Bank of America fires 3,000 american programmers, replaces them with Indians
Dark Vision
"Iconoclast" <gas...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
><.> wrote in message news:3e2c...@news.pcmagic.net...
>>
>> Bank of America recently completed it's restructuring where it would fire
>> it's entire computer programming staff of 3,000 and replace them with
>Indian
>> workers in the US and abroad.
>>
>> These fired american's were not incompetent, in fact they were required to
>> train their replacements.
>
>They could have refused. They should have all walked off the job and left
>the bank in chaos.
>
If the top executives of Bank of Amerika faced a very real prospect of
sudden death every time they stepped out in public, they might gain an
appreciation of the magnitude of their acts.
Morton Davis
"Dark Vision" <dark_...@shoot.back> wrote in message
news:PHS068UO37642.7348148148@anonymous.poster...
anonymous handle? Perhaps the stupidity of what you said is beyond you.
-*MORT*-
Steve
> "Iconoclast" <gas...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> ><.> wrote in message news:3e2c...@news.pcmagic.net...
> >>
> >> Bank of America recently completed it's restructuring where it would fire
> >> it's entire computer programming staff of 3,000 and replace them with
> >Indian
> >> workers in the US and abroad.
> >>
> >> These fired american's were not incompetent, in fact they were required to
> >> train their replacements.
> >
> >They could have refused. They should have all walked off the job and left
> >the bank in chaos.
> >
A more appropriate group for this post would be alt.computer.consultants,
where there is much discussion on this topic.
( This has been going on for several years. Are you just now hearing
about it ? Although I had been a programmer, system programmer,
and DBA, for 15 years, a few years ago, my ability to find a programming
job 'dried up', and I'm currently moving boxes for one of the major
package handling companies...until I decide and get started on another
career )
> If the top executives of Bank of Amerika faced a very real prospect of
> sudden death every time they stepped out in public, they might gain an
> appreciation of the magnitude of their acts.
Don't get mad at them...get mad at the supporters of the
H-1B program....
--
-- The decoy in my email address is for spam bots --
-- remove it and you'll have my actual address --
Cheers
Steve
Morton Davis
"Steve" <sre...@decoycomcast.net> wrote in message
news:3E2DEC5D...@decoycomcast.net...
> Dark Vision wrote:
>
> > "Iconoclast" <gas...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > ><.> wrote in message news:3e2c...@news.pcmagic.net...
> > >>
> > >> Bank of America recently completed it's restructuring where it would
fire
> > >> it's entire computer programming staff of 3,000 and replace them with
> > >Indian
> > >> workers in the US and abroad.
> > >>
> > >> These fired american's were not incompetent, in fact they were
required to
> > >> train their replacements.
> > >
> > >They could have refused. They should have all walked off the job and
left
> > >the bank in chaos.
> > >
>
> A more appropriate group for this post would be
alt.computer.consultants,
> where there is much discussion on this topic.
> ( This has been going on for several years. Are you just now hearing
> about it ? Although I had been a programmer, system programmer,
> and DBA, for 15 years, a few years ago, my ability to find a programming
> job 'dried up', and I'm currently moving boxes for one of the major
> package handling companies...until I decide and get started on another
> career )
May I make a simple suggestion? Have you looked into selling stuff online?
It might take you a little study to figure out what to sell and where to
sell it, but there is definately a lot of money to be made.
Selling parts from old computers is good. I know a man who makes good money
hunting in auto junkyards and selling used car parts. Of course, my feeling
is that he who sells one thing eventually starves.
-*MORT*-
ro...@mauve.demon.co.uk
Anonymous handles don't mean much.
Though a fresh post from a prison computer may.
--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inqui...@i.am | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
"Give a man a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set him on fire, and he's warm
for the rest of his life" -- Terry Pratchett-Jingo
Brown...@removethisgrrattitude.com
> Dark Vision wrote:
>
> > ><.> wrote in message news:3e2c...@news.pcmagic.net...
> > >>
> > >> Bank of America recently completed it's restructuring where it would fire
> > >> it's entire computer programming staff of 3,000 and replace them with
> > >Indian
> > >> workers in the US and abroad.
