Google Groups advanced search totally broken again
Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
<http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en&q=&hl=en&>
Fill in this:
with all of the words _________________________ [30 messages_]
[Sort by date_____] Google Search
with the exact phrase robert maas______________
Leave everything else unchanged from default, click "Google Search" button,
arrive here:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=&num=30&scoring=d&hl=en&as_epq=robert+maas&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=17&as_maxm=5&as_maxy=2008&safe=off>
It shows nothing more recent than March 11.
So for the moment I have no way to find recent mentions of my name
such as when people post followups to stuff I've posted recently.
Does anybody know of another search engine capable of searching all
the newsgroups to find followups to what I posted recently?
Normally it's not polite to ask for responses by e-mail, but with
no practical way to see followups on newsgroup, please e-mail if
you know of any such search engine currently working.
Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
> ...
> It shows nothing more recent than March 11.
Update:
The search that failed Friday night and Saturday:
Find messages
with all of the words _________________________ [30 messages_]
[Sort by date_____] Google Search
with the exact phrase robert maas______________
turning up nothing more recently than March 11, now turns up just
one article since March 11, namely the article complaining about
how Google Groups advanced search is broken. How ironic!
More strange results from GGas:
In Google Groups advanced search form:
<http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en&q=&hl=en&>
This search:
Find messages
with all of the words 260 north pastoria_______ [10 messages_]
[Sort by date_____] Google Search
with the exact phrase _________________________
turns up this article (third-most-recent):
<http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.depression/msg/91a50210cadb7c21?dmode=source>
which contains the text:
... parents forced us to move from Sylmar (14688 Nurmi)
to Sunnyvale (260 North Pastoria), ...
but this search:
Find messages
with all of the words _________________________ [10 messages_]
[Sort by date_____] Google Search
with the exact phrase 260 north pastoria_______
comes up empty:
Your search - - did not match any documents.
Suggestions:
- Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
- Try different keywords.
- Try more general keywords.
- Try fewer keywords.
- Try your search on Google Web Search.
but this search:
Find messages
with all of the words _________________________ [10 messages_]
[Sort by date_____] Google Search
with the exact phrase 14688 Nurmi______________
*does* turn up the missing article.
Why was I looking for that today? It occurred to me a week or two
ago that the telephone number at KKUP FM 91.5 in Cupertino, which
I've had an awful time remembering, starts with the same street
number where I used to live, except I wasn't sure I was remembering
it correctly, whether it was 260 or 360, so I did a Google search
to see where I might have mentionned it years ago when I still
remembered it more clearly.
ObNewUser: I'm not a new user, but I have a new-user type of
question: Is there currently any practical way to find all/most
recent followups to articles I've posted to newsgroups? With Google
Groups totally broken I'm like a new user desperately seeking some
way to find if anybody responded to anything I posted.
Kathy Morgan
wrote:
> ObNewUser: I'm not a new user, but I have a new-user type of
> question: Is there currently any practical way to find all/most
> recent followups to articles I've posted to newsgroups? With Google
> Groups totally broken I'm like a new user desperately seeking some
> way to find if anybody responded to anything I posted.
Some newsreaders will automatically tag messages that are followups to
your own messages. (Mine does, for example.) There may be an option
that will make it happen automagically, or you may need to set a filter
to tag messages that include <un1.3.C...@SpamGourmet.Com> in the
headers or body. What newsreader are you using?
--
Kathy
Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
> > question: Is there currently any practical way to find all/most
> > recent followups to articles I've posted to newsgroups? With Google
> > Groups totally broken I'm like a new user desperately seeking some
> > way to find if anybody responded to anything I posted.
> Some newsreaders will automatically tag messages that are followups to
> your own messages.
I've never known one that had that feature. I used to use 'rn' long
ago, but it was replaced by 'trn' which is too buggy so I stopped
using it. One additional problem with 'trn' is that I have no idea
how to configure it to allow me to set my own posting address each
time I post. On my current ISP, there are three NNTP servers, one
for local groups only and two for non-local groups only, and when I
switch 'trn' between local and non-local it spends a half hour
printing out the complete list of newsgroups it's deleting and
adding. It's just not worth the bother. So now my only effective
way to browse newsgroups is via Google Groups (or manually
TELNETting to a NNTP server and manually issuing GROUP and XHDR
commands, yuk).
