3g data - too damn expensive
Robert Kent
iPhone/iPad service and replaced it with a plan that costs $10 per gigabyte.
Similar plans for laptops cost much more.
How can they justify charging so much?
Is this likely to change anytime soon?
nospam
<rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> ?Does anyone know why 3g costs so much? AT&T eliminated their unlimited
> iPhone/iPad service and replaced it with a plan that costs $10 per gigabyte.
> Similar plans for laptops cost much more.
>
> How can they justify charging so much?
because people pay it.
> Is this likely to change anytime soon?
not unless people stop paying for the current plans.
Allistar
Lucky you. My 3G provider (Vodafone NZ) charges NZD $20 for 250Mb.
--
A.
Chris
share out but then they will need to recoup the cost of rolling out 4G.
Probably need more competition to drive down costs.
--
Chris
Chris
as there is in the rest of the world where more than one operator
carries the iPhone for instance. Virtually every carrier in the UK has
the iPhone for instance and as a result a big choice of plan and
associated range of costs.
--
Chris
Sythos
H3G italy ask €5,00 for 4GB/month (as addon to voice contract)... and is
faster than cable DSL (avarage of italy, 4Mbps, the lowest in europe...)
JF Mezei
> How can they justify charging so much?
Shareholders expect large companies to chargte as much as the market
will bear, As long as people continue to buy the epxnesive data
packages, the large companies will keep on raising prices and lowering
the service. Unfortunatly, Wall Street Casino Analysts now measure such
companies with expectations of increasing ARPU instead of increased
profits. (ARPU: Average revenue per customer)
Fred
news:ibpgoi$4km$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
Here's the main culprit. This lobby talks with one voice for all of them
and has vast resources to buy off politicians and regulators at the Fed
level. The ruse of "competition" between carriers is just bullshit if
you look closely at CTIA they all belong to.
CTIA is to sellphones what RIAA is to CDs and MPAA is to movies.
Competition my ass......
Salgud
>
>> Is this likely to change anytime soon?
>
> not unless people stop paying for the current plans.
Which would mean giving up their iPhones, which most don't want to do. It's
pretty difficult to call AT&T and say, "I'm not paying $20/mo for 2 Gb of
data." They'll just turn off your service.
Let's face it, unless it was $1/mo, many users would complain. Considering
what I get for my $20/mo, it's pretty reasonable. I can check the best way
to go somewhere and get realtime traffic data on Google maps, I can look
for a good Italian restaurant in the area, I can look for a movie to see,
check showtimes, and buy my ticket, and I can find virtually any kind of
business I might need close-by, if there is one (like when my bike tire
went down and I was in an unfamiliar part of town, without an air pump, and
needed to find compressed air). I can stream unlimited amounts of every
kind of music know to man. And that's just a few of the things my internet
connection does for me. There's also online games, email, SMS, all kinds of
location services, and so on. And I'm going to bitch about what a rip-off
it is? To me, it's a bargain. YMMV. Obviously, there wouldn't be so many of
us paying for it if it wasn't worth it. I do miss out on the sheer joy of
bitching about it endlessly though!
nospam
<spamb...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> Is this likely to change anytime soon?
> >
> > not unless people stop paying for the current plans.
>
> Which would mean giving up their iPhones, which most don't want to do. It's
> pretty difficult to call AT&T and say, "I'm not paying $20/mo for 2 Gb of
> data." They'll just turn off your service.
which means they can pretty much charge whatever the hell they want and
know that very few would bother giving it up, regardless of how much
people bitch.
Mike Jacoubowsky
"Chris" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:RvOdneL5ffEt-X3R...@bt.com...
Could you give an example of what a 2GB plan with unlimited SMS and 750
minutes would run? Just curious how things compare.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
JF Mezei
> Which would mean giving up their iPhones, which most don't want to do. It's
> pretty difficult to call AT&T and say, "I'm not paying $20/mo for 2 Gb of
> data." They'll just turn off your service.
I purchased an unlocked iPhone from Apple (in Canada, they are
available). Maintained my old legacy account with Fido, which has a $5
for 6 meg data package (permits thethering). This is no no longer
offered and the first data packages start at $25/month.
I normally have the 3g data turned off since I don't trust the iphone
(and its apps) abusing it. When I need access, I turn it on and use
Opera to access mobile web sites without images.
This serves me sufficiently so far. Basically the same data use as I had
with my sony ericsson phone, except for email because I doN't trust the
Mail application to only generate traffic when I tell it to.
the iphone was designed for unlimited data packages. Other phones were
designed for real world packages with limits.
Salgud
Since, in reality, they charge $25/mo for 2G of data, and as much as many
use it, it's quite reasonable. But you're right, they could charge more and
get away with it, so it's a fun thing to bitch about.
Salgud
> I normally have the 3g data turned off since I don't trust the iphone
> (and its apps) abusing it. When I need access, I turn it on and use
> Opera to access mobile web sites without images.
Good thinking. Back when I had my iPhone, I caught it one day, down in the
basement. Had poor old 3G tied to a chair, beating it with a rubber hose!
But I removed the "Abuse Your 3G" app, and it hasn't happened since.
Your Name
<rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> said:
>
> ?Does anyone know why 3g costs so much? AT&T eliminated their unlimited
> iPhone/iPad service and replaced it with a plan that costs $10 per
> gigabyte. Similar plans for laptops cost much more.
It's not just 3G. The price of any broadband connection (landline,
satellite, mobile, etc.) are all ridiculously over-priced ... and here in
New Zealand seem to be rising!! It's the greedy ISPs / telecom companies who
are to blame by goughing customers who want the newest toy on the block.
:-(
Robert Kent
agencies create their own wireless networks?
I thought WiMax was supposed to offer cheap wireless broadband to the
masses. What happened?
