so I
gave you quite a bit of latitude until now, but time is very precious
as the clock runs down, so ... plonk!
Bill Velek
Jim String
<15E56E051E996CA8.D63472DC...@lp.airnews.net>,
Rick Bowen wrote:
>On Sun, 26 Dec 1999 04:40:14 GMT, Shea F. Kenny <luna...@home.nut>
>wrote:
>
>>Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, Shea F. Kenny
>><luna...@home.nut> announced:
>>} Sorry for the re-post in sg, but I just noticed the nutcase group
>>}included with Jim's post and thought I'd include them in on it. This should be
>>}very entertaining...... Uh, sure to be a riot? Courtesy of your esteemed
>>}Mayor???????
>>
>> Well miss Bowen....... Find a hole to crawl under????
>
>Depends. Which state is Jim in? Perfectly legal in Texas.
WA state. A highly underrated state, probably because full autos
are illegal. Other than that it's outstanding, better than most,
including Texas. (ack! didn't mean to set off an, er, *debate*)
I was amused at Shea's "nutcase group" reference. I can only
image the visions of whackos dancing in his head, never mind
that he probably couldn't speak intelligently about decent plastic
buckets, purifying water or how to deal with a toothache in a
pinch. Nevermind what we pack around in our pockets, briefcase
or daypack. I guess people don't understand that we're more
interested in stocking a decent first aid kit that can be packed
around anywhere than overthrowing our government. Ah well, whatcha
gonna do vs the lying media.
Best,
Jim
Rainman
refrained from saying more than...
> Yes, Catholics are discriminated against --
> by the KKK;
or trying to make Catholics look like victims of some dark forces.
> by fanatical fundamentalists who see the pope as the
> anti-Christ and the Catholic Church as the whore of Babylon;
It's an honor to be "discriminated against" by these morons.
OTOH, Babylon?
> by the pro-abortion group
That's a pejorative term; no one is "pro-abortion". A lot of people want
the choice available if that is the reasonable option for the situation
at the time. But there is no celebrating before, during, or after an
abortion; it is always a solemn event.... even if the pregnancy is
dangerous, or the fetus is deformed, or if rape/incest are involved.
> because of the leadership role that the
> Catholic church has always taken against abortion;
Now that's interesting. Can you name one incident in which there has
been violence perpetrated by the people who want to preserve their right
to make a choice? Of course not. Can you name one incident in which the
anti-abortion forces (or individuals) have become violent? How about
thousands of incidents of destruction of property, personal harm
(including murder). PS: don't bore us with the argument that since
abortion is murder, violence is justified. People who claim that show
their ignorance every time they use it as an excuse.
I'm not saying that all of the violent anti-abortionists are
Catholics, or that the Church encourages or condones violence. But ALL of
the violence and all of the misleading rhetoric in this public
discussion of private matters has come from the anti-abortion army. And
many of that group, as you said, are Catholic.
--
Rain"what do you mean, 'savant'"man
"No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public"
-- H.L. Mencken
Lou Boyd
>
> Perhaps then it is even _more_ important for someone to carry into
> St. James Cathedral, given all of the anti-catholic activities that
> I read about in Catholic papers but never heard a damned word about
> in the secular media. Yes, Catholics are discriminated against --
> by the KKK; by fanatical fundamentalists who see the pope as the
> anti-Christ and the Catholic Church as the whore of Babylon; by
> the pro-abortion group because of the leadership role that the
> Catholic church has always taken against abortion; by militant
> homosexuals who even go so far as to throw condoms at people
> during services because of the Catholic Church's unwavering stand
> against homosexual acts; by feminists who are unhappy that the
> Catholic Church will not ordain women as priests; etc.
At least in my state (AZ) a church is treated legally like any other non
government corporation as far as firearms are concerned. The
proprietor has the right to post a "no firearms allowed" sign if they
wish. Anyone violating that is then breaking the law, but if there is
no sign CCW is legal with state permit and open carry is legal without a
permit. I've not seen any churches with such a sign. It the
pastor/minister/rabbi didn't want his congregation to carry he could
easily prevent it by posting a sign at the entrance. Preventing someone
who wanted harm the congregation from bringing in a firearm in spite of
the law would require a setup like airport security. Most church
officials are smart enough to understand that and don't restrict CCW or
open carry and don't worry about it.
--
Lou Boyd
Rainman
bo...@apt2.sao.arizona.edu wisely refrained from saying more than...
> I've not seen any churches with such a sign. It the
> pastor/minister/rabbi didn't want his congregation to carry he could
> easily prevent it by posting a sign at the entrance. Preventing someone
> who wanted harm the congregation from bringing in a firearm in spite of
> the law would require a setup like airport security. Most church
> officials are smart enough to understand that and don't restrict CCW or
> open carry and don't worry about it.
I wonder how many church officials in the US even consider the
possibility that anyone would feel compelled to carry a weapon into a
sanctuary of God? I think that most would be stunned and offended at the
thought.
After all, trouble usually first finds those who are looking for it.
Carrying a gun = looking for trouble.
Are you weapons concealers disappointed when you don't get a chance to
pull out your guns and shoot someone?
Don't tell us that you think that you're preventing trouble by carrying a
weapon. That would be like my saying that I keep elephants away when I
have on my magic underwear. It works! I haven't been trampled by
elephants in years.
Laurie-Ann Curry
inappropriate with carrying into a church -- not because I anticipate
any violence in church but rather for the same reasons that I've
already mentioned some time ago in another thread about carrying into
someone's home: a person could encounter trouble on the way to or
from church and need their gun at those times,"
Our church is predominatly black and last year a guy came in with a gun
who was on a bender about white supremacy and that all zebra couples
should die along with the pastor. Those of us who were white couples
should die because we were condoning such blasphemy and sitting under a
black pastor. We were lucky, no shots were fired and the guy was
subdued before any damage was done. You can bet that those who have cw
carry and will continue to do so. A whole lot of folks could have ended
up very dead. Get over the problem of of folks packing at church Shea.
Any where there is a group of people there is the potential for trouble
and the whole gist of being a survivalist is to be prepared, no matter
where you are.
LA
Rainman
So the guy was subdued by the overwhelming fire power of all those CWs
who were carrying in church?
Or was he subdued using some other method?
Has the preacher hung a sign encouraging pistol-packing parishioners?
I'm sure glad to have so many people prepared to turn every situation
into a bloodbath, if need be. And these situations happen every day.
Heck, I've been rescued from dangerous criminals five or six times this
morning, and I haven't even had breakfast yet.
--
Rain"scared more by do-gooders with guns"man
Karl Kleinpaste
> I wonder how many church officials in the US even consider the
> possibility that anyone would feel compelled to carry a weapon into a
> sanctuary of God? I think that most would be stunned and offended at the
> thought.
I think you shouldn't project your own irrational fears onto others.
And I doubt God inhabits man-made buildings.
> After all, trouble usually first finds those who are looking for it.
> Carrying a gun = looking for trouble.
The first sentence is a mindless aphorism and platitude which lacks
any hard data.
As to the second, hardly so. Carrying represents a willingness to
help *stop* trouble, *if* it should present itself, placing oneself at
mortal risk in the process.
> Are you weapons concealers disappointed when you don't get a chance to
> pull out your guns and shoot someone?
I have carried for years, and I'm practically ecstatic that I've never
faced a sufficient emergency to warrant drawing my weapons. But I
recognize the ongoing possibility, which is why I continue to carry.
> Don't tell us that you think that you're preventing trouble by carrying a
> weapon. That would be like my saying that I keep elephants away when I
> have on my magic underwear. It works! I haven't been trampled by
> elephants in years.
There is no magic involved, and it has nothing to do with your
(frankly very weird) fantasies. It has nothing to do with
*preventing* trouble. It has to do with a sane, reasoned, adult view
of the world, which sees malevolent violence as a real possibility,
and therefore being prepared to *respond* to trouble.
Tim May
<ka...@justresearch.com> wrote:
> Rainman <f...@nospam.iname.com> writes:
> > I wonder how many church officials in the US even consider the
> > possibility that anyone would feel compelled to carry a weapon into a
> > sanctuary of God? I think that most would be stunned and offended at the
> > thought.