> There may be an option that will make it happen automagically, or
> you may need to set a filter to tag messages that include
> <un1.3.CalRob...@SpamGourmet.Com> in the headers or body.
I don't know that such a feature is available.
> What newsreader are you using?
<http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en&q=&hl=en&>
Where both the exact-phrase and keywords have been broken for
weeks. "Robert Maas" doesn't find anything more recent than March,
except occasionally one or two recent articles which appear one day
then disappear the next. Specifically neither of these works:
Find messages
with all of the words _________________________ [30 messages_]
[Sort by date_____] Google Search
with the exact phrase Robert Maas______________
Find messages
with all of the words Robert Maas______________ [30 messages_]
[Sort by date_____] Google Search
with the exact phrase _________________________
But just about an hour ago I discovered this does work:
Find messages
with all of the words uh3t_____________________ [30 messages_]
[Sort by date_____] Google Search
with the exact phrase _________________________
It's weird that using 'uh3t' as a keyword finds articles that using
'Robert' and 'Maas' as keyword doesn't find.
I can't tell whether this works or not:
Find messages
with all of the words Maas_____________________ [30 messages_]
[Sort by date_____] Google Search
with the exact phrase _________________________
because it finds over a million matches, of which none of most
recent 30 are mine. Increasing the limit to 100 works but I have to
skip 42 screens full of false matches before I find the first
correct match, so it's not a useful way to find followups to what I
posted.
I suspect both exact-phrase and boolean-AND-of-keywords is totally
broken since a few weeks ago (retroactively since March) whereas
single keyword lookup still is working.
So anyway, using just the single keyword uh3t, I was able to find
twelve articles in recent weeks that mentionned that but which I
hadn't found before because I was looking for Robert Maas which
hasn't been working. Several other followups I already found by
accident when browsing the newsgroup and recognizing a thread title
and using the Tree View to find followups. So there are more than
twelve articles I couldn't find efficiently due to the
combined-keywords features broken, but only twelve that I didn't
find until just today because I didn't happen to discover them by
accident and I didn't try 'uh3t' as keyword until just today.
Oh, one thing that also still works is searching by author.
Unfortunately that finds articles I posted which haven't yet been
replied to, and does *not* find articles I posted more than a week
ago that somebody is finally responding to now, so it's not an
efficient way to find new followups by other people to stuff that I
posted previously.
Whiskers
On 2008-06-02,
Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t <m6d02a4.3...@spamgourmet.com>
wrote:
>> > ObNewUser: I'm not a new user, but I have a new-user type of
>> > question: Is there currently any practical way to find all/most
>> > recent followups to articles I've posted to newsgroups? With Google
>> > Groups totally broken I'm like a new user desperately seeking some
>> > way to find if anybody responded to anything I posted.
>> From: kmor...@spamcop.net (Kathy Morgan)
>> Some newsreaders will automatically tag messages that are followups to
>> your own messages.
>
> I've never known one that had that feature.
The simple approach is to put a consistant unique-to-you character string
into the Message-ID of each article you post, and use a news-reader which
allows you to 'score' or 'filter' or 'colour' all articles which have that
character string in the References header. Xnews (Windows only) does that
automatically by default, using a string based on the From email address
you set up (although you can use a different personal identifier if you
want to). Slrn can also insert the part of your email address to the left
of the @ symbol into the Message-ID, but you need to set up the scoring
manually if you want to use that to follow replies to your own posts. You
can also use a unique-to-you FQDN to the left of the @ sign in your
Message-IDs and filter or score on that in the same way. As you'll see
from my Message-IDs I do both, using slrn, and it works very well indeed.
Other news-readers I've tried which can at least use the FQDN trick are
Knode and Pan (both graphical Linux/Unix programs) but I'm sure there are
others.
Another approach is to keep a local list of the Message-ID of each of the
articles you post and use that to track responses. I think that's a
rather clumsy approach but there may well be usenet clients out there that
use it.