"Your Name" wrote in message news:ibs578$ugj$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
David Empson
> In message news:ibpgoi$4km$1...@news.eternal-september.org, "Robert Kent"
> <rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> said:
> >
> > ?Does anyone know why 3g costs so much? AT&T eliminated their unlimited
> > iPhone/iPad service and replaced it with a plan that costs $10 per
> > gigabyte. Similar plans for laptops cost much more.
>
> It's not just 3G. The price of any broadband connection (landline,
> satellite, mobile, etc.) are all ridiculously over-priced ... and here in
> New Zealand seem to be rising!!
I agree about the ridiculously overpriced, but not about the rising
cost. Apart from when I've switched ISPs and/or wanted a bigger data
cap, my broadband costs have remained steady ever since I got broadband,
and over time I've got more data for the same amount of money.
My TelstraClear (NZ) cable connection just got a few dollars a month
cheaper and doubled in bandwidth cap (now 40 GB). If I wanted to keep my
previous limit, I could save even more.
Admittedly the cheapest (lower data cap) TelstraClear cable packages got
a little more expensive, but they now include twice as much data.
Broadband prices from other companies just went up slightly because GST
increased from 12.5% to 15% as of 1 October.
For my iPhone 3GS (32 GB model, bought in mid 2009), I'm paying NZ$40 a
month for a Vodafone iPhone plan (now $41 a month with the GST
increase). It originally included 20 minutes of outgoing calls, 100 text
messages and 250 MB of data, and with a two year contract gave me a $450
discount on the full price of the iPhone (normally $1350). A few months
ago, the plan changed to include 30 minutes and 300 texts.
When the iPhone 3GS was introduced, Vodafone added a sweetener where you
get 3 GB a month of data instead of 250 MB, for no additional charge.
This was supposed to be a short term special, but it has been renewed
ever since then and is currently open ended (but with a warning that it
could be removed at any time).
Even using my iPhone for tethering and doing some big downloads in some
months, I have yet to use more than 2.5 GB in a single month, and I
normally use less than 2 GB.
> It's the greedy ISPs / telecom companies who are to blame by goughing
> customers who want the newest toy on the block.
You need to shop around a little more. It is a matter of finding the
best deal for your usage pattern.
Given that I wanted an iPhone anyway, Vodafone's iPhone $40 plan on two
year contract saved me money compared to sticking with my previous
(cheaper) plan and buying the iPhone at full price, or anything I could
get from Telecom. Any data included in the plan is effectively free (as
long as I don't exceed the 3 GB limit).
For my iPad, I went with Telecom Mobile Broadband 500 prepaid, which
works out cheaper than anything Vodafone is offering for up to 500 MB
per month, which fits my usage pattern nicely. For the last two months,
Telecom has increased the data cap on this plan to 1.5 GB for no extra
cost. I expect to be using the iPad on 3G more heavily later this month,
and I won't have to worry about the data cap.
If I use less than 200 MB per month (typical) then the Telecom prepaid
plan is cheaper than Vodafone's $20 iPad plan. Vodafone is only cheaper
if I use between 200 and 250 MB every month (and never go over 250 MB).
I haven't had a close look at 2degrees, but they recently had a big drop
in the prices of their data plans.
--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz
Your Name
dem...@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) wrote:
> Your Name <your...@isp.com> wrote:
> > In message news:ibpgoi$4km$1...@news.eternal-september.org, "Robert Kent"
> > <rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> said:
> > >
> > > ?Does anyone know why 3g costs so much? AT&T eliminated their unlimited
> > > iPhone/iPad service and replaced it with a plan that costs $10 per
> > > gigabyte. Similar plans for laptops cost much more.
> >
> > It's not just 3G. The price of any broadband connection (landline,
> > satellite, mobile, etc.) are all ridiculously over-priced ... and here in
> > New Zealand seem to be rising!!
>
> I agree about the ridiculously overpriced, but not about the rising
> cost. Apart from when I've switched ISPs and/or wanted a bigger data
> cap, my broadband costs have remained steady ever since I got broadband,
> and over time I've got more data for the same amount of money.
When I first looked at getting broadband the price of the cheapest, usable
option was about NZ$40 - NZ$50 per month (without toll call plans) ...
it's now NZ$80 - NZ$90 per month, and that was before the October rise in
Government Stupidity Tax.
Yes, the current plans are (supposedly) faster and have higher data caps,
but then it is a few years later and there is no option to choose a
cheaper, slower plan.
> > It's the greedy ISPs / telecom companies who are to blame by goughing
> > customers who want the newest toy on the block.
>
> You need to shop around a little more. It is a matter of finding the
> best deal for your usage pattern.
There's little real difference between ISP broadband pricing. That's
mostly thanks to Telescum NZ still having the strangle hold on the lines
and overseas data - they set the price and the other ISPs have no choice
but to pay it and pass it on.
Your Name
<rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> "Your Name" wrote in message news:ibs578$ugj$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> > In message news:ibpgoi$4km$1...@news.eternal-september.org, "Robert Kent"
> > <rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> said:
> > >
> > > ?Does anyone know why 3g costs so much? AT&T eliminated their unlimited
> > > iPhone/iPad service and replaced it with a plan that costs $10 per
> > > gigabyte. Similar plans for laptops cost much more.
> >
> > It's not just 3G. The price of any broadband connection (landline,
> > satellite, mobile, etc.) are all ridiculously over-priced ... and here in
> > New Zealand seem to be rising!! It's the greedy ISPs / telecom companies who
> > are to blame by goughing customers who want the newest toy on the block.
> > :-(
>
> agencies create their own wireless networks?
The Government should never have sold Telecom in the first place, not any
of the other public service like electricy, water, etc.
> I thought WiMax was supposed to offer cheap wireless broadband to the
> masses. What happened?
No idea, but wireless is on average slower than a wired connection.