>
> I think you shouldn't project your own irrational fears onto others.
> And I doubt God inhabits man-made buildings.
>
> > After all, trouble usually first finds those who are looking for it.
> > Carrying a gun = looking for trouble.
>
> The first sentence is a mindless aphorism and platitude which lacks
> any hard data.
>
> As to the second, hardly so. Carrying represents a willingness to
> help *stop* trouble, *if* it should present itself, placing oneself at
> mortal risk in the process.
Gunmen have gone into churches, mosques, and synagogues to kill
worshippers. Happens frequently in the Middle East. Happened recently in
Fort Worth.
Inasmuch as no god appeared to strike down the gunmen with bolts of
lightning or laser beams, it's up to living humans to defend themselves
and others.
Gods help those who help themselves.
--Tim May
--
They pulled the pin...now we're all just waiting
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
Lou Boyd
> Don't tell us that you think that you're preventing trouble by carrying a
> weapon. That would be like my saying that I keep elephants away when I
> have on my magic underwear. It works! I haven't been trampled by
> elephants in years.
No, I don't think I'm preventing trouble. I do think I'm reducing the
probability of injury to myself and innocent people around me.
The physics concerning ballistics is slightly better understood than the
magic of your underwear. But if you haven't been attacked by elephants
it's probably because of the magic odor of those magic underwear.
--
Lou Boyd
Lou Boyd
> Gunmen have gone into churches, mosques, and synagogues to kill
> worshippers. Happens frequently in the Middle East. Happened recently in
> Fort Worth.
>
> Inasmuch as no god appeared to strike down the gunmen with bolts of
> lightning or laser beams, it's up to living humans to defend themselves
> and others.
God hasn't done his own smiting since the Arc of the Covenant was lost.
That's why God provides Colt's, S&W's, Sigs, and Glocks to those who
believe in him. Satan provided the same to the less devout just to keep
things even. The side which stays ahead is the one with the most
followers.
--
Lou Boyd
Cynara
: Rainman <f...@nospam.iname.com> writes:
: > After all, trouble usually first finds those who are looking for it.
: > Carrying a gun = looking for trouble.
: The first sentence is a mindless aphorism and platitude which lacks
: any hard data.
: As to the second, hardly so. Carrying represents a willingness to
: help *stop* trouble, *if* it should present itself, placing oneself at
: mortal risk in the process.
As a parent who cannot always be with her young son, I am
grateful that there are responsible adults who carry concealed
and who might one day be in a position to choose to defend him.
I wish there were more of these people, and I wish they'd more
often get the respect they deserve.
Cynara
MarkypieP
>From: Rainman f32@.iname.com
>Carrying a gun = looking for trouble.
All cops and soldiers must be troublemakers to you.
>Are you weapons concealers disappointed when you don't get a chance to
>pull out your guns and shoot someone?
>
Yepper, and I keep getting disappointed on a daily basis. Hope springs eternal
though, so I'm going to keep on carrying.
>Don't tell us that you think that you're preventing trouble by carrying a
>weapon.
I don't need to do that. The statistics tell the story for me.
Have you got a sign on your house proclaiming that you and everyone inside are
totally disarmed. If you have the courage of your convictions, put one up:
Peter Hartikka
> Jim String wrote:
>
> snip
>
> > I knew it was personally risky for me to go anywhere
> > near a large crowd
>
> snip
>
> why is it risky for you to go anywhere near a large crowd?
Maybe he just doesn't want to catch the flu.
-Peter in Seattle, wondering how exactly a concealed firearm would
protect one from a bomb blast
Gunner
>
> Baloney. The only thing you found beautiful about that celebration was
>the fact you were posed as supreme protector of the congregation. Here. Let's
>do this wise guy....... How about you call up the church, privately, and inform
>them you were armed and ready to protect people from harm with a .45 caliber
>pistol.
Folks better wear your tinfoil hat, Ol Shea is out reading the hearts
and minds of men again... must be nice to be able to do that.
>
> My guess is they wouldn't like it one little bit. Particularly since you
>probably aren't a regular member, or one of any note. Thus, would ask that you
>never return.
Now he is speaking for the Vatican. Must be nice to be able to do
that.
>
> You didn't have permission to carry that weapon on their property.
>Period. That could well be grounds for revocation of your permit.
>
Not unless he carried and refused to stop carrying at that location.
> And therein lies the kicker. Jim String starts a Y2k uprising because
>he gets his permit pulled for irresponsible use.
>
> Had you the permission of the church authority I'd have no complaint,
>obviously.
>
> So, what gives you the right to carry upon private property without
>their permission? Did you call and ask if it was ok to carry guns during
>service? Or should they be left in the car?
Probably the same right that allows you to come in here, and start
pissing and moaning about things that are no business of yours.
>
> So, Jim. Again, it's people like you that end up screwing up the idea
>of gun rights, not me. Here, let's get a police opinion. Let's get St. James
>Cathedral's opinion.
>
Be sure to ask the Holy See while your out knocking on doors as well.
> And no, the burden is not upon me to gather such facts. Jim has
>admitted guilt. Any assumptions in regards to that guilt, are mine. I can and
>will make any I please, until proven otherwise.
There is no guilt for committing a legal and proper act. Unless your
fat and pig out on Ben & Jerrys
> And it's going to be a difficult case to prove. Even if St. James
>praises Jim for his actions, that in no way shape or form changes the fact Jim
>acted without permission. The other members likely had no idea that any but
>qualified law enforcement officers, if present, had weapons. And certainly had
>every hope, no wannabes.
Really... every hope... back to mindreading the entire congregation,
after the fact. Must be nice to be able to do that.
Sounds to me that you are a hoplophobe and it bugs the crap out of you
that folks around you may be packing, and you don't have a clue.
Well, let me clue you in Buckwheat..... folks all around you ARE
carrying lethal weapons, and generally without a permit. Knives, guns,
tire irons, poisons, acid all kinds of things. Every time you walk the
street, sit in a theater, go to the grocerystore. Folks all around you
are able to kill or horribly maime you in a split second. Spray acid
in your face, leaving you horribly disfigured.
Every time you go out, watch the people watching you. How many of them
want to do something ugly and horrible to you.... watch their eyes..if
they nod.. is it a greeting... or is it "yes... its him I'll burn or
gut like a trout. Its him Im gonna shoot 5 times and spew his guts all
over the floor and walls, while he screams and twitches and spasms and
begs for his mommy"
Watch their eyes.... its the eyes....
And there is nothing you can do.... your helpless
They want to do it to you.... your helpless
Have a good life... and watch the eyes...
Gunner
>Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, Gunner
><gun...@lightspeed.net> announced:
>}Hey Rick, this one is off his meds again. Don't even bother to chat
>}him up. He is here strictly to raise hate and discontent. Not a
>}worthwhile thought in his tiny lil pea brain.
>}How he got into misc.survivalism from seattle.general is probably good
>}for a laugh, or at least a long talk with his therapist.
>}
>}Gunner
>
> Hey Gunner, how 'bout the worthwhileness of someone who can't address
>the relevant issues? Like, permission of the church? Got any lil pea clues
>about that one, watermelon brain?
Sure oh Mighty pin dick! My church doesn't care if I carry or not.
Lots of folks there do. And your point is? You have some insiders
knowledge from the Vatican? Hows the Pope? Give him my regards.
Gunner
>}them kept out, they have to post a very specific sign stating
>}that. There is no "asking permission". There's a clue, water
>}brain.
>
> Different state and I can prove it's an un-constitutional law. Weapons
>signs on a church. Give me a break. These people have the right to worship IN
>PEACE. Ie, no reminders of the havoc and chaos of "normal society". It could
>be said to be defacing their church.
My church is mighty peaceful. I would expect that many go to church to
get help dealing with the rigors of "normal society". I can't think of
any whom take off their ill fitting shoes, leave their car keys at the
door, or leave their polyester at home.
Humm good point. No one should go to church but unless they are as the
Lord created them. nekked as a jay bird, with no makeup/stink
water/hair spray/hairdos. To worship the (insert Diety of your choice)
in anything but what you were created in, could be said to be defacing
the church.