Most news-readers have some way to 'watch' or 'highlight' threads you want
to follow, which would presumably include those to which you have posted.
> I used to use 'rn' long
> ago, but it was replaced by 'trn' which is too buggy so I stopped
> using it. One additional problem with 'trn' is that I have no idea
> how to configure it to allow me to set my own posting address each
> time I post. On my current ISP, there are three NNTP servers, one
> for local groups only and two for non-local groups only, and when I
> switch 'trn' between local and non-local it spends a half hour
> printing out the complete list of newsgroups it's deleting and
> adding. It's just not worth the bother.
I've never used trn so I can't comment on that, but there are newsreaders
which can handle muiltiple servers more effectively than that. Almost all
of them, I suspect! Can't trn use multiple newsrc files and have the user
specify in the command line which one to use (one for each server)?
Using a local proxy news-server such as Leafnode allows you to consolidate
multiple upstream servers into a single feed for your local client(s) (and
telnet, of course).
> So now my only effective
> way to browse newsgroups is via Google Groups (or manually
> TELNETting to a NNTP server and manually issuing GROUP and XHDR
> commands, yuk).
[...]
Using a more recent and 'feature rich' newsreader than trn is a better
option than that, surely? Of the console-based Unix/Linux newsreaders, I
suggest that you look at Tin, Gnus (emacs), and slrn.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
> The simple approach is to put a consistant unique-to-you
> character string into the Message-ID of each article you post,
I already do that: rem-<year><month><dom>-<3digitnumber>@yahoo.com
So a regular expression would find exactly my articles.
OK, that's not exactly what you said.
You said string, not regular expression.
Am I close enough?
Since I started using this message-ID system after 2000,
I could use the string "rem-200" to satisfy exactly your spec.
It might get a few false matches, but probably not too many.
> and use a news-reader which allows you to 'score' or 'filter' or
> 'colour' all articles which have that character string in the
> References header.
That's the hard part. Does Google Groups (groups.google.com) have
that feature? Does any newsreader on FreeBSD Unix have that
feature?
> Another approach is to keep a local list of the Message-ID of
> each of the articles you post and use that to track responses.
So how do I create such a list in the first place, for all the
articles I ever posted since I started posting to newsgroups around
1992, or even for all the articles I posted within the past several
months that are most likely to get new followups?
And even if I can set up such a list initially, how do I add to it
each time I make a new posting without making any mistakes??
> Most news-readers have some way to 'watch' or 'highlight' threads
> you want to follow, which would presumably include those to which
> you have posted.
How would I initialize such a list of threads, either all the way
back to 1992, or just all the threads I've posted to within the
past several months?
And once initialized, how would I update the list each time I post
to a new thread, without ever making a mistake?
Anyway, for the time being I'm getting by by searching for 'uh3t'
and then using tree mode to find anything that is directly under my
own ID and more recent than the last time I checked. I've gotten
very practiced at looking at the index number from tree view,
memorizing it for the moment, clicking on the link, then manually
keying the search to find that index number among the group of ten.
Whiskers
>> From: Whiskers <catwhee...@operamail.com>
>> The simple approach is to put a consistant unique-to-you
>> character string into the Message-ID of each article you post,
>
> I already do that: rem-<year><month><dom>-<3digitnumber>@yahoo.com
> So a regular expression would find exactly my articles.
> OK, that's not exactly what you said.
> You said string, not regular expression.
> Am I close enough?
Pretty close. I've never tried to use a regex or anything of the sort for
that task, but it might work.
> Since I started using this message-ID system after 2000,
> I could use the string "rem-200" to satisfy exactly your spec.
> It might get a few false matches, but probably not too many.
>
>> and use a news-reader which allows you to 'score' or 'filter' or
>> 'colour' all articles which have that character string in the
>> References header.
>
> That's the hard part. Does Google Groups (groups.google.com) have
> that feature?
No.
> Does any newsreader on FreeBSD Unix have that
> feature?