Allistar
> In article <ibs6ed$idq$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Robert Kent"
> <rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>> "Your Name" wrote in message news:ibs578$ugj$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>> > In message news:ibpgoi$4km$1...@news.eternal-september.org, "Robert Kent"
>> > <rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> said:
>> > >
>> > > ?Does anyone know why 3g costs so much? AT&T eliminated their
>> > > unlimited iPhone/iPad service and replaced it with a plan that costs
>> > > $10 per gigabyte. Similar plans for laptops cost much more.
>> >
>> > It's not just 3G. The price of any broadband connection (landline,
>> > satellite, mobile, etc.) are all ridiculously over-priced ... and here
>> > in New Zealand seem to be rising!! It's the greedy ISPs / telecom
>> > companies who are to blame by goughing customers who want the newest
>> > toy on the block.
>> > :-(
>>
>> ?So what's the solution? Should government get involved? Could non-profit
>> agencies create their own wireless networks?
>
> The Government should never have sold Telecom in the first place, not any
> of the other public service like electricy, water, etc.
On that we disagree. Do you really think we'd have cheaper broadband or with
as wide a spread user base if the state still owned it? They should have
sold it, but they should have sold the lines company independently to the
server provision company. That would have allowed for much more competition.
>> I thought WiMax was supposed to offer cheap wireless broadband to the
>> masses. What happened?
>
> No idea, but wireless is on average slower than a wired connection.
--
A.
Your Name
<m...@hiddenaddress.com> wrote:
> Your Name wrote:
> > In article <ibs6ed$idq$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Robert Kent"
> > <rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> >> "Your Name" wrote in message news:ibs578$ugj$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> >> > In message news:ibpgoi$4km$1...@news.eternal-september.org, "Robert Kent"
> >> > <rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> said:
> >> > >
> >> > > ?Does anyone know why 3g costs so much? AT&T eliminated their
> >> > > unlimited iPhone/iPad service and replaced it with a plan that costs
> >> > > $10 per gigabyte. Similar plans for laptops cost much more.
> >> >
> >> > It's not just 3G. The price of any broadband connection (landline,
> >> > satellite, mobile, etc.) are all ridiculously over-priced ... and here
> >> > in New Zealand seem to be rising!! It's the greedy ISPs / telecom
> >> > companies who are to blame by goughing customers who want the newest
> >> > toy on the block.
> >> > :-(
> >>
> >> ?So what's the solution? Should government get involved? Could non-profit
> >> agencies create their own wireless networks?
> >
> > The Government should never have sold Telecom in the first place, not any
>
> On that we disagree. Do you really think we'd have cheaper broadband or with
> as wide a spread user base if the state still owned it? They should have
> sold it, but they should have sold the lines company independently to the
> server provision company. That would have allowed for much more competition.
There wouldn't be any competition - there never really is.
No matter who owns it would still only be one "big business" company
holding all the lines, exchanges, etc. that is solely interetsed in
stuffing manager and shareholder pockets. That company would charge all
the ISPs / telecom companies the same, so they would charge the same to
their customers.
Public services should be owned by the public / government, never greedy
"big business".
Wes Groleau
> Public services should be owned by the public / government, never greedy
> "big business".
I agree. Then we wouldn't have prices too high and
service too poor because of greed.
We'd have prices too high and service too poor
because of incompetence.
--
Wes Groleau
Your Name
"Wes Groleau" <Grolea...@FreeShell.org> wrote in message
news:ibsufj$icf$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 11-15-2010 22:36, Your Name wrote:
> >
> > Public services should be owned by the public / government, never greedy
> > "big business".
>
> I agree. Then we wouldn't have prices too high and
> service too poor because of greed.
>
> We'd have prices too high and service too poor
> because of incompetence.
Almost all of the people in charge of "big business" are incompetent too ...
and then they become politicians. :-(
Chris
deals start at £15 pm see
http://www.simonlycontracts.co.uk/best-iphone-sim-only-deals.html for
examples. My plan that I took out before the caps came in for iPhone 4
is £15 pm for unlimited 3G, WiFi, texts and 300 minutes. Never use all
the minutes.
--
Chris
Chris
--
Chris
Your Name
<nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
No more so than many other "smartphones".
Your Name
"Lewis" <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote in message
news:slrnie6vqb....@ibook-g4.local...
> In message <ibs578$ugj$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz>
> Korea.
>
> ISPs are still raping their customers in the US. I am paying $60/m for
> 15mbit/2mbit, but I am completely unmetered (really unmetered, I've
> transfered over 600GB in some months).
Thanks to the hopeless telephone system that (until recently) hasn't really
had any money spent on upgrading it in decades, New Zealand ISPs don't even
advertise a speed for their broadband plans ... they simply say "as fast as
your line allows". Added to that, all plans are data capped, when you go
over your limit some plans slow you down to dial-up speeds while other
require a "add-on data pack" (and any unused data usually does not rollover
to the following month). Some plans also purposely restrict the speed of
what the ISP thinks is file-sharing data. :-\
Allistar
The issue here is lack of competition, regardless of who owns it. And you
can never have competition while the state owns it.
--
A.
Your Name
If the state owns it, then it should be run as a non-profit /
not-for-profit organisation and therefore you don't need the silliness of
so-called "competition".
Allistar
It's competition that encourages companies to innovate. With no competition
there is much less innovation, which means less benefit to the end user in
both price and features. This is true whether there is a private monopoly or
a public one.
--
A.
SMS
> ?Does anyone know why 3g costs so much? AT&T eliminated their unlimited
> iPhone/iPad service and replaced it with a plan that costs $10 per gigabyte.
> Similar plans for laptops cost much more.
>
>
> Is this likely to change anytime soon?
It's the oil company law of supply and demand:
"We have all the supply, so we can demand whatever the %$%& we want."
