Some random thoughts on the Strategic Picture
Dragonfly
attack America because he hates "freedom". Until Dubja addresses the
real reasons why muslims worldwide have so much animosity towards
America, this "war" will drag on and continue to grow larger and larger
until it becomes a regional, then global crisis. Don't get me wrong. I'm
all for killing the bastards that set these events in motion in the
first place, but I'm also for correcting the problems in the middle east
so this type of thing does not happen again. A large part of the problem
in the middle east comes from our policies of containment and balance of
power. Remember those terms? These were the effective policies of the
cold war and it's aftermath with the collapse of the Soviet Union.
However, while they were effective in bringing about the primary goal,
the collapse of the Soviet Union, they did very little to build up the
infrastructure in the countries we were directly involved in. Once our
inital interests in a particular region were done with, we abandoned our
allies in those regions to fend for themselves. Worse even, we caused
some to rise to power, only to betray our interests to satisfy their
own. And the worst of all is that we allowed these people to stay in
power because of some esoteric chess game being played in the Pentagon
and other seats of power because it would upset the "balance of power"
in the region if we deposed them. So, the end result is that we've had a
communist nation like Cuba that sits 80 miles off our coast, and Saddam
still lives, because the "alternative" would have been worse, and that
bin Laden and his terror network was "allowed" to continue because of Al
Qaeda's tentacles in Kosovo and Chetchnya, and that it would have caused
too many sacrifices to the "balance of power" in the region had we
interfered. Well guess what? Bin Laden has caused us to sit up and take
notice, and the odds at this time, with all the enormous military and
economic advantages the West, and the US in particular has, looks to me
like the odds are about even, even slightly in bin Laden's favor. He is
gambling that: 1) We cannot rally the Northern Alliance's troops in the
wake of Massoud's death 2) Pakistan's government will collapse because
of their support for the US, which was in danger of collapsing even
before 9/11 according to an unclassified CIA report 3) The Saudi
Government will collapse, which is Laden's secret goal, 4) all the
repressive middle east regimes that support the US will collapse, and
this will truly become an Islamic war. I haven't even mentioned Israel
or Palestine yet...it goes without saying that he wants those policies
changed. I think the odds are even or better that this becomes an even
bigger conflict than just bin laden and the terror networks...I fully
expect the Middle East to go up in flames once the bombs and bullets
start flying...not because of our bombs and bullets ( I think they will
be used judiciously), but becuase of what bin Laden has set in motion.
--
"War has been waged by stealth, and deceit, and murder."
George W. Bush
"A man who wishes to make a profession of goodness in everything must
necessarily come to grief among so many who are not so good. Therefore
it is necessary for a prince, who wishes to maintain himself, to learn
how to not be good and use the knowledge as well as not use it,
according to the necessity of the case."
Niccolo Machiavelli
"If a killing type of virus strain should suddenly arise
by mutation...it could, because of the rapid transporta-
tion in which we indulge nowadays, be carried to the far
corners of the earth and cause the deaths of millions of
people."
W.M. Stanley, in "Chemical and Engineering News", Dec. 22,
1947
Robert Sturgeon
wrote:
Oh man, agreeing with Dragonfly! Oh well...
>All the propaganda coming out of Washington set aside, bin Laden did not
>attack America because he hates "freedom".
If the terrorists attacked the U.S. because of its freedom and
Western values, sexual equality, etc., they would have turned the
Netherlands completely into rubble years ago. They didn't attack
us for who we are, but for what we do. They may hate us for who
we are and how we live, but no more so than they hate rest of the
modern West.
(rest snipped)
--
Robert Sturgeon
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
Proud member of the vast right wing
conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
Speaker to Animals
If OBL manages to cause the collasp of the "pro" western (I use pro with great
care, our son spent a year+ i SA and the average Muslin male on the street
hates us and all things western) Suadi government, and takes over in Pakestan,
then the fat will be in the fire.
He could get things stirred up to the point wehre it turns into a "us Vs
Islam" battle he will coom the entire Isalmic world. Both China a Russia have
severe problems with their Muslim populations. And I suspect that both would
sign onto ta paln of genocide.
Don't laugh. IF we got bloody minded enough it would be simpel to remove Islam
from at least the middle east. Nuetron bombs on poulation centeres. Nerve gass
on more remote areas.
USe our spy sats to look for any sign of man. Send in a dust of attack with
persistant nerve agents and within 2 years there would be so few left as to
cease being a threat and a people.