Yes; it's a pretty basic feature. I use slrn, and I'm sure Tin and Gnus
can do it too. Of the graphical clients, Pan and Knode can do it and I
expect others can too (but not Thunderbird, as far as I know). Those are
all Unix/Linux programs, which you could compile on your own system easily
enough if there isn't a pre-compiled package for FreeBSD (but they're
widely used so there may well be).
>> Another approach is to keep a local list of the Message-ID of
>> each of the articles you post and use that to track responses.
>
> So how do I create such a list in the first place, for all the
> articles I ever posted since I started posting to newsgroups around
> 1992, or even for all the articles I posted within the past several
> months that are most likely to get new followups?
Creating a historical database isn't practical, in my opinion, and in
normal circumstances it would be a matter for the client you use to
maintain the list if that's the approach taken by that client. That would
only work for articles posted using that installation of that client, of
course, which could be a drawback to that approach explaining why it isn't
commonplace.
> And even if I can set up such a list initially, how do I add to it
> each time I make a new posting without making any mistakes??
Software does it not the human.
>> Most news-readers have some way to 'watch' or 'highlight' threads
>> you want to follow, which would presumably include those to which
>> you have posted.
>
> How would I initialize such a list of threads, either all the way
> back to 1992, or just all the threads I've posted to within the
> past several months?
Historically, you wouldn't.
> And once initialized, how would I update the list each time I post
> to a new thread, without ever making a mistake?
Software.
> Anyway, for the time being I'm getting by by searching for 'uh3t'
> and then using tree mode to find anything that is directly under my
> own ID and more recent than the last time I checked. I've gotten
> very practiced at looking at the index number from tree view,
> memorizing it for the moment, clicking on the link, then manually
> keying the search to find that index number among the group of ten.
That's horribly laborious and unreliable. Why don't you try out some
proper news-readers?
Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
I posted only one (1) previous article under this address, and that
*one* article got harvested by a Nigerian spammer, who then sent me
a spam to this address. (Fortunately I discovered it before a
second spam was sent to it:) As a result, I've shut down this
address so that I won't get any more spam via this address. Any
e-mail sent to this address will be accepted by the server then
just discarded without any non-delivery notice. That's why I'm
posting this warning, just in case somebody saw any of my articles
just now and wants to reply to me privately If anybody wants to
send private e-mail to me regarding anything I've posted, you'll
have to look around to find some other variant address that I
haven't yet disabled, or go to my Web site and click on "Contact
me".
As of a few days ago, Yahoo! Mail no longer provides any way to see
full headers of spam that comes in, so that's why the info isn't
included here. Previous recent Nigerian 419 spam of the same type
came from an IP number owned by Egyptian University, with a dropbox
at HotMail. Obviously neither Egypt nor MicroSoft is doing anything
to stop such spam.
Today in fact I received six spam, using four newly-harvested
SpamGourmet forwarding addresses, all of which I've now shut down:
m6d02a4.3...@spamgourmet.com
lisp1.3....@spamgourmet.com
un1.3.c...@spamgourmet.com
un1.3.c...@spamgourmet.com
usenet2.3...@spamgourmet.com
usenet2.3...@spamgourmet.com
-
Nobody in their right mind likes spammers, nor their automated assistants.
To open an account here, you must demonstrate you're not one of them.
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Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
> > feature?
> Yes; it's a pretty basic feature. I use slrn, and I'm sure Tin
> and Gnus can do it too.
% whereis slrn
slrn: /usr/local/bin/slrn /usr/local/man/man1/slrn.1.gz
% whereis Tin
Tin:
% whereis Gnus
Gnus:
% whereis tin
tin: /usr/local/bin/tin /usr/local/man/man1/tin.1.gz
% whereis gnus
gnus:
So which of those two can be easily configured to have the header
that I want, including all these custom fields?
Path: From: Organization: Errors-To: X-Spam-This:
> Those are all Unix/Linux programs, which you could compile on
> your own system easily enough if there isn't a pre-compiled package
> for FreeBSD (but they're widely used so there may well be).
I don't have any available disk space for compiling my own copy.
I'm limited to what the sysadmin already installed.