All the new smart phones, and the iPad, have Wi-Fi but few people would
bother to use Wi-Fi when it was available if data was unlimited. The
tiered pricing is intended to "encourage" users to be more frugal with
their 3G data, using Wi-Fi when available, and avoiding frivolous data
usage. This is bad news for companies whose business plans were
predicated on unlimited data plans. Prior to the AT&T change to tiered
data Pandora was saying "Clearly, the more expensive the [mobile]
bandwidth, the worse it is for us." After the change to tiered data
Pandora said: "less than 1/2 of a percent of our users would be affected
by the 2-gigabyte cap." What they _didn't_ say is how many users would
be affected by a 200MB cap, or how many users will now decline to
upgrade to the paid version of Pandora because of the higher bit rate.
Now Verizon also has a 150MB plan, but they didn't drop their unlimited
plan--yet.
SMS
> Robert Kent wrote:
>
>> How can they justify charging so much?
>
> will bear, As long as people continue to buy the epxnesive data
> packages, the large companies will keep on raising prices and lowering
> the service. Unfortunatly, Wall Street Casino Analysts now measure such
> companies with expectations of increasing ARPU instead of increased
> profits. (ARPU: Average revenue per customer)
However lower data prices can increase ARPU. AT&T made a conscious
decision to try to bring data to the late adopters using their $15 200MB
plan, and the 2GB plan is $25 rather than $30 for unlimited. Since very
few users use more than 2GB, this means lower data ARPU, but since a lot
more voice users are now adding data the overall ARPU will probably go up.
SMS
In the U.S. you can get 1200 minutes/1200 messages/50MB of data for
$27-30 a month (but not with the iPhone yet since it's on Verizon's
network). 50MB isn't a lot, but remember that free Wi-Fi is widely
available, most corporate offices have guest Wi-Fi, hotels, restaurants,
hospitals, malls, libraries, coffee houses, even many parks, provide
Wi-Fi. With unlimited 3G data no one bothers with the hassle of Wi-Fi,
but with the new tiered data plans those that are conscious of their
monthly costs might be willing to use data more judiciously. Right now I
have $0.60/MB data. I use it whenever I need to use it, and don't run up
huge data bills. But I'm not streaming Pandora or watching videos. This
obviously isn't for everyone, some people really need large amounts of
data for their jobs, but most people are just using so much data because
they're on an unlimited plan so they feel they're entitled to it (and
they are).
Salgud
> (but not with the iPhone yet since it's on Verizon's
> network)
I think you meant AT&T's network.
Salgud
> It's the oil company law of supply and demand:
>
> "We have all the supply, so we can demand whatever the %$%& we want."
Then explain to me why we pay less than $3/gal here, and gas is almost
double that in most of Europe and Asia?
Doug Anderson
Your question has nothing to do with SMS's assertion, which I assume
was tongue-in-cheek anyway, as oil actually does seem to obey the
conventional law of supply and demand.
The reason gas prices are different in different countries is that
some countries tax gas heavily for a combination of reasons including
to increase revenue, discourage petroleum use, fund public
transportation, account for the real cost to the environment, etc.
The US taxes gas much more lightly.
Salgud
Yes, gas does seem to obey the law of supply and demand, which means the
oil companies can't charge whatever they like. The statement is ridiculous.
Salgud
> In article <NqednRaSZ6nSdnnR...@giganews.com>,
> Allistar <m...@hiddenaddress.com> wrote:
>
>> It's competition that encourages companies to innovate. With no
>> competition there is much less innovation, which means less benefit to
>> the end user in both price and features. This is true whether there is a
>> private monopoly or a public one.
>
> That's right. If it weren't for the Macintosh, people would still be using
> ProDOS on Apple II computers or MS DOS 3.0 on IBM and IBM clone computers.
Of course. If the iSteve hadn't taken the GUI from Xerox, no other human
being could have. Or even thought something very much like it on their own.
Absolutely! Only the iSteve!
nospam
<spamb...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> It's competition that encourages companies to innovate. With no
> >> competition there is much less innovation, which means less benefit to
> >> the end user in both price and features. This is true whether there is a
> >> private monopoly or a public one.
> >
> > That's right. If it weren't for the Macintosh, people would still be using
> > ProDOS on Apple II computers or MS DOS 3.0 on IBM and IBM clone computers.
>
> Of course. If the iSteve hadn't taken the GUI from Xerox, no other human
> being could have. Or even thought something very much like it on their own.
> Absolutely! Only the iSteve!
he did not 'take' it, they *gave* it to him in exchange for stock.
Salgud
Sorry, didn't mean to demean the iSteve. :)
SMS
Because the extra cost in Europe is due to extremely high fuel taxes
which help fund mass transit, among other things, not because the oil
companies there are charging more.
The best thing the U.S. could do to for the long-term health of the
economy would be to reduce oil imports by charging higher fuel taxes.
SMS
> In article<1q2sxdi39aq8x.k...@40tude.net>,
> Salgud<spamb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Yes, gas does seem to obey the law of supply and demand, which means the
>> oil companies can't charge whatever they like. The statement is
>> ridiculous.
>
> charge whatever they like.
One of the most popular ways they do this is by reducing refinery capacity.
nospam
<michelle-CD452C...@62-183-169-81.bb.dnainternet.fi>,
Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:
> > Yes, gas does seem to obey the law of supply and demand, which means the
> > oil companies can't charge whatever they like. The statement is
> > ridiculous.
>
> The gas companies can adjust the supply to their benefit, so they can
> charge whatever they like.
oh no they can't. gas prices went up after katrina and gas stations
were cited for gauging.
Your Name
"Allistar" <m...@hiddenaddress.com> wrote in message
news:NqednRaSZ6nSdnnR...@giganews.com...
>
> It's competition that encourages companies to innovate. With no
competition
> there is much less innovation, which means less benefit to the end user in
> both price and features. This is true whether there is a private monopoly
or
> a public one.
Not really true. Apple is the best example which has no real competition.