>
> A MUCH better law would be one where it required all permit carriers, to
>GET PERMISSION OF PRIVATE PROPERTY OWNERS, before assuming they were welcome in
>those conditions. There we preserve the maximum degree of property rights and
>2M.
If a property owner wishes that a particular, and otherwise lawful
action not be done on their property, they have the responsibility to
post, not the other way around.
Such as:
"No Skateboards on Church Property",
"No loud farts or Yawns on Church Property"
"No screaming children on Church Property"
"No wearing Blue on Church Property"
"No Reebocks on Church Property"
"No pen knives, ball point pens or shoelaces on Church Property"
The list can go on and on.
You really are afraid of people arnt you.....
Gunner
>
> Next?
Gunner
Shea F. Kenny <luna...@home.nut> wrote:
>Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, Gunner
><gun...@lightspeed.net> announced:
>}Have I carried every day? Yup. Has it saved my life? Yup. 5 times its
>}kept me from harm.
>}Would I carry to church? Yup.
>
> First of all, you can take your insinuations about me, wrap them up in
>your permit and smooooooooooke them......... Secondly, you would neither attend
>for very long, nor be allowed to if you didn't have the church authoritie's
>permission to do so..... Right?
>
> Now. I don't like dimwits screwing up the concept of the second
>ammendment by thinking they can do as they please. There are rules here. Had
>he kept it to himself, there would be no controversy. He just had to brag about
>being a superhero. We'll all be lucky if someone at that church doesn't find
>out and demand an investigation.
>
> If there is, it's likely he could get his permit revolked. Or, called
>into question and put to a battery of psychological exams. "Who do you think
>you are here, Mr. String?" "I'll bet you have four foot piles of old Lone
>Ranger videos, don't you???????"
WhiteWolf
wrote:
jeez! when you put it that way - i think i'll stay home - & when i DO
go out - i'll wear DARK glasses - can't have you knowing what i'm
thinking..... or who i'm thinking it about or....... <gr>
WhiteWolf
>Well, let me clue you in Buckwheat..... folks all around you ARE
>carrying lethal weapons, and generally without a permit. Knives, guns,
>tire irons, poisons, acid all kinds of things. Every time you walk the
>street, sit in a theater, go to the grocerystore. Folks all around you
>are able to kill or horribly maime you in a split second. Spray acid
>in your face, leaving you horribly disfigured.
>Every time you go out, watch the people watching you. How many of them
>want to do something ugly and horrible to you.... watch their eyes..if
>they nod.. is it a greeting... or is it "yes... its him I'll burn or
>gut like a trout. Its him Im gonna shoot 5 times and spew his guts all
>over the floor and walls, while he screams and twitches and spasms and
>begs for his mommy"
>
>Watch their eyes.... its the eyes....
>
>And there is nothing you can do.... your helpless
>
>They want to do it to you.... your helpless
>
>
>Have a good life... and watch the eyes...
>
>
>
>
>Gunner
>
>
>
>
BarryC
> You didn't have permission to carry that weapon on their property.
> Period. That could well be grounds for revocation of your permit.
>
As best I recall, you don't need permission to carry concealled on
private property in Washingto state. If the property is posted no
firearms, you may not. If the owner asks you to leave, you must leave.
Enrique Pineda
>ever actually worn that shoulder holster in public, but I wanted to dress
>well for the occasion. I had a perfect tie for Christmas, though my shirt
>could have used a bit more ironing.
H. McDaniel
> Are you weapons concealers disappointed when you don't get a chance to
> pull out your guns and shoot someone?
Only when I hear about killers like those punks who shot up Columbine
High School and think to myself, if I were there I might have been able
to help save some lives. Otherwise no. 99.9% of the jerks out there simply
aren't worth shooting. Too much paper work is involved.
> Don't tell us that you think that you're preventing trouble by carrying a
> weapon. That would be like my saying that I keep elephants away when I
> have on my magic underwear. It works! I haven't been trampled by
> elephants in years.
Why does someone carrying a weapon bother you so much then if it is no
different than wearing a pair of Superman undies?
-McDaniel
H. McDaniel
> Indeed. However, there are a lot of people out there who would have been
> influenced by this kind of idealism. All I'm trying to get across is the idea
> that you MUST account to some authority, when acting upon the behalf of others.
> You MUST not act alone.
DUH. This is why you're such a pathetic troll. You assume that Jim is a
Hollywood
Cowboy who would shoot everyone he suspects of possibly being up to something
and then walk away, insisting on his invulnerability to the investigation
process. Sounds like you stuffed your Christmas turkey with acid and watched
Pulp Fiction one too many times.
> Jim String did not, does not, never will, and never should, hold any
> such responsibility.
Hmm? A minute ago you said it should be up to the church. Just who are you to
judge him or anybody else?
-McDaniel
Shea F. Kenny
}Other than the Mass which was my main objective to see and hear, my only
}other sideline interest was the rather fine ladies in evidence and even that
}didn't even cross my mind until I started seeing 'em. Especially that fine
}alto, heh, sopranos get all the attention, noisy shrill beasts that they...
}urk, gulp, trying to be nice this season.
Baloney. The only thing you found beautiful about that celebration was
the fact you were posed as supreme protector of the congregation. Here. Let's
do this wise guy....... How about you call up the church, privately, and inform
them you were armed and ready to protect people from harm with a .45 caliber
pistol.
My guess is they wouldn't like it one little bit. Particularly since you
probably aren't a regular member, or one of any note. Thus, would ask that you
never return.
You didn't have permission to carry that weapon on their property.
Period. That could well be grounds for revocation of your permit.
And therein lies the kicker. Jim String starts a Y2k uprising because
he gets his permit pulled for irresponsible use.
Had you the permission of the church authority I'd have no complaint,
obviously.
So, what gives you the right to carry upon private property without
their permission? Did you call and ask if it was ok to carry guns during
service? Or should they be left in the car?
So, Jim. Again, it's people like you that end up screwing up the idea
of gun rights, not me. Here, let's get a police opinion. Let's get St. James
Cathedral's opinion.
And no, the burden is not upon me to gather such facts. Jim has
admitted guilt. Any assumptions in regards to that guilt, are mine. I can and
will make any I please, until proven otherwise.
And it's going to be a difficult case to prove. Even if St. James
praises Jim for his actions, that in no way shape or form changes the fact Jim
acted without permission. The other members likely had no idea that any but
qualified law enforcement officers, if present, had weapons. And certainly had
every hope, no wannabes.
--
Shea F. Kenny (Moonbear, Lunar Development Corp)
World elevator wrestling champion
This has been, Lunar Network News
ICQ# 31930333
Shea F. Kenny
<ve...@cyberback.com> announced:
}"Shea F. Kenny" wrote:
}
}snipped comments/criticism re carrying in a church
}>
}> You see Jim, you're pretty slick, but not slick enough. You don't know
}> the proper time and place, and that makes you a bigger risk.
}
}What is it with folks who think that it is somehow irreverant to carry
}into a church?
The statement had more to do with permission from THE PROPERTY OWNERS,
hon..... Thanks for playing.
Shea F. Kenny
<sut...@bluemarble.net> announced:
}Our church is predominatly black and last year a guy came in with a gun
}who was on a bender about white supremacy and that all zebra couples
}should die along with the pastor. Those of us who were white couples
}should die because we were condoning such blasphemy and sitting under a
}black pastor. We were lucky, no shots were fired and the guy was
}subdued before any damage was done. You can bet that those who have cw
}carry and will continue to do so. A whole lot of folks could have ended
}up very dead. Get over the problem of of folks packing at church Shea.
}Any where there is a group of people there is the potential for trouble
}and the whole gist of being a survivalist is to be prepared, no matter
}where you are.
Yes, and that's what I've said as well. I recognized their situation,
as it were. However, Mr. String does not have the right to carry upon private
property, where I can POSITIVELY GUARANTEE YOU, he'd have been denied entry if
found with a weapon.
And here's another thought to ponder. Did Jim WANT to be arrested? Was
Jim hoping to be hauled off to jail and start a violent protest?