> > >>
> > >> These fired american's were not incompetent, in fact they were required to
> > >> train their replacements.
> Don't get mad at them...get mad at the supporters of the
> H-1B program....
>
You mean...President Bush?
BlueSky
> "Dark Vision" <dark_...@shoot.back> wrote in message
> news:PHS068UO37642.7348148148@anonymous.poster...
> > sudden death every time they stepped out in public, they might gain an
> > appreciation of the magnitude of their acts.
> >
> Well, bunky, are YOU making a threat? Big assed you, hiding behind your
> anonymous handle? Perhaps the stupidity of what you said is beyond you.
>
> -*MORT*-
Oh, hey, how you doing Mort?
I will defend his anonymous handle. It is the basis of free speech.
Just like in the voting booth our identity is secret. The actual vote
is anonymous or is supposed to be. It is the same with an anonymous
handle. It is a fundamental part of what America is. That can never be
changed.
Anyway, throughout history, in pre-revolutionary times verbal
expressions of anger become common.
I was looking back in my book "Nicholas and Alexandra," by Robert
Massie. Miliukov, the leader of the liberals, in the Duma (the Duma is
an attempt at a kind of Congress or representative of the people) is
presenting one charge after another against the govt. After each
charge he asks, "Is this stupidity or is it treason?" (This is about
2/3 way through the chapter "The government disintegrates").
Later, about half way through the chapter "Last Winter at Tsarkoe
Selo," is the description of the Grand Duchess herself advocating a
violent end to the Empress. She says, "The Duma must do something. She
must be annihilated."
"Who?" asks Rodzianko, the President of the Duma.
"The Empress."
Whereupon Rodzianko says he will treat this conversation as if he
never heard it.
At the very start of the chapter "Revolution: March 1917," we read,
that on February 27 (1917), Kerensky shouted at the meeting of the
Duma, "To prevent a catastrophe, the Tsar himself must be removed, by
terrorist methods if there is no other way." Protopropov began
proceedings to remove Kerensky's parliamentary immunity in order to
execute charges of treason. Rodzianko told Kerensky privately, "Be
sure we will never give you up to them."
So violent words are part of history in treacherous times.
Sovereign Individual
In a free society, Bank of America is free to hire or fire whomever
they choose.
Anybody who uses force to try and stop them from doing so needs to be
shot dead, or blown up with a Ryder truck packed with high explosives.
- Sovereign Individual
Morton Davis
"Sovereign Individual" <Anonymous...@See.Comment.Header> wrote in
message news:CF5OZEPY37643.4289236111@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
Explosions, as we have seen are not single target directable.
From what I saw, the people who were laid off are SUPPOSEDLY highly skilled
and intelligent. They should have no problem finding a way to make money
using their skills. At the beginning of the home computer age, 3M company
sent a sales team to visit the company that was selling more 3M computer
diskettes than any other in a region. What they found was a 15 -year old
boy, with a home computer, working out of his bedroom. Surely this bunch is
savier than a 15 -year old boy.
-*MORT*-
Iconoclast
"Sovereign Individual" <Anonymous...@See.Comment.Header> wrote in
message news:CF5OZEPY37643.4289236111@Gilgamesh-frog.org...
<PHS068UO37642.7348148148@anonymous.poster>...
> >
> > "Iconoclast" <gas...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > ><.> wrote in message news:3e2c...@news.pcmagic.net...
> > >>
> > >> Bank of America recently completed it's restructuring where it would
fire
> > >> it's entire computer programming staff of 3,000 and replace them with
> > >> Indian workers in the US and abroad.
> > >>
> > >> These fired american's were not incompetent, in fact they were
required to
> > >> train their replacements.
> > >
> > >They could have refused. They should have all walked off the job and
left
> > >the bank in chaos.
> > >
> > If the top executives of Bank of Amerika faced a very real prospect of
> > sudden death every time they stepped out in public, they might gain an
> > appreciation of the magnitude of their acts.
>
> In a free society, Bank of America is free to hire or fire whomever
> they choose.