They create innovative products and product categories all by themselves,
which other companies then rush around to copy, and usually do so badly.
Your Name
"Salgud" <spamb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1umri8tgqty23.1lbrtqyo9a387$.dlg@40tude.net...
Partly because America has their own (if more limited) supply, while Europe
and Asia have to import from the greedy American and Arab companies, plus of
course the shipping costs.
Your Name
"SMS" <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:4ce58269$0$22117$742e...@news.sonic.net...
That's is another reason. In New Zealand we have to pay for the petrol plus
a petrol tax, plus the Government Sales Tax on the petrol AND the petrol tax
(a tax on a tax, only greedy morons in government would get away with such a
scam!). :-(
Doug Anderson
> "Salgud" <spamb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:1umri8tgqty23.1lbrtqyo9a387$.dlg@40tude.net...
> > On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 06:06:30 -0800, SMS wrote:
> >
> > > It's the oil company law of supply and demand:
> > >
> > > "We have all the supply, so we can demand whatever the %$%& we want."
> >
> > Then explain to me why we pay less than $3/gal here, and gas is almost
> > double that in most of Europe and Asia?
>
> Partly because America has their own (if more limited) supply,
No, that isn't even partly the explanation.
> while Europe
> and Asia have to import from the greedy American and Arab companies, plus of
> course the shipping costs.
Of course it is true that the oil companies are greedy. It isn't true
that petroleum costs significantly less in America than in Europe. It
is true that European governments (wisely) tax gasoline (or petrol if
you prefer) much more heavily than in the US.
Bert Hyman
<spamb...@comcast.net> wrote:
Taxes.
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN be...@iphouse.com
Your Name
<ethelthelo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Your Name" <your...@isp.com> writes:
>
> > "Salgud" <spamb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:1umri8tgqty23.1lbrtqyo9a387$.dlg@40tude.net...
> > > On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 06:06:30 -0800, SMS wrote:
> > >
> > > > It's the oil company law of supply and demand:
> > > >
> > > > "We have all the supply, so we can demand whatever the %$%& we want."
> > >
> > > Then explain to me why we pay less than $3/gal here, and gas is almost
> > > double that in most of Europe and Asia?
> >
> > Partly because America has their own (if more limited) supply,
>
> No, that isn't even partly the explanation.
Of course it is. America has it's own supply of oil, therefore they don't
need to import as much.
> > while Europe
> > and Asia have to import from the greedy American and Arab companies, plus of
> > course the shipping costs.
>
> Of course it is true that the oil companies are greedy. It isn't true
> that petroleum costs significantly less in America than in Europe. It
> is true that European governments (wisely) tax gasoline (or petrol if
> you prefer) much more heavily than in the US.
Wisely?!? Try stupidly. The New Zealand government taxes petrol and tells
everyone it's to be used in roading projects ... and then they go wasting
it on railways, bus lanes, etc. which not only do not benefit the road
users paying the tax, but some actually hinders them!
Even worse, the idiotic taxes are so ridiculous that the supposedly
cheaper, "better" diesel actually costs more than petrol!
Allistar
Apple has no real competition? That's nonsense.
--
A.
Doug Anderson
> In article <8naal62...@ethel.the.log>, Doug Anderson
> <ethelthelo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Your Name" <your...@isp.com> writes:
> >
> > > "Salgud" <spamb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > news:1umri8tgqty23.1lbrtqyo9a387$.dlg@40tude.net...
> > > > On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 06:06:30 -0800, SMS wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > It's the oil company law of supply and demand:
> > > > >
> > > > > "We have all the supply, so we can demand whatever the %$%& we want."
> > > >
> > > > Then explain to me why we pay less than $3/gal here, and gas is almost
> > > > double that in most of Europe and Asia?
> > >
> > > Partly because America has their own (if more limited) supply,
> >
> > No, that isn't even partly the explanation.
>
> Of course it is. America has it's own supply of oil, therefore they don't
> need to import as much.
It is true that both the US and Canada produce some oil. It is false
that this oil is sold more cheaply in the US than imported oil.
In other words, the fact that North American countries produce some
oil has nothing to do with the reasons gasoline is cheaper in North
America.
Wes Groleau
> (a tax on a tax, only greedy morons in government would get away with such a
> scam!). :-(
Who are the morons, the politicians that are getting away with it?
or Whee! The People! who are letting them get away with it?
--
Wes Groleau
Hostility to TPRS
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/barrett?itemid=1596
Your Name
<ethelthelo...@gmail.com> wrote:
I never said local oil was sold more cheaply than imported oil (as of
itself). I said local oil means they don't need to import as much oil.
Importing will add the cost of shipping, etc., so the imported oil will
cost more in total ... when you combine the two you get an average lower
price.
Your Name
Grolea...@FreeShell.org wrote:
> On 11-18-2010 15:16, Your Name wrote:
> > (a tax on a tax, only greedy morons in government would get away with such a
> > scam!). :-(
>
> Who are the morons, the politicians that are getting away with it?
> or Whee! The People! who are letting them get away with it?
All policitians are greedy, selfish morons. Until yesterday's law change,
the morons in New Zealand's Parliament were allowed tax payer funded air
fares FOR LIFE!! Not just when they are actually members of parliament,
but until they die! And now they no longer get that perk, they're on about
basically giving themselves a pay raise, as if the obscene amounts they
already get paid weren't enough. :-(
Wes Groleau
Yeah, they're dumb like a fox.
Rob me once, shame on you. Rob me twice, shame on me.
--
Wes Groleau
Thinking It Through
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/WWW?itemid=476
Robert Kent
"Bert Hyman" wrote in message
news:Xns9E34A961FA3...@216.250.188.140...
In news:1umri8tgqty23.1lbrtqyo9a387$.d...@40tude.net Salgud
<spamb...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 06:06:30 -0800, SMS wrote:
>
>> It's the oil company law of supply and demand:
>>
>> "We have all the supply, so we can demand whatever the %$%& we want."