Uhhhhhhhhhhh.......... Yeah! I can play paranoid too.....
Shea F. Kenny
<gun...@lightspeed.net> announced:
}Hey Rick, this one is off his meds again. Don't even bother to chat
}him up. He is here strictly to raise hate and discontent. Not a
}worthwhile thought in his tiny lil pea brain.
}How he got into misc.survivalism from seattle.general is probably good
}for a laugh, or at least a long talk with his therapist.
}
}Gunner
Hey Gunner, how 'bout the worthwhileness of someone who can't address
the relevant issues? Like, permission of the church? Got any lil pea clues
about that one, watermelon brain?
Shea F. Kenny
<rstu...@calwest.net> announced:
}> I think ol Jim is an extremely dangerous individual, unless of course a
}>church official asked him to come to services armed and ready??????????????
}
}Can you explain the logic you used to arrive at that
}conclusion?
Sure. Ever hear of profiling? Now. The church is private property.
Right? Thus, you need the owners permission. Right? If you do things you
don't have permission to do, that constitutes a violation of their rights, and
oftentimes is a crime. Right? Thus, since Jim operates upon thoughtless
impulses, ie not getting the proper permission, Jim might do just about anything
that he's no right or permission to do. Now, what if someone did start
shooting? And Jim starts shooting? And someone thinks that Jim is in cahoots
with the first shooter, in the panic of the moment, and shoots Jim? This is a
LARGE crowd. Things happen very quickly and often times people who are
un-trained in those conditions, do the wrong things.
}
}> Anyone give me odds on that one?
}
}The odds are both slim and totally beside whatever point you
}were trying to make.
He doesn't need the Church authority's permission?? Huh?
}
}A person carrying a gun is not a dangerous individual unless
}he plans on shooting someone with that gun. And in an
}emergency, such a "dangerous individual" is exactly whom I
}would hope to have nearby.
That's you. There were a few thousand who probably felt a little
differently. Had Jim BOTHERED to get permission, I'd not have a problem.
However, this is an extremely liberal church Jim decided to go to. I doubt very
much they'd have in a MILLION years allowed him anywhere near the place. They'd
have setup metal detectors to haul him off.
I don't like gun rights. Period.
Being abused, that is. ;=)
Next?
Shea F. Kenny
<gun...@lightspeed.net> announced:
}I'll make odds that Jim is a safer risk with a lethal weapon than you
}are with a box cutter.
Which of course is, irrelevant? Permission is the key question here.
Sorry. Like to try again pea shooter? I mean gunner?
Shea F. Kenny
<ve...@cyberback.com> announced:
}St. James Cathedral, given all of the anti-catholic activities that
}I read about in Catholic papers but never heard a damned word about
}in the secular media.
Irrelevant. Permission. Did he have permission? That is the question.
Can you people read.
(I'm replying to all of these to see which one admits they were wrong
first. If any. Or, how long it takes.......)
Shea F. Kenny
<bo...@apt2.sao.arizona.edu> announced:
}At least in my state (AZ) a church is treated legally like any other non
}government corporation as far as firearms are concerned. The
}proprietor has the right to post a "no firearms allowed" sign if they
}wish. Anyone violating that is then breaking the law, but if there is
}no sign CCW is legal with state permit and open carry is legal without a
}permit. I've not seen any churches with such a sign. It the
}pastor/minister/rabbi didn't want his congregation to carry he could
}easily prevent it by posting a sign at the entrance. Preventing someone
}who wanted harm the congregation from bringing in a firearm in spite of
}the law would require a setup like airport security. Most church
}officials are smart enough to understand that and don't restrict CCW or
}open carry and don't worry about it.
I don't know what the law is here, but I doubt Jim had any idea at the
time. He just figured he had a right to do as he pleased. Secondly, it doesn't
matter. If he's so knowledgeable about St. James, he knows damned good and
well he'd have been told not to come. They'd arrainged plent of security of
their own......
Shea F. Kenny
<f...@nospam.iname.com> announced:
}I wonder how many church officials in the US even consider the
}possibility that anyone would feel compelled to carry a weapon into a
}sanctuary of God? I think that most would be stunned and offended at the
}thought.
That's not the issue. The issue is permission. EVERYONE has the right
to self defense, even clergy. If they want people to carry weapons, that's
their business. I demand organization, for public protection. I want the
proper procedures in place, such that screwball superheros like Jim are culled
from the get go.
rbo...@fastlane.net
<luna...@home.nut> wrote:
>Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, Gunner
><gun...@lightspeed.net> announced:
>}Hey Rick, this one is off his meds again. Don't even bother to chat
>}him up. He is here strictly to raise hate and discontent. Not a
>}worthwhile thought in his tiny lil pea brain.
>}How he got into misc.survivalism from seattle.general is probably good
>}for a laugh, or at least a long talk with his therapist.
>}
>}Gunner
>
> Hey Gunner, how 'bout the worthwhileness of someone who can't address
>the relevant issues? Like, permission of the church? Got any lil pea clues
>about that one, watermelon brain?
Again, depends on what state he was in. In Texas, if they want
them kept out, they have to post a very specific sign stating
that. There is no "asking permission". There's a clue, water
brain.
>
>--
>Shea F. Kenny (Moonbear, Lunar Development Corp)
>World elevator wrestling champion
>This has been, Lunar Network News
>ICQ# 31930333
Rick Bowen
TSRA Life Member
NRA Member
Used to, parents would try to
worldproof their children.
Now, they would rather shirk their
responsibility and try to childproof
the world.
--Author Unknown--
Shea F. Kenny
<gun...@lightspeed.net> announced:
}kept me from harm.
}Would I carry to church? Yup.
First of all, you can take your insinuations about me, wrap them up in
your permit and smooooooooooke them......... Secondly, you would neither attend
for very long, nor be allowed to if you didn't have the church authoritie's
permission to do so..... Right?
Now. I don't like dimwits screwing up the concept of the second
ammendment by thinking they can do as they please. There are rules here. Had
he kept it to himself, there would be no controversy. He just had to brag about
being a superhero. We'll all be lucky if someone at that church doesn't find
out and demand an investigation.
If there is, it's likely he could get his permit revolked. Or, called
into question and put to a battery of psychological exams. "Who do you think
you are here, Mr. String?" "I'll bet you have four foot piles of old Lone
Ranger videos, don't you???????"
Shea F. Kenny
(rbo...@fastlane.net) announced:
}Again, depends on what state he was in. In Texas, if they want
}them kept out, they have to post a very specific sign stating
}that. There is no "asking permission". There's a clue, water
}brain.
Different state and I can prove it's an un-constitutional law. Weapons
signs on a church. Give me a break. These people have the right to worship IN
PEACE. Ie, no reminders of the havoc and chaos of "normal society". It could
be said to be defacing their church.
A MUCH better law would be one where it required all permit carriers, to
GET PERMISSION OF PRIVATE PROPERTY OWNERS, before assuming they were welcome in
those conditions. There we preserve the maximum degree of property rights and
2M.
Next?
Lou Boyd
>
> Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, Gunner
> <gun...@lightspeed.net> announced:
> }Hey Rick, this one is off his meds again. Don't even bother to chat
> }him up. He is here strictly to raise hate and discontent. Not a
> }worthwhile thought in his tiny lil pea brain.
> }How he got into misc.survivalism from seattle.general is probably good
> }for a laugh, or at least a long talk with his therapist.
> }
> }Gunner
>
> Hey Gunner, how 'bout the worthwhileness of someone who can't address
> the relevant issues? Like, permission of the church? Got any lil pea clues
> about that one, watermelon brain?
>
> Shea F. Kenny (Moonbear, Lunar Development Corp)
> World elevator wrestling champion
> This has been, Lunar Network News
> ICQ# 31930333
"World elevator wrestling champion" hardly sounds like U.S. Olympic
sanctioned event. Sounds more like a mugging or rape in a high rise
office building. Why do many of us carry? Because one never knows
when some nutcase, with or without a firearm, will try to injure or rob
someone. I carry a pistol where ever I go. Sometimes concealed,
sometime open when it's appropriate. Where it its forbidden by law or
posted by the property owner I simply don't go to that establishment.