>
At least they should change their name to the Bank of India. They were the
Bank of Italy prior to World War II and changed their name during the war to
avoid being attacked by pissed off Americans.
Insider
Note that Senator Dayton had nothing to say about the fact
that his constituents lost their jobs and their careers.
It's so discouraging in the CompSci departments
at the U that students are dropping out and moving to careers
that can't be exported to India.
"Morton Davis" <oglet...@oglethorpe.com> wrote in message
news:20xX9.783081$WL3.784518@rwcrnsc54...
Morton Davis
"Insider" <jalv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZmzX9.645$Rv1....@bcandid.telisphere.com...
> Dayton/Target in Minneapolis has done the same thing.
> Note that Senator Dayton had nothing to say about the fact
> that his constituents lost their jobs and their careers.
> It's so discouraging in the CompSci departments
> at the U that students are dropping out and moving to careers
> that can't be exported to India.
>
>
May I suggest pharmacy? There is a shortage of pharmicists.
-*MORT*-
erniegalts
wrote:
Interesting rumor, but incorrect. Name changed in 1928.
----------------------------------
The Bank of America started as the Bank of Italy
Amedeo Giannini, son of Italian immigrants to the US, started the Bank
of America in a converted saloon in San Francisco at 9 am on Monday,
17 October 1904. On the first day, 28 deposits totalled $8,780.
When an earthquake struck in 1907, he ran his bank from a plank in the
street. Word quickly spread about his service and by 1916 he had
several branches. By 1929, the bank was strong enough to withstand the
Great Depression stock crash. Giannini changed the name to Bank of
America in 1928 and remained chairman until 1963. . .
Above and more at:
http://www.didyouknow.cd/banks.htm
>
>
>
erniegalts
[Australia]
[misc.survivalism]
Most amusing and inaccurate statement of the decade:
"An armed society is a polite society."
Massa Roy
Anonymous...@See.Comment.Header (Sovereign Individual) wrote:
> "Dark Vision" <dark_...@shoot.back> wrote in
> <PHS068UO37642.7348148148@anonymous.poster>...
> >
> > "Iconoclast" <gas...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > ><.> wrote in message news:3e2c...@news.pcmagic.net...
> > >>
> > >> Bank of America recently completed it's restructuring where it would
> > >> fire
> > >> it's entire computer programming staff of 3,000 and replace them with
> > >> Indian workers in the US and abroad.
> > >>
> > >> These fired american's were not incompetent, in fact they were required
> > >> to
> > >> train their replacements.
> > >
> > >They could have refused. They should have all walked off the job and left
> > >the bank in chaos.
> > >
> > If the top executives of Bank of Amerika faced a very real prospect of
> > sudden death every time they stepped out in public, they might gain an
> > appreciation of the magnitude of their acts.
>
> In a free society, Bank of America is free to hire or fire whomever
> they choose.
>
That's true, but they want their cake and to eat it, too. They want
American dollars to make American profits, but they want to get rid of
Americans in their pursuit of the almighty dollar.
> Anybody who uses force to try and stop them from doing so needs to be
> shot dead, or blown up with a Ryder truck packed with high explosives.
>
What a stupid fucking thing to say. If we try to use force of economics,
or force of legislation to make them change their greedy ways, then we
should be blown up? Think about what you write before you write it.
> - Sovereign Individual
Oh, I see. Your one of those. LOL
Roy
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
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Morton Davis
"Massa Roy" <mass...@newglobalplantation.org> wrote in message
news:massa_roy-78867...@news4.uncensored-news.com...
It's their right. It's the worker's right to organize a boycott, or get a
clue and retrain.
-*MORT*-
erniegalts
>In misc.survivalism, erniegalts wrote:
>
>> "Iconoclast" wrote:
>>>At least they should change their name to the Bank of India. They were the
>>>Bank of Italy prior to World War II and changed their name during the war to
>>>avoid being attacked by pissed off Americans.
>
>>Interesting rumor, but incorrect. Name changed in 1928.
>
>>The Bank of America started as the Bank of Italy
>>Amedeo Giannini, son of Italian immigrants to the US, started the Bank
>>of America in a converted saloon .....changed the name to Bank of
>>America in 1928 .....