>
> Then explain to me why we pay less than $3/gal here, and gas is almost
> double that in most of Europe and Asia?
-Taxes.
But they get something for all those taxes - things like free health care
and a really good transit system. Hardly anyone over there needs to own a
car.
Robert Kent
"nospam" wrote in message news:141120101538079221%nos...@nospam.invalid...
In article <ibpgoi$4km$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Robert Kent
<rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> ?Does anyone know why 3g costs so much? AT&T eliminated their unlimited
> iPhone/iPad service and replaced it with a plan that costs $10 per
> gigabyte.
> Similar plans for laptops cost much more.
>
> How can they justify charging so much?
because people pay it.
> Is this likely to change anytime soon?
not unless people stop paying for the current plans.
I just found out today that Virgin Mobile (US) recently introduced an
unlimited plan for $40 US. If they can do it, why can't everyone else?
The best part - no contract! Use it one month and turn it off the next and
back on a month later with no penalty.
Your Name
"Wes Groleau" <Grolea...@FreeShell.org> wrote in message
news:ic4sgs$2tl$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Unfortunately there's no box on voting papers to say "None of the above -
get rid of all of them". :-(
To make matters worse, here in the city of Auckland we had five / six local
councils with their own mayors, etc., but on 1 October they created one
"supercity" council and one mayor. Not only did the outging idiots waste
piles of money, but now the incoming idiots are wasting piles of money as
well. x-(
Your Name
It's not really competition (in the sense of pushing a company to be
innovative) when all the other companies simply make clone products by
stealing / badly copying Apple's own innovations.
Robert Kent
"Your Name" wrote in message news:ic51b2$3a0$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
Many of Apple's ideas were stolen from others - mostly from Xerox.
Xerox invented the concept of a GUI. Steve Jobs was invited to tour Xerox
and he saw the Xerox Star on display. He took some notes and when back to
Apple to create both the Lisa and the Mac.
Xerox also invented page description languages (the mother of Postscript and
PDF) and Ethernet networking.
nospam
<rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> Many of Apple's ideas were stolen from others - mostly from Xerox.
nope. xerox gave it to apple in exchange for stock.
> Xerox invented the concept of a GUI. Steve Jobs was invited to tour Xerox
> and he saw the Xerox Star on display. He took some notes and when back to
> Apple to create both the Lisa and the Mac.
with their blessing.
> Xerox also invented page description languages (the mother of Postscript and
> PDF) and Ethernet networking.
and your point is what?
nospam
<michelle-AA74E0...@62-183-169-81.bb.dnainternet.fi>,
Michelle Steiner <mich...@michelle.org> wrote:
> > Xerox invented the concept of a GUI. Steve Jobs was invited to tour
> > Xerox and he saw the Xerox Star on display. He took some notes and when
> > back to Apple to create both the Lisa and the Mac.
>
> Wrong. Xerox gave Apple the GUI in exchange for Apple stock. Oh, the
> concept of the menu bar and window controls was Apple's; the Xerox Star
> didn't have them.
actually there was some sort of menubar but nothing like how the mac
did it. i did use a star long ago, but i don't remember what was in its
menubar
the mac also added overlapping windows and a much, much better user
interface. anyone who says the mac was nothing more than a ripoff of
the star definitely did not use the star and probably doesn't use a mac
either.
ironically enough, microsoft word for the mac resembled the word
processor on the star in a number of ways, so if anyone stole anything,
it was microsoft.
Bert Hyman
<rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> Hardly anyone over there needs to own a
> car.
I take it you don't get out much.
My own experience in Europe, even in Norway, was traffic to rival
anything I see in the US.
Doug Anderson
You are just wrong.
Again, the reason the price is lower in North America is because of
taxes. It has nothing to do with the small amount of local
production, or with the costs of shipping oil.
The oil companies know perfectly well they can charge the same amount
for a barrel of oil whether they pump it out of the Gulf of Mexico, or
whether they tanker it in from Saudi Arabia or Venezuala.
Brian Gregory [UK]
news:0npce6taqufc9j96h...@4ax.com...
>A friend has the Iphone 4 and she is on Virgin (PAYG with DD auto
> topup) which charges about 30p/day for 25MB/day.
>
> OK, you cannot watch videos etc on 25MB/day but for any "normal
> person's" usage this is plenty. You can download the google map data,
> download Memory Map data, get your email, browse the web, and the 25MB
> should cover that.
>
> Vodafone do a similar (but predictably more pricey) thing where you
> get 50MB/day for £1/day, or you can buy a 30 day data bundle (UK only,
> no roaming) for £5 which gives you 250MB for the month. Again, no
> dodgy videos.... ;)
>
> If you want to watch movies then you need one of those "unlimited, but
> with a fair usage policy" plans which the Iphone was fairly obviously
> designed to be used with.
>
> I think T-Mobile do one for about a tenner a month (2GB/month or so).
> I am on a T-M contract for £10/month, get 100 texts and 100 mins free,
> and "unlimited" data which is probably a few GB. I find this contract
> is cheaper than any PAYG deal I had been on the previous 10 years.
>
> There are others of course but I have not researched it.
>
> In Europe, you get hit severely when you travel abroad.
>
> For the EU, you can buy EU data bundles (e.g. T-M do a 50MB 30 day one
> for £10 BUT IF THE SIM CARD WAS BOUGHT WITH A **USB ADAPTOR** THEN THE
> £10 LASTS JUST 24 HOURS) and with some companies you get NO data
> connectivity abroad until you purchase this bundle (irritating).
>
> For non-EU, it is always very expensive, around £5-10/MB, and the best
> solution is a Huawei E585 GPRS/3G to WIFI radio into which you stick a
> locally bought SIM card, paid up for data, and it gives you a wifi
> access point.