About the only time I don't carry is when voting as that is prohibited
by state law.
If a church doesn't want people to carry they need only post it.
Otherwise the law abiding and gentle folk who carry make the assumption
it's ok. None of my friends or neighbors would consider it any kind of
a sin or offense against God to carry a firearms into a church. In my
community a holstered firearm is not considered any kind of a threat.
Carrying a cellphone is considered much more of an offense if it's
turned on. That could disrupt services. A gun won't. Anyone wanting to
make trouble won't care if the premises is posted and certainly won't
ask permission. It's not like priests and ministers aren't aware that
many of their flock carry firearms. Did it ever occur to you that most
churches would rather not lose part of the 20 to 30 percent of their
congregation (not counting children) who carry all the time by asking
them not to?
--
Lou Boyd
Walter Daniels
<ve...@cyberback.com> wrote:
>"Shea F. Kenny" wrote:
>
>snip
>> Lastly, St. James cathedral isn't Wedgewood Baptist.....
>snip
>Perhaps then it is even _more_ important for someone to carry into
>St. James Cathedral, given all of the anti-catholic activities that
>I read about in Catholic papers but never heard a damned word about
>in the secular media.
Not to mention the fact that a Catholic Church belongs to the
_parishioners_. It is held in trust for us, by the
Diocese/Archdiocese, and _all_ parishioners have a say. It is not up
to any parishioner, or pastor to say "yes or no."
>Bill Velek
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Walter Daniels FBN Graphics prints specialties in small quantities at
reasonable prices. Express your interests with a Custom printed T-shirt,
mug, mousepad, or carry bag. We cheerfully print in quantities as small
as one. For information contact: fbng...@indy.net
http://www.digiserve.com/fbngraphics/
Enter the bi-monthly design survey, and win a free mug.
Walter Daniels
wrote:
>In article <386640E4...@apt2.sao.arizona.edu>,
>bo...@apt2.sao.arizona.edu wisely refrained from saying more than...
>> I've not seen any churches with such a sign. It the
>> pastor/minister/rabbi didn't want his congregation to carry he could
>> easily prevent it by posting a sign at the entrance. Preventing someone
>> who wanted harm the congregation from bringing in a firearm in spite of
>> the law would require a setup like airport security. Most church
>> officials are smart enough to understand that and don't restrict CCW or
>> open carry and don't worry about it.
>I wonder how many church officials in the US even consider the
>possibility that anyone would feel compelled to carry a weapon into a
>sanctuary of God? I think that most would be stunned and offended at the
>thought.
>After all, trouble usually first finds those who are looking for it.
>Carrying a gun = looking for trouble.
So, carrying a "first aid kit," means I am out "looking for an
accident?" Carrying a good quality tool kit, means I am "looking for a
chance to repair a car?" Carrying a short pry bar, means I am looking
for a house to break into? You really need to go back and retake
"Logic 101: Reasoning from cause to effect."
>
>-- Rain"what do you mean, 'savant'"man
>"No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public"
>-- H.L. Mencken
Lou Boyd
>
> Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, Lou Boyd
> <bo...@apt2.sao.arizona.edu> announced:
> }At least in my state (AZ) a church is treated legally like any other non
> }government corporation as far as firearms are concerned. The
> }proprietor has the right to post a "no firearms allowed" sign if they
> }wish. Anyone violating that is then breaking the law, but if there is
> }no sign CCW is legal with state permit and open carry is legal without a
> }pastor/minister/rabbi didn't want his congregation to carry he could
> }easily prevent it by posting a sign at the entrance. Preventing someone
> }who wanted harm the congregation from bringing in a firearm in spite of
> }the law would require a setup like airport security. Most church
> }officials are smart enough to understand that and don't restrict CCW or
> }open carry and don't worry about it.
>
> time. He just figured he had a right to do as he pleased. Secondly, it doesn't
> matter. If he's so knowledgeable about St. James, he knows damned good and
> well he'd have been told not to come. They'd arrainged plent of security of
> their own......
>
> Shea F. Kenny (Moonbear, Lunar Development Corp)
> World elevator wrestling champion
> This has been, Lunar Network News
> ICQ# 31930333
You seem to be very hung up on the question of permission. It would be
worthwhile for you to learn the laws of your state and states that you
visit. You haven't stated where you live (your sig line indicates the
Moon, which I'm tempted to believe). I sure that if Jim String has a
CCW he does know the firearms laws, at least for the state he lives in
as that is part of the CCW courses which most issuing states require.
I don't know of any state which issues CCW permits which requires or
even recommends that a CCW holder who is armed asks the permission of a
privately owned corporation who's services are open to the public to ask
permission to carry when entering that corporations property or
buildings. That would be ridiculous and time consuming. If I walk into
Walmart am I supposed to track down the manager and ask if it's ok to be
carrying? Get serious. A church is no different unless somehow you are
under the impression that guns are sinful and despised by God. That too
seems to be a hangup with you. It's what's in the heart and mind of the
man that will be judged by God, not a chunk of steel. A church can
choose to post "no firearms" or "no weapons" if they wish. They don't,
at least the vast majority don't. There is no law requiring explicit
permission even if it's someone's home and you are just visiting. Local
custom dictates whether you should ask permission or not. Certainly
where I live no one asks even with open carry.
--
Lou Boyd
Clave
news:slrn869ivg....@molly.hh.org...
> It was a beautiful service, very nicely done. I suspect they didn't
> quite anticipate the sheer number of people who showed up. There were
> local TV station film crews in evidence, though they kept a low enough
> profile.
>
> While I'm generally adverse to large crowds of people this was important
> enough to me to risk it and I'm very glad I did. It was beautiful. The
> music was fantastic and even though it was very crowded the people in
> attendence were very gracious and friendly, a smile was ready from any
> face you looked at. Children were very well behaved and it was wonderful
> to see the all of the families there and the joyous smiles on their faces.
>
> I wore my big .45 in a shoulder holster under my suit,
<snip the rest of the troll>
There really isn't *anything* you're not willing to cheapen by turning it
into a gun issue, is there?
Jim
Shea F. Kenny
<gun...@lightspeed.net> announced:
}Have a good life... and watch the eyes...
Indeed. And, I see yours. Bang. You're dead. Have a nice, afterlife.
Gunwheat..
Shea F. Kenny
<gun...@lightspeed.net> announced:
}
}>}that. There is no "asking permission". There's a clue, water
}>}brain.
}>
}> Different state and I can prove it's an un-constitutional law. Weapons
}>signs on a church. Give me a break. These people have the right to worship IN
}>PEACE. Ie, no reminders of the havoc and chaos of "normal society". It could
}>be said to be defacing their church.
}
}get help dealing with the rigors of "normal society". I can't think of
}any whom take off their ill fitting shoes, leave their car keys at the
}door, or leave their polyester at home.
Guns equal polyester? Have you graduated as much as high school? Jr.
High children are in spasms........
}Humm good point. No one should go to church but unless they are as the
}Lord created them. nekked as a jay bird, with no makeup/stink
}water/hair spray/hairdos. To worship the (insert Diety of your choice)
}in anything but what you were created in, could be said to be defacing
}the church.
Non-sequitor. Utterly.
}>
}> A MUCH better law would be one where it required all permit carriers, to
}>GET PERMISSION OF PRIVATE PROPERTY OWNERS, before assuming they were welcome in
}>those conditions. There we preserve the maximum degree of property rights and
}>2M.
}If a property owner wishes that a particular, and otherwise lawful
}action not be done on their property, they have the responsibility to
}post, not the other way around.
} Such as:
} "No Skateboards on Church Property",
} "No loud farts or Yawns on Church Property"
}"No screaming children on Church Property"
}"No wearing Blue on Church Property"
}"No Reebocks on Church Property"
}"No pen knives, ball point pens or shoelaces on Church Property"
}
}The list can go on and on.
Of course. Irrelevancy is, infinite.
}
}You really are afraid of people arnt you.....
Indeed. For, comfort is found in society. Ie, agreed upon rules for
social interaction. Anarchy is the ultimate in confusion, for everyone has
their own standards. As you so succinctly point out.