> >> Another approach is to keep a local list of the Message-ID of
> >> each of the articles you post and use that to track responses.
> > So how do I create such a list in the first place, for all the
> > articles I ever posted since I started posting to newsgroups around
> > 1992, or even for all the articles I posted within the past several
> > months that are most likely to get new followups?
> Creating a historical database isn't practical, in my opinion,
> and in normal circumstances it would be a matter for the client you
> use to maintain the list if that's the approach taken by that
> client. That would only work for articles posted using that
> installation of that client, of course, which could be a drawback
> to that approach explaining why it isn't commonplace.
Which would make that approach pretty much useless for my needs.
> > And even if I can set up such a list initially, how do I add to it
> > each time I make a new posting without making any mistakes??
> Software does it not the human.
There would need to be an automated way to build the historical
list of everything I ever posted since 1992, in order to check
whether somebody has belatedly responded to any of it, then as you
say the new posting method would maintain that list with new
articles I post now. That doesn't look at all practical.
The best I can do now, for directly finding followups, is use
Google to search for all recent mention of 'uh3t', which will find
nearly any recent followup to anything I posted since 2004.Sep.25
and some as far back as 2003.Nov.16 when I first posted about that
tiny url. (It won't find a followup where somebody quoted my name
but omitted my tiny url.) Given the royal pain of trying to find
followups to stuff I posted before then, that seems a reasonably
decent cost/effectiveness trade-off.
If I were to build a historical list of *my* articles, all of them,
instead of just followups, I'd search for uh3t in the Author field,
and I'd need to break the search into sections by date to avoid
overflowing the 100-article maximum limit. Writing the software to
submit hundreds of date-range searches, collect and parse the HTML
returns, and harvest the message-IDs of all such articles, would be
too much trouble for me at this time. Do you know any software that
has already been written to do all that work, or do you know a
Google Groups feature that achieves the same end result (much more
efficiently, directly from their internal database, no need to
submit searches and parse them)?
> >> Most news-readers have some way to 'watch' or 'highlight' threads
> >> you want to follow, which would presumably include those to which
> >> you have posted.
> > How would I initialize such a list of threads, either all the way
> > back to 1992, or just all the threads I've posted to within the
> > past several months?
> Historically, you wouldn't.
Then how would it be of any value in finding recent followups to
stuff I posted weeks or months before I switched to your proposed
new way of doing things?? It sounds like if I switched, I'd *still*
need to use Google Groups to search for new followups to stuff I
posted before the switch, and *also* use the new system, and
somehow eliminate duplicates between the two systems. That sounds
like more of a pain than just doing things the way I do them now
suffering bugs in Google from time to time.
> > Anyway, for the time being I'm getting by by searching for 'uh3t'
> > and then using tree mode to find anything that is directly under my
> > own ID and more recent than the last time I checked. I've gotten
> > very practiced at looking at the index number from tree view,
> > memorizing it for the moment, clicking on the link, then manually
> > keying the search to find that index number among the group of ten.
> That's horribly laborious and unreliable. Why don't you try out
> some proper news-readers?
Laborious and unreliable compared to what??? You offer no
alternative that will find recent articles that are followups to
stuff I posted days or weeks or months ago.
-
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To open an account here, you must demonstrate you're not one of them.
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Whiskers
[...]
>> > Anyway, for the time being I'm getting by by searching for 'uh3t'
>> > and then using tree mode to find anything that is directly under my
>> > own ID and more recent than the last time I checked. I've gotten
>> > very practiced at looking at the index number from tree view,
>> > memorizing it for the moment, clicking on the link, then manually
>> > keying the search to find that index number among the group of ten.
>>
>> That's horribly laborious and unreliable. Why don't you try out
>> some proper news-readers?
>
> Laborious and unreliable compared to what??? You offer no
> alternative that will find recent articles that are followups to
> stuff I posted days or weeks or months ago.
[...]
The longer you defer starting to use a sensible approach, the greater will
be the number of articles you post which you can't find follow-ups to with
ease. Only you can change that. You have the means at your disposal.