>
> This
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003X8LXMU/ref=oss_product
>
> is the dog's b0llocks however for getting WIFI. Mine picks up more
> unsecured wifi access points than I could possibly use, anywhere I go.
> Just have to be slightly "covert" when using it, but it isn't that
> directional and would work fine sitting in e.g. a backpack when you
> are sitting in a cafe. It is very small and weighs nothing.
That is built like a yagi aerial which certainly *should* be highly
directional, though the beam part looks much too thick for the little
elements mounted on it.
The name and photos also suggest it puts out way more RF power than is legal
which is pretty pointless since the hotspots you try to connect to are
presumably only putting out the normal power and it achieves nothing if
distant hotspots can hear receive you but you can't receive them.
--
Brian Gregory. (In the UK)
n...@bgdsv.co.uk
To email me remove the letter vee.
Brian Gregory [UK]
news:0npce6taqufc9j96h...@4ax.com...
>A friend has the Iphone 4 and she is on Virgin (PAYG with DD auto
> topup) which charges about 30p/day for 25MB/day.
>
> OK, you cannot watch videos etc on 25MB/day but for any "normal
> person's" usage this is plenty. You can download the google map data,
> download Memory Map data, get your email, browse the web, and the 25MB
> should cover that.
>
> Vodafone do a similar (but predictably more pricey) thing where you
> get 50MB/day for £1/day, or you can buy a 30 day data bundle (UK only,
> no roaming) for £5 which gives you 250MB for the month. Again, no
> dodgy videos.... ;)
>
> If you want to watch movies then you need one of those "unlimited, but
> with a fair usage policy" plans which the Iphone was fairly obviously
> designed to be used with.
>
> I think T-Mobile do one for about a tenner a month (2GB/month or so).
> I am on a T-M contract for £10/month, get 100 texts and 100 mins free,
> and "unlimited" data which is probably a few GB. I find this contract
> is cheaper than any PAYG deal I had been on the previous 10 years.
>
> There are others of course but I have not researched it.
I'm on a Vodafone 30 day rolling contract which for £10 gives me 100 minutes
and 500 texts and I pay an extra £5 for up to 500MB data per month.
Robert Kent
"Bert Hyman" wrote in message
news:Xns9E355579E97...@216.250.188.141...
In news:ic4ukd$b2i$1...@news.eternal-september.org "Robert Kent"
<rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> Hardly anyone over there needs to own a
> car.
I take it you don't get out much.
My own experience in Europe, even in Norway, was traffic to rival
anything I see in the US.
Most European cities have efficient transit systems. The people who live
there can get along without a car. Just like most of NYC.
Bert Hyman
<rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> ?
!
[Either your news client is broken or you're using it in a strange way;
there's nothing in your followup to indicate what's yours and what was
in the original post.]
--
Bert Hyman
<rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
I repeat: My own personal experience in several mid-size to large
European cities showed me traffic that was on par with that in any
similar size American city.
alexd
Gregory [UK] chose the tried and tested strategy of:
> The name and photos also suggest it puts out way more RF power than is
> legal which is pretty pointless since the hotspots you try to connect to
> are presumably only putting out the normal power and it achieves nothing
> if distant hotspots can hear receive you but you can't receive them.
AKA an 'alligator' - big mouth, tiny ears.
--
<http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEs...@ale.cx)
17:39:48 up 18 days, 21:10, 7 users, load average: 0.00, 0.20, 0.53
"I am utterly appalled at how I have been treated like a criminal"
-- Andrew Crossley, ACS:Law, 13 August 2010
Robert Kent
"Bert Hyman" wrote in message
news:Xns9E35750725...@216.250.188.141...
--
That was their choice. The locals have an option to go without a car if they
wanted to. Most Americans don't have that choice - most cities here have
horrible transit systems.
Doug Anderson
Making it important that they have good public transport systems!
JF Mezei
> Xerox also invented page description languages (the mother of Postscript and
> PDF) and Ethernet networking.
Sidenote: Ethernet was a joint effort between Digital Equipment Corp,
Intel and Xerox. Digital was first of the major manufacyurers to make
extensive use of ethernet for its networking (DECNET), clustering (SCS)
and later for terminal access (LAT).
In terms of Apple GUI and Xerox, it is my understanding that Jobs asked
Xerox if he could "Insipire" himself from their work, and they response
"sure, be my guest, we have no plans to ever use such useless thing" (or
something like that.
Note that the concept of a mouse predates Xerox by quite a number of years.
JF Mezei
>
> I repeat: My own personal experience in several mid-size to large
> European cities showed me traffic that was on par with that in any
> similar size American city.
Not sure if this is a valid point of comparison. (note the "not sure", I
am not accusing you of being wrong).
Being an a downtown core and seeing car congestion that may seem
comparable to Los Angeles downtown may not necessarily mean that car us
is as bad as in LA. You need to consider that a city without highways
will have all its cars on city streets, so what you see as a pedestrian
is 100% of traffic. But in LA, a pedestrian sees only a small portion of
the traffic since cars spend most fo the day on highways/freeways/whatever.
Note that Copenhagen is moving rapidly to reduce car use in downtown and
push for cycling. This is down to a point where street lights are
synchronised for cyclist speeds, so cars have no speed advantage over bikes.
Chris Blunt
<n...@bgdsv.co.uk> wrote:
>> This
>>
>> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003X8LXMU/ref=oss_product
>>
>> is the dog's b0llocks however for getting WIFI. Mine picks up more
>> unsecured wifi access points than I could possibly use, anywhere I go.
>> Just have to be slightly "covert" when using it, but it isn't that
>> directional and would work fine sitting in e.g. a backpack when you
>> are sitting in a cafe. It is very small and weighs nothing.
>
>That is built like a yagi aerial which certainly *should* be highly
>directional, though the beam part looks much too thick for the little
>elements mounted on it.