While I know you do not accept the existance of a God, I pray nightly that
someohter solution is posible. I lsitend to Radio Kuwait the otehr day, and
they are dancing a fine line. Inspte of the fact that Kuwait exists because
the USA intervined, they are not all that anxiuos to help stop the
"terrorists".Odd pay back for the salvation of their natin.
The only good news is the King of Moraco who said that
"all Muslims have a duty ot help remove the bloat of terror from Islam."
Be real interesting to see how long he lasts.
Dragonfly
Speaker to Animals wrote:
>
>
> If OBL manages to cause the collasp of the "pro" western (I use pro with great
> care, our son spent a year+ i SA and the average Muslin male on the street
> hates us and all things western) Suadi government, and takes over in Pakestan,
> then the fat will be in the fire.
> He could get things stirred up to the point wehre it turns into a "us Vs
> Islam" battle he will coom the entire Isalmic world. Both China a Russia have
> severe problems with their Muslim populations. And I suspect that both would
> sign onto ta paln of genocide.
> Don't laugh. IF we got bloody minded enough it would be simpel to remove Islam
> from at least the middle east. Nuetron bombs on poulation centeres. Nerve gass
> on more remote areas.
> USe our spy sats to look for any sign of man. Send in a dust of attack with
> persistant nerve agents and within 2 years there would be so few left as to
> cease being a threat and a people.
> While I know you do not accept the existance of a God, I pray nightly that
> someohter solution is posible. I lsitend to Radio Kuwait the otehr day, and
> they are dancing a fine line. Inspte of the fact that Kuwait exists because
> the USA intervined, they are not all that anxiuos to help stop the
> "terrorists".Odd pay back for the salvation of their natin.
> The only good news is the King of Moraco who said that
> "all Muslims have a duty ot help remove the bloat of terror from Islam."
> Be real interesting to see how long he lasts.
Speaker,]
I'm happy to see you are well enough to post now and then. I hope the recovery
process goes well. It's good to get this out of the way before this crisis kicks
in full scale.
You've got a unique perspective into the middle east few of us have. I'm tempted
to become a Deist just so that I can send a few prayers your way every now and
then ;-) The world certainly needs a few now.
I'm hoping that we don't have to nuke and nerve agent the entire middle east into
submission. I'm thinking we can control the oil conventionally if it comes to
that, but it will be hella bloody occupation. We need a smart and bold leader
right now, and I'm not sure Dubya fits the bill. Let's hope he rises to the
occasion.
Dragonfly
Robert Sturgeon wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 17:49:12 -0600, Dragonfly <icb...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> Oh man, agreeing with Dragonfly! Oh well...
Hehe :) More like me coming around to your way of thinking, methinks...
>
>
> >All the propaganda coming out of Washington set aside, bin Laden did not
> >attack America because he hates "freedom".
>
> If the terrorists attacked the U.S. because of its freedom and
> Western values, sexual equality, etc., they would have turned the
> Netherlands completely into rubble years ago. They didn't attack
> us for who we are, but for what we do. They may hate us for who
> we are and how we live, but no more so than they hate rest of the
> modern West.
>
> (rest snipped)
>
> --
> Robert Sturgeon
> http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
>
> Proud member of the vast right wing
> conspiracy and the evil gun culture.
I'm having a hard time understanding what they hate more: Our backing of
Israel, or our wishy washy balance of power strategies.
Lonnie Courtney Clay
> In article <3BB50C78...@yahoo.com>, icb...@yahoo.com says...
> >
> >All the propaganda coming out of Washington set aside, bin Laden did not
> The only good news is the King of Moraco who said that
> "all Muslims have a duty ot help remove the bloat of terror from Islam."
> Be real interesting to see how long he lasts.
******************************************************************************
There he goes spouting off hatred and disinformation again. This is
the guy whose mail path connects to rather bad places. He prides
himself upon speaking to animals - US. Observe how his posts contain
typographical errors now. Is he upset ? Is he disturbed ? Is he a
doofus tryin' to spoof us ?
Lonnie Courtney Clay
Speaker to Animals
>
>
>
>Speaker,]
>
>I'm happy to see you are well enough to post now and then. I hope the
recovery
>process goes well. It's good to get this out of the way before this crisis
kicks
>in full scale.
In a way I am lucky beyond all understanding.
If anyone one of a long list of unlikely events ahd not happened I would not
be posting today. No really big deal, except I would have missed the birth of
our grand daughter. And the unpcoming (as in her water broke 20 minutes ago!)
birth of our 2nd grand child!
The wife is getting ready to drive us (her and me) to the hospital.
>
>You've got a unique perspective into the middle east few of us have.