}
}
}Gunner
(aka, sewer spray......)
Shea F. Kenny
<gun...@lightspeed.net> announced:
}>the relevant issues? Like, permission of the church? Got any lil pea clues
}>about that one, watermelon brain?
}
}Lots of folks there do. And your point is? You have some insiders
}knowledge from the Vatican? Hows the Pope? Give him my regards.
}
}Gunner
I see. So, from your church we derive the rights of all other churches.
Well, now we have the ultimate question resolved. THANK_YOU_GUNNER!
Or, did you somehow miss the point we're talking about another church?
Did this somehow slip by you? I can't imagine this having occurred, but I do
pride myself upon thoroughness......
Shea F. Kenny
(Walter Daniels) announced:
}On Sun, 26 Dec 1999 08:57:01 -0800, Rainman <f...@nospam.iname.com>
}wrote:
}
}>In article <386640E4...@apt2.sao.arizona.edu>,
}>bo...@apt2.sao.arizona.edu wisely refrained from saying more than...
}>> pastor/minister/rabbi didn't want his congregation to carry he could
}>> easily prevent it by posting a sign at the entrance. Preventing someone
}>> who wanted harm the congregation from bringing in a firearm in spite of
}>> the law would require a setup like airport security. Most church
}>> officials are smart enough to understand that and don't restrict CCW or
}>> open carry and don't worry about it.
}
}>possibility that anyone would feel compelled to carry a weapon into a
}>sanctuary of God? I think that most would be stunned and offended at the
}>thought.
}
}>After all, trouble usually first finds those who are looking for it.
}>Carrying a gun = looking for trouble.
}
} So, carrying a "first aid kit," means I am out "looking for an
}accident?" Carrying a good quality tool kit, means I am "looking for a
}chance to repair a car?" Carrying a short pry bar, means I am looking
}for a house to break into? You really need to go back and retake
}"Logic 101: Reasoning from cause to effect."
Well, quite simply, yes it does. Or, do you carry those items for your
personal pleasure? If you weren't looking for them, how would you see them if
they existed? OF COURSE YOU'RE LOOKING FOR SUCH INCIDENTS, DIMWIT....
Semantics, .000000000000000000000000001.
Shea F. Kenny
<bo...@apt2.sao.arizona.edu> announced:
}You seem to be very hung up on the question of permission.
Hung up on permission? Sir, you POSITIVELY aren't worth dealing with,
in any respect. See ya!
Shea F. Kenny
<ClaviusNo...@gte.net> announced:
Indeed. However, there are a lot of people out there who would have been
influenced by this kind of idealism. All I'm trying to get across is the idea
that you MUST account to some authority, when acting upon the behalf of others.
You MUST not act alone.
Thus, individuals do not own a church or synagogue. The authority for
that group, or the group it's self, MUST be involved in decisions involving
their protection.
Jim String did not, does not, never will, and never should, hold any
such responsibility.
rbo...@fastlane.net
<luna...@home.nut> wrote:
>Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, Rainman
><f...@nospam.iname.com> announced:
>}I wonder how many church officials in the US even consider the
>}possibility that anyone would feel compelled to carry a weapon into a
>}sanctuary of God? I think that most would be stunned and offended at the
>}thought.
>
> That's not the issue. The issue is permission. EVERYONE has the right
>to self defense, even clergy. If they want people to carry weapons, that's
>their business. I demand organization, for public protection. I want the
>proper procedures in place, such that screwball superheros like Jim are culled
>from the get go.
You are hung up on "permission". That's not how the law works.
RTFM.
>
>--
>Shea F. Kenny (Moonbear, Lunar Development Corp)
>World elevator wrestling champion
>This has been, Lunar Network News
>ICQ# 31930333
Rick Bowen
Shea F. Kenny
(rbo...@fastlane.net) announced:
}On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 02:18:48 GMT, Shea F. Kenny
}<luna...@home.nut> wrote:
}
}>Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, Rainman
}><f...@nospam.iname.com> announced:
}>}I wonder how many church officials in the US even consider the
}>}possibility that anyone would feel compelled to carry a weapon into a
}>}sanctuary of God? I think that most would be stunned and offended at the
}>}thought.
}>
}> That's not the issue. The issue is permission. EVERYONE has the right
}>to self defense, even clergy. If they want people to carry weapons, that's
}>their business. I demand organization, for public protection. I want the
}>proper procedures in place, such that screwball superheros like Jim are culled
}>from the get go.
}
}You are hung up on "permission". That's not how the law works.
}RTFM.
Oh? And nothing as to how the law "does" work?
Insinuation, sir, does not a case make. Except on Sunday moring t.v.
This ain't it.........
Jon23
home, continue to exercise all the freedoms guaranteed to me by the Bill
Of Rights unless you as the property owner make it known to me that you
forbid me to exercise these rights on your property. By informing me
that
you do not respect the bill of rights on your property you have provided
me with the information I need to make a decision regarding my presence
on your property.
I WILL NOT ask your permission to exercise my rights anywhere at any
time.
Period.
In article <Zs9mONfjUxbMw5C=wod8Pp86=a...@4ax.com>,
Shea F. Kenny <luna...@home.nut> wrote:
> Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, Rainman
> <f...@nospam.iname.com> announced:
> }I wonder how many church officials in the US even consider the
> }possibility that anyone would feel compelled to carry a weapon into a
> }sanctuary of God? I think that most would be stunned and offended at
the
> }thought.
>
> That's not the issue. The issue is permission. EVERYONE has
the right
> to self defense, even clergy. If they want people to carry weapons,
that's
> their business. I demand organization, for public protection. I want
the
> proper procedures in place, such that screwball superheros like Jim
are culled
> from the get go.
>
> --
> Shea F. Kenny (Moonbear, Lunar Development Corp)
> World elevator wrestling champion
> This has been, Lunar Network News
> ICQ# 31930333
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Clave
news:slrn869ivg....@molly.hh.org...
<...>
> I wore my big .45 in a shoulder holster under my suit, first time I've
> ever actually worn that shoulder holster in public, but I wanted to dress
> well for the occasion.
Jesus died for your right to carry lethal firearms.
Jim
Gunner
>Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, Gunner
><gun...@lightspeed.net> announced:
>}Have a good life... and watch the eyes...
>
> Indeed. And, I see yours. Bang. You're dead. Have a nice, afterlife.
>Gunwheat..
Bang? Did you say Bang? A hoplophobe saying bang? Geeze.... and what
are you going to Bang with? Your not a gun carrier are you...... oh
oh....
Look kids, we have an illegal gun carrying tinfoil hat wearing antigun
person here.... Wheeee! Ol' Shea just said bang!
Next?
Gunner
---------------------------------------------------------
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write
a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort
the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone,
solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program
a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
gallantly. Specialization is for insects." Robert Heinlein
Gunner
>Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, Gunner
><gun...@lightspeed.net> announced:
>}Shea F. Kenny <luna...@home.nut> wrote:
>}
>}>}them kept out, they have to post a very specific sign stating
>}>}that. There is no "asking permission". There's a clue, water
>}>}brain.
>}>
>}> Different state and I can prove it's an un-constitutional law. Weapons
>}>signs on a church. Give me a break. These people have the right to worship IN
>}>PEACE. Ie, no reminders of the havoc and chaos of "normal society". It could
>}>be said to be defacing their church.
>}
>}My church is mighty peaceful. I would expect that many go to church to
>}get help dealing with the rigors of "normal society". I can't think of
>}any whom take off their ill fitting shoes, leave their car keys at the
>}door, or leave their polyester at home.
>
> Guns equal polyester? Have you graduated as much as high school? Jr.
>High children are in spasms........
Yup, guns equal polyester. Both are inanimate objects with finite
purposes. You did graduate from the 4th grade.... right? Missed out on
Elementary Tools 101?
>
>
>}Humm good point. No one should go to church but unless they are as the
>}Lord created them. nekked as a jay bird, with no makeup/stink
>}water/hair spray/hairdos. To worship the (insert Diety of your choice)
>}in anything but what you were created in, could be said to be defacing
>}the church.
>
> Non-sequitor. Utterly.
>
Only by your rather biased and self involved notions. I can be just as
logical(?..smirk) as you can.