>The name and photos also suggest it puts out way more RF power than is legal
>which is pretty pointless since the hotspots you try to connect to are
>presumably only putting out the normal power and it achieves nothing if
>distant hotspots can hear receive you but you can't receive them.
Surely the whole point of having the yagi antenna is that the extra
gain it provides means you *can* receive them.
Chris
bj
>
> I repeat: My own personal experience in several mid-size to large
> European cities showed me traffic that was on par with that in any
> similar size American city.
One big difference, unless they've changed a lot in the past 30 years
(at least in Scandinavia) is that the cars aren't actively *trying* to
run down pedestrians. They actually *stop* for people in crosswalks.
Of course, when you come back home you nearly get yourself killed after
being so spoiled....
bj
Brian Gregory [UK]
news:bkgde6prv2nhbu5u4...@4ax.com...
But you don't also need to increase the power of your transmitter.
Bert Hyman
news:460578071311884133.028289...@news.giganews.co
m bj <addre...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Bert Hyman <be...@iphouse.com> wrote:
>>
>> I repeat: My own personal experience in several mid-size to large
>> European cities showed me traffic that was on par with that in any
>> similar size American city.
>
> One big difference, unless they've changed a lot in the past 30 years
> (at least in Scandinavia) is that the cars aren't actively *trying* to
> run down pedestrians. They actually *stop* for people in crosswalks.
Sure, but the bicyclists were more than willing to take up the slack.
Chris
> In message<4ce58269$0$22117$742e...@news.sonic.net>
> SMS<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/18/2010 7:30 AM, Salgud wrote:
>>> On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 06:06:30 -0800, SMS wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's the oil company law of supply and demand:
>>>>
>>>> "We have all the supply, so we can demand whatever the %$%& we want."
>>>
>>> Then explain to me why we pay less than $3/gal here, and gas is almost
>>> double that in most of Europe and Asia?
>
>> which help fund mass transit, among other things, not because the oil
>> companies there are charging more.
>
>> The best thing the U.S. could do to for the long-term health of the
>> economy would be to reduce oil imports by charging higher fuel taxes.
>
> The US lacks the transportation infrastructure to make up for the
> reduced trucking capacity that would arise from higher fuel rates.
> Increasing fuel costs in the US would raise the cost of nearly all
> goods, and especially impact food costs. In other words, increasing fuel
> taxes would screw the poor the most by screwing them twice.
>
> In fact, it's surprising the teabagger scum haven't proposed this.
>
> Europe has much better rail transport and more ports and a much smaller
> land area to cover. I don't think there's anywhere in Europe that is 500
> miles from a cost, much less 1,000.
>
The railroads are getting real busy in states taking traffic off the
trucks and having to add extra tracks and reopen closed lines. Reasons
behind this are better service from the railroads, road congestion, gas
prices and changes to drivers hours. A pity Europe did not carry as much
freight as the US does by railroad. Passenger rail is the complete
opposite between Europe and the US.
--
Chris
Your Name
"Robert Kent" <rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ic53pf$tfj$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> "Your Name" wrote in message news:ic51b2$3a0$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>>
>> innovative) when all the other companies simply make clone products by
>> stealing / badly copying Apple's own innovations.
>
> Many of Apple's ideas were stolen from others - mostly from Xerox.
>
> Xerox invented the concept of a GUI. Steve Jobs was invited to tour Xerox
> and he saw the Xerox Star on display. He took some notes and when back to
> Apple to create both the Lisa and the Mac.
>
> Xerox also invented page description languages (the mother of Postscript
and
> PDF) and Ethernet networking.
Oh dear. It's the same tired old nonsense yet again. :-\
Your Name
"nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:181120102336267903%nos...@nospam.invalid...
Microsoft stealing other people's ideas ... surely not?!? ;-)
Stealing, bullying and buying out are about the only things Microsoft is
"good" at doing, and once they get anything, they screw it up.
Your Name
"Michelle Steiner" <mich...@michelle.org> wrote in message
news:michelle-AA74E0...@62-183-169-81.bb.dnainternet.fi...
> In article <ic53pf$tfj$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Robert Kent" <rk...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Xerox invented the concept of a GUI. Steve Jobs was invited to tour
> > Xerox and he saw the Xerox Star on display. He took some notes and when
> > back to Apple to create both the Lisa and the Mac.
>
> Wrong. Xerox gave Apple the GUI in exchange for Apple stock. Oh, the
> concept of the menu bar and window controls was Apple's; the Xerox Star
> didn't have them.
You missed the nonsense about Postscript and PDF which has little / nothing
to do with Apple, but are an Adobe products.
Robert Kent
"Your Name" wrote in message news:ic6mnn$2jv$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
Looks like someone forgot to take her meds again :)
Your Name
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fk7hg98...@ethel.the.log...
Whatever you want to delude your self into believing. I can't be bnothered
argugin with numbnuts on the Internet.
Robert Kent
"Your Name" wrote in message news:ic6nf7$31k$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
----
Calm down, take a zoloft
Chris
minutes. The current version of this plan has 3G limited to 500M
otherwise the same and you get the bonus that Visual Voicemail works,
not available on other UK networks. iPhone Simplicity 12 month.
--
Chris
Doug Anderson
Ah. Another of those souls who hates it when people point out that he
is just making stuff up.
If you were in the US you could be in the Tea Party, which is more or
less built around people who like to invent their own facts.
Salgud
Not entirely true. They had a major innovation in the early days of DOS,
now affectionately remembered as the "640 K Barrier".
JF Mezei
> Not entirely true. They had a major innovation in the early days of DOS,
> now affectionately remembered as the "640 K Barrier".
Actually, this was very accidental. Someome made a mistake and, while
thinking about the limits on his 401k contributions, he mistakenly
entered "640k limit" in the document detailing the specs for the DOS
developpers, so the developpers set out to write DOS with a 640k limit.
:-)