>
>Technically incorrect only. It wasn't WWII, it was the recognition by
>the west that Italy had become a permanent dictatorship. Thought the
>dictatorship started in '22, it was cemented in 1928 when the
>parliament was formally dissolved.
>
>The name change was a good idea to prevent potential intervention
>--like frozen accounts-- by the government.
"Technically incorrect" is still historically "incorrect", if want to
be accurate.
Are you possibly suggesting that the Italian government forsaw the US
sequestration of bank accounts in WW2 as early as 1928? Can we have a
URL reference for this please? :-)
erniegalts
Iconoclast
"HueYhu" <Hue...@derode.com> wrote in message
news:b6eu2vosh24grd6b8...@4ax.com...
> In misc.survivalism, erniegalts wrote:
>
> > "Iconoclast" wrote:
the
> >>Bank of Italy prior to World War II and changed their name during the
war to
> >>avoid being attacked by pissed off Americans.
>
> >Interesting rumor, but incorrect. Name changed in 1928.
>
> >Amedeo Giannini, son of Italian immigrants to the US, started the Bank
> >America in 1928 .....
>
> Technically incorrect only. It wasn't WWII, it was the recognition by
> the west that Italy had become a permanent dictatorship. Thought the
> dictatorship started in '22, it was cemented in 1928 when the
> parliament was formally dissolved.
>
> The name change was a good idea to prevent potential intervention
> --like frozen accounts-- by the government.
>
Thanks for your post. Your additional historical information and analysis
is appreciated.
Jamie Hart
"Massa Roy" <mass...@newglobalplantation.org> wrote in message
news:massa_roy-78867...@news4.uncensored-news.com...
> Anonymous...@See.Comment.Header (Sovereign Individual) wrote:
> > In a free society, Bank of America is free to hire or fire whomever
> > they choose.
> >
>
> That's true, but they want their cake and to eat it, too. They want
> American dollars to make American profits, but they want to get rid of
> Americans in their pursuit of the almighty dollar.
>
benefits Americans.
Or do you have something against rich Americans, maybe want the government
to redistribute the wealth?
You some kind of communist?
> > Anybody who uses force to try and stop them from doing so needs to be
> > shot dead, or blown up with a Ryder truck packed with high explosives.
> >
>
> What a stupid fucking thing to say. If we try to use force of economics,
> or force of legislation to make them change their greedy ways, then we
> should be blown up? Think about what you write before you write it.
>
legislation won't work, economics may. See how many people you can get to
boycott them.
Buck
"Jamie Hart" <theodor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Massa Roy" <mass...@newglobalplantation.org> wrote in message
>news:massa_roy-78867...@news4.uncensored-news.com...
>> In article <CF5OZEPY37643.4289236111@Gilgamesh-frog.org>,
>> Anonymous...@See.Comment.Header (Sovereign Individual) wrote:
>> > In a free society, Bank of America is free to hire or fire whomever
>> > they choose.
>> >
>>
>> That's true, but they want their cake and to eat it, too. They want
>> American dollars to make American profits, but they want to get rid of
>> Americans in their pursuit of the almighty dollar.
>>
>Yeah but the stockholders who benefit from this are mostly American, so it
>benefits Americans.
>
>Or do you have something against rich Americans, maybe want the government
>to redistribute the wealth?
>
>You some kind of communist?
>
Another globalist greedster who thinks that folks who won't do
absolutely ANYTHING for money are commies. She isn't
concerned about the effects of machinations of behemoth
corporations on America because she doesn't care if the
USA is blown to Hell if there's enough profit in it.
My raised middle finger to you, sweetheart.
Russ
wrote:
My job has been outsourced to India. I will find it very difficult in
the future to ever recommend Hewlett-Packard products and services.
Our revenge will come at the hands of the tens of thousands of BOA
customers who will suffer as the result of the massive security
problems that will arise from this. In my case, the client, whose
business is based entirely on intellectual property and computer-aided
manufacturing, will suffer from the loss of the intellectual property.
As they are already on the rocks, this will bring them down and no
more revenue for HP.