>}>
>}> A MUCH better law would be one where it required all permit carriers, to
>}>GET PERMISSION OF PRIVATE PROPERTY OWNERS, before assuming they were welcome in
>}>those conditions. There we preserve the maximum degree of property rights and
>}>2M.
>}If a property owner wishes that a particular, and otherwise lawful
>}action not be done on their property, they have the responsibility to
>}post, not the other way around.
>} Such as:
>} "No Skateboards on Church Property",
>} "No loud farts or Yawns on Church Property"
>}"No screaming children on Church Property"
>}"No wearing Blue on Church Property"
>}"No Reebocks on Church Property"
>}"No pen knives, ball point pens or shoelaces on Church Property"
>}
>}The list can go on and on.
>
> Of course. Irrelevancy is, infinite.
Only irrelevant by your rather irrelevant opinion.
>
>}
>}You really are afraid of people arnt you.....
>
> Indeed. For, comfort is found in society. Ie, agreed upon rules for
>social interaction. Anarchy is the ultimate in confusion, for everyone has
>their own standards. As you so succinctly point out.
>
Yup, sure do. And as long as you are counter to the prevailing
community standards in at least 35 states, it would tend to lead one
to believe that your standards are outside the norm. At the very
least, outside the standards of the majority.
Now, as far as you having your own personal standards... great.
wonderful...awesome even. I/we have our standards as well. Now, unlike
you, sir/madame/it, we do not nag, finger wag, threaten, or just make
a general puke out of ourselves trying to poke our own personal
standards down anyone else's throat.
You, sir/madame/it are a pain in the ass, a clueless maroon, and a
complete wanker. I would suggest that you unsubscribe from any
newsgroup that may tend to present you with standards other than your
own, as it is obvious that it disturbs you immensely. From the tenor
of your posts, you are disturbed enough to require professional
assistance, or at the very least, you should have your dosage
checked.
Gunner
}
>}
>}Gunner
> (aka, sewer spray......)
Gunner
> Indeed. However, there are a lot of people out there who would have been
>influenced by this kind of idealism. All I'm trying to get across is the idea
>that you MUST account to some authority, when acting upon the behalf of others.
>You MUST not act alone.
Yes, you must account to :
A. Yourself
B. Your State
C. Your Federal Government
D. The Diety of your choice.
If one was to see an act of violence being perpetrated on an innocent.
One would believe that you would require permission from B-D before
taking any action.
Ah huh.....
Right.
>
> Thus, individuals do not own a church or synagogue. The authority for
>that group, or the group it's self, MUST be involved in decisions involving
>their protection.
To hell with their protection. Jim has a right to his own personal
protection. With few exceptions (locations) he has that right, to
respond to an immediate threat to his life with a deadly weapon. Now
that deadly weapon may be a firearm, a knife, a club, a telephone
handset, a knee mortor or what ever may be at hand.
If he enters a firearms prohibited area, he still has the right to
respond to an immediate threat to his life, but with any object other
than one prohibited in that area. If he can cobble up a flame thrower
and its assembled from items at hand, he may with no guilt, flambe'
the threat.
A person whom carries a firearm etc, has a great deal of
responsiblity. To himself, his family, the public, his local DA etc
etc. Which is why the law in most states requires that a prospective
CCW be made aware of those responsibilities before he is granted a
CCW. If, he fucks up, he will indeed pay the price. Legally, criminaly
and financialy.
We who carry, all understand that. Which, is one of the reasons so few
ever get in trouble. A CCW does NOT make a person 10' tall and bullet
proof. And each and everyone here knows that. Including you.
You and I know full well, that any misuse of a CCW will involve rather
harsh penalties (unlike those whom carry illegaly btw)
Now it is apparant that you feel that anyone with a firearm is a
personal threat to you. Bummer.
Legal CCW holders have a much better record that the police do, in NOT
shooting the wrong person, or having an accident etc.
Proven, stated, documented.
You don't like it? Tough shit.
Gunner
>
> Jim String did not, does not, never will, and never should, hold any
>such responsibility.
---------------------------------------------------------
Max Masters!!!
Jim String wrote:
>
> In article <3865DB1D...@hotmail.com>, Max Masters!!! wrote:
> >
> >
> >Jim String wrote:
> >
> >snip
> >
> >> I knew it was personally risky for me to go anywhere
> >> near a large crowd
> >
> >snip
> >
> >why is it risky for you to go anywhere near a large crowd?
>
> Generally speaking it's probably not all that risky but Seattle
> is one of those cities that sort of have the attention of terrorists,
> like NYC, DC, Chicago or LA. It's just one of those common sense
> policy decisions like looking both ways before you cross the street,
> wearing clean socks and avoiding large crowds.
>
> Crowds are risky to one's well being, after WTO you ought to know
> that.
understood. i feel safer now than i did 5 years ago.
Max Masters!!!
Peter Hartikka wrote:
> -Peter in Seattle, wondering how exactly a concealed firearm would
> protect one from a bomb blast
HA!
Laurie-Ann Curry
>
> (I'm replying to all of these to see which one admits they were wrong
> first. If any. Or, how long it takes.......)
well since satan is still dialing 1-800-sendice and will be for a long
time I suggest you get a new hobby.
LA
rbo...@fastlane.net
<rstu...@calwest.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 02:12:13 GMT, Shea F. Kenny
><luna...@home.nut> wrote:
>
>>Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, Robert Sturgeon
>><rstu...@calwest.net> announced:
>>}> I think ol Jim is an extremely dangerous individual, unless of course a
>>}>church official asked him to come to services armed and ready??????????????
>>}
>>}Can you explain the logic you used to arrive at that
>>}conclusion?
>>
>> Sure. Ever hear of profiling?
>
>Yes.
>
>> Now. The church is private property.
>>Right?
>
>Yes.
>
>>Thus, you need the owners permission. Right?
>
>No.
Here is the rub. It IS private property, OPEN TO THE PUBLIC.
Your home is not.
Same as a business with a public lobby.
Gregory Gadow
> Given how peaceful and beautiful the service was I suspect there were a
> heck of a lot more guns there than my .45, I spotted quite a few candidates
> for concealed carry including a couple of women.
If I remember correctly, carrying any weapon into a Catholic church is
considered a venial sin thereby meaning that if you carry a gun to mass and
take communion, you have committed a mortal sin (taking communion with
unconfessed sins.) This in addition to the fact that shedding blood in a church
is itself a mortal sin.
Merry Christmas.
--
Gregory Gadow
E-mail: tech...@serv.net
American Liberal Party: http://www.americanliberal.org
I am a resident of Washington State. Any commerical
e-mail sent with false or misleading headers is in
violation of state law and subjectto a $500 penalty.
I WILL FILE CHARGES!
Bill Marcy
>Jim String wrote:
>
>> Given how peaceful and beautiful the service was I suspect there were a
>> heck of a lot more guns there than my .45, I spotted quite a few candidates
>> for concealed carry including a couple of women.
>
>If I remember correctly, carrying any weapon into a Catholic church is
>considered a venial sin thereby meaning that if you carry a gun to mass and
>take communion, you have committed a mortal sin (taking communion with
>unconfessed sins.) This in addition to the fact that shedding blood in a church
>is itself a mortal sin.
How silly. Jesus himself said that if you had no sword, sell your
other goods to buy one.
Never go unarmed...
Lou Boyd
I was told that Jesus said you should turn in your sword for for a pair
of Nikes. I'll have to read that section again.
--
Lou Boyd
Bill Marcy
>> >> Given how peaceful and beautiful the service was I suspect there were a
>> >> heck of a lot more guns there than my .45, I spotted quite a few candidates
>> >> for concealed carry including a couple of women.
>> >
>> >If I remember correctly, carrying any weapon into a Catholic church is
>> >considered a venial sin thereby meaning that if you carry a gun to mass and
>> >take communion, you have committed a mortal sin (taking communion with
>> >unconfessed sins.) This in addition to the fact that shedding blood in a church
>> >is itself a mortal sin.
>>
>> How silly. Jesus himself said that if you had no sword, sell your
>> other goods to buy one.