Sadly this "perspective" does not show any likely good outcomes.
>I'm tempted
>to become a Deist just so that I can send a few prayers your way every now
and
>then ;-) The world certainly needs a few now.
It can't hurt.
>I'm hoping that we don't have to nuke and nerve agent the entire middle east
into
>submission. I'm thinking we can control the oil conventionally if it comes to
>that, but it will be hella bloody occupation. We need a smart and bold leader
>right now, and I'm not sure Dubya fits the bill. Let's hope he rises to the
>occasion.
I suspect that if "we" (the "west") decides to take control of the oil wells
we will have to engage in genocide first. They will fight to the end to save
the only source of wealth they own. While I have doubts of GWB ability, I am
only glad that Ralph Nader did not win.
Perhaps GWB will turn out to be much smarter than any of us thought or think.
Smart or dumb he is the president, and while you may scoff, Ipray for God to
help send him some wisdom. I don't know who would have been better. I think Al
Gore is a decent guy, but have major doubts about his ability to cope with
this insanity.
Speaker to Animals
says...
Yep, allmost evrty post I make will have "typographical errors", and
grammatical and speling to boot. And yes my mail addy is mungled and
(it should be obvious to even an idiot like you) is NOT REAL!
And as far as ahte filled, don't think so. I do not wnat this to turn
into to the last crusade. The first ones where evil enough to last
forever. I fear that the middle east being what it is, peopled by
the folks there, who have no love for either the USA or Christianity,
that thngs are going to get a lot worse before they get better.
I fear that IF OBL has or gains access to nukes, or if the governments
in several key states fall int the hand of the Islamisists (I first herad
the term on the BBC n regards to the ultra Islamic Muslims in ALgereia, but
htey have since used the term to discribe any extreme form of Islam) they
"Fat will be in the fire".
I do not want to be a part of a culture that exterminates another.
What we inthe USA did to the natives in this land is disgusting.
I fell we get involved in too many peace keeping operations that arepointless
and doomed to failure. (As a bonus question, whre has the UN had troups to
longest to keep the peace, disconounting Korea?.......Hint is was over 30
years ago and it was to keep Muslim/Turks from Christian/Greeks. The line of
separation is called teh green line. Some lasting peace).
While I have no doubt of our ability to solve the Islam "problem", I fear,
not ony for the evil we would inflict upon the Islamic world, what we would
turn into. Given the seveal million US citiznes who are Islamic, adding in the
NOI, if we "kill them all" over there,we will have to do the same here. I do
not want concentration camps. I do not want death camps, complete with ovens.
At best I have 30 years of decent life left. But I now have one grand child
and another on the way (like right now). Forgive me if I worry about the fate
of civilazation. If I am concerned about the hate speeach coming from our
supposed allays. (Radio Kuwait sept 24) And I am more than a littel concerened
that only Muslim political leader has had teh guts or brains to speak out on
just what needs to be done. Action that needs to be taken by Islamic
governments. They are in the area. They control the funds used to back OBL and
minions. Their envolvment, on "our" side decreases the chances of the worst
case happening.
What is your soulution?
Have you even read the Koran?
Have you even talked to any Muslims about this mess?
Are you concerned about this out of control mess?
Do you even have a clue what is at stake here?
Perhaps you think a military solution is a good idea.
Perhaps you approve of the "kill them all and let God sort them out" approach.
Perhaps you are a frekin idiot who should check into the nearest
mental hospital.If you cannot tell the difference between concern and hate
then you are beyond help. A short reprise. I am concerend about where this is
going. I am concerend about the refusal of Arab leaders tostep up to the plate
and make clear, non ambigous statements, I am concerened about there
unwillinglness to take action that would make miliatry aciton by us unneeded.
I am concerend that any military action we undertake will unit Islam against
us. I am concerend that OBL will gain control of Pakistan and thus gain real
weapons. I am aconcerend that in a wort case situation the "west" will ahve
to take "decisive" action against the region. It scares the crap out of me.
Genocide is easy. We have the technolgy to do it. I do not know if we have the
"guts"( for lack of a clearer word). I have no wish to see the area
"cleansed". We have to and will do "something". I just have some major worries
about where that something is going to lead.
Oh, please don't bother to read any more of my posts as they only irratate
you. And rest assuured that my kill file is working again and you have been
added.
PLONK
Got to run, a baby is going to be born.
synchronicity
Warning message posted by others disappeared.