Russ
Gunner
>>
>>If the top executives of Bank of Amerika faced a very real prospect of
>>sudden death every time they stepped out in public, they might gain an
>>appreciation of the magnitude of their acts.
>>
>My job has been outsourced to India. I will find it very difficult in
>the future to ever recommend Hewlett-Packard products and services.
>Our revenge will come at the hands of the tens of thousands of BOA
>customers who will suffer as the result of the massive security
>problems that will arise from this. In my case, the client, whose
>business is based entirely on intellectual property and computer-aided
>manufacturing, will suffer from the loss of the intellectual property.
>As they are already on the rocks, this will bring them down and no
>more revenue for HP.
>
>Russ
Gods, I hope you folks put in plenty of back doors and worms
Gunner
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Bob Peterson
"Gunner" <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:40i13v0u93ld18fan...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:33:43 -0500, Russ <carl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>
> >>If the top executives of Bank of Amerika faced a very real prospect of
> >>sudden death every time they stepped out in public, they might gain an
> >>appreciation of the magnitude of their acts.
> >>
> >My job has been outsourced to India. I will find it very difficult in
> >the future to ever recommend Hewlett-Packard products and services.
> >Our revenge will come at the hands of the tens of thousands of BOA
> >customers who will suffer as the result of the massive security
> >problems that will arise from this. In my case, the client, whose
> >business is based entirely on intellectual property and computer-aided
> >manufacturing, will suffer from the loss of the intellectual property.
> >As they are already on the rocks, this will bring them down and no
> >more revenue for HP.
> >
> >Russ
>
> Gods, I hope you folks put in plenty of back doors and worms
>
Why are you suggesting he would act in such an unethical and immoral way?
dan
Dan
Gunner
>
>"Gunner" <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
>news:40i13v0u93ld18fan...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:33:43 -0500, Russ <carl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >>If the top executives of Bank of Amerika faced a very real prospect of
>> >>sudden death every time they stepped out in public, they might gain an
>> >>appreciation of the magnitude of their acts.
>> >>
>> >My job has been outsourced to India. I will find it very difficult in
>> >the future to ever recommend Hewlett-Packard products and services.
>> >Our revenge will come at the hands of the tens of thousands of BOA
>> >customers who will suffer as the result of the massive security
>> >problems that will arise from this. In my case, the client, whose
>> >business is based entirely on intellectual property and computer-aided
>> >manufacturing, will suffer from the loss of the intellectual property.
>> >As they are already on the rocks, this will bring them down and no
>> >more revenue for HP.
>> >
>> >Russ
>>
>> Gods, I hope you folks put in plenty of back doors and worms
>>
>
>Why are you suggesting he would act in such an unethical and immoral way?
>
I guess I forgot to turn on my "human nature" and <sarcasm/on> flags.
Ive dealt with enough software written under those types of situations
to know a bit about "programmers revenge"
Gunner
"The only purpose for a gun is to kill something.
If it has no other purpose,it is useless.
There is no other purpose to having a gun,
other than inflicting lethal force on something."
Milt <mi...@law.com) on misc.survivalism 1-19-03
Gunner
>What do you mean? They did the "right thing." Ask ANY Republican...
>
>Dan
Dan, try Preparation H, it will help shrink your roids, and might even
make a kinder and gentler Leftwing Liberal Shitbag out of you.
Bob Peterson
> "Bob Peterson" <peter...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Gunner" <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
> >news:40i13v0u93ld18fan...@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:33:43 -0500, Russ <carl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>If the top executives of Bank of Amerika faced a very real prospect
of
> >> >>sudden death every time they stepped out in public, they might gain
an
> >> >>appreciation of the magnitude of their acts.
> >> >>
> >> >My job has been outsourced to India. I will find it very difficult in
> >> >the future to ever recommend Hewlett-Packard products and services.
> >> >Our revenge will come at the hands of the tens of thousands of BOA
> >> >customers who will suffer as the result of the massive security
> >> >problems that will arise from this. In my case, the client, whose
> >> >business is based entirely on intellectual property and computer-aided
> >> >manufacturing, will suffer from the loss of the intellectual property.