>>
>> Never go unarmed...
>
>I was told that Jesus said you should turn in your sword for for a pair
>of Nikes. I'll have to read that section again.
That is the NewSpeak version of the Bible...
Clave
news:lh4f6s802ibspv6cr...@4ax.com...
> >> heck of a lot more guns there than my .45, I spotted quite a few
candidates
> >> for concealed carry including a couple of women.
> >
> >If I remember correctly, carrying any weapon into a Catholic church is
> >considered a venial sin thereby meaning that if you carry a gun to mass
and
> >take communion, you have committed a mortal sin (taking communion with
> >unconfessed sins.) This in addition to the fact that shedding blood in a
church
> >is itself a mortal sin.
>
> How silly. Jesus himself said that if you had no sword, sell your
> other goods to buy one.
So you'd have something to beat into a plowshare, I guess.
Jim
RolfN
negatively affecting them in any way, but I might positively affect them
should the worst happen. Should I ask them if I can wear leather (some
member of the congregation may be vegan)? How about after-shave (some may
think it reeks)? What about carrying a NIV rather than a King James? What
about a crucifix rather than a cross, or vice-versa? What _basic_principal_
should one use to determine what I should ask permission for or not?
While on this plane of existence, _I_ am responsible for the physical safety
of myself and family. When we expire (hopefully at a ripe old age), we are
dealing with something else altogether. I'd rather explain to St Peter why I
carried a million times and never cleared leather in fear or anger over the
period of a long life, than why I failed to protect family and self just
once during a short existence.
RolfN
Shea F. Kenny <luna...@home.nut> wrote in message
news:nM5mOOX7GM7Ugb...@4ax.com...
> Having shed several pounds of relevancy on the trollmaster, Bill & Pat
Velek
> <ve...@cyberback.com> announced:
> }Perhaps then it is even _more_ important for someone to carry into
> }St. James Cathedral, given all of the anti-catholic activities that
> }I read about in Catholic papers but never heard a damned word about
> }in the secular media.
>
> Irrelevant. Permission. Did he have permission? That is the question.
> Can you people read.
>
> (I'm replying to all of these to see which one admits they were wrong
> first. If any. Or, how long it takes.......)
>
>
Bill Seward
wrote:
>Shea F. Kenny <luna...@home.nut> wrote:
>
Heck Gunner, just killfile the guy. He's not worth your time or
effort.
Bang, he's outta here!
Jim String
>Jim String wrote:
>
>> Given how peaceful and beautiful the service was I suspect there were a
>> heck of a lot more guns there than my .45, I spotted quite a few candidates
>> for concealed carry including a couple of women.
>
>If I remember correctly, carrying any weapon into a Catholic church is
You aren't remembering correctly.
>considered a venial sin thereby meaning that if you carry a gun to mass and
Since both my gun and my fist are lethal weapons just how do you propose
I leave them both at home? Fundamentally there is no difference between a
firearm and a pocket knife other than some people are irrationally afraid
of firearms (and that a knife is generally better for committing murder).
Any tool can be misused. Different tools have different uses, a handgun
is often best for defense, a knife is often best for offense although
there is overlap. They say "never take a knife to a gunfight" but on the
other hand one should not fail to take a knife to a gunfight either, or
fail to take every reasonable precaution to avoid fights in general.
Funny, I don't see an uproar about taking a pocketknife to Mass, how
is that people can attribute magical evil-gun-ray-like properties to
an inanimate object? Objects are value neutral. To continue this absurd
line of reasoning I suppose someone whose hands are registered as deadly
weapons (do some jurisdictions still do this foolishness?) would need
to go to Mass in handcuffs.
Also, sin, like crime, is in the intent, both in commission and omission.
What's also interesting is that this never came up after mentioning it
in confession.
>take communion, you have committed a mortal sin (taking communion with
>unconfessed sins.) This in addition to the fact that shedding blood in a church
>is itself a mortal sin.
Right out of the middle ages. The seven deadly sins were also once considered
unforgivable or mortal. They also used to think all non-catholics were destined
for hell. Things have changed.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only mortal (unforgivable) sin I'm aware
of. Even murder and perjury may be repented and forgiven. I remember these
issues being discussed at length in class. (I spent a good portion of my
teenaged years in Catholic schools, I guess you can't discuss morality in
public schools these days but that's another issue)
Best,
Jim
Eric da Red
Jim String <pla...@not.replyable.com> wrote:
>It was a beautiful service, very nicely done. I suspect they didn't
>quite anticipate the sheer number of people who showed up. There were
>local TV station film crews in evidence, though they kept a low enough
>profile.
>I wore my big .45 in a shoulder holster under my suit, first time I've
>ever actually worn that shoulder holster in public, but I wanted to dress
>well for the occasion.
Good idea. If a scruffy pregnant woman and her unemployed husband barged
in and interrupted the service, you could shoot her.
--
Quote Of The Century:
"When the President does it, that means it is not illegal."
- Richard Milhous Nixon
Steven Thornton
> Again, depends on what state he was in. In Texas, if they want
> them kept out, they have to post a very specific sign stating
> that. There is no "asking permission". There's a clue, water
> brain.
What part of "seattle.general" or "Midnight Mass, St. James Cathedral" led
you to believe that he was in Texas, Mr. Science?
As long as the gun nuts insist on going overboard and bragging about
carrying concealed firearms into a church at Christmas, among other
things, common sense gun regulations will continue to move slowly forward.
Mr. String, with his shiny new shoulder holster, is indistinguishable from
the loons he claims to be protecting himself against. If he had been
present in the church where the nut started shooting, he would have either
wilted with fear himself, or taken out at least a few other innocents
while exercising his hero fantasies.
--
--
Steve Thornton, Nancy Man ste...@eskimo.com
Email indiepop-l...@eskimo.com with Subject: subscribe
Bill Marcy
>> Again, depends on what state he was in. In Texas, if they want
>> them kept out, they have to post a very specific sign stating
>> that. There is no "asking permission". There's a clue, water
>> brain.
>
>What part of "seattle.general" or "Midnight Mass, St. James Cathedral" led
>you to believe that he was in Texas, Mr. Science?
>
>As long as the gun nuts insist on going overboard and bragging about
>carrying concealed firearms into a church at Christmas, among other
>things, common sense gun regulations will continue to move slowly forward.
>
>Mr. String, with his shiny new shoulder holster, is indistinguishable from
>the loons he claims to be protecting himself against. If he had been
>present in the church where the nut started shooting, he would have either
>wilted with fear himself, or taken out at least a few other innocents
>while exercising his hero fantasies.
>--
Yeah, only Police should have guns! They never miss, and they never
cower in fear!
Bill Marcy
wrote:
>In article <slrn869ivg....@molly.hh.org>,
>Jim String <pla...@not.replyable.com> wrote:
>>It was a beautiful service, very nicely done. I suspect they didn't
>>quite anticipate the sheer number of people who showed up. There were
>>local TV station film crews in evidence, though they kept a low enough
>>profile.
>...
>>I wore my big .45 in a shoulder holster under my suit, first time I've
>>ever actually worn that shoulder holster in public, but I wanted to dress
>>well for the occasion.
>
>
>Good idea. If a scruffy pregnant woman and her unemployed husband barged
>in and interrupted the service, you could shoot her.
And you could scream at the top of your lungs "Jesus, Mary and Joseph"
at the same time, not only would everyone be impressed with your fine
shooting abilities, but for your prescient abilities also.
Get a life troll.
Clave
Hey, Bill -- why don't you go back and read String's original post all over
again, then come back and tell us with a straight face who the troll in this
thread really is.
Jim
Peeve: Gun nuts who circle their wagons around idiocy.
Anonymous
> Period. That could well be grounds for revocation of your permit.
not sure about the state in question
but in tennessee if a business (a church is a business) wants to prohibit lawful
carry on it's premises it has to post notice prominently.
I've never seen such a posting in a church.
> So, what gives you the right to carry upon private property without
> their permission?
by them not posting their denial of that right
--
"Crooks are going to get guns regardless of what regulations we have."
- --The Honorable Kurt Schmoke, Mayor of Baltimore, March 13, 1999