Brett Benson
computer game (www.shrapnelgames.com) for spouting nonsense (and I
mean NONSENSE, no one good understand him). He was cool at the
beginning, posting on-topic, but then all the sudden went psycho. The
forum I was on banned him. You can seach for the thread that banned
him on the Space Empires 4 fourm.
Also, agree what you have been saying, been posting these same views
on alt.religion.islam, see little hope from the muslim reps there,
also.
Regards,
Brett Benson
On 29 Sep 2001 14:16:10 GMT, Dante'@inferno.net (Speaker to Animals)
wrote:
Speaker to Animals
>
>Watch out for this LCC guy, he has been banned from a forum on a
>computer game (www.shrapnelgames.com) for spouting nonsense (and I
>mean NONSENSE, no one good understand him). He was cool at the
>beginning, posting on-topic, but then all the sudden went psycho. The
>forum I was on banned him. You can seach for the thread that banned
>him on the Space Empires 4 fourm.
>
>Also, agree what you have been saying, been posting these same views
>on alt.religion.islam, see little hope from the muslim reps there,
>also.
>
>Regards,
>
>Brett Benson
>
I love verbal jousting as much as the next guy, but I thought his psots
were going a little wierd. Since reading your warning I went back, unkill
filed him and read most of his posts.
He is a loon.
A stupid and insidous loon.
He is kill filed again, where he will stay.
IF he is so lame as to get confussed, then upset over my
obviously bogus Email addy (come on guy get real Dante'@ inferno.net {like
Danta's inferno???} reply to Email addy "It is not a real name!!!!" and
Organization Wonderland Free Navy) then he is too lame to bother with.
If everyone kill files and ignores him he will crawl back under his rock.
Greylock
bill"
He has performed well so far and is doing a damned sight better than Gore
would have been.
"Dragonfly" <icb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3BB55EC4...@yahoo.com...
Lonnie Courtney Clay
*******************************************************************************
> He was cool at the beginning, posting on-topic, but then all the sudden went > psycho.
I suppose that you missed the point of my private little jousting
match with "Arcadenut" at shrapnelgames. You will notice that when I
gave some credentials he did not respond. He and others like him are
uncultured, or as the Russians say : non-kulturney. Culture gives
context and perspective to understand things.
I make no secret of my track record, as those who recieve email from
me are well aware. Can you tell a bare faced truth from a bald faced
lie ? So far the answer seems to be not by a very long shot. I live in
a fish bowl open to inspection and have done so since childhood when I
first came to governnment attention. The relationship is symbiotic and
generally mutually beneficial. I wound up on this newsgroup because
the group which I was looking for did not exist yet and this was one
of two groups suggested by Deja autosearch itself as the appropriate
place to post. I hope to make contact with others like me here, at
which point we will take our conversations private.
> He is a loon.
> A stupid and insidous loon.
You have a most peculiar definition of stupid - perhaps your IQ is as
far above mine as mine is above the average, but somehow I doubt it.
As for being a loon, that one wore off before I ever got to high
school. At 45 it just makes me laugh. As for being insidious, I prefer
the term "subtle" although I have also been accused of intolerable
bluntness.
Words have power to fire the imagination. I have to doubt the good
intentions of someone who uses jokes like :
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<Dante'@inferno.net>
----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to mayhem.inferno.net.:
>>> RCPT To:<Dante'@inferno.net>
<<< 550 5.1.1 <Dante'@inferno.net>... User unknown
550 <Dante'@inferno.net>... User unknown
> If everyone kill files and ignores him he will crawl back under his rock.
My email account is open to all, so what do **YOU** have to hide
behind ?
If I were gainfully employed then I *might* not have time to amuse
myself in this manner. Until then I will continue turning over and
kicking your "rocks"........
Lonnie Courtney Clay
Offbreed
> "We need a smart and bold leader right now, and I'm not sure Dubya fits the
> bill"
>
> He has performed well so far and is doing a damned sight better than Gore
> would have been.
Even if he is as mediocre as Worm Tongue (White Chihuahua) claims, he
is far superior to either Clinton or Gore. He has not pushed for
statist powers as strongly as I had expected from being his father's
son. (Gods, imagine Al "No controlling legal authority" Gore as pres!
<shudder>) Then again, there's a lot going on in the "back room", so
we need to keep our eyes and ears open.
Valid point made in another thread that part of this might be payback
for Clinton "wagging the dog" (bombing aspirin plants).
I found the discribed reactions of the different politicians to be
very interesting. Even the most detestible of the socialist
politicians landed on their feet, except Hillary.
Anyone track how Gore did? A smart politician would be out talking,
building name recognition. Heh, heh, about like Hillary tried to <G>.