> >> >As they are already on the rocks, this will bring them down and no
> >> >more revenue for HP.
> >> >
> >> >Russ
> >>
> >> Gods, I hope you folks put in plenty of back doors and worms
> >>
> >
> >Why are you suggesting he would act in such an unethical and immoral way?
> >
>
> I guess I forgot to turn on my "human nature" and <sarcasm/on> flags.
>
> Ive dealt with enough software written under those types of situations
> to know a bit about "programmers revenge"
>
What is there to get revenge about? There is not, nor has there ever been a
right to keep a job you have. Just ask all the buggy whip makers. There
are huge changes going on in this, and other "high tech" fields that will
have massive impact on a lot of highly paid professionals.
The fact is that anyone that would use his position of trust within an
organization to do such a thing is beneath contemp, and ought to be
criminally prosecuted if his handwork causes economic distress to the
employer. Its like burning down a building or grafity, maybe worse though,
since the grafity artist is not generally a trusted employee who turns on
his employer. If he would do this to his employer he would do it to others
as well.
dan
Dan
"Gunner" <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:lbm53vcriq6j2jedl...@4ax.com...
Joe G
(Sovereign Individual)
>"Massa Roy" <mass...@newglobalplantation.org> wrote in <massa_roy-78867...@news4.uncensored-news.com>...
>
>> In article <CF5OZEPY37643.4289236111@Gilgamesh-frog.org>,
>> Anonymous...@See.Comment.Header (Sovereign Individual) wrote:
>>
>> > "Dark Vision" <dark_...@shoot.back> wrote in
>> > <PHS068UO37642.7348148148@anonymous.poster>...
>> > >
>> > > "Iconoclast" <gas...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > ><.> wrote in message news:3e2c...@news.pcmagic.net...
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Bank of America recently completed it's restructuring where it would
>> > > >> fire
>> > > >> it's entire computer programming staff of 3,000 and replace them with
>> > > >> Indian workers in the US and abroad.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> These fired american's were not incompetent, in fact they were required
>> > > >> to
>> > > >> train their replacements.
>> > > >
>> > > >They could have refused. They should have all walked off the job and left
>> > > >the bank in chaos.
>> > > >
>> > > If the top executives of Bank of Amerika faced a very real prospect of
>> > > sudden death every time they stepped out in public, they might gain an
>> > > appreciation of the magnitude of their acts.
>> >
>> > In a free society, Bank of America is free to hire or fire whomever
>> > they choose.
>> >
Although they are not allowed to pay H1-B visa workers less than their
American counterparts - there are ways around this - open up an office
outside of the US, for example.
But to bring in large numbers of H1-B workers, then fire everyone except
them, seems to me to be a violation of law.
(I'm not sure of the specifics of BOA, but this happens all too
frequently.)
>> That's true, but they want their cake and to eat it, too. They want
>> American dollars to make American profits, but they want to get rid of
>> Americans in their pursuit of the almighty dollar.
>
>Because it's cheaper and more profitable to have Turd Worlders do the dirty
>work and the menial tasks while Americans continue to innovate and excel in
>all the high-tech fields, advancing our economy, raising our standard of
>living, and pushing ahead toward the frontiers.
>
>Then there's people like you, who want to drag our economy down by holding
>on to outmoded industries through high tariffs and "fair trade" crap.
>
>> > Anybody who uses force to try and stop them from doing so needs to be
>> > shot dead, or blown up with a Ryder truck packed with high explosives.
>>
>> What a stupid fucking thing to say. If we try to use force of economics,
>> or force of legislation to make them change their greedy ways, then we
>> should be blown up? Think about what you write before you write it.
>
>When I say 'force', I mean 'violent coercion'. You're more than free to
>engage in economic activities such as boycotts and such.
>
>But those who hold a gun to MY head and tells ME who I may trade, hire
>or interact with needs to be killed.
>
>> > - Sovereign Individual
>>
>> Oh, I see. Your one of those. LOL
>> Roy
>
>Yeah, an advocate of freedom and liberty. Imagine that.
>
>- Sovereign Individual
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