There is no easy way to look for responses made today to articles you
posted years ago - but how many such responses do you get? Google doesn't
allow posting of responses to articles older than 60 days
<http://groups.google.co.uk/support/bin/answer.py?answer=46488&topic=9253>
and few people using normal news-readers and news-servers will do so
either - even if those old articles are still available to them to respond
to. However, once you establish a form of MID that contains a
unique-to-you (and unchanging) element, any decent news-reader will be
able to bring responses to those articles to your attention when you use
it to read the newsgroup concerned. Google doesn't do that, and probably
never will.
Whiskers
>> > Does any newsreader on FreeBSD Unix have that
>> > feature?
>> From: Whiskers <catwhee...@operamail.com>
>> Yes; it's a pretty basic feature. I use slrn, and I'm sure Tin
>> and Gnus can do it too.
>
> % whereis slrn
> slrn: /usr/local/bin/slrn /usr/local/man/man1/slrn.1.gz
> % whereis Tin
> Tin:
> % whereis Gnus
> Gnus:
> % whereis tin
> tin: /usr/local/bin/tin /usr/local/man/man1/tin.1.gz
> % whereis gnus
> gnus:
>
> So which of those two can be easily configured to have the header
> that I want, including all these custom fields?
> Path: From: Organization: Errors-To: X-Spam-This:
[...]
Path is not a customisable field; it's inserted by the news-servers
through which the article passes from poster to reader. From and
Organisation are capable of being customised using any news-reader
software I've ever used (indeed, customising of them is more or less
essential if anyone is to know who posted what!). The other two would be
"custom headers" which can certainly be inserted automatically by slrn,
and probably by Tin, and can always be inserted manually or automatically
by the editor used to compose an article.
The Message-ID header, which is the one you should customise to make
replies to your own aricles easy to find, can be customised by slrn and I
expect by Tin too - ask in news.software.readers if you can't fathom out
the possibilities from the documentation and sample config files your
system admin should have installed along with the software provided.
Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
> Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 22:56:24 -0700
> From: ggbrok1.5...@SpamGourmet.Com (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t)
> [Sort by date_____] Google Search
> Leave everything else unchanged from default, click "Google Search" button,
> arrive here:
> <http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=&num=30&scoring=d&hl=en&as_epq=robert+maas&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=17&as_maxm=5&as_maxy=2008&safe=off>
> such as when people post followups to stuff I've posted recently.
Update1:
> Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:25:20 -0700
> From: m6d02a4.3...@spamgourmet.com (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t)
> <http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en&q=&hl=en&>
> Where both the exact-phrase and keywords have been broken for
> weeks. "Robert Maas" doesn't find anything more recent than March,
> except occasionally one or two recent articles which appear one day
> then disappear the next. ...
> But just about an hour ago I discovered this does work:
> Find messages
> with all of the words uh3t_____________________ [30 messages_]
> [Sort by date_____] Google Search
> with the exact phrase _________________________
> So anyway, using just the single keyword uh3t, I was able to find
> twelve articles in recent weeks that mentionned that but which I
> hadn't found before because I was looking for Robert Maas which
> hasn't been working. ...
Update 2 (not posted until now):
I checked several more times over the weeks, but two-word search
was still broken for both "all these words" and "exact phrase" in
the advanced-search form. So I continued to use "uh3t" single term
as my only halfway-efficient means to find followups to what I had
posted.
Update 3 (new):
A few days ago exact phrase was working again. I don't know how
long it was from my previous check when it still wasn't working
yet, until my check found it working again. Nobody e-mailed me to
tell me "it's now working", so it was just chance that I tried it
again and found it finally working again. So now I'm going all the
way back to around May.11-13 when I last used it before it stopped
working, to find articles that mentionned "Robert Maas" which is
findable but failed to mention "uh3t" so the articles were *not*
findable until it got fixed. I'm finding articles as far back as
May.11 that I never saw until now because nobody mentionned "uh3t"
in the thread during the whole time it was broken. So if somebody
sees me suddenly reply to something posted nearly a month and a
half ago, with a pointer to this article (without explanation),
this is the explanation posted *once* here to avoid duplication.
-
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